[headdie]

the difference is that though slow the Lev always had a decent punch for a GTA/GTVA ship, especially in it's FS2 configuration, the Aten was a joke from day 1

It's sad that the most useful action I ever saw an Aten take is when it suicide bombed the Galatea....

stopping that thing was down right infuriating at times

[SaltyWaffles]

Ahem. Given the angle at which it was deployed in Aristeia, if Noémie didn't manage to get through the communication jamming to get reinforcements, the Medea would have reduced TF Wargods into molten metal pieces, on its own. Diomedes are truly scary ships. As for Darkest Hour's Diomedes, well, they were just caught with their pants down and jump drive not recharged. **** happens, this is war.

Eh? I'm not sure how...perhaps I need to look into that mission a bit, but it always seemed to me like the significance of Noemi's trick was that it allowed for the Medea to be dealt with quickly enough to save one or two of the Sanctus cruisers, as well as avoid having the Indus and Yangtze divert to duke it out with the Medea to finish it off.

I mean, the Medea is a threat, sure, but one capable of killing the Indus, Yangtze, two Sanctus cruisers, the Agincourt, and two Oculus ships? Come to think of it, with two Oculus ships and the electronic capability of the other UEF ships present, how long would the GTVA local jamming have held up if it became a priority?

Either way, two TSlashBlue's can't be all that threatening when faced with a dozen gauss cannons that outrange them and can kill them in one or two shots. The Medea would probably get away safely enough, but I have trouble seeing how it would pull an all-kill by itself in that kind of situation.

DH Diomedes caught with its pants down? Was it? I thought it was purposefully sent in to finish off Rheza Station? IIRC, at best, it (usually) just finishes off the Vatican and does some damage to the Indus before being destroyed. For the situation it was in, it was a tad underwhelming (and it seems like Diomedes are the only kind of GTVA ship in WiH that typically gets destroyed before it can jump out, now that I think about it ).

Keep in mind that, post Aristeia, beam jamming is now becoming a pretty common part of UEF EW capabilities. Shock jumping has suddenly become a much less deadly tactic.

Really? How, exactly? Can't the GTVA just use some of their own AWACS ships (and electronics packages, like on the Raynor) to counteract that? Worst case scenario, they just use a few TAG-A's or TAG-B's. And if there isn't an Oculus around (or a very timely EMP missile), would it even need any of that in the first place?

And the UEF can't have a good number of Oculus ships left, at least at the time of Sunglare. After losing two, possibly three of them in the span of a couple weeks, it makes me wonder--especially because the tech database implies that the number of Oculus ships to escape the Fall of Jupiter was in the single-digits to begin with.

[Aesaar]

Ahem. Given the angle at which it was deployed in Aristeia, if Noémie didn't manage to get through the communication jamming to get reinforcements, the Medea would have reduced TF Wargods into molten metal pieces, on its own. Diomedes are truly scary ships. As for Darkest Hour's Diomedes, well, they were just caught with their pants down and jump drive not recharged. **** happens, this is war.

Eh? I'm not sure how...perhaps I need to look into that mission a bit, but it always seemed to me like the significance of Noemi's trick was that it allowed for the Medea to be dealt with quickly enough to save one or two of the Sanctus cruisers, as well as avoid having the Indus and Yangtze divert to duke it out with the Medea to finish it off.

I mean, the Medea is a threat, sure, but one capable of killing the Indus, Yangtze, two Sanctus cruisers, the Agincourt, and two Oculus ships? Come to think of it, with two Oculus ships and the electronic capability of the other UEF ships present, how long would the GTVA local jamming have held up if it became a priority?

Either way, two TSlashBlue's can't be all that threatening when faced with a dozen gauss cannons that outrange them and can kill them in one or two shots. The Medea would probably get away safely enough, but I have trouble seeing how it would pull an all-kill by itself in that kind of situation.

DH Diomedes caught with its pants down? Was it? I thought it was purposefully sent in to finish off Rheza Station? IIRC, at best, it (usually) just finishes off the Vatican and does some damage to the Indus before being destroyed. For the situation it was in, it was a tad underwhelming (and it seems like Diomedes are the only kind of GTVA ship in WiH that typically gets destroyed before it can jump out, now that I think about it ).

Try it.  Play Aristeia on Insane and don't call reinforcements when prompted.  The Medea will almost always kill everything.

The Valerie was caught unawares and was really unlucky.  The Indus jumped in right behind it and got a lucky shot that managed to disable its engines and prevents it from bringing its beams to bear or jumping away.  It is possible for the Indus to jump in the firing arc of the beam cannons, which will usually result in the Indus getting shredded.

Hell, the team had to make sure the Valerie stopped firing when Rheza reached a certain health level, because it would often just kill the station without you being able to do anything about it.

