[bloated]

I wound up skipping a lot of the text because it wasn't what I was looking for from  a video game.  I think it's fantastic that they are going to the trouble of doing the voice over work but I suspect even with proper voice acting some like me would just skip past it once they realized how much they were going to have to listen to.

the voice work will add to the missions themselves to be sure and make them more immersive, the current setup was distracting as you struggled to do whatever it was while trying to figure out what was being said.

If I ever return the BP2 I might read through the text but I'm not sure, after a while it gets in the way.  I don't remember the sheer volume of it in the previous 2 installments.

[Alzurana]

When I first started playing BP2 and even when I was playing BP I was thinking I'd get ahold of him and we could do the voice work for the game.  But then as I realized how much their was and how much would be involved

Hehe, I had the same feeling about BP2. Thankfully, the devs are working on it, already. ^^

I think the VA might help clarify potentially confusing situations in-mission, but I don't think their goal is to make playing the game less of an ordeal.
[...]
VA definitely won't help with wall-of-textness since everybody just reads ahead of the voice anyway. It adds flavor though!

I don't think so. A lot of people skip walls-of-text to get to the action. Not so if someone reads it to them. Lots of my friends do that, at least...

Besides: Spoken text usually runs a lot faster than grey on black text with low contrast. Which is one thing that bugged me, btw. ^^ Could've been through it a lot faster but the low contrast text was a challenge. Especially the debriefing is hard on your eyes.

[bloated]

I don't think so. A lot of people skip walls-of-text to get to the action. Not so if someone reads it to them. Lots of my friends do that, at least.

I'm inclined to agree with that, when I wasn't skipping the wall of text the "dot dot dot, blah blah blah, dot dot dot" was more distracting then enhancing.

this isn't a complaint btw it's just the reality of the situation.

I think it was during BP that something was said about one character loving another one that made me suspect one of characters was a female...... lol.  Even now because of the massive amount of dialogue I'm reluctant to go back to look for evidence in regards to gender and instead just assume some of the characters are female.

At least when the audio is done characters will be more distinguishable.

[Cyborg17]

I can't imagine playing BP without knowing the basic relationships of the characters.  It makes missions like Delenda Est much less emotional.  Act 3 without the real story would be kind of emotionless.

[emkay]

A very interesting and fair conversation is going on here, I really like that.

All that has been said so far, has its points.
For me, I also think that it is the complex and "realistic" story that makes BP so interesting. The complex and well-designed missions are "just bonus".
But I also agree that there are many people which rather prefer plain action. That is not what BP was made for, at least not from my point of view.

To add a different point of view, I'd however like to make a decent annotation (which is hopefully not offending to anyone here):
BP is highly immersive because of its story and mission design. Wing Commander Saga, on the other hand, creates immersion through a different approach: Apart from having cutscenes (and a rather simple story), it foremost does two things:
1. It places the player in the midst of a team, consisting of various likable and dislikable characters. BP also has some very deep character settings, but in my opinion it doesn't create that much of an identifying and compelling character set. But I assume the general storyline is more important to BP than single characters.
2. WCS has just so many (mostly similar, simple and partially boring) missions that their sheer amount creates immersion from the simple duration of the storyline. You really feel being part of a crew that needs to achieve (admittedly rather simple) tasks day by day, over and over. That is something BP does not want to have, does not achieve to have, does not need to have.

This is no assessment or comparison. I like both games, BP even a bit more, and as both try to address different people and achieve different things, they both have its assets and flaws.


This being said just as a sidenote to the previous discussion on what other (or the majority) of people might wanna see and expect...

[bloated]

I can't imagine playing BP without knowing the basic relationships of the characters.  It makes missions like Delenda Est much less emotional.  Act 3 without the real story would be kind of emotionless.

different approaches to achieve the same goals.

Delenda Est for you carried weight because of it's characters, for me it was about fighting for the survival of the UED in what looked like it was going to be the last great battle.  Their may be an Arcturus Mengsk, a Sarah Kerrigan or a Jim Raynor in the BP franchise somewhere but I suspect the MS audio is drowning them out.

That said Delende Est was BP and BP had a balance between gameplay and dialogue that BP2 lacks.

p.s. understand I'm not attacking BP2, I've mentioned it previously that I enjoyed it after I got past the story centric focus.

