Author Topic: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project  (Read 36658 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
Sorted.
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Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
I've left the SCP and associated projects as of last week.
Chief1983 is now leading this project.

What happened? Don't tell me acrimony on he internet has claimed another victim? :(
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Offline chief1983

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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
Catch someone on IRC sometime if you need to know.  This is about the Speedwagon (REO?  Get it?)
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
I just ran across one of my topics about upgrading the model format, as I've said a few times the graphics engine can't get much better than it is while we use the old model format.

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,47751.0.html

i did a quick re-read through the thread. and was curious if we could have 4x4 transform matrices on a per subobject basis. subobjects would be stored in their local frame of reference and then transformed by the matrix for final positioning. this would also allow each subobject to be rendered and collided separately from the model. this matrix could be computed against the parents transform so that each subobject mey be handled as any other model, requiring only a single extra matrix multiply, which could be performed on the opengl matrix stack. this would solve problems with transparency on subobjects, speed up collision detection and would help make subobject animation much easier and allow translation.

another idea might be to embed idx files within the model format, so as to eliminate the need for freespace to generate them, as they would be pre-converted for the engine.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 02:55:39 pm by Nuke »
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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
I've left the SCP and associated projects as of last week.
Chief1983 is now leading this project.

What happened? Don't tell me acrimony on he internet has claimed another victim? :(

Let's just say I've moved on to other projects and leave it at that.
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
i did a quick re-read through the thread. and was curious if we could have 4x4 transform matrices on a per subobject basis. unfortunately FS uses a 3X3 matrix with an additional offset vector, and there is not really a way to change this

another idea might be to embed idx files within the model format, so as to eliminate the need for freespace to generate them, as they would be pre-converted for the engine.OH YES, ****ING TRUTH!


I think there was a thread or two in the internal where I had some slightly more detailed specifications listed out, but I can't check that obviously.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 03:24:18 am by Bobboau »
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Offline Spicious

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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
I guess I can do maths and coding.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
In response to some possibly sarcastic comments by chief1983 on IRC about me having been listed as a team member,

I have got a decent amount of programming experience, much of it with OpenGL. And although I can't dedicate much time, I can offer occasional 'freelance' stuff. And as much as people may be sick having me around as an ideas guy, I do know a thing or two about graphics programming and theory.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
i did a quick re-read through the thread. and was curious if we could have 4x4 transform matrices on a per subobject basis. unfortunately FS uses a 3X3 matrix with an additional offset vector, and there is not really a way to change this

another idea might be to embed idx files within the model format, so as to eliminate the need for freespace to generate them, as they would be pre-converted for the engine.OH YES, ****ING TRUTH!


I think there was a thread or two in the internal where I had some slightly more detailed specifications listed out, but I can't check that obviously.

i think that the internal forum should at least be readable to everyone, even if only scp members are allowed to post. im sure there are some intresting reads in there.
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Offline chief1983

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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
Also some interesting flames, unfortunately.  Probably why it's internal :)
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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
Also some interesting flames, unfortunately.  Probably why it's internal :)

Roger that.
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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
I hope you guys do a good job with this product, but whatever you guys do, don't screw up anti-aliasing (*cough* post processing in 3.6.12 *cough*). There is no feature out there that is worth making the game an aliased, noisy mess to get, and if you're destroying a major image quality feature to implement a minor one, you're doing it wrong.

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
Well post-processing is a major feature, but it still shouldn't have broken AA.
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Offline Zacam

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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
_post processing_ dos NOT break AA.

Bloom on the other hand, breaks it quite happily. And that is one hell of an age old problem even for DX games. (Look at the chuck patch for Oblivion for ATI cards if you doubt).

However, there are ways to make bloom and AA somewhat co-operate with each other.
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Offline chief1983

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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
Ok good to know.  I thought I'd heard something like that before, but also thought that for a while it actually had broken AA in other ways besides just having bloom enabled.
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Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
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redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

 
Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
_post processing_ dos NOT break AA.

Bloom on the other hand, breaks it quite happily. And that is one hell of an age old problem even for DX games. (Look at the chuck patch for Oblivion for ATI cards if you doubt).

However, there are ways to make bloom and AA somewhat co-operate with each other.

That's good to hear. So how do I disable only bloom from the post processing effects?

Bloom breaking AA in commercial games used to be a problem a long time ago, nowadays pretty much all commercial games implement bloom in a way that doesn't break AA. That doesn't stop them from finding new features that do break AA (Unreal Engine 3 deferred shading is the biggie nowadays, although there are ways to code in workarounds (batman:AA), or do a more costly driver trick to get the same result). Nowadays many developers are going after consoles, where anti aliasing doesn't matter so much because of the greater distance away from the screen. On the PC though, aliasing and shimmering is very noticeable and is a huge factor. I try to use super sampling whenever I can.

 

Offline Fury

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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
Hery had working patch which allowed both PP/bloom and AA to be used together. Unfortunately Hery announced he is far too busy with his work and personal project to continue coding for FSO. However, we've sent a request he would at least send us diffs of the patches he worked on, including PP+AA patch.

This is not strictly a rendering engine related, but there should be increased focus to break the limits of being stuck to one CPU core. Every single new feature that gets added, slows the game down because not even the fastest CPU is enough for FSO as long as only one core is being utilized. To make things worse, GPU processing power is not used at all.

FSO would be incredible little beast if it could properly use GPU's and multi-threading. Of those two, GPU would give the largest performance boost I reckon.

 
Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
Fury`: FSO can't be multithreaded without rewriting a fair portion of the engine.
The data structure just aren't right for multithreading, and it would not be a fun thing to debug.
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Offline Thaeris

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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
A man(or woman)/robot/zod can dream, can he/she not?
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Offline DaBrain

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Re: Welcome to the Rendering Engine Overhaul Project
Well... considering that even cell phones will have multicore processors, I'd say at one point we have to support them.

The per-core performance currently doesn't increase that much anymore, but the number of cores increases even more.

Intel will release a six core cpu this year. AMD already has a 12 core cpu. (http://vr-zone.com/articles/amd-begins-shipment-of-12-core-magny-cours-cpu/8463.html) (Yeah, I know it's for server.)

When Intel releases a 12 core cpu with HTT, it will have 24 threads...
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