[Janos]

Dawn War? Plans that are billions of years old? Preservation and destruction as a deal?

I wonder what kind of revelations will wait for us in the deepest, coldest space

I really struggled with that ****ing name so people wouldn't be like 'oh it's Revelation Space' so I swapped to 'Morning War' and then that was in Mass Effect and I think I tried something else but the Xeelee books had used it so I said '**** it' and now it's a TRIBUTE

The overall direction of things isn't super Revelation Space, though, and everything went ****ty after Redemption Ark anyway. You do point out some interesting similarities but I think they're more cases of convergence or consonance.

Feel no shame! It's fictional sci-fi opera with ships flying in nonrelativistic speeds and distances and blasting each other with magical photon beam cannons. A little namedrop here or there is only honest.

But hey! Finally I can pour some bad metacritique into a long and incoherent post which makes no sense whatsoever, thank you!

The overall hyperplot of Revelation Space series isn't really that interesting or good. The books excel in depicting interstellar travel and political plotting in transhuman socities, but when it comes to the bigger plot it all fells apart, because Reynolds really can't limit himself. But that's irrelevant. What's more interesting, though, is that several themes of Revelation Space are quite commonly encountered throughout sci-fi media. And many of those themes are encountered in Blue Planet as well. Actually those themes are encountered in almost every FS installation due to the nature of the original game. No, wait, those themes are encountered in most sci-fi that goes into the universum-wide scale. Aagh. That's not an accusation, they are generally standard pieces of storytelling in sci-fi opera toolbox. They form the greatest scifi cliche of all time - the monomyth of apocalypse. Our universal nightmare - we run to the stars and are swatted like flies for an unknown purpose. "Oh no", we scream, "our wonderful identities! Our ability to make moral choices! Please, Mister or Miss Author of Intergalactic Survival Tale that spans billions of years, give us an impression that our plucky individualism really matters!" And the author relents, and our human nature leads us to conquer the Shivans Reapers Wolves Tyranids Zerg Elders Cthulhu Slavers Liir Sith Old Gods Angels WHATEVER and maybe someone makes a heroic sacrifice.

Look at this:
- "The timescales in conflicts are so huge as to be inperceivable to humans"
- "The destroyers from beyond the stars interested in preserving life in the long run which means sacrifices in the short run"
- "The deals are ancient and arcane and your monkey brains wouldn't understand, except when they would, because here it is, OK well honestly it's just near-religious explanation of thing A or B or a word salad, but really SUPER IMPORTANT that's why you must die"

Spoiler:

you conquer this with power of love, harmony or disco music

- "Despite the age the technological development of the [insert ancient power here] has been surprisingly stagnant compared to humans"
- "Things are not the way you think they are"
- TRANSCEND TO THE ASTRAL PLANE *vangelis*
- The Ascendance of the Prophet
- "There is always a choice" seems to be a natural part of our literary psyche; the ability to make a choice - good or bad - is imperative to most scifi narratives. In nearly every apocalyptic scenario the humanity is offered some kind of choice, which generally has unpleasant short-tems effects and unknown long-term effects.
- The everpresent series of conspiracies: there is a motivator beyond whatever we discover. Pure chaos or existence without any kind of deeper meaning would be severely limitating to apocalyptic sci-fi. Some day we will encounter the prime mover of apocalyptic scifi, and then the world will end.

Spoiler:

it's love, it will conquer

I could throw that pack into most of current sci-fi and a large amount of it would stick. And I like it, it's dramatic and gives a great backdrop for shooting people with plasma beams. But it's also easy to make fun of and in larger works it becomes highly predictable, putting the author's skills to a test.

e: haha exactly

it was a bad book.

really bad.

[General Battuta]

This is all correct analysis. I think with BP we are trying to walk a very narrow tightrope between our cake and eating it (you can tell I'm a Good Writer), in particular with the layers of conspiracy and the role of the human agent.

I think it's satisfying to find intentionality and design behind everything. Chance and chaos are huge players in the Lacanian Real Hangout Zone and it's sometimes interesting to find ways to incorporate them into fiction, but with BP we very intentionally set out to make a big chess game full of ominously titled secret orders and hidden cabals that live in wild moral territory. It's something I have a weakness for as a writer but I also think it's something readers can grab onto and engage with: it's fun to say 'ah, now I understand why X did Y, so I can predict that George RR Martin will never finish the next book' or whatever

The question of the human agent and choice is a big one in the narrative. That one I think we're much more interested in subverting and exploring. Games are fun when your decisions matter and stories are fun when the characters seem to have meaningful choices, but at the same time, BP's characters (in act 3 in particular) have started to tug at the threads of the space opera archetype.

Bei gets to sacrifice his humanity to save the people he loves in a very archetypical story. Then a crazy lady shows up to yell at him about how he was compromised and manipulated by ~~SUFFICIENTLY ADVANCED~~ aliens who targeted his very direct moral makeup.

