It would be hope that the original developers and the BP team can join together one day and maybe make an official sequel which integrates the BP story line and work into the "official" timeline and maybe make that official sequel possible one day.
"a lot of very interesting points which i won't directly copy to make this a shorter post."
"a lot of very interesting points which i won't directly copy to make this a shorter post."
You do raise one of my primary concerns with BP. When I first saw that opening cutscene with the taking of artemis station, I was invigorated to get right to the fight. 5 seconds later, wall of text. Granted, it was a damn fine well-written wall of text and did much to push the story, but it was still a wall of text. However, after the first one you sort of get used to it. In BP, its more than a "jump to this point and destroy these guys" kinda mission outline. Instead, its a "Your an important part of the workings of the universe and these missions are critical steps in your progress" kinda mission outline. And so those walls of text serve to give backstory, whether it be emotional, political, or sociological backstory.
About your other point, I think it took me 6 tries toSpoiler:take down the carthage in "Her Finest Hour"so I won't be the first to say that BP can be difficult. But, that's what makes it so rewarding!
/end rant
In BP, its more than a "jump to this point and destroy these guys" kinda mission outline. Instead, its a "Your an important part of the workings of the universe and these missions are critical steps in your progress" kinda mission outline.I suspect that's why BP2 lost me, for me the scales have shifted too far to one side and it's too far a departure from the original premise that I was a cog in the wheel in FreeSpace 2.
Wait, did you jump straight into Tenebra without playing the first two acts of War in Heaven?QuoteIn BP, its more than a "jump to this point and destroy these guys" kinda mission outline. Instead, its a "Your an important part of the workings of the universe and these missions are critical steps in your progress" kinda mission outline.I suspect that's why BP2 lost me, for me the scales have shifted too far to one side and it's too far a departure from the original premise that I was a cog in the wheel in FreeSpace 2.
Looking at it this way I find Blue Planet is a fascinating contrast to ID's games, games that were built with John Carmacks belief that storyline in a video game is like a storyline in a porno. I suspect it was ID's and John Carmack's inability to elaborate on their core storylines that left their games regarded as soulless.
Blue Planet is the exact opposite, their is more story than game, especially early into Blue Planet 2, so much so that for me I'm having to take a break.
After the wall of text that I realized I had no choice but to read after failing 5 - 10X's on hard with the mission having lost it's fun element. I dropped the difficulty to infantile and finished it. I won't revisit, it's not improvisation friendly. The next mission had me talking to the shadow council where more of the story is discussed. And then the next mission instead of being a nice simple fight required I scan transports to find a specific one. I didn't launch it, I fully understand how most would enjoy it but I regret to say BP2 has lost me.
The game is beautiful and plays perfectly but I regret to say this'll be my last post in the BP discussion area...... for now.
bloated, go into the campaign list and make sure you have Blue Planet War in Heaven 1 selected, you need to play that first before War in Heaven 2.Wait, did you jump straight into Tenebra without playing the first two acts of War in Heaven?QuoteIn BP, its more than a "jump to this point and destroy these guys" kinda mission outline. Instead, its a "Your an important part of the workings of the universe and these missions are critical steps in your progress" kinda mission outline.I suspect that's why BP2 lost me, for me the scales have shifted too far to one side and it's too far a departure from the original premise that I was a cog in the wheel in FreeSpace 2.
Looking at it this way I find Blue Planet is a fascinating contrast to ID's games, games that were built with John Carmacks belief that storyline in a video game is like a storyline in a porno. I suspect it was ID's and John Carmack's inability to elaborate on their core storylines that left their games regarded as soulless.
Blue Planet is the exact opposite, their is more story than game, especially early into Blue Planet 2, so much so that for me I'm having to take a break.
After the wall of text that I realized I had no choice but to read after failing 5 - 10X's on hard with the mission having lost it's fun element. I dropped the difficulty to infantile and finished it. I won't revisit, it's not improvisation friendly. The next mission had me talking to the shadow council where more of the story is discussed. And then the next mission instead of being a nice simple fight required I scan transports to find a specific one. I didn't launch it, I fully understand how most would enjoy it but I regret to say BP2 has lost me.
