Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: The E on February 17, 2018, 04:06:45 am
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Today's Nightly build (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=94495.0) includes a new version of the F3 lab.
The biggest change in there is that this new lab allows you to preview mission backgrounds through the "Backgrounds" rider that has been added next to the "Ships" and "Weapons" riders. Clicking on it will open a window listing all available missions, sorted by the vp or directory they're in; if you then click on a mission name, that mission's background will be loaded.
It is important to note that, similar to FRED, nebula backgrounds are (at the moment, anyway) not displayed correctly; furthermore, if no ship or weapon has been selected, backgrounds will not be rendered.
This also changes the camera controls, the new controls are:
- Hold LMB + Mouse movement rotates the ship
- Hold RMB + Mouse movement rotates the camera
- Hold Shift + Hold LMB + Mouse movement up/down moves the camera towards/away from the ship
The "Render Options" window has been updated as well: It now includes sliders to directly adjust the -bloom_intensity, -spec_static and -ambient_factor commandline options (spec_point and spec_tube only affect point and tube lights respectively, i.e. lights off of lasers, explosions and beams; they cannot be previewed in the lab) and a checkbox to switch -no_emissive_light on or off.
A few things have been removed: It is no longer possible to switch to different LODs on models or display a ship's debris; the former is something you can simulate by moving the camera far away so that the LOD switch happens "naturally". Debris has been disabled for the moment until I can figure out how to actually make it work within the context of the new lab, this will come back. For similar reasons, you cannot preview the techroom models of weapons; this too will find its way back in, but not for now.
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Seems to be working for me. Anything specific you want us to check for?
Also, since the movement controls are different from FRED (or in-game for that matter) can we get a help option that tells us what they are?
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Also, since the movement controls are different from FRED (or in-game for that matter) can we get a help option that tells us what they are?
This is addressed here (https://github.com/scp-fs2open/fs2open.github.com/pull/1612).
Also, I just noticed that glowpoints attached to rotating subsystems do not rotate correctly, that's something you don't need to tell me :).
As for feedback: I don't know? Just tell me what you guys would like to see added to the lab?
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Excited for the new Lab!
I am bummed that we lost easy access to lods/debris/tech models (for now). I used to click through those, forcing the engine to load each one to check for errors. However this method of viewing lods will be super helpful if there's a distance measurement on the screen.
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Without having seen it actually with my own eyes yet: what mjn.mixael said.
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Without having seen it myself yet, too- That would end up that you would have to keep an outdated built around to do easy debugging. Wouldn't be good...
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Excited for the new Lab!
I am bummed that we lost easy access to lods/debris/tech models (for now). I used to click through those, forcing the engine to load each one to check for errors. However this method of viewing lods will be super helpful if there's a distance measurement on the screen.
I shall add a distance printout soon.
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Excited for the new Lab!
I am bummed that we lost easy access to lods/debris/tech models (for now). I used to click through those, forcing the engine to load each one to check for errors. However this method of viewing lods will be super helpful if there's a distance measurement on the screen.
This is why I had asked if both the old and new lab could be maintained together for at least a while until there was no advantage to the old one.
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Having checked it out now, I got to say, it's really nice. Makes it really easy to make screenshots of a specific ship, and should be massively helpful with getting reflect maps to look right in the future etc.
Being able to select backgrounds from missions like that is :yes:
Selectable lods is preferable over the zoom out lods though. Since most of the level 2-3-4 lods tend to be kind of hard to see with the distance you have to zoom out for them...
Edit: forgot to mention, the controls for the camera/ship dont really seem ideal. Rotating things seem 'off'
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I think this is pretty cool and being able to select backgrounds is pretty cool as well. This is a big help in previewing models and maps!
So here's my small ideas/issues with the lab so far:
Show Thrusters doesn't seem to always work. It seems to only load the first set of loaded thrusters. Like load up a GTF Ulysses, then try an SF Mara. The Mara won't have thrusters.
Camera controls are a bit weird. When mouse dragging is a thing, usually the object rotates in a way that follows the mouse movement, but here it seems like the pitch is inverted. Maybe invert that and it'd be easier to use.
Reset view would be pretty cool!
And reset lighting? The ambient, direct and bloom sliders default to minimum, but those are not the default values.
I know its maybe not in the scope of this, but scroll bars would be great for those species/mod paths with lots of ships/missions. (Or maybe a way to paginate at least?)
Also this is a taste thing, but I've never been a big fan of "trackball" style object rotation. It introduces this weird tilt to the view that I always try to correct with moderate success. I like "turntable" style view rotation, which basically has no bank in it. Maybe some key combo could toggle/switch/activate one camera rotation style to the other?