Laporte gets a shadowy companion who speaks in pseudomystic portents. But her visions are also full of reminders that this mystical strain is just human interpretation of some broader tactical reality. And ultimately she and her supporting cast do something pretty unusual for a story about prophecy and awful choice ordained by the gods: they figure out how to use their technological tools to attack the prophecy and exploit its underpinnings so they can learn more. They've started to behave proactively - and this occurs in a mission that (of course) is full of metanarrative.

But it's no coincidence IN TURN that this is only enabled by adopting the technology and the very modes of thought used by the Shivans. Just as FreeSpace 2's Shivans devoured and unmade the story of FreeSpace 1, revealing themselves to be more alien and dangerous than we expected, the Blue Planet Shivans have started to destroy the archetypical story we saw in AoA. They're not technologically stagnant: they have a wholly separate mode of consciousness and development, designed to confound computational foresight. The story doesn't shy away from the fact that in the long run, the Shivans are invincible.

And the Vishnans, similarly, have such enormous cognitive firepower that it's clearly unrealistic for our human characters to straight up outwit or trick them. Their agency is DEEPLY confined and that's something the story has to wrestle with too. Bei and Laporte both face the possibility that they are basically payloads, and that the narratives they're being fed are tailored to them with inscrutable precision.

But the fact that our universe is dominated by these vast mechanisms doesn't mean there's no space between the gears. I don't want to talk about exactly where that space comes from, but I think it is and will be satisfying and at least modestly believable.

On good days I honestly believe that unlike Mass Effect or (even) Revelation Space, we have a shot at pulling off an arc that's both a satisfying primary monomyth narrative with love and triumph and loss and respectful of the sober realities of the insanely powerful alien intelligences at play. More than anything else, we don't want to compromise the weird alien power of the Shivans, and we want to make sure the Vishnans - who started out too white hat and relatable - stay equally chilling and vast.

I guess what I'm promising here is that we are aware of the cliches and even though we know they are useful we want to continue interrogating and challenging them. Except for the stuff that'll be straight up booming music monomyth narrative. We like that too.

[Janos]

I like your style.

This is all correct analysis. I think with BP we are trying to walk a very narrow tightrope between our cake and eating it (you can tell I'm a Good Writer), in particular with the layers of conspiracy and the role of the human agent.

I think it's satisfying to find intentionality and design behind everything. Chance and chaos are huge players in the Lacanian Real Hangout Zone and it's sometimes interesting to find ways to incorporate them into fiction, but with BP we very intentionally set out to make a big chess game full of ominously titled secret orders and hidden cabals that live in wild moral territory. It's something I have a weakness for as a writer but I also think it's something readers can grab onto and engage with: it's fun to say 'ah, now I understand why X did Y, so I can predict that George RR Martin will never finish the next book' or whatever

When you manage to throw MJ12 there I am truly impressed. Also I agree with your analysis re: George RR Martin

The question of the human agent and choice is a big one in the narrative. That one I think we're much more interested in subverting and exploring. Games are fun when your decisions matter and stories are fun when the characters seem to have meaningful choices, but at the same time, BP's characters (in act 3 in particular) have started to tug at the threads of the space opera archetype.

Bei gets to sacrifice his humanity to save the people he loves in a very archetypical story. Then a crazy lady shows up to yell at him about how he was compromised and manipulated by ~~SUFFICIENTLY ADVANCED~~ aliens who targeted his very direct moral makeup.

Laporte is bat**** insane. I like the way how the team hints at Laporte's plot experiences being ultimately irrelevant, since she is a tabula rasa and only an avatar of something else. We The Spectator is a horrendous killing machine and plot itself exists to give us more chances to kill stuff.

Laporte gets a shadowy companion who speaks in pseudomystic portents. But her visions are also full of reminders that this mystical strain is just human interpretation of some broader tactical reality. And ultimately she and her supporting cast do something pretty unusual for a story about prophecy and awful choice ordained by the gods: they figure out how to use their technological tools to attack the prophecy and exploit its underpinnings so they can learn more. They've started to behave proactively - and this occurs in a mission that (of course) is full of metanarrative.

But it's no coincidence IN TURN that this is only enabled by adopting the technology and the very modes of thought used by the Shivans. Just as FreeSpace 2's Shivans devoured and unmade the story of FreeSpace 1, revealing themselves to be more alien and dangerous than we expected, the Blue Planet Shivans have started to destroy the archetypical story we saw in AoA. They're not technologically stagnant: they have a wholly separate mode of consciousness and development, designed to confound computational foresight. The story doesn't shy away from the fact that in the long run, the Shivans are invincible.

I found this plot point interesting and well made. Suboptimality, random chance and long timescales are essential concepts in evolutionary theory and, as such, at least superficially more attributable to creation of increasingly complex systems. To yield these as a method of destruction in a narrative that has the definite metaphysical holistic undercurrent to it was fresh.

