Author Topic: On storing stuff other than project files  (Read 22702 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
That happened once and I really, really wanted to help the guy. PMing you guys definitely would've been the right call, but - with respect - I think that overenthusiasm for getting coder eyes on a user's debug log is a fine problem to have.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
This thread is perfectly illustrative of pretty much every point I've made.

First we have MP-Ryan saying how we should deal with the moderation issue, despite the fact that I've already said we're discussing it on the internal with the moderators. While there are some great points raised, how about assuming that we are actually listening and are actually doing something rather than simply telling the administration what we should be doing. Shouldn't the fact that we've already made Axem an admin within 2 days of it being raised on this thread lead some of you to believe that action is being taken?

But again, despite having said that things are being done, and that dealing with forum drama takes more time than any other admin duties, I have to come back on the thread to explain yet again that action is being taken.


Then we have Spoon once again refusing to accept any and all moderation whenever he is in the wrong. As a matter of fact I use the phrase "Acting like a dick" to describe the behaviour of a lot of forumites. You'll find that phrase all over the last discussion on moderation. So no, I wasn't actually referring to that incident in particular, although it is a great example of exactly the behaviour I'm on about though.

You asked for more reports and promised more communication; since you didn't step up on the communication front you leave it to users to reach out and try to figure out why actions were taken. :shrug:


Again, we come back to a technical problem there. SMF allows the moderators to read and comment on the report but doesn't offer any simple way to present the consensus back to the person who reported it. This instead means that if the moderators want to report back their conclusions, they are forced to do so in the form of a PM or public post, both of which can spark exactly the kind of unpleasantness Spoon is currently engaged in. Notice that his response is completely based on the fact that I replied to his thread to say that I couldn't see any way of reading his initial post as anything other than rude. i.e his complaint has been read and considered invalid.

The problem is that there are people on HLP who use any excuse to start an argument. And they are often the people doing the reporting. A solution to that issue is to use the Hammer account to report back the results but given how strongly pretty much everyone was against that idea last time it was suggested for punishments, I can't see anyone being on board with it being used to report back.

You've been a global moderator yourself Battuta, so you should be more than aware of the ridiculous level of hostility they face simply for doing their job. You should also be aware of the issues with several of the SMF features.

Like I said, many of the issues raised in this thread are being dealt with already. Acting hostile to the admins and global mods doesn't help get things done though.

Using the guideline example - a number of us subsequently asked Zacam how things were going, and you're righht, he's busy - so again, why is he doing it?

As I pointed out already, I was perfectly happy writing them myself. Yes I could contract the work out, but when I'm already halfway done, why not finish it myself?


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Why isn't the workload being spread out?  You have a huge number of relatively responsible forum members here, why aren't you tapping into them?  You are massively under-utilizing the resources available to you, given how many of the members of this community are fairly active and care about it, out of what looks at this end like paranoia about spreading out the workload and responsibilities.  If you gave more people a hand in running the place, you would simultaneously find them MORE engaged and yourselves with LESS workload.

While that sometimes works, sometimes it results in absolutely nothing getting done. How many times has Black Wolf asked for help with the Wiki only to receive a "meh" in response? We already have a collaborative forum effort with a very low entry barrier. And yet it is still neglected a lot more than it should be.

I pointed at the licensing thread as an example because the only action required from forum members there is to complain when something doesn't have a licence, and complaining is obviously something HLP members are great at. And still nothing got done.

It's hardly surprising the opinion forms that often the most progress happens not from collaborative effort but when one individual decides to get off their butt and do something. Axem proved that perfectly with the newsletter and I did it years before him with my FAQ.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 11:45:54 am by karajorma »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
I'm aware, but I think a PM saying 'hey, we're trying to move bug discussion to Mantis' is a lot more useful than locking a thread without explanation and forcing me to go through another admin to get an explanation and a solution to allow work on solving the bug to continue.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
This thread is perfectly illustrative of pretty much every point I've made.

First we have MP-Ryan saying how we should deal with the moderation issue, despite the fact that I've already said we're discussing it on the internal with the moderators. While there are some great points raised, how about assuming that we are actually listening and are actually doing something rather than simply telling the administration what we should be doing. Shouldn't the fact that we've already made Axem an admin within 2 days of it being raised on this thread lead some of you to believe that action is being taken?

I might be more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt and assume you are actually listening and doing something about the various suggestions you have received - which, again, I'll point out are coming from people with actual, tangible, and significant moderation/admin experience (on the non-technical end, at least) - if every response you make wasn't completely dismissive of these suggestions and hostile in tone.

