Author Topic: OT-Religion...  (Read 114016 times)

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Offline Kellan

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« Last Edit: May 10, 2002, 06:11:17 pm by 323 »

 

Offline Kellan

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Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet

Nothing wrong with not doing drugs. The best method against STDs and AIDs is abstience, 90% of diseases are never eliminated, vaccines may come about, but as they dont exist for AIDs, abstience stands, as it means all forms of sex are avoided.


But you're missing my point. You would never ever get everyone to believe in abstinence, when sex has its own particular...attractions. And so you have to be pragmatic about contraception. It's a hierarchical model.

Don't have sex, but if you do, use contraception.

You have to be prepared for the fact that people will not abstain. Especially if they don't believe in your religion which preaches it. For this reason Christians in positions of power (thinking GW Bush here) who push for abstinence over contraception are endangering the world.

 

Offline Zeronet

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Quote
Originally posted by Kellan


But you're missing my point. You would never ever get everyone to believe in abstinence, when sex has its own particular...attractions. And so you have to be pragmatic about contraception. It's a hierarchical model.

Don't have sex, but if you do, use contraception.

You have to be prepared for the fact that people will not abstain. Especially if they don't believe in your religion which preaches it. For this reason Christians in positions of power (thinking GW Bush here) who push for abstinence over contraception are endangering the world.


 When i say abstinence, i do mean outside marriage, inside marriage its almost a different issue, if you dont want kids just yet, use contraception.
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Offline Kellan

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Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet

When i say abstinence, i do mean outside marriage, inside marriage its almost a different issue, if you dont want kids just yet, use contraception.


And what I mean is that you won't get people to abstain outside marriage, so you have to encourage people to use contraception. Better they do that than die a slow, agonising death.

And you're still awake too? Cripes. ;)

 

Offline Zeronet

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What I mean is im not against conctraception, but abstien outside marriage would also be better. Sadly society fails to realise the ideals of many religions, so people act immorally etc, forgetting that many religions promote understanding and love and friendship.
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Offline Kellan

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Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
What I mean is im not against conctraception, but abstien outside marriage would also be better. Sadly society fails to realise the ideals of many religions, so people act immorally etc, forgetting that many religions promote understanding and love and friendship.


Oh, okay. We can begin to agree slightly. I don't deny that religions can promote peace, love, and friendship, but all too often they are used by people as an excuse for hatred, intolerance and war. It's the same reason that I oppose religion that I wouldn't leave a loaded gun round my house.

But at least we can begin to agree...a little. ;)

 
This is what Killadonuts has to say about religion
Here's something to take with you next Sunday on your way to church:  
In the entire history of mankind, more people have been murdered, executed, and/or tourtured "In the Name Of God" than any other cause.
Examples:
Spanish Inquisition
Salem Witch Trials
World Trade Center and Pentagon
The Crusades
Suicide Bombings
The death and destruction currently exchanged between Israel and Palestine

God Bless :sigh:
« Last Edit: May 10, 2002, 07:31:28 pm by 710 »
Watching from the background since 17 April 2002.

 

Offline Unknown Target

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an0n, you're starting to threatan the integrity of this thread, and I suggest you leave. Now.

My comment about being banned is that I've been to boards where "deep," topics like this are grounds for banning, for some bizarre reasons.

Personally, I agree with religion, of any kind. But, when it's taken to the extent that it is now, and the blind, stupid following of it by humans, it is unreasonable and more of a parasite than a helping hand. That's why I chose my own religion, where I am free to make my own choices, and are not burdened and shunned for other people's mistakes, such as the pope's.

I would really like to see this thread continue, people. It seems to have become  a good discussion, where ideas can  be shared about such a deep topic as this. So keep it clean. Please.

 

Offline CODEDOG ND

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Ok ok I'm just taking a survey here.  Can you guys please post if you are more liberal or conservative and what your belief is.  I'll do mine for an example.

Conservative
Baptist

I'm trying to draw some political conculsions from this and that's all.
It's a fact.  Stupid people have stupid children.  If you are stupid, don't have sex.  If you insist on having sex.  Have sex with animals.  If you have sex with an animal.  Make sure the animal is smarter than you are.  Just encase of some biological fluke you and the animal have offspring, they won't be as stupid as you are.   One more thing.  Don't assume the animal is protected.  If the animal has a condom, or if female some interuterian device, insist they wear it.  Help stop this mindless mindlessness.  Keep your stupidty to yourself.  This message was brought to you by the Committee of Concerned Citizens that are Smarter than You are.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: This is what Killadonuts has to say about religion
Quote
Originally posted by an0n

The Catholic Church offers salvation to all who can:
A) Repent and pledge their faith to the Catholic Church
B) Afford it


Excuse me? Since when does the catholic church offer salvation? AFAIK, even though I believe that the catholic church has strayed extremely far off the path set by Jesus, I don't think they claim to have control over salvation - correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote
Originally posted by killadonuts
Here's something to take with you next Sunday on your way to church:  
In the entire history of mankind, more people have been murdered, executed, and/or tourtured "In the Name Of God" than any other cause.
Examples:
Spanish Inquisition
Salem Witch Trials
World Trade Center and Pentagon
The Crusades
Suicide Bombings
The death and destruction currently exchanged between Israel and Palestine

God Bless :sigh:


Two things:

1) You forgot the "best" example of them all - The Holocaust :(

2) Note that the majority of hatred is not specifically from a religion as much as it is towards a different religion.