Lastly, this has always been a great feature, but its always been sadly hidden away to a key that is not documented at all within the game. I think it'd be cool if some icon or something could be added to the tech room that would load up the selected ship in the lab. Just to make this more accessible and user friendly.
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Holy wow, what have I missed??? What is this "lab"? It sounds awesome!
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Press "F3" in the mainhall and find out.
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So hey, reviving an old topic. Has there been plans to actually change or add to the current camera controls? I find the new camera controls kind of frustrating to use, it seems needlessly hard to position a ship precisely the way I want to, compared to the old camera scheme.
Or to put it differently, please add the things Axem posted.
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Could some of the features from the old F3 lab (transparency and stuff) be readded? I've been keeping outdated builts for months now.
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So hey, reviving an old topic. Has there been plans to actually change or add to the current camera controls? I find the new camera controls kind of frustrating to use, it seems needlessly hard to position a ship precisely the way I want to, compared to the old camera scheme.
Or to put it differently, please add the things Axem posted.
+1
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So hey, reviving an old topic. Has there been plans to actually change or add to the current camera controls? I find the new camera controls kind of frustrating to use, it seems needlessly hard to position a ship precisely the way I want to, compared to the old camera scheme.
Or to put it differently, please add the things Axem posted.
Yeah, having just tried it out, the camera controls are very confusing. Copy/pasting the camera controls from the old lab would be much appreciated.
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So hey, reviving an old topic. Has there been plans to actually change or add to the current camera controls? I find the new camera controls kind of frustrating to use, it seems needlessly hard to position a ship precisely the way I want to, compared to the old camera scheme.
Or to put it differently, please add the things Axem posted.
Yes. :nod: But...
Lastly, this has always been a great feature, but its always been sadly hidden away to a key that is not documented at all within the game. I think it'd be cool if some icon or something could be added to the tech room that would load up the selected ship in the lab. Just to make this more accessible and user friendly.
...seems to be rather spoilerish to me. While feature documentation is important, the F3 lab was (to me) always the place you should go when you finished the entire campaign.
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So hey, reviving an old topic. Has there been plans to actually change or add to the current camera controls? I find the new camera controls kind of frustrating to use, it seems needlessly hard to position a ship precisely the way I want to, compared to the old camera scheme.
Or to put it differently, please add the things Axem posted.
Yes. :nod: But...
Lastly, this has always been a great feature, but its always been sadly hidden away to a key that is not documented at all within the game. I think it'd be cool if some icon or something could be added to the tech room that would load up the selected ship in the lab. Just to make this more accessible and user friendly.
...seems to be rather spoilerish to me. While feature documentation is important, the F3 lab was (to me) always the place you should go when you finished the entire campaign.
I just learned about the F3 tab from this recent post...it's quite awesome!
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Seems like FSO feature documentation coverage on the wiki and elsewhere is a bit... insufficient. I remember it took me a long time (also probably years) to figure out where these cool screens came from.
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Couple of months later, still nothing?
The E, what gives?
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Man, these shiplab camera controls are insufferable. Trying to line up a ship just right is an exercise in frustration.
Nice job implementing it like this, without any input from the people using it, and then not adressing any of feedback afterwards. Much appreciated. :yes:
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SCP, is it feasible to revert the camera controls only?
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Man, these shiplab camera controls are insufferable. Trying to line up a ship just right is an exercise in frustration.
Nice job implementing it like this, without any input from the people using it, and then not adressing any of feedback afterwards. Much appreciated. :yes:
I haven't used the lab in some time so I cannot comment on how difficult the new camera controls are but I can comment on how the changes were discussed here.
Someone (this is a general problem I see and is not specific to The E so I'll keep this generic) spent a lot of time on improving the internal structure of the lab code which makes it much easier to use in the future and brings it more in line with how the rest of the game is rendered. And now, people are constantly complaining about the new code :nono:
If I were the contributor of this code, I would think twice before working on the FSO code again since apparently people don't like my contributions. This is how you lose people as code contributors!
We are all volunteers here so if I have the feeling that my work isn't valued, then I will direct my free coding time somewhere else.
This is all I have to say on this matter. Maybe the controls can be fixed, maybe they can't. But why should I (or any other coder) invest the time required to do this if some people in the community will only post passive aggressive messages about the changes?
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I haven't used the lab in some time so I cannot comment on how difficult the new camera controls are but I can comment on how the changes were discussed here.
Yeah and that is sometimes part of the issue, no? Coders adding something without considering how usable it is for the end user.