The game is beautiful and plays perfectly but I regret to say this'll be my last post in the BP discussion area...... for now.
bloated, go into the campaign list and make sure you have Blue Planet War in Heaven 1 selected, you need to play that first before War in Heaven 2.I was REPLAYING BP until the mission where I was supposed to convince someone to stop being depressed and fatalistic. The two of us fly around talking about whatever, then after I don't know how long, some fighters show to alleviate this psychological break in the action. Suddenly my weapons fail so I have to fly around in circles avoiding enemy fire while diagnosing my ship. Then the mission ends with the NPC being happy and committing to being less disenfrachised. The worst part of that mission was my failure the 1st time because I chose to answer questions in the way someone would if they totally didn't care and were just trying to get past it. Because of that I was forced to replay it and choose questions that would make the NPC happier. If anyone has BP fresh in their mind, this is also the part of the BP campaign where the UEF is losing quite badly and most missions end with tragedies & debriefings that talk about how their was nothing you could have done. It's just prior to the capture of the TEV's manufacturing ship...... Because I had finished this campaign and knew how it ended I figured I'd "mozy" over to BP2 in hopes of having fun & advancing the storyline...... lol.
Is their a way to skip missions in Blue Planet, I just tried to watch the "Her Finest Hour walkthrough" and couldn't stay interested in that, let alone bother with the mission.bloated, I've noticed that you've posted a lot of very critical comments on BP here. Perhaps you should focus your time on a different mod if your that disappointed with BP.
time limits, multiple objectives combined with limited armaments and forcing the player to hide and not fight.... seriously? Does Blue Planet2 have any fun missions in it?
p.s. yes I know, I'm considering it.
pretty sure you can go balls deep if you want, don't think there's anything forcing stealth on youneg, mission limits time, ship, and loadout options.
just ctrl+k everything you want and knock out the carthages engines for the winthanks for this, wasn't aware of ctrl+k, mission isn't harsh, the problem is it isn't fun, once I get past it I'm hoping their is something better to be had.
bloated, I've noticed that you've posted a lot of very critical comments on BP here.I'm conflicted and it's playing out here.
Perhaps you should focus your time on a different mod if your that disappointed with BP.Quote from: mentioned previouslyp.s. yes I know, I'm considering it.
thanks for the recommendation, I'll look into it.
I've been attempting to complete the mission "Her Finest Hour" to no avail, the mission is so heavily scripted by it's time limit, dictated fighter and armament options and the sheer number of objectives that it's not really a mission so much as a scripted set of choices that have to be executed in the right order.
Nice looking game though and if it was a cartoon it'd be decent to watch.
I've played Her Finest Hour dozens of times (literally; I was tracking down a bug at the time, but I still played the mission through to completion many times in the process). I can assure you that the mission is completable in quite the variety of different ways. You are not forced to stay in stealth all the time; it's just a good idea. Similarly, you aren't forced to take out targets in any specific order; some things are just easier to kill first. Even when it comes down to calling in ships, you aren't required to call in any specific strike package (or even any extra assets, although I'd be surprised if you could finish the mission without some additional firepower).Quote from: TrickMagnetpretty sure you can go balls deep if you want, don't think there's anything forcing stealth on youneg, mission limits time, ship, and loadout options.
I've played Her Finest Hour dozens of times (literally; I was tracking down a bug at the time, but I still played the mission through to completion many times in the process).I've no doubt that one who's been involved in the process would know what to do, The worst part of that comment is that once the way is discovered the scripted nature of the mission leaves it being exceptionally easy to replicate.
bloated, I've noticed that you've posted a lot of very critical comments on BP here.been serving a purpose.
Act 3 wasn't exactly my cup of tea, but it was nice to see what the FS2 engine could do.I agree fully, when Her Finest Hour launched I couldn't help but reflect on how much work has been done to the FS engine to bring it forward, I'm hitting the burners on my stealth fighter and just watching it all.... didn't even think about saving Serenity.... which died soon after as I aimlessly flew around taking it all in.