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But again, despite having said that things are being done, and that dealing with forum drama takes more time than any other admin duties, I have to come back on the thread to explain yet again that action is being taken.

This right here is the massive hallmark of what I'm saying - when you make feedback sound like nothing but a large and constant nuisance, it is difficult to believe claims that "we are doing something" are credible (if they are made at all, which is a rarity).

I'll say again - HLP is the perfect example of a community where the hierarchy of admins/moderators should be eliminated or significantly reduced to a mere formality, which would significantly reduce the number of complaints and hopefully the atttitude we often see from the administrative team as a whole (I have no problem with anyone individually, I'll reiterate) that is charitably described as "permanently defensive."

Communities thrive where their administration and moderation is open, transparent, and infrequently needed to enforce discipline (because its members actively do it without the need for 'official' action).

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As I pointed out already, I was perfectly happy writing them myself. Yes I could contract the work out, but when I'm already halfway done, why not finish it myself?


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Why isn't the workload being spread out?  You have a huge number of relatively responsible forum members here, why aren't you tapping into them?  You are massively under-utilizing the resources available to you, given how many of the members of this community are fairly active and care about it, out of what looks at this end like paranoia about spreading out the workload and responsibilities.  If you gave more people a hand in running the place, you would simultaneously find them MORE engaged and yourselves with LESS workload.

While that sometimes works, sometimes it results in absolutely nothing getting done. How many times has Black Wolf asked for help with the Wiki only to receive a "meh" in response? We already have a collaborative forum effort with a very low entry barrier. And yet it is still neglected a lot more than it should be.

OK, but this is the point that Fury and I have been making - if you have people who are best able to spend their time focussed on specialized tasks, why are they doing the generalized duties that - as stated earlier - anyone with half-an-ounce of good judgement can do?  Why is your time being taken away from other duties by writing forum guidelines, which we had basically written in the thread already?  Why is Black Wolf being sucked away from the wiki (where he needs more help and isn't getting it) to instead de3al with basic moderation?

Distribute the workload efficiently.  Instead of asking for more people with specialized skill sets and hoping they may pop out of the woodwork, ask for people with more generalized skillsets and free up the time of those who have the specialized ones in the first place.

Moderation is and always will be a fairly mundane and routine task (and should be, frankly).  Don't tie up specialized resources with mundane tasks.

*sigh*  The reason I assume you aren't listening is because it appears that you aren't, because you keep mentioning the same barriers which I am suggesting means of circumventing.

Whatever.  I've said my piece.  Take it or leave it.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 11:54:22 am by MP-Ryan »
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Offline Spoon

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
Then we have Spoon once again refusing to accept any and all moderation whenever he is in the wrong. As a matter of fact I use the phrase "Acting like a dick" to describe the behaviour of a lot of forumites. You'll find that phrase all over the last discussion on moderation. So no, I wasn't actually referring to that incident in particular, although it is a great example of exactly the behaviour I'm on about though.
I refuse to accept wrong moderation. Where exactly was I in the wrong again? Making a joke/light hearted jab in rev's direction and getting a angry moderator who is calling me a dick for it? Are you calling this good moderating? Bloody hell I have so many issues with this. The fact that you think that everything forever is always somehow my fault is one of them.
You always have so much bias against me its not even funny.

And this nonsense has gotten me extremely frustrated with HLP over the years. To the point I'm activately saying to myself "man, **** that place. I'm not even going to bother contributing to the wiki or campaign feedback and what not."

This right here is the massive hallmark of what I'm saying - when you make feedback sound like nothing but a large and constant nuisance, it is difficult to believe claims that "we are doing something" are credible (if they are made at all, which is a rarity).

I'll say again - HLP is the perfect example of a community where the hierarchy of admins/moderators should be eliminated or significantly reduced to a mere formality, which would significantly reduce the number of complaints and hopefully the atttitude we often see from the administrative team as a whole (I have no problem with anyone individually, I'll reiterate) that is charitably described as "permanently defensive."

