Author Topic: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim  (Read 30694 times)

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Offline Sushi

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Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
I haven't played any of the Elder Scrolls games, but I have to admit, this one is looking pretty awesome.

 
Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
There's no pleasing some people.

So because I don't like the crap Bethesda has been putting out over the last few years, "There's no pleasing me?"  I have a whole shelf-full of games that I enjoy quite a great deal, including some from your list of western RPGs.  I'll even concede that Morrowind, despite a journal system that makes it all-too-easy to lose active quests, was pretty enjoyable.  Oblivion, by contrast, was a pretty world, inhabited by lifeless characters and a truly pathetic story, and Fallout 3 was about as far askew of the rest of the Fallout series as one could get, whilst abducting the name for an obvious cash-in.

Those two games were both marketed to death, with the tagline that, "We're going to get right everything we got wrong with the previous game(s)!"  Then, come release day, lo and behold, it'd turn out that they had been so focused on minutia that they entirely missed the big picture.  What's the big idea behind a role-playing game?  The player takes on the role of a character in a story.  When the characters are lifeless and the story is senseless, the rest of the game doesn't much matter.

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If the previews are accurate...

...and I hold that Bethesda has a worse habit of building up hype and failing to deliver than Peter Molyneux.  As Battuta said, it's best to consider previews of Bethesda's games as being naught but lies, until the game is released to demonstrate otherwise.

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If you compare Oblivion/Morrowind/Fallout 3 to other western RPG/FPS-RPGs, they're in the company of Mass Effect, STALKER, Dragon Age, KOTOR, System Shock 2, and Deus Ex.  None of those are bad games.

Those games may be in the same/a similar genre, but they're not in the same league.  Certainly, the more recent titles on your second list were more stable at launch, and each was more well supported by the developers throughout its life than Oblivion or Fallout 3.  Even Shadow of Chernobyl, which was pretty hideously buggy at release, is in a state now, where I can install, patch, and play, without having to work around game-breaking bugs.  In Fallout 3, by contrast, all I have to do is go free-roaming too far in one direction, and suddenly I've skipped about five major plot points, on the way to saving Liam Neeson*.  Every game on your second list managed a more appropriate number of voice actors than did Oblivion or Fallout 3, and in most cases (Deus Ex being the notable exception) those voice actors turned in a more convincing performance than their counterparts at Bethesda.  Coupled with better writing across the board, that whole second list was just better at making the player feel like a character in a living world.

* - ...and I just realized that you're saving Liam Neeson from having to play a Bethesda-developed video game, within a Bethesda-developed video game.  Unintentional irony?

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There are some bugs in all of those, over-hyped features, and underwhelming gameplay elements.  Bethesda does some things extremely well (show me someone who does completely free-roaming RPG-oriented gameplay better, because I can't think of anyone), and other things less well, same as everyone else.

Unfortunately, what I find Bethesda does really well is produce beautiful screenshots and bafflingly effective marketing.  Maybe their current team is better suited to other genres, but their most recent entries into the RPG genre have focused way too much on visuals and implementing gimmicks (which is exactly what the fully-voice-acted claim has been to-date) and not nearly enough on a coherent plot or plausible character development.

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I'm really tired of all the RAH RAH BETHESDA SUCKS BECAUSE OF X RAH RAH.  It just sounds tired.

It recurs every couple of years as the marketing effect from their previous release wears off.  That's usually right around the time people start reinstalling the game for another playthrough and realize that, when you have to spend hours downloading MODs to fix the broken bugs and balance the broken gameplay mechanics**, the game probably wasn't worth the price originally paid.  A little late, by that point, but it's a lesson learned.

** - Before you compare this to spending hours to download FreeSpace Open and the MediaVPs, remember that the retail game had several years of life in it, before the SCP and FSU teams got to sink their claws into FS2's code and content.  Moreover, it's perfectly possible to install, patch, and play retail FS2 and have an enjoyable, bug-free experience.