My biggest gripe was the lack of voice acting, but that problem is due to be solved and I am looking forward to the director's cut.looking forward to it as well.
My biggest gripe was the lack of voice acting, but that problem is due to be solved and I am looking forward to the director's cut.Only acts 1 & 2 are going to be voice acted in the upcoming release, you know.
I always thought about BP as an interactive movie, rather than a normal game or mod.that's why I called it a modern day text adventure.
if you grew attached to the storyline you take the price to fight yourself through it. At least that's what happened to me.I beat every mission, but in regards to the 2nd point not really.Quoteit is possible to beat every mission in different ways
I gotta say, Blue Planet blew my mind and took me deeper into the rabbits burrow than I ever expected.Some real questions come to mind when I read this, The original FS/FS2 team are no longer involved in FS at all so in order for me personally to be blown away by the story requires I just assume the BP team is the original FS/FS2 team because their vision is their own.
BP has a specialized target group, I think.currently that's by design and if that's what they want then it's fine but it doesn't have to be.
Since almost everyone here is playing at hard, at least, you guys should be used to some extreme action, anyway.it's the lack of action combined with it's scripted nature that's in your words "pushed BP2 into targeting a specialized audience" which again isn't bad if that was the goal. But if it wasn't the goal some minor tweaks could certainly broaden it's appeal.
When I first started playing BP2 and even when I was playing BP I was thinking I'd get ahold of him and we could do the voice work for the game. But then as I realized how much their was and how much would be involvedHehe, I had the same feeling about BP2. Thankfully, the devs are working on it, already. ^^
I think the VA might help clarify potentially confusing situations in-mission, but I don't think their goal is to make playing the game less of an ordeal.I don't think so. A lot of people skip walls-of-text to get to the action. Not so if someone reads it to them. Lots of my friends do that, at least...
[...]
VA definitely won't help with wall-of-textness since everybody just reads ahead of the voice anyway. It adds flavor though!
I don't think so. A lot of people skip walls-of-text to get to the action. Not so if someone reads it to them. Lots of my friends do that, at least.I'm inclined to agree with that, when I wasn't skipping the wall of text the "dot dot dot, blah blah blah, dot dot dot" was more distracting then enhancing.
I can't imagine playing BP without knowing the basic relationships of the characters. It makes missions like Delenda Est much less emotional. Act 3 without the real story would be kind of emotionless.different approaches to achieve the same goals.
BP is highly immersive because of its story and mission design. Wing Commander Saga, on the other hand, creates immersion through a different approachI played a beta of WCS and never got around to the final. I found it dated in a lot of ways and couldn't get excited about it. I should probably revisit it now that it's long since been finished and polished.
That said Delende Est was BP and BP had a balance between gameplay and dialogue that BP2 lacks....Er? Delenda Est is BP2. Are you confusing "BP/BP2" with "War in Heaven 1" and "War in Heaven 2"?
.Er? Delenda Est is BP2. Are you confusing "BP/BP2" with "War in Heaven 1" and "War in Heaven 2"?meh, maybe, probably, love the mission but it's location amongst the rest is a blur.
Ultimately, I believe that War in Heaven has been once massive experiment which has taken the FS engine to new levels and succeeded.I agree, it's grown experimental.
If I was new to BP the 3rd installment would be a failure, not because it's bad but because too much is expected up front for a new player to consider. As a longtime player it was ok but I really want to play 4 & 5. In this way fair or unfair 3 seemed less standalone and more a stepping stone.I highly doubt anybody is expected to enter a series with the third act of the second game.
wow gee there is sure is a lot of whining and not much actual criticism here.If you are unhappy with the discussion, don't follow it. A limited disclaimer isn't a blanket excuse & No one else entered the searches that got you here. If bothered then don't repeat the actions.Quotethe bp team even says that bp was made for players who had already played freespace 2 not new people.Quoteugh.
