[Charismatic]

[This contains spelling and grammical errors, I apologise in advace]

Galatic Terran Idiots.. no, more like rebels.
From what I understand the GTI, supposed to be the Intelegence; became a hi-tech group of freelancers who were out to have fun and to totally cover up their big mistakes.

GTI were a pain in the ass. They built the Hecate (right?) Shivan-Terran mixed tech. Never thought to ask command. Takes long ass time to kill it too. Was there more then that one?
Why would GTI let command know about it- and then kill it?

In Silent Threat- they totally break rules, and wipe out Terrians AND Vasudans.
(What was with the fake ship anyways, i dont remember who they were, or what intel we get on them. Its been a while.)

So the GTI didnt help with intelegence, they did their own Ops.

Discuss.

[Solatar]

They were corrupt...

[Duelron1001]

Well our mod has a story surronding the GTI, the HOL, the Shiavns and a strange device. More or less for what we can tell from Silent Threat the GTI went mad for one reson or another, started killing everything/everyone; simular to the HOL. Our story basic links these too sides through this simularity. I can't say anymore as that would spoil the story.

Also there is another Hades, its seen in the intro to FS 2. I don't know what happens to this ship or if there are anymore of them.

[Nuclear1]

What is the point of this thread? This has been discussed hundreds (or maybe just dozens) of times, but I'll just start again...

The GTI (Galactic Terran Intelligence) was initially intended to perform the same purposes as the GTVA SOC in Freespace 2. They develop new technologies, perform espionage and deep-cover activities.

Following the Great War, a rogue element (for emphasis: the entire GTI did not rebel, contrary to some belief) of the Intelligence branch used the GTI-constructed GTD Hades Superdestroyer to mount guerilla and terrorist attacks on the GTA and VPE, hoping to perform a coup de'tat on the weakening Alliance.

The GTI also performed intense studies into Shivan technology and biology, developed Shivan weapons for Terran ships, all of which laid the cornerstone for Admiral Bosch's future ETAK Project. The rogue element of the GTI used this technology to further its rebellion, all until a loyal sect of Intelligence located and destroyed their base of operations in Beta Aquilae.

Silent Threat should not be used to fully comprehend the GTI or the Hades Rebellion. There were so many different plot holes and unanswered questions (that needed to be answered, unlike the Capella supernova, per se) that the true intent of GTI was truly hard to comprehend.

From what we understand:

• GTI had advanced weapon systems and Shivan technology
• Rogue GTI forces destroyed the GTD Krios to keep their intentions secret
• The rogue GTI base of operations was destroyed by forces loyal to the GTA
• The Hades was originally intended to be significant in the plot, not just making a single mission appearance
• GTI had extensive information behind Shivan tactics and weaponry (hence the Hades array of weapons)
• A rogue element of GTI was planning to overthrow the GTA and VPE

Originally posted by Duelron1001
Well our mod has a story surronding the GTI, the HOL, the Shiavns and a strange device. More or less for what we can tell from Silent Threat the GTI went mad for one reson or another, started killing everything/everyone; simular to the HOL. Our story basic links these too sides through this simularity. I can't say anymore as that would spoil the story.

Also there is another Hades, its seen in the intro to FS 2. I don't know what happens to this ship or if there are anymore of them.

For one, the campaign mentioned here seems far too complex. If you can somehow find a way to mix the Hammer of Light, remnants of the Shivan armada, AND the GTI into one story without remaking Silent Threat in its originally, crappy form, then go ahead. Do try to limit yourself to one or two primary antagonists, though.

As for the Hades, there was only one. The Hades seen crashed in Deneb in the Freespace 2 intro is exactly the kind of plothole that I am referring to in the earlier part of my post. Apparently, there was supposed to be more involving the Hades, but it was never done.

There could not have been a second Hades. Unless GTI was willing to push even more of its one-of-a-kind research and development into a second, more-costly SuperDestroyer, while trying to combat the GTA, VPE, remnants of the Shivan armada, and the HOL, then they would honestly be bankrupt. The Hades had about equal the firepower of the Colossus (maybe even moreso with the Shivan anti-capital ship beams), more armor than aforementioned Juggernaut, and greater technological advancements.

To replicate the Hades would effectively mean a rogue element of a small branch of the GTA to build two warships equivalent of the Colossus. Way too much time and far too many resources.

