Author Topic: Obsolutely Amazing!  (Read 12429 times)

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Offline bloated

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you are literally demonstrating the equivalent of "going on to the Half Life forums and posting dozens of messages about how the story is nothing but a five hour player ego stroke."
Not at all, I'm wondering what changed, why, how, could it be improved.  But if that was the case and others joined in then it'd be all good.   Discussion is good, It's the web, we don't need your permission.
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You've made your objections to Blue Planet clear.
Then leave.  What I find interesting is that on page 3 (beyond what you decided is acceptable) new posters joined the conversation, none annoyed, most understood the context, a few seem happy to have the opportunity.  But now You've decided you need to be the center of the conversation you don't want others to have.

I cited the devolution of the Star Wars franchise post Empire Strikes Back early on and what likely caused it.  You & I are in a thread discussing BP2, a video game that is no longer considered such by many.  They are calling it an "experiment", "an interactive movie", "a modern day text adventure", they mention that "BP has a specialized target group".  These aren't negatives, or criticisms, possibly praise, or they might be attempts to quantify what's grown difficult to.  The potential signs of movement to the fringe.

BSG wasn't big on outside input which explains the show's loss of 70% of it's viewers, it's early cancellation, & why the spinoffs failed.

p.s. we are on page 4 now.





« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 09:48:23 pm by bloated »

 

Offline Mars

  • I have no originality
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Well, I'll butt out then.

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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What I find interesting is that on page 3 (beyond what you decided is acceptable) new posters joined the conversation, none annoyed, most understood the context, a few seem happy to have the opportunity.  But now You've decided you need to be the center of the conversation you don't want to have.
If you're waiting for a flood of users to tell you you're being annoying before you stop repeating yourself ad nauseum then please just stop posting.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Codethulhu GitHub wgah'nagl fhtagn.

schrödinbug (noun) - a bug that manifests itself in running software after a programmer notices that the code should never have worked in the first place.

When you gaze long into BMPMAN, BMPMAN also gazes into you.

"I am one of the best FREDders on Earth" -General Battuta

<Aesaar> literary criticism is vladimir putin

<MageKing17> "There's probably a reason the code is the way it is" is a very dangerous line of thought. :P
<MageKing17> Because the "reason" often turns out to be "nobody noticed it was wrong".
(the very next day)
<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
<MageKing17> "That doesn't really make sense to me, but I'll assume it was being done for a reason."
<MageKing17> **** ME
<MageKing17> THE REASON IS PEOPLE ARE STUPID
<MageKing17> ESPECIALLY ME

<MageKing17> God damn, I do not understand how this is breaking.
<MageKing17> Everything points to "this should work fine", and yet it's clearly not working.
<MjnMixael> 2 hours later... "God damn, how did this ever work at all?!"
(...)
<MageKing17> so
<MageKing17> more than two hours
<MageKing17> but once again we have reached the inevitable conclusion
<MageKing17> How did this code ever work in the first place!?

<@The_E> Welcome to OpenGL, where standards compliance is optional, and error reporting inconsistent

<MageKing17> It was all working perfectly until I actually tried it on an actual mission.

<IronWorks> I am useful for FSO stuff again. This is a red-letter day!
* z64555 erases "Thursday" and rewrites it in red ink

<MageKing17> TIL the entire homing code is held up by shoestrings and duct tape, basically.

 

Offline bloated

  • 27
Quote from: AdmiralRalwood
If you're waiting for a flood of users to tell you you're being annoying before you stop repeating yourself ad nauseum then please just stop posting.
Mars composed a perfect reply, this conversation was likely going to die which while unfortunate seems to be what some want but then you decided you needed it to continue.  Conversations end when conversations stop.

In a real world conversation, is it fine for someone outside of it to rudely interrupted just to call you a whiner and tell you to shut up?  The self entitlement displayed by some is impressive.  I've been exploring my position from multiple angles, considering others comments/views, trying to see what they see and then re-examining mine.  In the process occasionally offering possible solutions to explore, their is nothing wrong with it or anyone else doing it.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 06:56:21 pm by bloated »

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Can we lay off, please?  bloated has raised his points about BP, and I don't think the mod's so fragile we need to pounce on him just because it's not his kind of campaign.  The only comments that aren't welcome are the ones that say "X sucks" with no additional explanation.  bloated hasn't done that.  I disagree with him, but I don't think he's done anything wrong here.

I'm going to be adressing a few points.  Do keep in mind that I joined the team in Feb. 2013, after Act 3's release, and I'm only responsible for ship models.  I'm in no way responsible for BP being what it is.