I really liked BP but there is way too much text, and its an unforgiving game. So you die a lot and read the text dozens of times and it loses its charm. Plus in the later game you end going through the dream sequence with spiders and creepy screen effects a few times before getting it right.That's the heavy scripting & their were 2 endings to the final mission.
I highly doubt anybody is expected to enter a series with the third act of the second game.true, but then anyone can play Half Life 2 Episode 2 and enjoy it without the others, I played FS2 before I played FS1, Mech 3 before 2 or 1, WarCraft 3 before 2 or 1, all of these games have epic storylines yet are standalones. It's not about what's expected, it's about what can happen. FS2 was what got me to play FS1, Mech 3 was what got me to play Mech 2.
If you are unhappy with the discussion, don't follow it.
We humored you for a whileYour "humor" isn't a requisite and while I'm glad you liked them, my voicing concerns isn't an excuse. You don't get to dictate how ppl support your opinion on anything let alone for how long.Quotea lot of us enjoy them.QuoteIts like going on to the Half Life forums and posting dozens of messsages about how the story is nothing but a five hour player ego stroke.
Im not sure if you are talking about me but Im sorry if I was focusing too much on the negative aspects. I really liked Aquarius all the way through especially with the new fighters.part of my post was in response to you & yes and I agree completely.
For War in Heaven I loved the Kentauroi with the insane agility and reverse thrusters. Parts 1-2 were solid and part 3 was the part I was more complaining about. Its like Tenebra was very experimental so the devs were able to do plenty of cool new things but they couldnt polish it as much as the earlier parts which were just upgrades to regular freespace.
Bloated, have you simply considered that BP is simply *not* for you instead of constantly whining about how hard it is? This entire thread all you have really done is complain about how you dislike BP and some of it's features, instead of actually *providing* anything helpful.sigh, I'll repeat, I finished BP2, I finished all of it, it's amazing to me that after saying I liked & finished it several times that ppl still recommend I not finish or bother with the game I bothered with and finished.
Instead of complaining about how you disliked the ending, why not try explaining *why*? Find what reasons you didn't like the ending/gameplay for and make suggestions as to how it could be improved? It's not like it's particularly a difficult thing to do.
you are literally demonstrating the equivalent of "going on to the Half Life forums and posting dozens of messages about how the story is nothing but a five hour player ego stroke."Not at all, I'm wondering what changed, why, how, could it be improved. But if that was the case and others joined in then it'd be all good. Discussion is good, It's the web, we don't need your permission.
You've made your objections to Blue Planet clear.Then leave. What I find interesting is that on page 3 (beyond what you decided is acceptable) new posters joined the conversation, none annoyed, most understood the context, a few seem happy to have the opportunity. But now You've decided you need to be the center of the conversation you don't want others to have.
What I find interesting is that on page 3 (beyond what you decided is acceptable) new posters joined the conversation, none annoyed, most understood the context, a few seem happy to have the opportunity. But now You've decided you need to be the center of the conversation you don't want to have.If you're waiting for a flood of users to tell you you're being annoying before you stop repeating yourself ad nauseum then please just stop posting.
If you're waiting for a flood of users to tell you you're being annoying before you stop repeating yourself ad nauseum then please just stop posting.Mars composed a perfect reply, this conversation was likely going to die which while unfortunate seems to be what some want but then you decided you needed it to continue. Conversations end when conversations stop.
Instead it was a cinematic.It's not typical, no. But keep in mind that if it was possible, WiH, the whole 5 acts, would have been one release. That couldn't be done because if it had been tried, the project would be long dead. It's not fair to judge act 3 as a standalone because it was never meant to be one in any way. Act 4 is going to be like this too. Speaking as a fan of BP, I really don't think it's something that needs to be worked on. The campaign doesn't need recap missions and half a dozen "as you know" speeches. If you don't judge WiH as a single campaign, then I can't say I blame anyone for thinking your criticism unfounded.Quote from: AdmiralRalwoodI highly doubt anybody is expected to enter a series with the third act of the second game.true, but then anyone can play Half Life 2 Episode 2 and enjoy it without the others, I played FS2 before I played FS1, Mech 3 before 2 or 1, WarCraft 3 before 2 or 1, all of these games have epic storylines yet are standalones. It's not about what's expected, it's about what can happen. FS2 was what got me to play FS1, Mech 3 was what got me to play Mech 2.