Now, to reply in general: I have faith in things unseen. Yes, I've been brought up that way, and yes, I realize that at this point in time I'm following a path that my parents set out for me. I do have questions, however I also believe that I have answers.

Oh, yes - my faith: Messianic Jew (Christian whose Bible starts from Genesis, not just Matthew).

I think it makes sense. I believe that there are hings in this world which we humans are simply not meant to understand (e.g. "Why did God allow such-and-such to occur?!"). I see the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy - heck, I'm even living out a fulfillment of prophecy (that the Jews would return to God's land to possess it. That the land would blossom under their hand. That God would bring His people back from land of the north... etc.) It's quite exciting to see prophecy being fulfilled all around you, y'know? :)

Did you know that the more scientists try to prove the Bible wrong, the more they prove it right?
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline wEvil

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Re: Re: This is what Killadonuts has to say about religion
First, before I offend anyones sensibilities:

My opinions on religion are purely based on my LIMITED knowledge of historical fact and are also purely objective given my fairly "unique" outlook on human affairs.


Religion as such is the curse of mankind.   It has singularly been responsible for more death, destruction, repression of valuable information and a more potent antigen to progress by any means imaginable than ANY other phenomenon in history.

The crime of religion against humanity is an inexcusable aberration.

Having said that...why do we have religion?

Faith is not only a valuable method of political and social control but also a valuable tool for keeping a cohesive social entity together in times of hardship.

In my opinion...we need to find the middle ground between faith and reason, science and relogion, and sit there.

Science will never be deterministic (phlank proved that) and Religion will never replace science in our ideas of cosmology.

Both are incomplete without the other.

As such, its' up to most of us today to work out which peices are useful and applicable to our current lifestyle, and assemble a framework by which to manage (NOT live, NOT structure, NOT worship) our lives by in a way that causes the least pain to other sentient (and non-sentient) beings.  Science without ethics leads to mutations, nukes and the end of life as we know it.

Religion without science leads to superstition and a degenerate, backwards society.

Sort out your differences between them and put together the puzzle youself.  For me astrology and physics solved it, for you it may be different.  Either way, you're here for a reason.  Find it, do it, and then spend whatever time you have left celebrating your accomplishments before you leave for the next task.

This probably isn't enlightning and probably is just the semi-insane rantings of a drunk forumite at 4 in the morning.  On the offchance someone reads, and actually by a miracle understands a word i'm saying/typing is: take care- beleive it or not everyone around you does care in their own strange way.

 

Offline YodaSean

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The problem is, without some sort of almighty ruler or creator, too many unanswered questions exist: "How did the universe begin?"(who created the "big bang", or any other number of theories on how the universe began),  "Why do people exist?", and "Will everything be chrome in the future?" .:confused: :confused:  

Quote

One of the reasons I detest it is right there; scientifically this makes no sense and does not appeal to the rational mind. A few axioms are necessary for any formulation of course, but after looking more in depth into the major religions, all I can say is that this is beyond ridiculous in today's world.

A god of some sort that makes the universe conforms to science just as much as having a universe pop up out of nowhere.  Try to prove their isn't a god. :)  The reason the idea is "beyond ridiculous in today's world" happens to be a combination of:
1. "Today's World" being much better off than it used to be and much more sure of itself
2.  "Today's World" being your own viewpoint of the world, which may or may not differ from another's view of the world.

If there really isn't an almighty being who created the universe, then their obviously isn't any purpose to life, other than the one that you create yourself, even though you shouldn't be able to create your own reason for existence if their is no reason to exist in the first place.  

Quote

I don't believe in any kind of higher power. When you die, you die - which is why it's so important to make good the opportunity you have at life.