Someone (this is a general problem I see and is not specific to The E so I'll keep this generic) spent a lot of time on improving the internal structure of the lab code which makes it much easier to use in the future and brings it more in line with how the rest of the game is rendered. And now, people are constantly complaining about the new code :nono:
These 'generic general global statements' are pointless, and also blatantly unfair. Did you even check the previous posts in this thread? There is plenty of praise about the new feature in addition with user feedback on things that could be improved. It's not some endless string of complaints, it's a bunch of posts with user feedback. There is a difference.
If I were the contributor of this code, I would think twice before working on the FSO code again since apparently people don't like my contributions. This is how you lose people as code contributors!
We are all volunteers here so if I have the feeling that my work isn't valued, then I will direct my free coding time somewhere else.
The contributor of this code added something in February and hasn't addressed any of the points raised by the users since then, that's more than 8 months later.
Again, this seems like a weirdly unfair thing to say. "You made a passive aggressive post in frustration on this outstanding issue that hasn't been fixed in 8 months, nor is it getting any kind of response from the coder responsible. You are the reason why coders quit!".
I don't understand why you are the one who seems to feel like he's being personally attacked here. Have I or other people who use the new code and features been unreasonable and rude to you recently?
This is all I have to say on this matter. Maybe the controls can be fixed, maybe they can't. But why should I (or any other coder) invest the time required to do this if some people in the community will only post passive aggressive messages about the changes?
I don't know man, what else can I do after 8 months of having to deal with extremely frustrating camera controls that are apparantly not getting adressed one way or another? I keep bumping the thread and I get silence from the coder responsible. But yeah, I'm totally the reason why coders quit. That seems like a fair thing to say in this case? :confused:
We are all volunteers here so if I have the feeling that my work isn't valued, then I will direct my free coding time somewhere else.
Same? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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This wasn't a post about me or anyone in particular. I simply tried to point out that I felt like the current way of discussing the problem is not effective for solving the issue. I don't really have a solution for this problem but I wanted to try to show a possible reason for why this or other issues have not been fixed yet.
The reason why I wrote my previous post was that I thought about fixing the issue but then I saw your post and simply asked myself "Why should I bother fixing this?". Maybe I'll take a look at it at some point, maybe not. My point is that passive aggressive posts aren't helping you if you want to get someone to fix an issue.
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This wasn't a post about me or anyone in particular. I simply tried to point out that I felt like the current way of discussing the problem is not effective for solving the issue.
Yeah, okay, you have to understand it doesn't work that way. If you felt like this was some kind of issue that has happened frequently recently and you felt the need to adress it globally, you could have done so in a seperate thread. By posting it here, especially in response to my frustrated post makes it very much personally directed at my door. You can say you didn't mean it that way, but that's not how it works. And thus, I will respond to your post as if you adressed it me.
I don't really have a solution for this problem but I wanted to try to show a possible reason for why this or other issues have not been fixed yet.
You really didn't put much thought in your post then. Because had you stopped and read the previous posts, looked at the dates of each post and taken everything into account, you would realize that this cannot possibly be the reason in this particular case.
The reason why I wrote my previous post was that I thought about fixing the issue but then I saw your post and simply asked myself "Why should I bother fixing this?". Maybe I'll take a look at it at some point, maybe not.
What I don't get is that you asked yourself this, yet you didn't answer your own question.
Q: "Why should I bother fixing this?"
A: "This issue has been open for over 8 months and is very clearly a point of frustration for the game developers, yet repeated pleads asking when this issue will finally be adressed, have been met with nothing but silence. I can understand why at this point Spoon would start to get a bit passive aggressive in tone, he would probably be grateful if I fixed this issue for him."
You're calling for more empathy towards coders, which is fine. I mean, I personally have tried my darnest in recent years to be appreciative towards coders when they add cool features and fix annoying bugs. Yet oddly, you seem to display no empathy towards the frustrations of the game developers who had to deal with a particular issue for more than 8 month and is getting blatantly ignored on the issue.
My point is that passive aggressive posts aren't helping you if you want to get someone to fix an issue.
Repeatedly bumping the thread didn't produce any replies from coders. But when I start getting passive aggressive because I'm frustrated with how this issue is ignored, presto, an actual (very competent) coder shows up. Your point doesn't seem very strong.
All of that being said, I've asked DahBlount if he could have a go at this issue and he said he would look into it. So maybe, hopefully, we'll finally have some workable camera controls back in the shiplab after all this time, soonish.
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Quick question: would uninverting pitch when rotating a ship help, even if it doesn't solve all (or even most) of the problems with the controls? It's a really easy fix, just taking out a negation, but I want to make sure someone actually wants this before I submit it.