And the UEF can't have a good number of Oculus ships left, at least at the time of Sunglare. After losing two, possibly three of them in the span of a couple weeks, it makes me wonder--especially because the tech database implies that the number of Oculus ships to escape the Fall of Jupiter was in the single-digits to begin with.

This I agree with.  Not to mention the Tevs have their own jamming that can disable UEF torpedo locks, as used by the J. E. Hoover in Aristeia.

[MatthTheGeek]

And the UEF can't have a good number of Oculus ships left, at least at the time of Sunglare. After losing two, possibly three of them in the span of a couple weeks, it makes me wonder--especially because the tech database implies that the number of Oculus ships to escape the Fall of Jupiter was in the single-digits to begin with.

This I agree with.  Not to mention the Tevs have their own jamming that can disable UEF torpedo locks, as used by the J. E. Hoover in Aristeia.

Don't be silly. You don't need an AWACS ship to do EW. Every warship (Tev or UEF) has electronic warfare capabilities, even a lowly Custos, it's just that a dedicated AWACS can do it better.

[-Norbert-]

Try it.  Play Aristeia on Insane and don't call reinforcements when prompted.  The Medea will almost always kill everything.

Ingame doesn't determin backstory.
The Medea was able to wreak such havok, because the Sanctus' and Karunas pretty much ignore it and stayed on course to the Hood.
And that is because the mission was build under the assumption that the player calls in reinforcements to finish the corvette off. If all four ships would have turned all of their weapons on the Medea (especially the forward facting mass drivers and gauss cannons) the fight might have ended up quite different.

You really can't judge the effectiveness of either ship class by that situation.

[Colonol Dekker]

Can I please be permanently assigned to 1st fleets strike flotilla please?

[Aesaar]

Don't be silly. You don't need an AWACS ship to do EW. Every warship (Tev or UEF) has electronic warfare capabilities, even a lowly Custos, it's just that a dedicated AWACS can do it better.

Perhaps, and we've seen small scale EW in TBI, but that was against, at most, 2 ships at a time, and it didn't last long.  I expect that an AWACS was necessary for large-scale beam jamming like what we see in Aristeia and Delenda Est.  I don't think nullifying shock jumps is something anything short of an AWACS or maybe a destroyer can do.

But it's very possible I'm wrong and it happens in R2 and you're just thinking "you'll see" as you read this...

Ingame doesn't determin backstory.
The Medea was able to wreak such havok, because the Sanctus' and Karunas pretty much ignore it and stayed on course to the Hood.
And that is because the mission was build under the assumption that the player calls in reinforcements to finish the corvette off. If all four ships would have turned all of their weapons on the Medea (especially the forward facting mass drivers and gauss cannons) the fight might have ended up quite different.

You really can't judge the effectiveness of either ship class by that situation.

Obviously, we don't know what the team would have done, so it's hard to judge what would have happened.  However, in my experience, a Diomedes doesn't have much difficulty killing two Karunas and two Sanctuses, even when they're focusing on it.  I tested the Diomedes a lot when I was making it.

Tempted to make "Alternate Reality Aristeia" where Laporte doesn't get a GTVA transmitter.  Medea jumps in, shreds torpedo two, Karunas turn to engage, Medea blows up Anjaneya, Hood starts throwing BGreen shots around.

[Ryuseiken]

Would that scenario be really different though? I always make sure to have a Paveway bank in Aristea to knock out the Medea's left beams to help the Sanctus' the second she jumps in, and it's quite easy to take out the Hood's beam early with a dual Paveway from max range. Assuming we didn't get the reinforcements I don't think it would do anything but prolong the battle as long as you still remove the beams before they do much damage.

[Scotty]

In other words: Because I know how the mission is going to happen already, it won't end any differently.

If nobody knew the Medea was going to royally **** up the Wargods' flank, and Laporte didn't have the comm equipment, It probably would have succeeded easily.

[SaltyWaffles]

Try it. Play Aristeia on Insane and don't call reinforcements when prompted. The Medea will almost always kill everything.

Erm...if I'm playing on Insane difficulty and not using a major chunk of assets offered to me (that the mission is balanced for, too), I would EXPECT the Medea to be capable of that. It's Insane difficulty, on a mission that is supposed to be a long shot in-universe to begin with. Canon shouldn't be based on the quirks of Insane Difficulty coupled with the player deliberately handicapping themselves. It's the mark of a player's skill, preparation, patience, and planning that they're able to beat the mission in spite of all that. It reflects nothing about a ship's merits.

The Valerie was caught unawares and was really unlucky.  The Indus jumped in right behind it and got a lucky shot that managed to disable its engines and prevents it from bringing its beams to bear or jumping away.  It is possible for the Indus to jump in the firing arc of the beam cannons, which will usually result in the Indus getting shredded.