Of course, that's also why for Oblivion, Fallout 3, and now Skyrim, every Bethesda marketing campaign has begun with, "We've fixed what was wrong in the previous game!  (No, really!)"  They can't ever promise more of the same, because the status quo for Bethesda is to release a product that most would consider unacceptable, but with enough pre-release hype, they can cloud their consumers' vision to that fact.  To contrast this to Dragon Age, Bioware had to bend over backwards to convince people that nothing had changed between Origins and DA2 (when clearly quite a lot had), because even after having had time to reflect on the title, people wanted another game similar to Origins.

So, yeah.  Bethesda sucks because they are a game development house that makes bad games.  If they start making quality games again, I'll stop saying they suck.  If they make a habit of making good games, I might even start buying their games again.  If Skyrim sucks, then the next time they're hyping a new game, I'll probably poke my head in and remind you that (nearly) everything they said about Skyrim was bull****, just like I poked my head in here to remind you that (nearly) everything they said about Oblivion and Fallout 3 was bull****.

Oh, and RAH RAH.  I guess that was somehow obligatory.

 

Offline Zacam

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Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

I'm sort of with BlueFlames on this.

And I -like- Bethesda. I want to like them more, but they keep breaking my patience. While Morrowind is not as technically advanced an achievement as Oblivion or Fallout 3, there was LESS chance of Morrowind breaking on you for no good reason. And hey, we cut them breaks on anything that was goofy because we could, because it was new and because we had the tools. And more importantly, we used those tools to mostly create NEW (or replacement) content for their game, not fix it for them. Even with Tribunal and Bloodmoon releases and the subsequent Game of the Year edition, there was still a uniformity to them and a much better polish.

(Granted, I do have to say that loading up a brand new game and having Auto-Activation on Tribunal and Bloodmoon quests from the get go was pretty disturbing, but hey, it was a first and that was easily sorted, if not officially, then by fans. But it still din't -break- everything under the sun. And I wasn't a big fan of addons that needed Tribunal and Bloodmoon activated, even though they touched areas relevant to neither of them, just to take advantage of new ESM data, but again easily (if cumbersomely) fixable.)

And yes, it had quest trigger activation issues sometimes. Or other oddities. And back then, Bethesda cared more about hearing about them. They engaged "Fix" addon makers in the forums and made Patches. Granted, not -all- of the issues ever got addressed. But simply put, with or without Tribunal/Bloodmoon, you can install Morrowind, Patch (and if you are  so inclined, add the Unofficial "Patch") and Play. And then the only thing you have to worry about was conflicting addons if you had any, which was also easily solvable in many cases.

Now we come to Oblivion. Larger team. More involved people. Great community feedback on the do's and don'ts, likes and dislikes from Morrowind and the biggest thing they had going for it was Lip-Sync'd Voice Acting. Which doesn't help the stale conversations, the cardboard "population" or the over-abundantly detailed nothing that is the landscape. And even more buggy Quest triggers and Activations than Original Morrowind (much less GotY, pre-Patched). Inconsistencies in model texture/mesh and behaviours, still saran-wrapping spell effects and and total over-use of Bloom (or HDR if you were not on an ATI card, or if you were, you had to have the Chuck patch or kiss your game into a slideshow at the first Oblivion Gate) to make things look good because honestly, it all only looked "fairly decent" without it. Shivering Isles introduced a few issues, but nothing quite as damaging to them as what would later happen in

Fallout 3. I don't even know where to start. I love this game, but it's also the straw that made me finally hang up my coat in the Bethesda modding community. And that was BEFORE the tripe shenanigans of their DLC's came out and made it even MORE unnecessarily complex and frustrating. The Unofficial Patch for FO3 is larger than the one for Oblivion and Morrowind combined. And this was an engine they should have already been PERFECTLY familiar with due to Oblivion. And even with Oblivion's problems, it netted them enough of a profit that the FO3 team was as large if not maybe bigger than the Oblivion Team was, so what is the excuse for the amount of issues and poor DLC treatment? None what so ever, but they exist none-the-less.

And while New Vegas is not strictly ENTIRELY their fault, they have responsibility to make sure when they hand an IP over to be worked on that it at least meets the same Quality set by the preceding releases in the franchise. And they failed UTTERLY in accomplishing that.