Instead it was a cinematic.
Quote from: AdmiralRalwood
I highly doubt anybody is expected to enter a series with the third act of the second game.
true, but then anyone can play Half Life 2 Episode 2 and enjoy it without the others, I played FS2 before I played FS1, Mech 3 before 2 or 1, WarCraft 3 before 2 or 1, all of these games have epic storylines yet are standalones.  It's not about what's expected, it's about what can happen.  FS2 was what got me to play FS1, Mech 3 was what got me to play Mech 2.

BP2 is discouraging in that way.
It's not typical, no.  But keep in mind that if it was possible, WiH, the whole 5 acts, would have been one release.  That couldn't be done because if it had been tried, the project would be long dead.  It's not fair to judge act 3 as a standalone because it was never meant to be one in any way.  Act 4 is going to be like this too.  Speaking as a fan of BP, I really don't think it's something that needs to be worked on.  The campaign doesn't need recap missions and half a dozen "as you know" speeches.  If you don't judge WiH as a single campaign, then I can't say I blame anyone for thinking your criticism unfounded.

You don't complain that the plot of a TV miniseries makes no sense if you pick it up at episode 6.

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What was it I disliked about BP2.

1 The Walls of Text: This post you are reading has been condensed a few times, BP2 doesn't feel like it was.  Video Games are a visual medium, that's an asset that can be explored.
The text is actually a legitimate criticism.  Unfortunately, the team can't afford to spend thousands on voice actors.  Battuta's already paying quite a bit out of his own pocket for the bigger parts.  And I can promise you that BP2 was massively edited.

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2 Time limits:  I'm not sure every mission doesn't have them outside of the discussion missions.  look at a list of the top 5 complaints in regards to any video game and Time limits is right there alongside escorting NPC's because they limit player options.
  I can't speak for anyone else, but I think the few time limits there are were fairly generous, but succeeded at adding pressure where necessary.  Yes they limit player options.  They're meant to.  I fail to see why this is a problem.

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3 The heavy scripting: while all missions are scripted to a point BP2's involved dictating how players do the mission, what objectives and in what order, it goes well beyond limiting weapon and fighter choices, how many missions dictated stealth only?  I think all of them limited weapon & ship choices but one, and it was short and to the point.  I'm not saying get rid of the scripted missions but throw in some fun missions as well to break the monotony/restore the balance.
Out of 17(?) actual missions with gameplay, I think 1 is explicitly stealth only (Everything Is Permitted).  The other two are more stealth encouraged.  The first (Nothing Is True) is perfectly completeable without being stealthy at all, it just makes your life easier.  In the second (Her Finest Hour), it's just in your best interest, because you'll get shot to **** if you aren't stealthy.  No stealth missions at all in Acts 1 and 2.

Yes, BP missions are heavily scripted.  And you know what?  I like that.  The missions feel alive.  There's stuff going on that I, in my single-person fighter, can't (and shouldn't) be able to affect.  BP deliberately moved away from Alpha 1-type missions where you save the day by doing everything.  There are other campaigns available if that's what you're looking for.  Derelict, for example, is quite good.

The third thing about scripting is that it's necessary.  BP is a capship-heavy campaign, and FSO's capship AI is really not the best.  I wish it was good enough that you could plop ship down and they'd fight intelligently, but it's not.  Dynamic, interesting capship combat requires heavy scripting.  No way around it.

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4 The story centric focus at the expense of actual gameplay:  BP2 was more story than game, some missions managed integrating story into the mission.  The battle against Zinny & Zero was great at showing discord between TEV elements but most of the missions didn't bother with this.
  This is very much a personal taste thing.  If you want more shooting and less story, I refer you to my above answer.  Although I will tell you that Act 4 is much closer to Acts 1 and 2 in terms of action.

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5 no missions that allowed the player to indulge.
What does this even mean?

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6 missions that weren't missions, just more text.
Just more story, or character development.  I personally value that far more than shooting yet another wave of Tev fighters.

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7 The ending was a missed opportunity.  2 options, one goes to the cinematic, the other could have been an epic blood bath, instead it was also a cinematic.
Universal Truth 2 wasn't meant to be a combat mission.  It's a mission about revelations, and it takes place in your head.  It would be a trite thing indeed if it was something you could affect with guns. 