Communities thrive where their administration and moderation is open, transparent, and infrequently needed to enforce discipline (because its members actively do it without the need for 'official' action).
This is so true.
But the people who fancy themselves 'in power' always seem to be so activately opposed to this.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 12:01:04 pm by Spoon »
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[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
Then we have Spoon once again refusing to accept any and all moderation whenever he is in the wrong. As a matter of fact I use the phrase "Acting like a dick" to describe the behaviour of a lot of forumites. You'll find that phrase all over the last discussion on moderation. So no, I wasn't actually referring to that incident in particular, although it is a great example of exactly the behaviour I'm on about though.
I refuse to accept wrong moderation. Where exactly was I in the wrong again? Making a joke/light hearted jab in rev's direction and getting a angry moderator who is calling me a dick for it? Are you calling this good moderating? Bloody hell I have so many issues with this. The fact that you think that everything forever is always somehow my fault is one of them.
You always have so much bias against me its not even funny.

Spoon, I know you have issues, but there are some bigger ones at play here that the personal spat you and karajorma may be distracting from in the discussion.  No offense, but maybe we could focus on the bigger ones at the moment?
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Offline Spoon

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
Spoon, I know you have issues, but there are some bigger ones at play here that the personal spat you and karajorma may be distracting from in the discussion.  No offense, but maybe we could focus on the bigger ones at the moment?
Well I could say that I agree with pretty much everything you say. And you are saying it better than I could anyway.
I doubt it will help, cause discussions like this have been done in the past and I havent actually noticed significant change in the way things are handled.

So I guess I'll shut up then. I'm just needlessly winding myself up here.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
I might be more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt and assume you are actually listening and doing something about the various suggestions you have received - which, again, I'll point out are coming from people with actual, tangible, and significant moderation/admin experience (on the non-technical end, at least) - if every response you make wasn't completely dismissive of these suggestions and hostile in tone.

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But again, despite having said that things are being done, and that dealing with forum drama takes more time than any other admin duties, I have to come back on the thread to explain yet again that action is being taken.

This right here is the massive hallmark of what I'm saying - when you make feedback sound like nothing but a large and constant nuisance, it is difficult to believe claims that "we are doing something" are credible (if they are made at all, which is a rarity).

I did say that there were some great ideas in there. But like I said, we are discussing the issue on the internal as we speak. Feel free to ask any moderator or admin you'd like if posts on better reporting and giving the moderators more tools aren't already under discussion. But if no one who admins on here says that, we get complaints about how you guys are saying stuff on how to improve HLP and we are ignoring you. If we reply and say that we're already talking about it, you say that you don't believe it.

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OK, but this is the point that Fury and I have been making - if you have people who are best able to spend their time focussed on specialized tasks, why are they doing the generalized duties that - as stated earlier - anyone with half-an-ounce of good judgement can do?  Why is your time being taken away from other duties by writing forum guidelines, which we had basically written in the thread already?  Why is Black Wolf being sucked away from the wiki (where he needs more help and isn't getting it) to instead de3al with basic moderation?


I don't know what specialised skills you think I'm being drawn away from. I'm a community admin same as Axem is. I don't do anything on the backend of HLP and duties such as adding new forums or membergroups are pretty light work. If you refer to coding or FREDding, pretty much everyone else could cite that excuse. I've already said that I'm not against hiring more admins or moderators (I think you'd find that I was the person who suggested promoting both Scotty and Axem to the admin board). But let's have the changes we're discussing internally working before we bring anyone new on board.

I'm aware, but I think a PM saying 'hey, we're trying to move bug discussion to Mantis' is a lot more useful than locking a thread without explanation and forcing me to go through another admin to get an explanation and a solution to allow work on solving the bug to continue.

I don't think that's an unfair point. But it is a single data point and sometimes you really don't know what will set someone off.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
I'll back MP-Ryan's last post, but it feels safest to me to just stay heads-down, work on mods and code, and pretend the motions of policy and moderation are just weather. I value HLP as a creative outlet and I've had excellent experiences with other content creators and with the coders.

I've seen really good calls made by some admins and GMs - when Lorric launched a campaign of PM harassment against The_E and I, Kara and Zacam were responsive. But in general, interacting with the admins and moderation, from low level stuff like thread locks up to major decisions, feels like a black box process. Stuff happens orthogonally to the issue or not at all.

I think a big issue for me is that of climate: HLP is very quick  to crack down on people using the word 'idiot', and very slow to crack down on posters who are hostile or disruptive towards content creators and (in the case of GenDisc) substantive topical experts. Spoon faced constant harassment and people writing weird rape fantasies about his characters. We're told to report these so they can be dealt with, but nothing happens, and then we're told the reports are obnoxious. The result is an environment in which tone is ruthlessly policed but actual effect on the forums is mostly ignored. Saying 'asshole' gets you time off; cruising around High Max style driving productive posters insane gets those productive posters time off.  It feels perverse and frustrating.