BP2 is discouraging in that way.
What was it I disliked about BP2.The text is actually a legitimate criticism. Unfortunately, the team can't afford to spend thousands on voice actors. Battuta's already paying quite a bit out of his own pocket for the bigger parts. And I can promise you that BP2 was massively edited.
1 The Walls of Text: This post you are reading has been condensed a few times, BP2 doesn't feel like it was. Video Games are a visual medium, that's an asset that can be explored.
2 Time limits: I'm not sure every mission doesn't have them outside of the discussion missions. look at a list of the top 5 complaints in regards to any video game and Time limits is right there alongside escorting NPC's because they limit player options.I can't speak for anyone else, but I think the few time limits there are were fairly generous, but succeeded at adding pressure where necessary. Yes they limit player options. They're meant to. I fail to see why this is a problem.
3 The heavy scripting: while all missions are scripted to a point BP2's involved dictating how players do the mission, what objectives and in what order, it goes well beyond limiting weapon and fighter choices, how many missions dictated stealth only? I think all of them limited weapon & ship choices but one, and it was short and to the point. I'm not saying get rid of the scripted missions but throw in some fun missions as well to break the monotony/restore the balance.Out of 17(?) actual missions with gameplay, I think 1 is explicitly stealth only (Everything Is Permitted). The other two are more stealth encouraged. The first (Nothing Is True) is perfectly completeable without being stealthy at all, it just makes your life easier. In the second (Her Finest Hour), it's just in your best interest, because you'll get shot to **** if you aren't stealthy. No stealth missions at all in Acts 1 and 2.
4 The story centric focus at the expense of actual gameplay: BP2 was more story than game, some missions managed integrating story into the mission. The battle against Zinny & Zero was great at showing discord between TEV elements but most of the missions didn't bother with this.This is very much a personal taste thing. If you want more shooting and less story, I refer you to my above answer. Although I will tell you that Act 4 is much closer to Acts 1 and 2 in terms of action.
5 no missions that allowed the player to indulge.What does this even mean?
6 missions that weren't missions, just more text.Just more story, or character development. I personally value that far more than shooting yet another wave of Tev fighters.
7 The ending was a missed opportunity. 2 options, one goes to the cinematic, the other could have been an epic blood bath, instead it was also a cinematic.Universal Truth 2 wasn't meant to be a combat mission. It's a mission about revelations, and it takes place in your head. It would be a trite thing indeed if it was something you could affect with guns.
It's not fair to judge act 3 as a standalone because it was never meant to be one in any way. Act 4 is going to be like this too.their is a misunderstanding. My comments have nothing to do with the story. As a standalone game, act 3 isn't 100% solid.
Yes, BP missions are heavily scripted. And you know what? I like that. The missions feel alive. There's stuff going on that I, in my single-person fighter, can't (and shouldn't) be able to affect. BP deliberately moved away from Alpha 1-type missions where you save the day by doing everything.Except that it's all about Alpha 1 saving the day in only one way, and unfortunately the missions don't feel alive more than once because of that. Her Finest Hour is the example, it's almost impossible to fail once you know the path and it's not alone.
5 no missions that allowed the player to indulge.One does not require a sacrifice of the other.QuoteWhat does this even mean?QuoteI personally value that far more than shooting yet another wave of Tev fighters.
The ending was a missed opportunity. 2 options, one goes to the cinematic, the other could have been an epic blood bath, instead it was also a cinematic.As a player we choose option 1 & advance the story getting us the closing cinematic in the process. That's great for the viewer but not the player.QuoteIt would be a trite thing indeed if it was something you could affect with guns.
I really wish General Battuta was still here, because he's damn good at explaining WiH's whole design process.thanks for your time and patience, you guys have done excellent work. Truly, I don't mean to offend. But I was concerned.