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Reset view would be pretty cool!
And reset lighting? The ambient, direct and bloom sliders default to minimum, but those are not the default values.
Would you prefer separate keybinds for this or do you want a single key to reset both of these? I assume the first means resetting to the ship to its initial position and rotation values, and the second means setting the initial slider values to be whatever is passed in on the command line.
Edit 2:
I'm not sure how well this was known but I'm fairly certain that changing this sliders will persist outside the lab (I know this is true for bloom just from quick testing), so your changes will apply without having to restart FSO, which is nice.
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I am very sorry. I would like to apologize for my ignoring this thread; usability issues should never be ignored by a developer, and that's exactly what I did once the code reached the "works for me" state.
Axem's proposed fix is definitely workable, and shouldn't take much time to implement; We have a long weekend coming up here, and I'll code it up then. This is a firm commitment from me: There will be a PR and test build on next Sunday at the latest, implementing "turntable" style controls.
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There will be a PR and test build on next Sunday at the latest, implementing "turntable" style controls.
Yay, looking forward to that :yes:
I would just like to add: The F3 lab is a modders dream, and your new additional features look very useful.
Improving the ease-of-use for the lab is very well invested time.
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No hard feelings, glad you're getting on this!
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PR is up: https://github.com/scp-fs2open/fs2open.github.com/pull/1920
A test build implementing the changes in it (AVX2 x64) is available here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/oxw3u87y80lyqfb/new_lab_controls.7z?dl=0
Other test builds available on request.
A quick note about the pitch rotation in particular: For silly math reasons, pitch is restricted to only allow a 180 degree rotation (i.e. pointing completely down to pointing completely up); don't be alarmed when rotation suddenly stops.
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Turns out my I7 2600k doesn't support AVX2, making the game crash on start up with that build.
Can you get me a MMX build? Can I have just a regular boring plain AVX or SSE1/2/3/4 build?
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Here you go: AVX build (https://d.gruenprint.de/YlFVETQwN9wOyAEbSvUWL01zkXJl8qPY.7z/rn/new_lab_build.7z) (x64).
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Here you go: AVX build (https://d.gruenprint.de/YlFVETQwN9wOyAEbSvUWL01zkXJl8qPY.7z/rn/new_lab_build.7z) (x64).
Thanks!
@The E
These new camera controls are excellent :yes: :yes:
Shiplab is now in an amazing state.
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Happy to hear it!
Question: Would adding a roll control be useful?
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Yeah, it probably would be.
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Rolling is now in.
New build here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4zcjv8dlfh6cwtn/new_lab_controls_AVX.7z?dl=0
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Yup yup, can confirm is good and excellent. :yes:
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In the next nightly, you will be able to iterate through ships of the same species and weapons of the same type with the up/down arrow keys.
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Good thing. :yes2: Could be be set default mode to pitch and yaw?
@PIe
It is nice workaround when list of ships is bigger than screen height (especially on lower resolution screens).
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I'm actually running into crashes to desktop (the Freespace has stop responding kind of error) and debug catches absolutely nothing. It happens specifically when I select certain models first.
For example, if I try to load the Ulysses first I get a crash. But when I load a terran container first, and then select the Ulysses after, no crash happens and the model loads properly. I don't really any any leads on what it might be, I can load an Aten on first try for example, but a Seth or Tauret crash.
Also +1 for default pitch and yaw instead of no rotation
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I had the same crash when first selecting the ulysses in the lab...
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I've changed the default rotation mode to "Both".
As for the crash, I have no idea where that's coming from; I can't repro it locally.
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I wish I could say something more substantial about the crashing, it occures when trying to get into the techlab too. So it seems to be more a model load thing rather than a shiplab specific thing maybe. It doesn't happen with the two most recently nightlies, though.
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The new camera controls have been merged into the nightlies.
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Would it be possible to get the DebrisLOD/Techroom weapon model view back? Also, it seems like the offset to the weapons isn't adjusted automatically anymore, making them all tiny.
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As of the current nightly (which sadly has no Windows builds), pressing 'v' resets the ship to its default position and rotation and also resets the lighting sliders to the values passed in on the command line.
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The builds were completed, the nightly script just didn't realize it. Suppose we could update the forum post to correct that.
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I'm wondering if I can make feature requests here...
Okay, I will anyway. :P In huge mods like Blue Planet ship and weapon lists (and also the descriptions, I tend to use the Lab instead of Tech Room :D) are loooooooong and sometimes don't fit inside my screen (1080p) even if I pull them up as far as possible. Could we have some sliders or the ability to resize these windows?