Hell, the team had to make sure the Valerie stopped firing when Rheza reached a certain health level, because it would often just kill the station without you being able to do anything about it.

Why? I'm sorry, but huh? Why would one of Steele's prized Diomedes corvettes jump into the equivalent of an enemy capital city without any kind of preperation, good positioning (there were THREE AWACS ships in the area already vectoring in SSM's, not to mention the numerous other GTVA craft and ships in the area), and awareness of the tactical situation? If they were so unprepared, why were they sent at all? This is Steele, here--'unprepared, caught off-guard, hasty, poorly-thought-out, poor positioning and deployment of prized assets' is the last set of words I'd use to describe him.

How did it get shock-jumped by a standard Karuna? Let alone one that had only been called for just beforehand, to a general area (and not a specific vector for shock-jumping)? And it got its engines disabled so quickly by that? I can't recall a single mission playthrough of Darkest Hour in which the Valarie's engines were disabled before it could maneuver. It always died well before its engines did.

And, forgive me if I'm being too forceful here, but isn't that a bad thing from a narrative standpoint--that a given ship/threat is artificially and overtly stopped from doing what it should, would, and could do to accomplish its primary objective (which it was already trying to do)? Doesn't it completely mess with the player's conception of a given ship/class/element--if it should be perfectly able to accomplish X, but magically doesn't, with no in-universe explanation? That's not so much Worf Effect'ing as it is Informed Ability, Badass Decay, and Chew Toy. I think of Diomedes in WiH as "finally, a corvette we actually get to kill" instead of "oh crap, how do we stop this thing from killing us all?". When a Diomedes does more than kill a cruiser or two before being destroyed itself, I will be shocked and confused about the seemingly contradictory performances of its class. That's the issue I'm worried about, though I might be in the minority about that one.

[Scotty]

Try it. Play Aristeia on Insane and don't call reinforcements when prompted. The Medea will almost always kill everything.

Erm...if I'm playing on Insane difficulty and not using a major chunk of assets offered to me (that the mission is balanced for, too), I would EXPECT the Medea to be capable of that. It's Insane difficulty, on a mission that is supposed to be a long shot in-universe to begin with. Canon shouldn't be based on the quirks of Insane Difficulty coupled with the player deliberately handicapping themselves. It's the mark of a player's skill, preparation, patience, and planning that they're able to beat the mission in spite of all that. It reflects nothing about a ship's merits.

This is entirely correct.  Which is what makes the fact that you're ignoring canon and Word of God from the developers themselves all the more baffling.

[-Norbert-]

This is Steele, here--'unprepared, caught off-guard, hasty, poorly-thought-out, poor positioning and deployment of prized assets' is the last set of words I'd use to describe him.

Even with all the stuff Steele was able to pull off, he's still a Human being.
That means even he can't forsee every possibility and he can make mistakes.

Then there is also the possibility that the captain of the Valerie misunderstood his orders and wasn't really supposed to be there in the first place, or that the ship that was supposed to support her was called off to another emergency.

Add to that, that Steeles ship was constantly jumping around all over the place, which surely is detrimental to communications, and it's would practically be a wonder if the Valerie was the only ship that jumped into a situation it couldn't get out of again.

[Aesaar]

Why? I'm sorry, but huh? Why would one of Steele's prized Diomedes corvettes jump into the equivalent of an enemy capital city without any kind of preperation, good positioning (there were THREE AWACS ships in the area already vectoring in SSM's, not to mention the numerous other GTVA craft and ships in the area), and awareness of the tactical situation? If they were so unprepared, why were they sent at all? This is Steele, here--'unprepared, caught off-guard, hasty, poorly-thought-out, poor positioning and deployment of prized assets' is the last set of words I'd use to describe him.

Steele wasn't in command of the Valerie, and it's silly to assume he has absolute control over everything.  It's entirely possible the Valerie was attached to the Imperieuse rather than the Atreus, so Steele wasn't directly giving the orders there.  The mistake is not necessarily his.

How did it get shock-jumped by a standard Karuna? Let alone one that had only been called for just beforehand, to a general area (and not a specific vector for shock-jumping)? And it got its engines disabled so quickly by that? I can't recall a single mission playthrough of Darkest Hour in which the Valarie's engines were disabled before it could maneuver. It always died well before its engines did.

  For some reason, I thought the Valerie's engines were destroyed by a SEXP when the Indus jumps in.  I checked, and for some reason it does the opposite, and gives them heavy armor 20.  Disregard.  It can't jump out because it doesn't have a sprint drive, but I don't know why it doesn't turn.