I want to hope that maybe, just maybe, they may have finally actually gotten it right for Skyrim. I'll be buying regardless of whether they do or not because issues aside, I -like- evolving game engines and the things that can be done with them. I'm just sick and tired of the Community tools being more for fixing their mistakes that should have been ironed out in QA. But I'm -NOT_ going to believe until I have it, and I'm most certainly NOT going to hold my breath or berate anybody that is skeptical that Skyrim is going to live up to it's hype. Why? Three turns of phrase come to mind: "Fool me once, shame on me." "Once bitten, twice shy" and "Burned once, beats burned out"
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 02:51:44 am by Zacam »
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
While I'm all for skepticism regarding the hype (nowhere have I had a problem with that; it's when people descend to unadulterated bashing that I've spoken up), there is a lot of griping going on that really surprises me.

I have yet - despite, as I said, spending 100+ hours in each game - to find a problem that actually, irreparably, broke the game.  Maybe they existed on first release (generally I've waited until 8-12 months after release to play most new games), but they certainly haven't when I've taken my first run.  Bugs galore, sure - but again (and no one has spoken up yet) - who actually manages a completely free-roaming massive RPG better than Bethesda?

We're all comparing them to BioWare, themselves, or a few smaller or defunct/repurposed operations (Irrational / Looking Glass).  I might be more upset if I had another gold standard to point to and say "do it like them!" but we really don't.  Not that I don't seriously <3 BioWare (because I do), but their games lack the open mechanics of Bethesda's.  Yeah, they're a great experience but BioWare doesn't do "freedom" in software (nor should they; that's not their genre; incidentally, their QA/QC on the original Mass Effect was on par with Bethesda's in Oblivion).  Yeah, I'd love every manufacturer to have Valve's QA/QC ethic, but that also might bring about Valve's release schedule and nobody - I repeat, nobody - wants that for the whole industry.

Could they do better?  Absolutely.  And yes, we need to take all the hype with a massive box of salt.  But to say Bethesda, or any of their titles, suck is serious exaggeration.  I don't know many people who bought Morrowind, or Oblivion, or Fallout 3 and promptly uninstalled them (and by many, I mean zero) because they "sucked."  The vast majority played them as is and patiently waited for patches (or unofficial patches, on which the community has done an amazing job) and continued playing them.  That doesn't equate with the assertion that Bethesda makes "bad" or "sucky" games.  Buggy, poorly-tested, and slowly patched, absolutely... but that doesn't make a game bad.

For a bad game, I refer you to Zero Punctuation, because Ben says it so much better than I do =)
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Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
I actually wholly agree with what Zero Punctation says on Oblivion and Fallout 3... But that is not such a  a good thing as you make it sound.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/75-Oblivion
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 02:06:55 pm by -Joshua- »

 
Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
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I don't know many people who bought Morrowind, or Oblivion, or Fallout 3 and promptly uninstalled them

I got one playthrough each out of Oblivion and Fallout 3 (with their final official patches, mind you), prior to uninstalling.  They each individually held the record for shortest-time-installed on one of my computers, with Fallout 3 still retaining that dubious honor.  The only reason I got a full playthrough of Oblivion was to try to figure out where all of the Morrowind magic had gone.  Fallout 3 gave a strong first-impression, which started to fall apart after leaving the Vault.  I got to the end of FO3, constantly hoping that the feel of playing a first-person Fallout game could be recaptured at some point, but the game just kept travelling further and further down the path to bat****-crazytown, until finally, it arrived at an ending so terrible that Bethesda eventually gave up defending it and just retconned it (if you were willing to pump another ten dollars into the steaming pile of crap, anyway).

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who actually manages a completely free-roaming massive RPG better than Bethesda?

Maybe the better question is, "Does a large, free-roaming world actually benefit the RPG genre?"

The free-roaming concept worked for Red Faction - Guerilla, Dead Rising, and Just Cause, because it provided more opportunity for the player to smash stuff, kill zombies, and murder South Americans - the main draws of each of these games.  In RFG, rolling a tank into an EDF fortress is more fun, when you get to flatten all of the EDF checkpoints on the way, instead of having a loading screen before cutting directly to the fortress.  Something was gained by modelling a large, traversable world.  When the EDF get pissed with the Red Faction and begin shelling Dust, it's not seen in a cutscene of a pre-rendered city being blasted, but from the ground level, as the player evacuates key people and material from the town.  Something was gained by modelling the large, traversable world.  The list goes on.