Act 3 isn't meant to be a standalone game. Stop thinking of it like one. If you're not looking at all the released parts of WiH at once, you're doing it wrong. You may as well be saying Act 3 is a poor RPG. Technically correct, but irrelevant because that isn't what it was meant to be.QuoteIt's not fair to judge act 3 as a standalone because it was never meant to be one in any way. Act 4 is going to be like this too.their is a misunderstanding. My comments have nothing to do with the story. As a standalone game, act 3 isn't 100% solid.
One does not require a sacrifice of the other.Hundreds of missions like that have already been made. That's not an exaggeration. I don't play BP to play missions I've already played dozens of times in other campaigns.
A mission that involves a patrol destroying GEF ships, no time requirements, no escort requirement, just a nice dogfight with maybe a cruiser thrown in for good measure.
As a player we choose option 1 & advance the story getting us the closing cinematic in the process. That's great for the viewer but not the player.Again, it's a mission that takes place in your head. It's not a mission where you shoot things, because what you're dealing with isn't something you can kill with guns, real or imagined. It's not the Tev bombers or fighters your mind is conjuring that'll kill you, it's the other **** lurking in the Nagari network, things that your mind can't make sense of. A dogfight tacked onto the end of it would be brainless pandering with no meaningful relation to the rest of the mission.
Make option 2 an Easter egg.... You the player battle it out till death because this mission is only going to end one way. This mission won't change anything, it's option 2. If the player is the last UED standing then mark it with the TEV reinforcements coming in from a distance that allows for reflection then arm them to the teeth and finish it.
Act 3 wasn't incredible or terrible. It was as others have mentioned, far more like an interactive movie than a game. To me the balance was off. The points I've made are symptons. A cppl of brainless missions +The Easter Egg would have likely restored the balance.I think this is a fundamental disagreement between you and me. I don't want brainless missions. I don't want filler missions. And I don't want the same jump-in-kill-things missions I've played before, but with BP ships. WiH act 1 and 2 reconstructed FS2's fighter gameplay. Act 3 was meant to be something completely new, and it was.
thanks for your time and patience, you guys have done excellent work. Truly, I don't mean to offend. But I was concerned.You're not offending. Not me, at least. I definitely disagree with you, but respectful criticism is always a good thing.
p.s. to be concise I limited the quotes and responded in a way that I hope addressed more than just the quoted, I did read everything.
can someone just ****ing lock this thread
it is a mountain of ****
Act 3 isn't meant to be a standalone game. Stop thinking of it like one.I'd always thought this was a conscious decision and tbc I never thought Act 3 was a standalone. I raised the point that it wasn't & someone debated it, nothing more.
Hundreds of missions like that have already been made. That's not an exaggeration. I don't play BP to play missions I've already played dozens of times in other campaigns.1st quote: I've got 2 endings for you to consider. FreeSpace 1 and FreeSpace 2.Quote from: AesaarIf it was a full campaign, I might agree with you. But it's not. Acts 1 and 2 came before, and acts 4 and 5 will come after. You have to look at it within that framework. WiH is the semi-standalone project here.Quote from: DariusIt looks to me that the worry here is whether tenebra represents the direction which future missions are going to take gameplay-wise.
Again, it's a mission that takes place in your head. It's not a mission where you shoot thingsIn my head would be acceptable. It's a game that I feel like I'm almost not allowed to play. I don't understand the resistance. their were 2 options by design, one continued the story, the other ended it then and there, No act 4 or 5 because I'd chosen to die in my dream. We all knew it was a dream. Anyone playing future acts would know they chose option 1.
I think this is a fundamental disagreement between you and me. I don't play BP to play missions I've already played dozens of times in other campaigns, I don't want filler missions, And I don't want the same jump-in-kill-things missions I've played before.I'm inclined to agree that it is fundamental. 3 traditional missions would have made act 3 more accessible.
this attitude of jumping on anyone who doesn't think BP is fantastic drives people away from playing it.Nothing more toxic than an eagerly offended cult of personality.