But, in simpler terms, refer to Solatar's post.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by nuclear1
If you can somehow find a way to mix the Hammer of Light, remnants of the Shivan armada, AND the GTI into one story without remaking Silent Threat in its originally, crappy form, then go ahead. Do try to limit yourself to one or two primary antagonists, though.

Silent Threat: Reborn is doing just that...

Hmm.  This might be good discussion material.  Moved to the FSPort forum.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

it wasn't the entire GTI, it was a rogue splinter group.  The entirety of the GTI got a bum wrap over it, they all look like bumbling idiots because of what this rogue group did.  Now the thing that we never do find out.  Who was behind it?  Who masterminded not only the construction of the Hades, but also the coverup?  Does the GTVA even know?

[Duelron1001]

nuclear1 - It may of being only a rogue splinter group, but it involed someone right at the top, so for the most part the rest of the GTI were following orders. It wasn't till the player and other personely that survied the GTID Krios went to the GTVA's top that the rebelion was known about. The GTVA (well really the GTA) wanted this sorted out with people knowing, so it had to be done quickly.  I agree there are far too many plot holes in this area, the Hades in the FS 2 intro is just one of them. But it from these plot hole that we can build stories where we chose what happens.  Who knows what the Hades could of being doing before it was destoryed. How could the GTI have the abilty to produce some many dam Loki while also making the Hades? Why didn't the Shivans go out of there way to stop them, after all their base is in Rose 128, right in the middile of Shivan space? Just for these questions we can say that something going that the player never finds out. This is both a good thing and a bad thing. It alows for us to expand on the story our selves; however it also leaves your normal player without knowning the answers to these question.

Originally posted by nuclear1
For one, the campaign mentioned here seems far too complex. If you can somehow find a way to mix the Hammer of Light, remnants of the Shivan armada, AND the GTI into one story without remaking Silent Threat in its originally, crappy form, then go ahead. Do try to limit yourself to one or two primary antagonists, though.

hehe far too complex? you haven't seen what our main story write has done. find a way to mix them all in; done. remake Silent Threat, no thank you; as its not need. crappy form, have to agree; it could of and should of been better. antagonists? the HOL and the rouge GTI are the good guys here. In fact the those are the sides that the player plays. This story gets down to the very resons that the HOL changed (formaly part of the PVE fleet, till the Shivans turned up) and same for the GTI; hehe but I can't tell you anymore other wise I will have to kill you.

Our mod is for Homeworld 2, not FS 2. It is because of this that we can have much more grander stories unlike what is genraly in FS 2 (this is only due to the fact that you are only a fighter pilot, wheres in FSNA you are an admrial).

[NGTM-1R]

If memory serves, the Krios and her aerospace group were actually the only members of GTVI not in on the Hades Rebellion, considering the information in the Command Briefs you got on the Soyakaze.

Following the destruction of the GTD Krios, all GTI ships, bases, and personnel were to be considered hostile. Not some, but all.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

well if that is true then my memory of ST is faulty and i stand corrected.

[Charismatic]

Yes i remember that.
So the 'Hades Rebellion" was just the consturction of the Hades, which we destroy, by the roge GTI?

If it was only a small splinter of GTI, why were all GTI to be concitered Hostile? I beleive it was a bigger sect of GTI, maby up to half of them at most. Gti didnt do as much as their credited for, so a small section wouldent beable to make a big ship like the Hades. A bigger section of GTI would be.

How do you figure the Hades was intended for the overthorwing of GTA and Vasudan empire (whatever the abb. is), for terrorist actions? If they put their ships togeather in a big assult they coudl take it down. But with much loss. Right?

[Nuclear1]

Duelron, there are so many things wrong with your post I don't even know where to begin.

But let's go through a list:

• All GTA ships (regardless of affiliation with GTI or League of Defense) are designated GTC/GTD/GTF/GTFr, etc. Using the alternate name designation in FRED2, classes could easily be renamed to GTI Orion or GTI Leviathan.
• As for the Lokis, that was just one of the main problems with Silent Threat. Far too many Lokis, not enough lower-tech fighters (Valkyries, Hercs, etc.). Refer to my above post for not trusting Silent Threat for all GTI knowledge.
• Did you even read my post? I clearly stated that the GTI base of operations was in Beta Aquilae. The only mission involving Ross 128 included the player and a squadron from the Soyakaze intercepting a GTI battlegroup that was investigating Shivan wreckage.
• If your writer can somehow pull together all of the above mentioned groups, then go right ahead. Like I said, it would be interesting to see how it gets pulled off, but, hey...