This leads to people like Spoon turning into bittervets. They can't get help from the admins, so they have to deal with hostile posters themselves with the only tools available: harsh language and ignore lists. Then they're condemned for being angry and combative.

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I don't think that's an unfair point. But it is a single data point and sometimes you really don't know what will set someone off.

Well as far as single data points go, the same thread had already been locked once by the same admin - I had to put it in for review and get it unlocked. Then when I pointed out it had been erroneously stickied a few weeks later it got locked again, again without any communication or explanation! If there was something wrong with the thread it would've taken one PM to sort out.

This is why mod/admin decisions start to feel like the weather: they happen for no reason and you just kind of have to work around them as best as you can.

 

Offline The E

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
I think a big issue for me is that of climate: HLP is very quick  to crack down on people using the word 'idiot', and very slow to crack down on posters who are hostile or disruptive towards content creators and (in the case of GenDisc) substantive topical experts. Spoon faced constant harassment and people writing weird rape fantasies about his characters. We're told to report these so they can be dealt with, but nothing happens, and then we're told the reports are obnoxious. The result is an environment in which tone is ruthlessly policed but actual effect on the forums is mostly ignored. Saying 'asshole' gets you time off; cruising around High Max style driving productive posters insane gets those productive posters time off.  It feels perverse and frustrating.

This issue is a big part of my problem with the current system as well. I am unable to adequately respond to areas where I feel moderation is necessary because there are no rules that I can point to to build a case. Everything has to be resolved in tortuous discussions with people who are not as involved in the day-to-day discussions that happen here as I (as a GM) think I have to be.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
I really do not want to lose E as a GM and I'm afraid that will happen if this continues. He is a huge contributor to the SCP and a constant asset to tech support. If the forum's climate is not right for him then I think something's wrong with the forum climate.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
Why do you think I'm so annoyed that the new forum guidelines were trashed and nothing was put in their place?

Those guidelines were specifically designed to stop people like High Max and Lorric. To make sure that the actual effect someone has on a forum is more important than the way they say it.

So yes I'm pretty ****ing annoyed that people are complaining about the way moderation is handled on these forums when I not only saw the problem months ago but was actively hamstrung from implementing a solution by the same people who are now complaining about it.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
But - I thought - that last thread ended on broad consensus and an agreement that something would be drawn up internally and presented?  :confused: I took 6 months off afterwards, but my impression was that everyone agreed something should be done and then the process stalled internally because Zacam was busy.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
But - I thought - that last thread ended on broad consensus and an agreement that something would be drawn up internally and presented?  :confused: I took 6 months off afterwards, but my impression was that everyone agreed something should be done and then the process stalled internally because Zacam was busy.

Indeed, this is my entire recollection as well.  Now the only record I can find is this subsequent thread:  http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=85191.0

However, the community basically re-wrote the guidelines in the discussion thread, and then it was assigned to Zacam, and then it has apparently disappeared into a black hole.

There were significant and reasonable objections to the original guideline re-write, but there was some significant consensus from the people who were involved in the subsequent discussion that karajorma is currently complaining about... so what gives?

EDIT:  I suck at thread finding.  Not only did I find the thread, I found the last rule revision that had some consensus (which, it turns out, was mine!) http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=84758.msg1693444#msg1693444
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 01:23:22 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline The E

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
I want those rules.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
Yep, that's kind of my point. We didn't get the original ones on the thread, we didn't get the ones I was writing based on the comments on that thread (I only posted the first one which MP-Ryan expanded upon, not realising it was only the first guideline) and we didn't get MP-Ryan's either.

Instead we all got a confusing and mismatched hodgepodge of the old rules being implemented with the new ideas on how to moderate when even the very first (flawed) set of guidelines would be enough to deal with people like Lorric.

So whenever I want to do something about him, I just get comments about how he hasn't broken any rules.

So if I'm annoyed, it's because while everyone was willing to queue up to trash the first set of guidelines, not a single person disagreed with the idea that Zacam should write the new guidelines, not a single person said "Hang on a second, Karajorma and MP-Ryan seem to be doing a good job, why don't we leave it to them?"

And now I'm hearing complaints from the same people who didn't speak up then, that Zacam shouldn't have the task of writing new guidelines and that we should be getting people from outside to help with tasks.

Of course I'm pissed off.