BP is highly immersive because of its story and mission design. Wing Commander Saga, on the other hand, creates immersion through a different approach

I played a beta of WCS and never got around to the final.  I found it dated in a lot of ways and couldn't get excited about it.  I should probably revisit it now that it's long since been finished and polished.

BP was so amazing I just wish BP2 had more fun to offset the dialogue.

TBC!!! I love what the BP team is doing and hope they finish it, these criticisms aren't condemnations and are not meant to offend.

[Mars]

I think you've successfully voiced your primary criticism.

[bloated]

  few times in a few different ways I believe.

balance baby, it's all about balance.

[Gee1337]

Ultimately, I believe that War in Heaven has been once massive experiment which has taken the FS engine to new levels and succeeded. As I said earlier, it has shown what the engine is capable of and it could present new ideas of gameplay for other modders to focus on to expand some ideas even further. This has already been proven by "Battle Captains", which I have not played but from my understanding, it is not my kind of thing as you are flying capital ships instead of fighters, which I had have enough of thanks to BSG online which began to intensely annoy me.

However, flying a light medium ship was interesting and good fun... I think the mission was in Act 2 where you go and destroy a pirate base and the ship you fly feels a bit like flying the Millenium Falcon (although it might have been Act 3 actually). What BP has also done for me is to introduce new concepts of warfare to fs2 such as ECM, expanding AWACs capabilities, different kinds of weaponary etc...

Where Blue Planet excels for me is graphically. Personally, I think the new TEV ships are beautiful and I love the texturing and colouring used. In fact, it gave me a negative feeling going into War In Heaven just thinking that I would be going up against such ships. Even though the UEF frigates were modified versions of Babylon 5's Omega destroyers, they were modified in such a way that they had their own unique identification and separated them from the original model used. In comparison to Shadow Genesis which had used a slightly modified version of a battlecrab, Blue Planet pulled the technique off much more effectively (sorry Betrayal... I enjoyed Shadow Genesis and I hope your "Mystery Project" is a continuation of it, but BP has you well beat on this). I'm hoping to see some beam weapons used in the UEF fleet in the next installments and eventually I would like to know how both fleets are going to compete with the super entities that are the Vishnans and the Shivans.

And that brings me to my final point, about the introduction of two new super races... the Vishnans and the Brahmans. The Blue Planet canon itself extended beautifully on from the original Freespace story line. Again, there is a whiff of ol' B5 with the Vorlon philosphy of "Understanding is a three edged sword", as an overall plot. But it introduced many other questions about which super entity was right (obviously not the Brahmans because they aint around)... we all warmed to Vishnans as an ally to fighting our natural enemy, the Shivans, but the some of the concepts used in the Ubuntu religion and the antics of some of the other characters reminded me that "good and evil are just a matter of perspective". But also... what the hell with Bosch... what has he become? What happened to him? Is he some sort of third age profit? Was he right about the Shivans? What exactly does he know?

Well... I suppose no Blue Planet post would be complete without it being a wall of text, so I will close here!

[AdmiralRalwood]

That said Delende Est was BP and BP had a balance between gameplay and dialogue that BP2 lacks.

...Er? Delenda Est is BP2. Are you confusing "BP/BP2" with "War in Heaven 1" and "War in Heaven 2"?

[bloated]

.Er? Delenda Est is BP2. Are you confusing "BP/BP2" with "War in Heaven 1" and "War in Heaven 2"?

meh, maybe, probably, love the mission but it's location amongst the rest is a blur.

Ultimately, I believe that War in Heaven has been once massive experiment which has taken the FS engine to new levels and succeeded.

I agree, it's grown experimental. 

I'm not sure anyone here is familiar with an old comedy show called the Kids in the Hall but what began as a conventional skit comedy born from the minds of a few guys who'd spitball ideas each week eventually became notably fringe to the point that it catered almost exclusively to long term viewers at the expense of new.

To be clear this is not a condemnation, this is not a criticism, It's what I hope is an objective view of the games direction nothing more.

If I was new to BP the 3rd installment would be a failure, not because it's bad but because too much is expected up front for a new player to consider.  As a longtime player it was ok but I really want to play 4 & 5.  In this way fair or unfair 3 seemed less standalone and more a stepping stone.

as a long time player the number of time limited mission, sheer volume of text and number of missions that were dedicated just to discussion was a little problematic.  (with a thank you for the option to skip some of the pure discussion missions)

I don't know why the BP team hasn't been hired by someone to make something because the talent is as obvious as it is diverse.