What did Oblivion gain by having a large, free-roaming world?  You met more people, each with one of three voices.  Having a large, traversable world highlighted a shortcoming of the game.  You got to explore hundreds of dungeons, which were actually all carbon copies of about three unique dungeons.  Again, the open world highlighted a shortcoming of the game.  Intrepid explorers could accidentally stumble on elements of the main quest, not meant to be encountered until much, much later.  This issue likely wouldn't have existed at all, if not for the open world.

More broadly, what is there to be gained by having an RPG world more open than, say, Baldur's Gate II's, one that allowed some freedom to travel, without the need to model every cubic inch of dirt in Amn?  I'll grant, it is easier to feel a part of the world, if it is all physically modelled, but it can't just be dead space and random encounters between destinations.  An open world is something nice to have in an RPG, but it requires a great deal of time and effort to be invested.  If that investment isn't made, then the openness of the world becomes a liability, as it did in Oblivion.  Even if that investment is made, it cannot come at the expense of the quality of the narrative, or you still wind up with a bad RPG, like Fallout 3.

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Buggy, poorly-tested, and slowly patched, absolutely... but that doesn't make a game bad.

Really?  That seemed sufficient to damn Ultima IX as a critical failure and bury the franchise.  I don't recall Vampire - Bloodlines being an enormous success.  Shadow of Chernobyl was given amazing post-release support by the developers, and it still wasn't a blockbuster game, on account of its buggy release.

I'd say that shoddy development, especially when coupled with lackluster post-release support amount to several nails in a game's coffin, without a marketting behemoth like Zenimax stapling flyers to every forehead in America, in the hopes that they can sell loads of copies before word gets out about the game being a steaming pile of crap.

A non-Bethesda example:  Outpost (1).  This game sold on the merit of a glowing review in PC Gamer, accompanied by one of their highest scores to-date.  The problem was that PC Gamer reviewed the game, while it was still in beta, and assumed that all of the promised features and bugfixes would be in place by the time the final game was released.  Unfortunately, the publisher moved up the release date, and the beta version that was shown to PC Gamer was released in that very state, with none of the promised bugfixes or features implemented.  The result was a strategy game, in which there was no real objective, colonies could spontaneously die off, and two-thirds of the tech tree did absolutely nothing.  The game got patched once (though being patched at all was a rarity at the time) to fix a few crash bugs, but the show-stopping colony-die-off was not addressed, and the unimplemented features were never added.  It sold like hotcakes, though, because it got good early press.

Of course, the gaming press isn't quite that naive anymore, so direct marketting has to substitute for a review based on promises.  Still, professional critics seem to get swept away by the hype as well, as they too are in a pattern of lavishing praise upon Bethesda's games, only to pan them, two years after the criticism can do any good.

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For a bad game, I refer you to Zero Punctuation, because Ben says it so much better than I do =)

I will point out that the video to which you linked highlights three open-world games widely considered better than Oblivion or Fallout 3, since you keep asking for examples.  Also, as -Joshua- pointed out, Yahtzee has expressed little fondness for Bethesda's post-Morrowind offerings.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
So now we've moved to the part where Bethesda makes bad games because you say they are bad, or Bethesda makes generally good games because I say they are good, have we?

Nothing either of us has said is based on anything objective.  What you seem to think are major problems I tend to view as minor (and easily avoided or fixed) issues.  I really don't see this inane back-and-forth going anywhere (except maybe another two pages until we both cease out of sheer can't-be-arsedness).  I'd love to talk about free world mechanics (and how badly they're implemented outside of the RPG genre), but I reached my can't-be-arsed phase two pages early today.

Regardless, my point was that - while skepticism of marketing hype is perfectly legitimate - complete disregard for a new Bethesda title is unwarranted.  You seem to feel otherwise.  More power to you.  As for me, I think Skyrim looks promising, and the tirades about Bethesda just sound - as I said before - tired.