But if MP-Ryan is willing, I'm perfectly happy to trash out a new set of guidelines with him this weekend.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 01:46:17 pm by karajorma »
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
This place is such a cluster**** of pride and tradition. I fully expect to be ignored or jumped on.. but whatever, I don't really care.

Those in power only ever want to keep or gain more power and rarely do they allow it to be diluted by adding more to the inner circle. And that's what HLP's moderation is built on, levels of super sektret inner circles. Show me a thread like this and I'll find you a post from a GM or Admin talking about how us regular forumites don't know the crap they deal with because we aren't special enough. I watched certain Admins and GMs for a long time give "weasel-like" reasoning/justifications while throwing their title out and asking whomever to just deal with it. And they're right because they are on the inner circle. And, as said here, the mods don't like moderation to be reported! Good job, guys.

Whatever. If there's anything I've learned in my time here, it's that things don't really ever change. Thread after thread on Site Support is evidence of that. Adding Axem as an Admin does not change the very core moderation culture which is the root of the problem. You know what real change might look like? Throw out Admins as moderators of any kind. Admins keep the forum running from a technical standpoint. Let the GMs do the moderation... But we all know we can't do anything that might remove a supporting pedestal to the special Admin Avatars.

Battuta hit the nail on the head when he compared HLP's moderation to the weather. It comes and goes and you stay inside or put on a coat when necessary.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
So if I'm annoyed, it's because while everyone was willing to queue up to trash the first set of guidelines, not a single person disagreed with the idea that Zacam should write the new guidelines, not a single person said "Hang on a second, Karajorma and MP-Ryan seem to be doing a good job, why don't we leave it to them?"

To be fair, when Goober suggested it and Zacam showed willingness to do it, I, at least, assumed that that was the decision of the admin/mod team and was owed some deference as a result - input was given, input was listened to, task was assigned, progress was imminent.

Of course, it has since become apparent that that was not at all the case and the ruleset that had been worked upon in the thread should have at least been adopted as a temporary measure while more comprehensive reform was underway.

But this just adds fuel to the fire - admins roles and tasks have not been clearly defined, it seems, to themselves OR the community at large (kara, I legitimately had no idea you weren't involved in the tech side).  had this been abundantly clear, then I would have argued then, as I have been now, that tasks should be assigned to those most able to do them as a function of both time and skillset.

The major issue that I think most of us have with how things are run around here is the complete lack of transparency when there is no need for secrecy.  Everyone could point out that Lorric was being a problem, but it was improper to discuss that outside the admin internal.  Why?  Like I keep emphasizing, this is one of the communities most fit to self-policing of any I've been a part of.  And by self-policing I don't mean giving admin rights to everyone, but I do mean that admins/mods should be making their informal and formal actions transparently within the expectations of the broader community.

That guideline in the thread would cover every possible justification for both the community and the admin/mod team saying "enough" to the disruptive elements and dealing with them immediately.  No, Lorric hadn't broken any particular rule, but virtually everyone on this bloody board could tell you that his behaviour was destructive and disruptive, and the issue could have been dealt with much sooner.  As it is, the fellow really doesn't have a clue what he's doing that gets everyone so perturbed; if the shackles came off the community at large and the mod team intervened early, directly, and with the minimum force required (there I go channeling work again) then it would not have reached this point... or if it did, we could at least say we've tried everything.  As it stands, can anyone here REALLY say that?

Frankly, the admin board should only exist to discuss internal, technical issues with the site management.  For that, limited access by trusted community members is appropriate.

All the design, rules, disciplinary measures, disruption, etc should be part of a board that can at least be publicly read, if not necessarily commented on.  There is no need for policing of posting behaviour, etc to be a secretive thing, and the fact that it is - and is done by a very small percentage of community members - is perhaps one of the biggest reasons you get pushback.  If moderation were a community activity enforced technically by moderators and admins, it would be a much less controversial thing.  And that has to be preciptated by both a rulset change and a governance structure change.

I see mjn.mixael made a post very much along these lines as I wrote this one.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
But if MP-Ryan is willing, I'm perfectly happy to trash out a new set of guidelines with him this weekend.

I don't think it needs to wait or be done in private.  I'll start a new thread based on what we had before; then the rest of the membership can comment on what they like or don't like... and you can split out any posts that don't do those things.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: On storing stuff other than project files
I don't suppose it will suprise anyone if I say that I highly agree with the things mjn.mixael said (and battuta&mp-ryan for that matter)
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them