[AdmiralRalwood]

If I was new to BP the 3rd installment would be a failure, not because it's bad but because too much is expected up front for a new player to consider.  As a longtime player it was ok but I really want to play 4 & 5.  In this way fair or unfair 3 seemed less standalone and more a stepping stone.

I highly doubt anybody is expected to enter a series with the third act of the second game.

[mosshadow]

I really liked BP but there is way too much text, and its an unforgiving game. So you die  a lot and read the text dozens of times and it loses its charm. Plus in the later game you end going through the dream sequence with spiders and creepy screen effects a few times before getting it right.

[BritishShivans]

wow gee there is sure is a lot of whining and not much actual criticism here

"waah beepee will fail because it is too big" - BP team is addressing this with tutorials and new **** and ????

the bp team even says that bp was made for players who had already played freespace 2 not new people

ugh

[bloated]

wow gee there is sure is a lot of whining and not much actual criticism here.

the bp team even says that bp was made for players who had already played freespace 2 not new people.

ugh.

If you are unhappy with the discussion, don't follow it.   A limited disclaimer isn't a blanket excuse & No one else entered the searches that got you here.  If bothered then don't repeat the actions.

I really liked BP but there is way too much text, and its an unforgiving game. So you die  a lot and read the text dozens of times and it loses its charm. Plus in the later game you end going through the dream sequence with spiders and creepy screen effects a few times before getting it right.

That's the heavy scripting & their were 2 endings to the final mission.

I did both out of curiosity & was disappointed because the fatalistic choice limited me to flying a preconfigured ship with crappy weapons that could do little more than watch.  I consider it a wasted opportunity that took any hope of fun out of the final mission for a few reasons.  All of them involving the amount of text and the lack of gameplay..... while I never failed the mission the 2nd time through just dragged.  Had I been allowed to extract every ounce of vengeance on the TEV's  in the final mission after choosing the alternative option.  Allowed to face wave after wave after wave of incoming bomber and fighters while flying a craft I configured until I was killed.... I think that would have been quite awesome actually.  It would have really gotten stoked for the next installment.

Instead it was a cinematic.

I highly doubt anybody is expected to enter a series with the third act of the second game.

true, but then anyone can play Half Life 2 Episode 2 and enjoy it without the others, I played FS2 before I played FS1, Mech 3 before 2 or 1, WarCraft 3 before 2 or 1, all of these games have epic storylines yet are standalones.  It's not about what's expected, it's about what can happen.  FS2 was what got me to play FS1, Mech 3 was what got me to play Mech 2.

BP2 is discouraging in that way.

P.S. again, I enjoyed BP2 and am not attacking it, just talking honestly about it, given the deliberate choices embraced by the team what I'm saying was likely considered well ahead of time.  If not I hope their is some value in it but I assume nothing being said is surprising.

[Mars]

Its been two three pages now, so I'll say it. Despite your limited disclaimers, it sounds like you don't like at least some chunk of BP. There's a lot of confusion over which parts but it doesn't seem to particulaly matter to you. There's too much text. You didn't care about the story at all. This mission is boring. This other mission is boring. Fine, BP isn't for everyone. We humored you for a while, and then you said this.

If you are unhappy with the discussion, don't follow it.

If you're unhappy with the game no one is forcing you to "put up" with these missions, a lot of us enjoy them. You have long since stopped giving novel feedback and you're now whining.  Its like going on to the Half Life forums and posting dozens of messsages about how the story is nothing but a five hour player ego stroke.

[mosshadow]

Im not sure if you are talking about me but Im sorry if I was focusing too much on the negative aspects. I really liked Aquarius all the way through especially with the new fighters.

For War in Heaven I loved the Kentauroi with the insane agility and reverse thrusters. Parts 1-2 were solid and part 3 was the part I was more complaining about. Its like Tenebra was very experimental so the devs were able to do plenty of cool new things but they couldnt polish it as much as the earlier parts which were just upgrades to regular freespace.

