[Goober5000]

I don't think that deconstructing an argument necessarily precludes the possibility of punishment though.

So... he retracted his post.  He apologized, not once but three times.  He has been pummeled over the course of three threads.  And you still think he needs more punishment?

No wonder he has the impression that there's a bias against him.

[General Battuta]

The original post was a very personal attack. InsaneBaron's initial response was laudable, but unfortunately, his subsequent posts have undermined his position. He keeps returning to a judgmental, supercilious stance that makes his apologies feel insincere - and, worse, cast his past actions in a different and much less generous light.

Because I have proportionally smaller time and energy to devote to HLP these days, the emotional tenor of that time is going to eat up more of it.

Man, I just checked the thread and Goob seems to think I'm trying to get Baron banned and that my reaction was a calculated play. This is weird because I posted an acceptance of Baron's apology before I left for work this morning. I suspect it didn't get through, but I hope Goob will accept my word that I tried to send it as evidence of good faith.

This is super rough. I am very conflict-averse and an out-and-out accusation that I'm trying to work this situation like some kind of Machiavelli is - man, how do I even talk about it without Goob accusing me of being a drama queen? How do I even talk about talking about without running into that kind of accusation?

I think I'm going to request some more time off. I guess Goob will conclude I'm emotionally unstable? I am not sure how to react to this except to get some distance. The InsaneBaron stuff was working out fine but this feels too crazy.

I honestly have no idea how to handle a situation in which another party thinks everything I say about how I feel is some kind of calculated political move. The Bungie job is a massive time sink and I just don't want to have this worrying at me. Is there some way I can make this a genuine human statement instead of a potential robo-maneuver?

[Goober5000]

This is weird because I posted an acceptance of Baron's apology before I left for work this morning. I suspect it didn't get through

Quelle surprise!

but I hope Goob will accept my word that I tried to send it as evidence of good faith.

No need to rely on my opinion.  Just post the acceptance again, or as close to the original as you can remember, and your good faith will be demonstrated for all to see.

[Flipside]

This is my cat asking for food.

Everyone look at the hungry moggy.

[attachment deleted by an evil time traveler]

[General Battuta]

This is weird because I posted an acceptance of Baron's apology before I left for work this morning. I suspect it didn't get through

Quelle surprise!

but I hope Goob will accept my word that I tried to send it as evidence of good faith.

No need to rely on my opinion.  Just post the acceptance again, or as close to the original as you can remember, and your good faith will be demonstrated for all to see.

Re: Luis' post about the abortion debate I said 'Agreed, that will go bad places' and re: InsaneBaron's I said 'Thank you, I appreciate that. I'm going to have to think about this, but it's good of you to apologize'. His conduct since then has ticked me off a bit, but I did hit 'post' on that around - 8 or so PST this morning.

Man I don't know if you think I'm trying to play all this or what, but your attitude about this - hurts? Do you believe that? Do you think I'm just trying to compassion bait here? I don't know what to say.

[General Battuta]

And look, I'm obviously pretty raw about you accusing people of getting overly emotional. That is a point on which we have historically had some dispute and which has turned out very badly.

[Goober5000]

Re: Luis' post about the abortion debate I said 'Agreed, that will go bad places' and re: InsaneBaron's I said 'Thank you, I appreciate that. I'm going to have to think about this, but it's good of you to apologize'. His conduct since then has ticked me off a bit, but I did hit 'post' on that around - 8 or so PST this morning.

Then I shall accept your acceptance at face value.

[General Battuta]

I genuinely appreciate that, it's a weight off.

[karajorma]

The original post was a very personal attack.

I happen to agree with this. While some people may want to claim there is a distinction between saying "You are an arsehole" and "All people who like purple are arseholes" I tend to feel that distinction fades the second you know you are talking to people wearing purple.

I don't think that deconstructing an argument necessarily precludes the possibility of punishment though.

So... he retracted his post.  He apologized, not once but three times.  He has been pummeled over the course of three threads.  And you still think he needs more punishment?

No wonder he has the impression that there's a bias against him.

This is the second time this week I have to question if you are even reading my posts before replying to them. Did you not read the second sentence I posted before trimming it out?


Deconstruction of InsaneBaron's post would have occurred (and in fact HAD occurred) long before he posted. The fact that it occurred does not preclude some measure of punitive action, especially if his post upon returning had been a defence of his original post. 

[Goober5000]

I don't think that deconstructing an argument necessarily precludes the possibility of punishment though.

So... he retracted his post.  He apologized, not once but three times.  He has been pummeled over the course of three threads.  And you still think he needs more punishment?

No wonder he has the impression that there's a bias against him.

This is the second time this week I have to question if you are even reading my posts before replying to them. Did you not read the second sentence I posted before trimming it out?

Deconstruction of InsaneBaron's post would have occurred (and in fact HAD occurred) long before he posted. The fact that it occurred does not preclude some measure of punitive action, especially if his post upon returning had been a defence of his original post.

I read it, but this helps clarify what you said.  You were using "precludes" in the general sense, not in the present-tense sense.  If that's the case, then you weren't calling for additional punishment at the present time, and I retract my post.