Why does it matter what you do while your alive if everything that you did immediately disapears once you die?  You can't say that you have any impact on the "world".  When you die, your own world is gone, in a way.  According to your theory, it really doesn't matter whether you suffer your whole life or have a great time.  And by considering life an "oppurtunity", you imply that it was given to you.

edit:
I guess I should put that I'm Episcopalian, and I don't really like to think of myself as conservative or liberal
« Last Edit: May 10, 2002, 11:06:31 pm by 244 »

 

Offline CODEDOG ND

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Strangely, I understood where you are coming from with that, however some of it I tend to disagree with. :)  I mean Wevil not Yoda.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2002, 11:02:47 pm by 251 »
It's a fact.  Stupid people have stupid children.  If you are stupid, don't have sex.  If you insist on having sex.  Have sex with animals.  If you have sex with an animal.  Make sure the animal is smarter than you are.  Just encase of some biological fluke you and the animal have offspring, they won't be as stupid as you are.   One more thing.  Don't assume the animal is protected.  If the animal has a condom, or if female some interuterian device, insist they wear it.  Help stop this mindless mindlessness.  Keep your stupidty to yourself.  This message was brought to you by the Committee of Concerned Citizens that are Smarter than You are.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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I've said this before, and I'll say it again

 Gah, religious thread! Kill it kill it!

 I'm gonna live my life how I think it should be, and then we'll see where I go

 

Offline ZylonBane

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Quote
Originally posted by YodaSean
The problem is, without some sort of almighty ruler or creator, too many unanswered questions exist
Inability to answer a question is a reflection on you, not the universe. Ascribing all unexplained phenomenon to a magic man in the sky is the ultimate intellectual copout.

Quote
Why does it matter what you do while your alive if everything that you did immediately disapears once you die?
You've completely missed the point. It's important to make the most of this life because (so the theory goes), there's no afterlife to fall back on. Someone who lives their life a certain way only because they believe it will influence their (nonexistent) afterlife, can be said to have wasted their life.

And "opportunity" absolutely does not imply something being given. They can be given, or arise by random chance. The origin of an opportunity is not part of its definition.
ZylonBane's opinions do not represent those of the management.

 

Offline CP5670

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I'm a liberal (radical in some ways) and something between an agnostic and an atheist. :p

Quote
Religion as such is the curse of mankind.


That sums up its role in this stage of history.

Quote
A god of some sort that makes the universe conforms to science just as much as having a universe pop up out of nowhere. Try to prove their isn't a god. :)

If there really isn't an almighty being who created the universe, then their obviously isn't any purpose to life, other than the one that you create yourself, even though you shouldn't be able to create your own reason for existence if their is no reason to exist in the first place.


Actually, this does not fit in with science at all, as scientific philosophy dictates to disbelieve everything without either theoretical or experimental proof. It may be impossible to prove the nonexistence of a god, but it is then equally impossible to disprove it as well. Unless experimental or mathematical evidence exists (neither does), the idea should be discarded.

The god thing isn't that much of a problem alone; it is this way that people think of a god as a "superhuman" with his own petty ambitions and one who interferes with human affairs. You can call the big bang god for all it matters, but this idea of a god who watches over people and rewards or punishes them is simply ridiculous. Also, the one important question remains: how was this "almighty" created? No religion ever seems to explain that, or even try to think about it, because then their whole dogmatic structure would fall to pieces.

Now, as for the idea of purposes, this had me thinking for quite some time about a year ago. First, nothing has to have a "purpose" except as seen through subjective eyes; causality can include random causes and can go back into history for a transfinite amount of time, foregoing the purpose according to math. For example, regarding the fundamental forces of nature, the current big bang theory suggests that none of the forces existed seperately at one point but were created by independently random particle interactions and other combinations; any other combinations of forces or their properties could have occurred as well, but it was random chance that this happened. People do not need to have a "reason" for existence except by that which they define themselves in their lifetimes.

Once we get into the realm of that which has no effect on our universe, just about anything can be said to exist and it cannot be proved to be right or wrong, which is why we should disregard it until all data on our universe has been collected and analyzed.

Also, if the beginning of the universe can be linked to the end, a loop will have been created and no further explanation would be necessary on that point, as we would have an transfinite number of universes in all of time, which is similarly transfinite in its length.

Quote
Why does it matter what you do while your alive if everything that you did immediately disapears once you die? You can't say that you have any impact on the "world". When you die, your own world is gone, in a way. According to your theory, it really doesn't matter whether you suffer your whole life or have a great time. And by considering life an "oppurtunity", you imply that it was given to you.


Your impact on the world lies in however you change it through the course of its history, which is determined by your influence on others and the use of technology to modify the universe. There is no "good" or "bad" impact here as far as the universe as a whole goes. Also, as Zylon said, life in the current sense could simply have been started off by an IRV and the chain of events continues to this day.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2002, 01:22:35 am by 296 »

 

Offline ZylonBane

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I said that?

I think this sums up Christianity pretty well (or not... eh, it's funny anyway)--
ZylonBane's opinions do not represent those of the management.