[BritishShivans]

Bloated, have you simply considered that BP is simply *not* for you instead of constantly whining about how hard it is? This entire thread all you have really done is complain about how you dislike BP and some of it's features, instead of actually *providing* anything helpful.

Instead of complaining about how you disliked the ending, why not try explaining *why*? Find what reasons you didn't like the ending/gameplay for and make suggestions as to how it could be improved? It's not like it's particularly a difficult thing to do. 

[bloated]

We humored you for a while

a lot of us enjoy them.

Its like going on to the Half Life forums and posting dozens of messsages about how the story is nothing but a five hour player ego stroke.

Your "humor" isn't a requisite and while  I'm glad you liked them, my voicing concerns isn't an excuse.  You don't get to dictate how ppl support your opinion on anything let alone for how long.

Half Life is an example, also mentioned MechWarrior, WarCraft, Doom and others.

P.S. I finished the game (mentioned a few times), I liked the story (mentioned a few times),  voicing criticism isn't whining.  That's why some responses are on track despite your and Brit's demands that they stop.

Im not sure if you are talking about me but Im sorry if I was focusing too much on the negative aspects. I really liked Aquarius all the way through especially with the new fighters.

For War in Heaven I loved the Kentauroi with the insane agility and reverse thrusters. Parts 1-2 were solid and part 3 was the part I was more complaining about. Its like Tenebra was very experimental so the devs were able to do plenty of cool new things but they couldnt polish it as much as the earlier parts which were just upgrades to regular freespace.

part of my post was in response to you & yes and I agree completely.

Bloated, have you simply considered that BP is simply *not* for you instead of constantly whining about how hard it is? This entire thread all you have really done is complain about how you dislike BP and some of it's features, instead of actually *providing* anything helpful.

Instead of complaining about how you disliked the ending, why not try explaining *why*? Find what reasons you didn't like the ending/gameplay for and make suggestions as to how it could be improved? It's not like it's particularly a difficult thing to do.

sigh, I'll repeat, I finished BP2, I finished all of it, it's amazing to me that after saying I liked & finished it several times that ppl still recommend I not finish or bother with the game I bothered with and finished.

BritishShivan most of the solutions are implied by their nature.  That said you may have a point.  In my desire to keep the criticisms in context and balanced some may be getting confused.   I'm not alone in this position so don't bother with that but regardless  (I may be the lightning rod) What's happened is that others have come in and debated, acknowledged or added.

What was it I disliked about BP2.

1 The Walls of Text: This post you are reading has been condensed a few times, BP2 doesn't feel like it was.  Video Games are a visual medium, that's an asset that can be explored.
2 Time limits:  I'm not sure every mission doesn't have them outside of the discussion missions.  look at a list of the top 5 complaints in regards to any video game and Time limits is right there alongside escorting NPC's because they limit player options.
3 The heavy scripting: while all missions are scripted to a point BP2's involved dictating how players do the mission, what objectives and in what order, it goes well beyond limiting weapon and fighter choices, how many missions dictated stealth only?  I think all of them limited weapon & ship choices but one, and it was short and to the point.  I'm not saying get rid of the scripted missions but throw in some fun missions as well to break the monotony/restore the balance.
4 The story centric focus at the expense of actual gameplay:  BP2 was more story than game, some missions managed integrating story into the mission.  The battle against Zinny & Zero was great at showing discord between TEV elements but most of the missions didn't bother with this. 
5 no missions that allowed the player to indulge.
6 missions that weren't missions, just more text.
7 The ending was a missed opportunity.  2 options, one goes to the cinematic, the other could have been an epic blood bath, instead it was also a cinematic.

No one is saying throw the baby out with the bathwater, No one is saying BP2 was a bad game,  as a modern day text adventure or interactive movie it was interesting and experimental but some elements could have been better.  This game is a mod, it's free & the ppl doing it are awesome for doing it.  I hope they finish it but constructive criticism shouldn't be a problem for anyone to handle, thin skin or otherwise.

[Mars]

Its not thin skin when you've repeated yourself nearly a dozen times. I have no objection to you having an opinion nor do I want to dictate your opinion. I am fine with that. My "humor" wasn't humor, you are literally demonstrating the equivalent of "going on to the Half Life forums and posting dozens of messages about how the story is nothing but a five hour player ego stroke."

You've made your objections to Blue Planet clear.