Erm...if I'm playing on Insane difficulty and not using a major chunk of assets offered to me (that the mission is balanced for, too), I would EXPECT the Medea to be capable of that. It's Insane difficulty, on a mission that is supposed to be a long shot in-universe to begin with. Canon shouldn't be based on the quirks of Insane Difficulty coupled with the player deliberately handicapping themselves. It's the mark of a player's skill, preparation, patience, and planning that they're able to beat the mission in spite of all that. It reflects nothing about a ship's merits.

Insane is the only difficulty where the player doesn't get any sort of advantage over the AI (amount of turrets allowed to target you, for instance).  It doesn't handicap the player, it just stops handicapping the AI.  It's the best difficulty for tests like this.

[SaltyWaffles]

Insane is the only difficulty where the player doesn't get any sort of advantage over the AI (amount of turrets allowed to target you, for instance).  It doesn't handicap the player, it just stops handicapping the AI.  It's the best difficulty for tests like this.

...except that the AI functions fundamentally differently from human players, so "stops handicapping the AI" kind of just equates to "now has statistically perfect aim, reaction time, energy management, etc."--this makes AI opponents and allies more of a match against skilled players, but it doesn't make them equal in the story-sense. Human beings have handicaps all the time, as a side effect of not being a highly specialized program/instance that has complete awareness of the entire battlespace, perfect control over its craft and weapons, potentially perfect reaction times, and a computer calculating the precise targeting solution/maneuver whenever you do anything.

In terms of the clear-cut 'skills', an AI starts at perfect and works its way down towards "human-like". The difficulty is making them better at the more abstract, difficult-to-define skills, where they work their way up from "none". Insane difficulty doesn't really humanize the latter portion to a fantastic degree, it just (IIRC) makes the 'clear-cut skills' go further back to its natural state (perfect). An overgeneralized example, and probably stupidly mistaken on the more technical details, but the gist I'm trying to convey here is that removing all restrictions on an AI that's formidable largely because of its inhumanly perfect aim/maneuvering/energy management is not making it more realistic or consistent in-story, it's overcompensating on one end to make a greater-than-normal challenge for a player that often needs/has foreknowledge on everything in the mission, and time to plan it all out.

[Aesaar]

Accuracy is determined by AI class far more than it is by difficulty.  A ship running BP2-Colonel on very easy is more accurate than a ship running BP2-Lieutenant on Insane.  Each difficulty level raises the accuracy stat by 5%, whereas an increase of one class (say BP2-Lieutenant to BP2-Captain) raises it by 10%.  Have a look at the AI tables. 

In any case, if you take evasive maneuvers, the AI could be 100% accurate and it would still miss a decent amount.  Insane definitely does not make the AI behave instantly or perfectly on any level.  The loss of the player bonuses is much, much more noticeable.  You don't die more easily because the enemy is more accurate, you die more easily because you can be targeted by more than 5 or 6 enemies or turrets at a time and their weapons do their actual amount of damage.

We've drifted away from the argument anyway.  The original point was that without the GTVA comms unit loaded on Laporte's fighter, the Agincourt extraction would have most likely ended in the destruction of one or both frigates by the Medea and Hood.

[An4ximandros]

Thing is, the whole group could have beaten the dio and stay on course to the Hood if they had just drifted and turned to bombard the corvette while staying on the move... but that would mean the GTVA also could, which means the Medea could use drifting to aim her four beams and... couldn't the UEF ships just throw a missile spam at the Diomedes?

It saddens me that for the much progress BP or Inferno or whatever other mod/campaign makes, no one tries to add more space mechanics to Freespace, so many possibilities.

But I digress, why are we discussing game mechanics and AI on a thread about a Ship list?

[MatthTheGeek]

Accuracy is determined by AI class far more than it is by difficulty.  A ship running BP2-Colonel on very easy is more accurate than a ship running BP2-Lieutenant on Insane.  Each difficulty level raises the accuracy stat by 5%, whereas an increase of one class (say BP2-Lieutenant to BP2-Captain) raises it by 10%.  Have a look at the AI tables. 

Not if you put $fix AI class bug in Profiles.

It saddens me that for the much progress BP or Inferno or whatever other mod/campaign makes, no one tries to add more space mechanics to Freespace, so many possibilities.

**** realism man. **** it with barbed wire.

[Ryuseiken]

It saddens me that for the much progress BP or Inferno or whatever other mod/campaign makes, no one tries to add more space mechanics to Freespace, so many possibilities.

**** realism man. **** it with barbed wire.

I have to agree with that, Newtonian physics may be more realistic, but Freespace controls are way more fun to fly with. Though I did enjoy a toggle glide for getting to point A to point B faster.

[MatthTheGeek]

If you want glide, go Diaspora. It adds a lot to their atmosphere. Or go Ashen Wings. Or The Antagonist. Or WoD, even. See, there's a lot of them just from the top of my head. We don't need to put glide in all the mods.

[The E]

In an FS2-based mod, glide should be a spice, not a main course.