[Luis Dias]

I find Goober's treatment of General Battuta incredibly appalling. The bullying and manipulation involved here is astonishing. "Drama Queening"? "Quelle Surprise"? Accepting acceptance on behalf of others? What the royal **** is this? People here just generally put up with this?

[InsaneBaron]

This is weird because I posted an acceptance of Baron's apology before I left for work this morning. I suspect it didn't get through

Quelle surprise!

but I hope Goob will accept my word that I tried to send it as evidence of good faith.

No need to rely on my opinion.  Just post the acceptance again, or as close to the original as you can remember, and your good faith will be demonstrated for all to see.

Re: Luis' post about the abortion debate I said 'Agreed, that will go bad places' and re: InsaneBaron's I said 'Thank you, I appreciate that. I'm going to have to think about this, but it's good of you to apologize'. His conduct since then has ticked me off a bit, but I did hit 'post' on that around - 8 or so PST this morning.

Man I don't know if you think I'm trying to play all this or what, but your attitude about this - hurts? Do you believe that? Do you think I'm just trying to compassion bait here? I don't know what to say.

I accept your acceptance as well. I'm genuinely sorry for my actions. And I entirely believe you that the event was painful.

[swashmebuckle]

My initial reaction to this secondary fallout was very much along the lines of what Luis posted above. It's so important not to assume disingenuous manipulation on the part of the person you are talking to, especially when you are in a position of authority. That's straight up community poison.

Likewise, it's also important for us not to immediately assume that Goober's quelle surprise stuff is a conscious effort to manipulate and discredit.

[StarSlayer]

I wanted to have nothing more to do with that thread(s) than stay aloft in my Battlecruiser and listen to choral records.  But I think it typified the issues I brought up in the rules thread.  There was no specific topical issue in that thread to address, it was essentially a generic attack on religion, nothing more than than spoiling for a fight.  Christianity is a bunch of make believe BS and we would be Type II civilization if it weren't for that asshole Charles Martel.  Folks chime in to agree and have a laugh, (which like it or not basically insinuates that religious people are a bunch of dumb neobarbs) until eventually someone on the other side rises to the bait and insinuates that atheists are a bunch of amoral baby killers.  Every bodies' feelings are hurt and lets chew on each other for seven pages.  It would still be going like an Iraqi oil fire if one side didn't have the numbers to browbeat the opposition.

At the end of the day I doubt any of the participants are getting anything out of that thread but thinking what a bunch of arrogant assholes their opposition are and possibly some sub cockle region satisfaction.  Has this contributed to the Freespace community in any way?  Has it been a detriment?  If someone was interested in Freespace, visits the forum and sees seven pages of vitriol and invective back and forth are they going to form a positive opinion on the community?  I know Diaspora is in need of more staff, I certainly wouldn't want potentially productive prospects to tell Mr. Malmesteen to GUTFBIO.

[Luis Dias]

That's not a fair description at all StarSlayer.

Should I really remind you that the thread first post was about how the "devastating arguments" against christianity were false. That is, the first post was a post against some of the atheist arguments, not the other way around. And how that post was followed by a civilized, understanding discussion and (mostly) agreement on how those arguments were indeed flawed. People also chimed in with their own thoughts on how some points were only addressing parts of the issues, and of course these things were discussed at lenght.

Nowhere did I see a "laugh" nor a "we should be civ kardashev ii by nau" kind of post. I challenge you to find one.

Herra makes a challenge against religion in theological terms. Goober doesn't like it. A civilized discussion of what the story of Job means and what not ensues.

So I really challenge you to tell me where this "spoiling for a fight" occurred. Because I really fail to see it. Help me here.

[StarSlayer]

Affirmative, I'll reread the thing again and be back for pie if necessary.

[Flipside]

The purpose of making a discussion about transgressions of the rules was to try and solve the problem without resorting to moderator action, not in order to continue to gang-bang the 'offender'. I know that's an absolute favourite pastime in here, but that really wasn't its purpose.

[StarSlayer]

Okay I reread the whole thing and paint me seventy shades of stupid and regard my post as a probably the largest systematic brain fart I've suffered on the internet, ever.  I formally apologize, I'm not quite sure what comedy of errors lead me to the interpretation I drew.  I'm actually chuckling in embarrassment at my machine.  I'll be sure to gaze upon it in the future and ponder folly.

In the meantime...



Delicious Pie.

Mmmmmmm.



Holy crap I'm dumb, I mean wow.  Maybe I took too many men shots in Kendo?

[Mongoose]

Either way, it's the perfect day for pie, or at least will be in a few hours here.

[NGTM-1R]

Likewise, it's also important for us not to immediately assume that Goober's quelle surprise stuff is a conscious effort to manipulate and discredit.

Given that it is consistent even up to an ungracious acceptance that was offered not only in the name of himself but another who wasn't even a participant in the discussion, and Goober's...somewhat warped view of authority on the forum, I'm not sure immediate is the word for what most people are going to assume about this.

And you still think he needs more punishment?

Do the rules have consequences or can I retract any breach of them before a moderator or admin makes a decision to punish me and escape? Effective systems for maintaining order require certainty of punishment for transgression. Contrition is good. Accepting your mistakes have real consequences is better.