As for ZP, neither FO3 or Oblivion was slammed as a "bad game" - which is my point.  There are quantifiable, tangible facts that shove a game from the "could have done better, but good effort" category down to that one (absence/incomprehensibility of a story; so crash-prone and buggy as to be unplayable, game mechanics that are so frustrating to use that they lead you directly to the uninstall button, etc).  I don't think Bethesda's games are there - and judging from the fact that you actually finished them, neither do you.
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Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
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I don't think Bethesda's games are there - and judging from the fact that you actually finished them, neither do you.

While I'm willing to agree to disagree on the larger point, don't presume to know my opinion better than I do.  I've had enough respect for you in this exchange to not say, "You think Bethesda's games suck too, but you're in fanboy-denial!"

As I said, no game has spent less time on the hard drive of one of my computers than Oblivion or Fallout 3.  I've given multiple playthroughs to some pretty mediocre games, but Oblivion and Fallout 3 were awful enough that I couldn't stomach attempting multiple runs.  I do like to approach a game with an open mind and judge the game as a whole, and to me, that means a full playthrough, whether the beginning/middle are brilliant or crap.  So yes, I soldiered through the dreck that was Oblivion and Fallout 3.  The only games I own that I haven't finished are the ones that were simply too difficult to finish, and you'll note that I've been calling Bethesda's recent games bad, not hard.

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As for ZP, neither FO3 or Oblivion was slammed as a "bad game" - which is my point.

From his Oblivion review:  "Conversely, a lack of immersion can be a dog**** bullet, right between the eyes.  ...  Oblivion is one of the least immersive RPGs I've ever played."  To me, suggesting that a game has taken a "dog**** bullet, right between the eyes," is a more interesting way to say that the game is bad than dryly saying, "This is a bad game."

 

Offline Nemesis6

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Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Where Oblivion and Fallout 3 shine is the modding scene. If there's something you don't like, there's most likely a mod to fix it, likewise if there's something you think the game needs, like better graphics or more locations.

 
Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
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I'd love to talk about free world mechanics (and how badly they're implemented outside of the RPG genre),

STAAAAALKEEEER!!!!

There, I said it :P.

The problem I simply have with the oblivion and fallout games is a lack of focus: Sure, there's a lot to do, but the stuff that's there to do is quite boring and repetitve. There's some good bits, but they are few and far between.

Where Oblivion and Fallout 3 shine is the modding scene. If there's something you don't like, there's most likely a mod to fix it, likewise if there's something you think the game needs, like better graphics or more locations.

Meh. Mods do not fix the story or the characters... Well. Okay. There's one mod I know that actually fixed the entire story of a certain expansion pack, but that is quite the exception.

 

Offline Topgun

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Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTURc3Fv8Xs

Ill just leave this here

Spoiler:
4:30 and onward has dragons

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Dragons confirmed for new Oblivion Gates

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
At least they move, done't dick up the landscape after they're dead, and give you magic. :P

As opposed to they give you magic for the Oblivion Gates.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
At least they move, done't dick up the landscape after they're dead, and give you magic. :P

As opposed to they give you magic for the Oblivion Gates.

They only dick up the landscape while they're alive?
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
That tower was indeed pretty phallic

 
Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
At least they move, done't dick up the landscape after they're dead, and give you magic. :P

As opposed to they give you magic for the Oblivion Gates.

As well as looking to be quite a bit more fun than your average Oblivion gate slog. I'm still looking forward to closing in on some unique beasty on the tundra and having a Dragon come out of nowhere and **** me outta cool loot, though.

 
Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
I predict that one of the first mods for Skyrim will involve the dragon's power in relation to the player.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
I predict that one of the first mods for Skyrim will involve the dragon's power in relation to the player.

Let's be honest, the first mod for Skyrim will give the ogres giant dicks.

 
Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
I'm looking forward to the multitude of poorly implemented Dragon-Riding mods.

 

Offline Nemesis6

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Re: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Listening to what the person playing(whoever he is, I didn't really pay attention) said about how you could be anybody seems like a half-truth. As I understand, you're locked in the role of that "Dragonborn" guy, so any branching is just weapon and skill-wise.