Author Topic: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater  (Read 53178 times)

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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
In an FS2-based mod, glide should be a spice, not a main course.
Exactly. I don't mind that glide isn't in BP, as I have a hard enough time hitting with primaries when I'm not drifting to the side while trying to aim. Plus, I have a feeling I'd accidentally glide into flak and beam fire more often than I'd like.

It's only specific instances where I'm flying a ship with low afterburner reserves (looking at you boanerges) towards a far off enemy where I think, "Man I wish I didn't need to tap my afterburner button every 6 seconds".
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 01:14:14 pm by Ryuseiken »

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
That kind of gliding (beyond "normal" speed) isn't implemented in most FS2 mods. Once the afterburner runs out you'll just go back to non-burner top speed, even while gliding.
The only mods I know/remember which keep the speed no matter what while gliding are Diaspora and very old versions of TBP (and most likely Fringe Space, since Tachyon itself worked that way, but they havn't made a release yet).

 

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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
That kind of gliding (beyond "normal" speed) isn't implemented in most FS2 mods. Once the afterburner runs out you'll just go back to non-burner top speed, even while gliding.
The only mods I know/remember which keep the speed no matter what while gliding are Diaspora and very old versions of TBP (and most likely Fringe Space, since Tachyon itself worked that way, but they havn't made a release yet).
Wingcommander Saga also uses it, one mission relies on it even
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Offline Light

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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
Keep in mind that, post Aristeia, beam jamming is now becoming a pretty common part of UEF EW capabilities. Shock jumping has suddenly become a much less deadly tactic.

I was just reading this thread and the above line caught my attention. Now I know from playing BP2:WIH how beam jamming was developed as a counter to GTVA beam weapons. The endless measure - countermeasure cycle of warfare. However have you considered what seems to me to be the most obvious counter the GTVA could use? Give their ships' fire control systems HOJ (Home On Jam) capability, just like modern radar guided missiles have. The UEF EW ships would by jamming make themselves into the biggest TAG transmitters ever created.

Now I can already think of some tactics to try and counter what I said above but I will leave that for another thread if anyone would like to discuss it, I just thought I would bring the above idea to your attention in case the thought had not already been considered.

 

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
I've had a fair bit of experience with HOJ through flight sims. It's certainly an avenue the GTVA has doubtless explored, but bear in mind that some component of beam jamming is not merely targeting and tracking interference but actual disruption of the beam's magnetic bottle.

 

Offline Axem

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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
Actually the UEF AWACS ships don't jam the targetting sensors, they jam the very beams themselves by disrupting their magnetic containment. Can't have a beam without all that plasma being concentrated!

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
Yees, I brought HOJ up in testing a while back until this facet of jamming was explained to me.

 

Offline Light

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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
Everyone, thank you for you quick replies and for clarifying the situation with beam jamming issue. The situations is obviously more complexed than it seemed at first glance. I had not seen HOJ mentioned in the thread and thought I would toss the idea out there just in case.

  

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
Actually the UEF AWACS ships don't jam the targetting sensors, they jam the very beams themselves by disrupting their magnetic containment. Can't have a beam without all that plasma being concentrated!
  I don't mean to doubt your word or anything since you probably know more about this than I do, but the Carthage fires its BGreen through jamming perfectly well once the Hanuman gets TAGged.  And the Serkr corvettes fire just fine in Aristeia, they just miss.  I don't think its as simple as just a targeting jam, but jamming doesn't actually prevent the beams from firing.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
Actually the UEF AWACS ships don't jam the targetting sensors, they jam the very beams themselves by disrupting their magnetic containment. Can't have a beam without all that plasma being concentrated!
  I don't mean to doubt your word or anything since you probably know more about this than I do, but the Carthage fires its BGreen through jamming perfectly well once the Hanuman gets TAGged.  And the Serkr corvettes fire just fine in Aristeia, they just miss.  I don't think its as simple as just a targeting jam, but jamming doesn't actually prevent the beams from firing.

It's a tiered system. First up, countermeasures begin by degrading enemy active targeting sensors and attempting to spoof passive systems. Then the system attempts to degrade the collection of a good firing solution by obscuring access to information on the target (the kind of data used to find weaknesses in armor, defeat ablatives, and the like). The last layer of defense attacks the beam itself as it's forming and then firing, attempting to fray the magnetic bottle, deflect it, or otherwise hamper the firing of the beam itself. This step of the countermeasure involves a lot of electromagnetic wizardry and perhaps even some subspace geodesic ****ery.

The takeaway here is that beam attacks will fail (or fail to fail) in many different ways, from a failure to fire to a failure to connect to the target to degraded damage output. Slash beams and direct fire beams are also handled differently; while slashers are on average less vulnerable to jamming, they have been jammed successfully in the past.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
Ah, thanks, that clears it up quite nicely. 

It would be nice to have a techroom entry on jamming in R2, if you have the time and feel like adding to it. :)

 
Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
It would be nice to have a techroom entry on jamming in R2, if you have the time and feel like adding to it. :)

Agreed, there have been lots of question regarding beam jamming, so it could be a good idea to have an entry to recap everything.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
If we could have beams curving away from a target, or decohering near one, we would have done that. Unfortunately, the engine doesn't know how to do that.
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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
If we could have beams curving away from a target, or decohering near one, we would have done that. Unfortunately, the engine doesn't know how to do that.