 

Offline Kellan

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Quote
Originally posted by ZylonBane
You've completely missed the point. It's important to make the most of this life because (so the theory goes), there's no afterlife to fall back on. Someone who lives their life a certain way only because they believe it will influence their (nonexistent) afterlife, can be said to have wasted their life.

And "opportunity" absolutely does not imply something being given. They can be given, or arise by random chance. The origin of an opportunity is not part of its definition.


Thank you, ZylonBane, for perfectly articulating the point that I've been trying to explain for so long. And also to CP, for pointing out that your actions live on. YodaSean was seeming to imply that once you die, everything goes back to how it was before you even existed.

And Sandwich, not to get into some kind of massive Holocaust debate too, but the Holocaust was more a result of social darwinism, blame for the loss of WWI, and hatred of the Jews' social position rather than an ancient religious hatred of Judaism because of an idea of 'Christ-killing' or something like that. The Jews had been emancipated in German society for decades.

Oh, and to add to the research ;)

Atheist
Liberal, possibly radical (depends how you define radical I guess :p)

 

Offline Top Gun

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Quote
Originally posted by Zeronet
abstience stands, as it means all forms of sex are avoided.

Ahh, it was only a matter of time, wasn't it? If you can rationally explain to me why abstinence is better than contraception without using the bible then I'll abstain myself (no chance). Anyway, thank you for presenting me with one of the reasons as to why I reject Judeo/Christianity repulsively. I guess miracles do happen, the biggest one being that an overwhelmingly high percentage of a supposedly intelligent populous thinks that one of the most important human biological functions is, in some way dirty if you have it outside of a silly ceremony. Banning contraception is like banning seatbelts in cars and then saying that the high road death rate is peoples' own fault for driving. Just think how many cases of food poisoning could be prevented if it suddenly became a sin to eat outside a Judeo/Christian ceremony. The Catholic Church's prevention of some of the most vulnerable populations in the world from getting contraception in favor of brainwashing ting them into thinking that sex is a sin is nothing less than an atrocity to which they should be taken to task for.


But of course having a serious argument with a catholic is like arguing with an android. The church goes to extraordinary lengths to make sure its members can't think for themselves: Catechism anyone? A perl script could present the same arguments, it may as well sit them in an  auditorium and hypnotize them.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by ZylonBane
Inability to answer a question is a reflection on you, not the universe. Ascribing all unexplained phenomenon to a magic man in the sky is the ultimate intellectual copout.


Not all unexplained penomenon, of course not. But there are definetly times when you have no choice but to acribe certain happenings to the intelligent and purposeful act of beings outside of this physical realm. I believe in God. I also believe in the existance of angels and demons. These is undoubtedly a spiritual realm "beyond" this physical world that we are aware of with our 5 senses - a realm with beings that can act, react, and affect things in this world. That is the only logical explanation to miracles and, more specifically, healings. Random coincidence of a miraculous healing occuring just as a person is being prayed for is so unbelieveable that it nears the level of the unbelievability of evolution.

Quote
Originally posted by ZylonBane
I said that?

I think this sums up Christianity pretty well (or not... eh, it's funny anyway)--


Ever hear of the Prophecy vs. Free Will argument? It basically asks how God can inform prophets of future events, and yet still allow us to have Free Will and make our own descisions. Personally, I've come up with a solution that satisfies me in every way.

I believe that God does not know the future as we think of it. He exists outside of time - it's like looking at an ant crawling along a ruler. He can see any point along this line of time that we are confined by, just as easily as we can see the 10cm mark from the 1cm mark. Obviously, time and the progression of events is much more complex and fluid than a simple ruler, but nevertheless the shoe fits. Since our descisions are also confined by time (one moment we are undecided, the next we have set out upon a course of action), God can see what our free choice is.

Quote
Originally posted by Kellan
And Sandwich, not to get into some kind of massive Holocaust debate too, but the Holocaust was more a result of social darwinism, blame for the loss of WWI, and hatred of the Jews' social position rather than an ancient religious hatred of Judaism because of an idea of 'Christ-killing' or something like that. The Jews had been emancipated in German society for decades.


The thing is that the Jewish people and the Jewish religion are inseperable - that's what held together the people over 500-odd years - that's what defines them. And don't tell me that it was a simple hatred of their social position as opposed to hatred of the "Jewish People" - were all those 6 million wealthy? No, but they all were forced to wear one of the symbols of thier religion, the Star of David.

And "Christ-killing"?? First of all, I don't believe that anyone "killed" Jesus - He sacrificed His life for the world, just like you or I would risk (and loose) our lives to save a family member from a burning house.

Second, the Nazis no more had the right to speak in the name of Christianity than did the Crusaders or Osama bin-Laden.

And now, to prevent leaving this post with a "yelling back at" tone: :) :cool: ;) :D
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill