Author Topic: Game of Spoilers  (Read 5605 times)

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So, Game of Thrones is back for one last hurrah, so I figured we might as well get the spoiler discussion thread out of the way.
Let's try to keep things under spoiler tags so as to protect the unfortunate soul that might inadvertently glimpse at the thread.

My own thoughts so far :
Spoiler:
- New intro is cool.
- I thought the episode was pretty good at getting us back up to speed after the long break.
- I feel like they've upped the production value significantly for the final season.
- Not much else to comment on, it's essentially a massive "previously on", with a few somewhat significant points being advanced.
- The ending was fun :)

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

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after series 5 onwards there's nothing left but moderate chuckle material
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Offline Sandwich

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I just came here after Ep5 to facepalm.

*facepalm*

That is all.
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Offline Rhymes

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Like I said in the other thread, D&D have taken 7.5 seasons of goodwill and character development and completely destroyed all of it in the last two episodes. I went into 8x05 with very low expectations but holy ****.
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Offline Buckshee Rounds

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Well at least we got
Spoiler:
CLEGANEBOWL AWW YISS

But on a more serious note,
Spoiler:
making Dany the new Big Bad was a hard sell and I didn't buy it. Dare I say it - I think it amounts to character assassination as it is such a reversal as to make her whole arc meaningless.

As a *clang clang boom* spectacle it was fun to watch at times, but the level of destruction and violence was somewhat excessive, to the point where I was getting Hiroshima vibes from the whole ordeal. I haven't quite gathered my thoughts after seeing it, but it felt like watching a mindless summer blockbuster. Cersei was grossly underused, as were a good chunk of the cast seeing as there was very little in the way of character moments.

 

Offline Rhymes

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Spoiler:
I'm not a fan of Dany going nuts either, but there is a basis for it from the source material. She's impulsive, prone to using violence as a solution to her problems, is definitely entitled, and there's a point in ADWD where she basically decides that ruling Meereen in peace is not for her, and that she'd rather be a conqueror. It's definitely possible that she could turn into something very ugly by the finale in Westeros, but it has to be done a little piece at a time, to make the slide believable. Benioff and Weiss instead opted to not do that. In the show, she's still impulsive and has a ruthless streak, but her actions, even when irrational, are understandable, right up until she starts torching King's Landing and everyone in it for ****s and giggles. So instead of watching a character's slow descent into villainy (e.g. Walter White in Breaking Bad), we get "lol she mad queen now." That's been the season's problem in a nutshell: decent ideas that not everyone is going to be a fan of conceptually, that could work with a lot of careful setup and rock-solid execution, except without the setup and execution.

Also, I'm kind of upset that the writing is so bad, because everything else (lighting in 8x03 aside) has been really well-done. The acting is superb, the music is excellent, the cinematography, costumes, all of it. The only real weakpoint is the writing, but because that's so bad, everything else isn't all that enjoyable. It's a shame.
If you don't have Knossos, you need it.

“There was a button," Holden said. "I pushed it."
"Jesus Christ. That really is how you go through life, isn't it?”

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Spoiler:
Okay, well, that was something... just finished episode 5.

In general, I think the show has gone a little downhill after losing the source material.  Say what you will about GRRM - and I can say A LOT - but his work has some actual nuance to it, whereas the show is basically smashing us over the head at every turn.

Dany losing her **** shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who has read the books.  It has been well-telegraphed for some time that Daenerys is not a good-hearted benevolent saviour - she is above all a bit of a spoiled child who makes rash decisions, and she's unhinged right from the second book onward.  That said, the show has handled this clumsily.  Most of the nuance and telegraphing has been brushed aside and Daenerys has largely been set up as a saviour figure, so the rapid reversal in this last season has been especially jarring.

On top of that, the loss or Rhaegal was stupidly and poorly done, and the destruction of the Iron Fleet and King's Landing aerial defenses is made even more idiotic for it.  The Iron Fleet's scorpions should never have posed a realistic threat to the dragons, and while it would have been possible to kill off Rhaegal with one using surprise - an ambush from concealment on Dragonstone, perhaps - the notion that an entire fleet could hide from the dragons and knock a maneuvering dragon straight out of the air with consecutive shots is just goddamned ludicrous.

I'm curious to watch the last episode if only to see how things end but yes, I agree with Rhymes - the writing this season has taken a serious nosedive.  I guess it was foreshadowed by the nosedive of Viserion last season.  Which reminds me - the destruction of The Wall was just as badly done last season too.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 11:07:49 pm by MP-Ryan »
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Offline Rhymes

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I agree with everything MP-Ryan said, with one difference:

Spoiler:
Personally, I never really read Dany as being a spoiled child/unhinged, but that's just me. There's plenty of evidence to support that interpretation, I just didn't agree with it--like Ryan said, there's nuance in the books, and I think that nuance allows for reasonable minds to disagree on what Daenerys is at that point in time.

Not so much with the show.
If you don't have Knossos, you need it.

“There was a button," Holden said. "I pushed it."
"Jesus Christ. That really is how you go through life, isn't it?”

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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I'm a bit behind. Just finished 8.2... Geeze those first two episodes are slooooooooooooooooooooow. They should have been mashed together or something. I was legit bored.
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Offline Galemp

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You should stop watching.

Seriously. Just, stop at S8E2. Come up with your own ending and let it be.
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Offline Rhymes

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8x03 isn't bad. It's dumb, but not any dumber than Season 7 was, and the big emotional beats work. After that, though, it's a trainwreck.

e: fixed a space that was annoying me
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 08:04:17 pm by Rhymes »
If you don't have Knossos, you need it.

“There was a button," Holden said. "I pushed it."
"Jesus Christ. That really is how you go through life, isn't it?”

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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I'm sitting here watching 8.3 and well... I'm posting here so that says something about how bored I am by all this mindlessness...
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Just caught up to date.
The acting is superb, the music is excellent, the cinematography, costumes, all of it. The only real weakpoint is the writing, but because that's so bad, everything else isn't all that enjoyable. It's a shame.
This sums up my thoughts nicely : everything is so well crafted that the weak writing sticks out like a sore thumb.
More detailed thoughts on the past 3 episodes:
Spoiler:
- 8x03 : I thought the episode was mostly alright, with some really good moments, right up until its final 15 minutes or so, which feature the most blatant cases of plot armor I've seen in a long time.
Arya doing a flash step to backstab the Night King was kinda goofy, though I though the sleigh of hand frontstab was nice. As for it being Arya that gets the killing blow on the Big Bad, why not :rolleyes: - although I really wish they had been more subtle with their foreshadowing it...

My biggest beef with it has to be the plot armor, I thought this was a great opportunity to clean up the board, kill characters that we care about or have some importance so that it actually feels like a heavy price was paid for this foregone victory. Hell, I would have been impressed if they had actually made it a defeat, or if killing the NK didn't actually solve the entirety of their undead problem.

- 8x04 : lol @ anti-air balista. I think this is one of the biggest misstep this season. For one, it really stretches believability, its one thing to have magic-guy Night King one-shotting a flying dragon, but a regular old balista doing the same thing... *facepalm* I understand the need to have Cersei & her forces repeatedly hurt Danny personally due to the events of episode 5, but that was *seriously* clumsy...
Overall I think the Iron Fleet has been a bit too much of an "I win" button for Cersei to compensate for her strategic blunders.

-8x05 : I'd like to state for the record that this one was a barrel of fun to watch. Stupid, sure but hellafun :D
What I was expecting : Danny going on rampage with her dragon and burning chunks of the city, inflicting a lot of collateral damage and forcing Cersei's forces to surrender. Continuing this cold, ruthless streak she would then be merciless towards her enemies, possibly wiping out the surrendering Lanister/Golden Company forces and completing her journey to the dark side.

What I didn't expect : going on a stupid/pointless evil rampage after the city surrendered. This ain't a Blizzard game, you can't just have your characters go "Lol, I'm evil now", especially when you have sooo much to work with here...

Aside from that:
* the Clegane duel was fun
* I would have prefered if Jamie bled to death long before meeting Cersei
* dragon fire is apparently more explody than melty when it comes to stones
* **** the Iron Throne, build a new throne out of skulls, that way you can have your followers go all "Blood for the blood queen ! Skulls for the Skull Throne ! Let the World BURN !!!"

 

Offline General Battuta

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I'm a bit behind. Just finished 8.2... Geeze those first two episodes are slooooooooooooooooooooow. They should have been mashed together or something. I was legit bored.

This season needed more episodes like them. A lot more. Time was, when this show was ‘good’ (or at least interesting), you got seven episodes of talking per season, two episodes of **** happening, and an episode of wrap up.

But the problem now is the dialogue writing is terrible and there’s nothing for them to do but repeat quips and deliver fan service, so they could never support that. Brienne getting knighted was good though.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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This season needed more episodes like them. A lot more. Time was, when this show was ‘good’ (or at least interesting), you got seven episodes of talking per season, two episodes of **** happening, and an episode of wrap up.

But the problem now is the dialogue writing is terrible and there’s nothing for them to do but repeat quips and deliver fan service, so they could never support that. Brienne getting knighted was good though.

AGREE.  Particularly more setup with Bran and why ye olde Night King really wants to prioritize him.  The show has done far too much hand-waving for expedience since losing the source material to work from, and been poorer for it.  The way the Wall was handled really pissed me off, and I had hopes for season 8 after episodes 1/2, but 3 was poorly executed, 4 contained some outright stupidity, and 5 just goes further into the "**** nuanced characters, we just want to wrap this **** up."

Ugh.  It's not so much the overarching plot that makes me mad, it's the way it has been handled.  Hopefully, if GRRM ever gets off his ass and finishes the books, his execution is better.  Then again, we're at two books left and he's still adding *IMPORTANT* characters, so that might be a lost hope too.
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Offline mjn.mixael

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I haven't read the books yet, but I intend to. However, I'd say the worst thing that happened to the show was that it got famous for the things it got famous for. I'd venture the worst thing for the books was that the show got famous. GRRM can't just write his fantasy epic off in book land anymore... he's got to please an unusually massive audience.

Episode 4 finished... It was nice to get back to the political stuff, but ugh. I'm not sure who's more done with the show; myself or the writers?
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Offline General Battuta

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The writers clearly shifted from GRRM’s paradigm of “noodle along with feasts and conversations and see what kind of oh **** moments come up” to a model of “invent some oh **** moments and get the characters to them as fast as possible.” GRRM can’t do that because he has only the vaguest idea what will happen; his twists are always built up (sometimes excruciatingly so) because he has to discover them by writing all the setup.

And when all his noodling gets confused and tangled, and it’s no fun to write any more, he just stops.

 

Offline Det. Bullock

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It's just the same thing that happend with Wheel of Time, Robert Jordan had the last chapters of the last book already written by the time he published the third book but getting there naturally proved to be more complex than he thought and ended up writing 10+ books before dying and even Brandon Sanderson had to split the last book in three because there was just no chance everything necessary would have fit in it. Martin himself has been forced to split and add books before, the same thing is happening again and I wonder why people are surprised.

Now with GoT people are seeing what hack writers that just churn out stuff end up with when they decide to finish an epic fantasy with loads and loads of characters as fast as possible because "themes are for school essays" (yes, they said that).
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Offline mjn.mixael

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I don't understand why HBO insisted on just 6 episodes for season 8. This show makes them all the money... They could have spread it out more if they wanted. That might have helped some... maybe not if the writing was going to be awful either way.

Though it has been funny to see the kind of HBO ads that run before the show (at least on HBO Now) during S8. "look at all our other shows.. we have so many shows! And the actors, oh the big name actors! Please, please consider not ending your subscription this week. Pleeeaase. Look at all the shows we have!"

(Most HBO shows on HBO Now run a short trailer for a specific show. The GOT S8 ads have been about HBOs entire catalog.)
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