I really wish General Battuta was still here, because he's damn good at explaining WiH's whole design process.  I can't hope to match him.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 01:28:32 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline bloated

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It's not fair to judge act 3 as a standalone because it was never meant to be one in any way.  Act 4 is going to be like this too.
their is a misunderstanding.  My comments have nothing to do with the story.   As a standalone game, act 3 isn't 100% solid.
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Yes, BP missions are heavily scripted.  And you know what?  I like that.  The missions feel alive.  There's stuff going on that I, in my single-person fighter, can't (and shouldn't) be able to affect.  BP deliberately moved away from Alpha 1-type missions where you save the day by doing everything.
Except that it's all about Alpha 1 saving the day in only one way, and unfortunately the missions don't feel alive more than once because of that.  Her Finest Hour is the example, it's almost impossible to fail once you know the path and it's not alone.
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5 no missions that allowed the player to indulge.
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What does this even mean?
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I personally value that far more than shooting yet another wave of Tev fighters.
One does not require a sacrifice of the other.

A mission that involves a patrol destroying GEF ships, no time requirements, no escort requirement, just a nice dogfight with maybe a cruiser thrown in for good measure.  In the case of act3, it could have been the catalyst that lead to forcing the GEF's doomsday scenario.  OR:  A raiding mission... TEV's been building up, fine, let the player join raiding parties sent out to stem the flow of reinforcements.  The players raid succeeds, others fail, as a player we won't hate the TEV's less.
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The ending was a missed opportunity.  2 options, one goes to the cinematic, the other could have been an epic blood bath, instead it was also a cinematic.
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It would be a trite thing indeed if it was something you could affect with guns.
As a player we choose option 1 & advance the story getting us the closing cinematic in the process.  That's great for the viewer but not the player.

Make option 2 an Easter egg.... You the player battle it out till death because this mission is only going to end one way.  This mission won't change anything, it's option 2.  If the player is the last UED standing then mark it with  the TEV reinforcements coming in from a distance that allows for reflection then arm them to the teeth and finish it.

Act 3 wasn't incredible or terrible.  It was as others have mentioned, far more like an interactive movie than a game.  To me the balance was off.  The points I've made are symptons.  A cppl of brainless missions +The Easter Egg would have likely restored the balance.
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I really wish General Battuta was still here, because he's damn good at explaining WiH's whole design process.
thanks for your time and patience, you guys have done excellent work.  Truly, I don't mean to offend.  But I was concerned.

p.s. to be concise I limited the quotes and responded in a way that I hope addressed more than just the quoted, I did read everything.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 07:11:38 pm by bloated »

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
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It's not fair to judge act 3 as a standalone because it was never meant to be one in any way.  Act 4 is going to be like this too.
their is a misunderstanding.  My comments have nothing to do with the story.   As a standalone game, act 3 isn't 100% solid.
Act 3 isn't meant to be a standalone game.  Stop thinking of it like one.  If you're not looking at all the released parts of WiH at once, you're doing it wrong.  You may as well be saying Act 3 is a poor RPG.  Technically correct, but irrelevant because that isn't what it was meant to be.


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One does not require a sacrifice of the other.

A mission that involves a patrol destroying GEF ships, no time requirements, no escort requirement, just a nice dogfight with maybe a cruiser thrown in for good measure.
Hundreds of missions like that have already been made.  That's not an exaggeration.  I don't play BP to play missions I've already played dozens of times in other campaigns.

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As a player we choose option 1 & advance the story getting us the closing cinematic in the process.  That's great for the viewer but not the player.

Make option 2 an Easter egg.... You the player battle it out till death because this mission is only going to end one way.  This mission won't change anything, it's option 2.  If the player is the last UED standing then mark it with  the TEV reinforcements coming in from a distance that allows for reflection then arm them to the teeth and finish it.
Again, it's a mission that takes place in your head.  It's not a mission where you shoot things, because what you're dealing with isn't something you can kill with guns, real or imagined.  It's not the Tev bombers or fighters your mind is conjuring that'll kill you, it's the other **** lurking in the Nagari network, things that your mind can't make sense of.  A dogfight tacked onto the end of it would be brainless pandering with no meaningful relation to the rest of the mission.

Any Tev ships you imagine can't hurt you any more than a ship you might imagine at this moment.  Universal Truth 2 does not operate on the "your mind makes it real" principle. 

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Act 3 wasn't incredible or terrible.  It was as others have mentioned, far more like an interactive movie than a game.  To me the balance was off.  The points I've made are symptons.  A cppl of brainless missions +The Easter Egg would have likely restored the balance.
I think this is a fundamental disagreement between you and me.  I don't want brainless missions.  I don't want filler missions.  And I don't want the same jump-in-kill-things missions I've played before, but with BP ships.  WiH act 1 and 2 reconstructed FS2's fighter gameplay.  Act 3 was meant to be something completely new, and it was.