And the Vishnans, similarly, have such enormous cognitive firepower that it's clearly unrealistic for our human characters to straight up outwit or trick them. Their agency is DEEPLY confined and that's something the story has to wrestle with too. Bei and Laporte both face the possibility that they are basically payloads, and that the narratives they're being fed are tailored to them with inscrutable precision.

The Vishnans of WiH are much better than Vishnans in AoA, mostly because the narrator is different. In AoA they were dangerously close to the antishivan, which made their presence feel almost contrived. And then there is the entire narrative of the trimurti. If you take it at face value that is all there is, eternally, and nothing else, which is sometimes a difficult position in a game where the ultimate solution is to shoot **** until it explodes. Plotwise introducing a particle and antiparticle is not always a wise choice, unless you wish to point at the emptiness after the cataclysm.

But the fact that our universe is dominated by these vast mechanisms doesn't mean there's no space between the gears. I don't want to talk about exactly where that space comes from, but I think it is and will be satisfying and at least modestly believable.

On good days I honestly believe that unlike Mass Effect or (even) Revelation Space, we have a shot at pulling off an arc that's both a satisfying primary monomyth narrative with love and triumph and loss and respectful of the sober realities of the insanely powerful alien intelligences at play. More than anything else, we don't want to compromise the weird alien power of the Shivans, and we want to make sure the Vishnans - who started out too white hat and relatable - stay equally chilling and vast.

What do you believe in bad days?

I guess what I'm promising here is that we are aware of the cliches and even though we know they are useful we want to continue interrogating and challenging them. Except for the stuff that'll be straight up booming music monomyth narrative. We like that too.

Good to hear!

And by the way, I really liked WiH. Great missions, nice variety and good overall mood. It wiped the floor with AoA. The plot goes forwards well and is tight enough and the main characters have some flesh around their bones. It definitely suffers from the lack of voice acting and I feel that the interlude CASSANDRA missions could be somewhat tighter or even more psychedelic. They seem too normal; the horror sequences also have the jump scare factor pretty high. But nevertheless it was great fun, which ultimately is all that matters to me.

[Soulrheever]

As far as the Dreamscape is concerned, it would seem reasonable to be able to fly with reverse thrust, glide, and a whole heap of speed. Make cruising around while talking to people a little more interesting, and reduce some of the transit time between conversations. 

Don't think it needs any psychedelicness though, it's already pretty trippy conceptually (And has awesome music)

[AdmiralRalwood]

I feel that the interlude CASSANDRA missions could be somewhat tighter or even more psychedelic

The next release is apparently going to do a lot more with the dreamscape.

[QuakeIV]

Really enjoyed reading this analysis.

[Piemanlives]

I've not played act three... Yet. But wondered who the first uef. Gtva contact was between...

If you've played AoA then you should know that answer, if not you should probably go and do that.

[Colonol Dekker]

I voiced a certain part and only realised the other day that unless it was retconned, my part was the one.

[Wobble73]

Let me guess Dekker, you were the Cockney sounding fellow. LOL

[Piemanlives]

Might have I misread your comment originally dekker?

[X3N0-Life-Form]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Orestes Control has played AoA, I think he was talking about act 3.

[Piemanlives]

But wondered who the first uef. Gtva contact was between...

I am now confused by this part of this statement.

[Colonol Dekker]

unless it was retconned

Mayhaps clarity could be defined by this.

[Piemanlives]

Possibly.

[Leeko]

IS THAT A BATTLETECH REFERENCE, BATTUTA?

Because Tyra Miraborg crashed her aerofighter into the bridge of the Dire Wolf...

Batutta, you are officially The Coolest, and I am ashamed I never caught that

ed: er and sorry for the necroquote but yanno this kind of thing happens when you lurk like I do

[Grizzly]

I just finished BP WiH up to it's current point of completion.

Two notes that I should mention:
Dreamscape is an interesting way of handling things, but it's a bit... inconvenient.
Some characters in the dreamscape kept talking about as if I had annihilated a certain cell (Burned them all), whilst I am quite sure that I only annihilated anythign that was shooting at me, and performed the boarding operation.
I did first annihilate the entire colony, but I thought that that was a bit egrious (and too easy), so I restarted the mission.

Not sure if bug or intentional design.

[Luis Dias]

surely a bug. they do change their talking points depending on how you managed the mission.

[Grizzly]

Hmm. Yeah, I got the B and B+ dialogues, whilst I should have gotten the A dialogues. Seems like the original outcame came trough, rather then the outcome I got when I immeaditily restarted the mission.

Would a full campaign restart help? I have a feeling this will affect later acts.

[X3N0-Life-Form]

I'm not sure, I don't think I've ever had the didn't-burn-everyone dialogue, despite me not burning everyone most of the time. I'd wait until the next BP release before restarting, iirc there's a bunch of other bugs they had to fix.

Maybe a BP team member could advise you better.

[General Battuta]

I bet the problem is that we're idiots and didn't implement those features right. It's a lot harder to test persistence stuff, since it doesn't work in the techroom and has to be done in campaign mode.

Still, I'm not sure why it wouldn't work...I'd have to look at the logic.