Well...you might be able to achieve an effect that's similar enough but still possible with the FSO engine. I'm just taking a stab in the dark here, but something along the lines of a beam, primary cannon shot, or even secondary weapon that's modified/designed to look something like an incoherent stream of plasma might do the trick. Create the beam/shot/projectile, then FRED the turret(s) in question to manually fire it at the right time and place.

I've actually made something (very) vaguely similar in concept as a weapon I've been trying to flesh out. Though the specifics would need some major changes, the basic concepts involved might be enough to create a makeshift solution.

I'm thinking...if going with the primary cannon shot route...a laser shot with a crazy rate of fire (looks like a stream, or close to it if you'd like that), very different head and tail widths, long laser length, unstable-looking color patterns in the start and end colors, changes in the alpha levels as necessary, and huge width in general (to look like a beam cannon that is incoherent, with a loose and warped magnetic bottle). If there's a way to randomize those exact numbers as the beam/shot fires continually, it might get the kind of effect that you're looking for (even if an Aristeia-like shot misses its target completely, it would still have the effect of an incoherent, disrupted beam).

Or, maybe, a missile route--the missile looks like a beam (like the Shivan Super Laser), the trail is super-long, and the missile's tabled trajectory/flight pattern is curved in a designated way (corkscrew, extremely poor tracking combined with an invisible countermeasure via FRED slight-of-hand, maybe?) for the desired effect?
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Offline Droid803

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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
If we could have beams curving away from a target, or decohering near one, we would have done that. Unfortunately, the engine doesn't know how to do that.

Well...you might be able to achieve an effect that's similar enough but still possible with the FSO engine. I'm just taking a stab in the dark here, but something along the lines of a beam, primary cannon shot, or even secondary weapon that's modified/designed to look something like an incoherent stream of plasma might do the trick. Create the beam/shot/projectile, then FRED the turret(s) in question to manually fire it at the right time and place.

I've actually made something (very) vaguely similar in concept as a weapon I've been trying to flesh out. Though the specifics would need some major changes, the basic concepts involved might be enough to create a makeshift solution.

I'm thinking...if going with the primary cannon shot route...a laser shot with a crazy rate of fire (looks like a stream, or close to it if you'd like that), very different head and tail widths, long laser length, unstable-looking color patterns in the start and end colors, changes in the alpha levels as necessary, and huge width in general (to look like a beam cannon that is incoherent, with a loose and warped magnetic bottle). If there's a way to randomize those exact numbers as the beam/shot fires continually, it might get the kind of effect that you're looking for (even if an Aristeia-like shot misses its target completely, it would still have the effect of an incoherent, disrupted beam).

Or, maybe, a missile route--the missile looks like a beam (like the Shivan Super Laser), the trail is super-long, and the missile's tabled trajectory/flight pattern is curved in a designated way (corkscrew, extremely poor tracking combined with an invisible countermeasure via FRED slight-of-hand, maybe?) for the desired effect?

Rapid fire primary -> you hit the projectile limit, which is bad (you have to remember there's going to be a bunch of PD guns, flak guns, fighters etc shooting too)
Missile -> Not convincing really, because it'd look way too different from a regular beam. Also, it means you'd have to manually FRED out every single beam shot, each with the possibility of going horribly wrong.
These makeshift solutions also would look absolutely nothing like the beam's normal firing sequence even at the emitter.
Overall, it would be pretty easy to visually identify the hacks which were done, at least with the current beams - perhaps if the weapons were designed with these hacks in mind, then it'd be more possible to pull off a convincing approximation. I just don't see it happening at all with the current beams.

IMO a better bet would be to get some sort of distortion shader that changes how the beam is rendered and use a lower-damage beam (or a zero damage beam for complete misses) rendered around target ships, which seems more plausible (given the cloaking/impact heat distortion/thruster distortion shaders).
Or just fricken code in curvy beams because it'd be a cool feature to have anyway.
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
How about a new beam weapon with an longer muzzle effect, an invisible beam texture, and no damage, to simulate the beam losing coherency pretty much immediately?

 
Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
How about a new beam weapon with an longer muzzle effect, an invisible beam texture, and no damage, to simulate the beam losing coherency pretty much immediately?

Sounds interesting. Beyond my ability to tinker with, but it sounds like it might work :P

Also, Droid: Given how beam jamming works, I think we have a lot of room for the effect; if a beam is strongly distorted or compromised in several different ways at once, it may very well feel convincing despite looking very different from a normal beam. After all, that's the point of such beam jamming, so the goal is to make it look like there's still the plasma and some attempt at a magnetic bottle involved, but other than that we have some flexibility.
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Offline Droid803

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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
Yeah but if it's coming out like a single projectile with a trail instead of a beam it's not going to convince anyone (and it WILL look like a projectile with a trail if it is a projectile with a trail)
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Offline An4ximandros

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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
Wouldn't it be possible to have a sort of "scattered" beam animation that is aimed around the target ships by a SEXP? Just throwing Ideas here, not sure about the SEXPital limits. ;)

I'll make a crappy drawing to show what I mean later, if you guys want.

 

Offline -Norbert-

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Re: Forces deployed in the Sol Theater
Maybe it would be enough to give the outer part of the beam a "fuzzy" look, maybe with a few black dots within and make the current beam sound stutter.
That way you could at least tell that the beam isn't working as intended.

Could an asymetrical warmup be done?