If it was a full campaign, I might agree with you.  But it's not.  Acts 1 and 2 came before, and acts 4 and 5 will come after.  You have to look at it within that framework.  WiH is the semi-standalone project here.

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thanks for your time and patience, you guys have done excellent work.  Truly, I don't mean to offend.  But I was concerned.

p.s. to be concise I limited the quotes and responded in a way that I hope addressed more than just the quoted, I did read everything.
You're not offending.  Not me, at least.  I definitely disagree with you, but respectful criticism is always a good thing.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 01:41:25 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline Darius

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It looks to me that the worry here is whether tenebra represents the direction which future missions  are going to take gameplay-wise. Taken in the context of the narrative arc (the fedayeen being a SpecOps outfit) it makes sense Tenebra is going to be different in terms of style from everything else. Future missions should be more like act 1 and 2 since laporte is heading back to the front lines.

Take Tenebra for how it stands narratively: a break from the war that laporte had been fighting till now, rather than an indicator for things to come.

(Besides which, it would be exhausting to do another couple of acts of Tenebra's complexity)

 

Offline BritishShivans

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can someone just ****ing lock this thread

it is a mountain of ****

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
No, BritishShivans, it's not.  If you don't like it, I encourage you to stop reading it. 

The notion that bloated "can't shut up about his opinion" would be a lot more valid if he hadn't kept it only to this thread.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 01:00:22 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline Lorric

  • 212
can someone just ****ing lock this thread

it is a mountain of ****

I am absolutely confident this attitude of jumping on anyone who doesn't think BP is fantastic drives people away from playing it. There's no other mod on this board where this happens to people critiquing it.

 

Offline bloated

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Quote from: Aesaar
Act 3 isn't meant to be a standalone game.  Stop thinking of it like one.
I'd always thought this was a conscious decision and tbc I never thought Act 3 was a standalone.  I raised the point that it wasn't & someone debated it, nothing more.
Quote from: Aesaar
Hundreds of missions like that have already been made.  That's not an exaggeration.  I don't play BP to play missions I've already played dozens of times in other campaigns.
Quote from: Aesaar
If it was a full campaign, I might agree with you.  But it's not.  Acts 1 and 2 came before, and acts 4 and 5 will come after.  You have to look at it within that framework.  WiH is the semi-standalone project here.
Quote from: Darius
It looks to me that the worry here is whether tenebra represents the direction which future missions  are going to take gameplay-wise.
1st quote: I've got 2 endings for you to consider.    FreeSpace 1 and FreeSpace 2.

FS1, you have to take out the SD Lucifer by taking out 5 of it's generators that will cause it to overload.  to win you are forced to focus on 5 points on Lucifer and if you fail, you fail.
FS2, you have to survive and if you so choose, save as many evacuating GTVA vessels  as possible, and you can choose to destroy as many Shivan craft as possible.  I've replayed FS2 too many times to count, I played FS1 and finished the ending to see the closing cinematic, once finished I began playing FS2 again to continue the story and because In the immortal words of Harry S. Plinkett, "I love Star Wars (FS2) so much I #### it."

But that's me, which game and ending did you prefer?

quote 2: I respect Act 3  BUT!  I loved that it's so experimental BUT!  A warship we can't really explore because of a time limit, An epic battle scripted to be limited.  An RPG Flight SIM!  That's amazing!  You've created an interactive movie!  That's amazing!  but why the heavy price?  The team did something truly unique with Act 3 and I've little doubt it'll complement acts 1-5 BUT!

quote 3: 100% correct.  Act 3 makes me worry about Acts 4 & 5.

Quote from: Aesaar
Again, it's a mission that takes place in your head.  It's not a mission where you shoot things
In my head would be acceptable.  It's a game that I feel like I'm almost not allowed to play.  I don't understand the resistance.  their were 2 options by design, one continued the story, the other ended it then and there, No act 4 or 5 because I'd chosen to die in my dream.  We all knew it was a dream.  Anyone playing future acts would know they chose option 1.
Quote from: Aesaar
I think this is a fundamental disagreement between you and me.  I don't play BP to play missions I've already played dozens of times in other campaigns, I don't want filler missions,  And I don't want the same jump-in-kill-things missions I've played before.
I'm inclined to agree that it is fundamental.  3 traditional missions would have made act 3 more accessible.
Quote from: Lorric
this attitude of jumping on anyone who doesn't think BP is fantastic drives people away from playing it.
Nothing more toxic than an eagerly offended cult of personality.


« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 05:27:23 pm by bloated »

  

Offline Darius

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Considering that everything here has been said multiple times, I think the point of this thread has been well established.

Bi-lal kaifa so say we all amen.