As for the rest of this thread:

The Krios was not just simply the only loyal GTI Destroyer or battlegroup in all of Silent Threat. The Soyakaze, which led the attack on the Jotunheim and the Hades, was surely loyal to the GTI. In addition to this, the Myrmidon (pod retrieval ship) was certainly not rogue. Understandably, the mystery destroyer was. However, the unknown destroyer interfered with the Myrmidon's mission, which was originally intended to end with both Einstein pods being retrieved by the loyal GTI.

Basically, we can't just assume that all GTI ships were hostile, and were all involved in the Hades Rebellion, despite what the Command Briefings said in Silent Threat. There were still a number of GTI forces willing to support the GTA and bring down the Hades Rebellion.

As for Charismatic's last post, you are correct. The Hades Rebellion involved the construction of the GTD Hades, then, under control of the roge GTI, deployment to attack GTA targets. However, though I may be wrong in saying that it was a small splinter group, I still stand by the fact that the entirety of GTI did not rebel.

How do you explain the Hades then, you ask? A Superdestroyer about roughly the size, technological advancement, and power of the Lucifer would simply have taken a good deal of time to create, and, during which, the rogue element of the GTI would have simply seized control of the SuperDestroyer for their own means.

Judging from its weaponry, the Hades was designed with intentions similar to early-FS2 beam weaponry: a weapon designed to penetrate the shields of another Shivan Lucifer. While GTI states that the Hades was simply a superweapon designed to destroy the GTA, I stand by my theory that the Hades was intended to fight for the Alliance.

GTI, at this point, had simply fallen under the influence of high-ranking officials that saw their chance to usurp power from the GTA. GTI was originally intended to perform similar activities to the GTVI in FS2; however, the Hades Rebellion put a bad name on the entire branch, despite the efforts of the loyal sect.

And the Hades, while powerful as it was, could not have simply overthrown the GTA on its own, even with the entire rogue GTI armada behind it. Many factors, including Hammer of Light attacks, Shivan insurgence, and GTA/VPE counterattacks, would have simply overwhelmed the rogue GTI, and put the Hades into a similar position as the Auriga from Derelict: pinned down, and somehow just barely able to escape.

The Alliance would have found some weakness in the Hades; after all, they constructed the vessel in the first place!

[Duelron1001]

So there are only 4 things wrrong according to you? You overlooked all the spelling mistakes?

Lets see what I have to say to your list:

1) I was only pointing out that GTD Krios was a GTI ship, your first post just hinted that you were ignoring the fact that the player was based on a GTI ship, that the the GTI were a mistery to the player.

2) This only shows that they (being the GTI) were able to produce Lokis so fast that other fighters where not need. Also at the time Lokis were to replace some of the current ships like Valkyries, while the Zues was to replace the Athana. Due the GTI's needs in fighters (mostly hit-and-run unlike the rest of the fleet), most of the other fighters wouldn't be needed anyway. With the Hades they must of also felt they didn't need Ursas or Madusas to for their plan. Knowing this it is clear that they were nearly ready to put their plan into affect.

3)The GTI had bases everywhere; if you where to do something like what the GTI were about to do then wouldn't you want to be in places that people didn't expect?

4)We have all ready done it. However we are not releaseing anything that big or importaint untill we use it in our mod.


Onto my comments of the next section of your post:

1)Thats 3 destroyers; they could of being left out of the loop for a reson. eg crew wouldn't of followed orders when the time came or something like that. This should be considered a misstake by the GTI as these ships we so loyal to the GTI that they stoped the rebellion.

2)Well I allways got the imprestion that those loyal to the GTVA left the GTI, as they were being shot at the GTI. So more or less the group that the player plays as is exciled for the rest of the GTI. So you could say that all GTI forces were to be considered hostile. But with out knowing what was happenig regarding GTI forces else where I would not be so keen on admiting this. Basicly I stand by nuclear1 on this.

3)nothing here for me to say, you have all ready corrected your self.

4)The GTI had of resorces aviable to them, but I agree I don't thing that quiet meets the amount that were need for the Hades, thats why they started stealing. As for the power of the Hades, well I never have seen it fire its beam weapon(s), but it is covered with Shivan tech. If the GTVA had being building the Hades the player would of known about it before the comm trasnmistion was intercepted, however it was only after that the Hades was known about. Also the fact that it was covered with Shvain weapons puts it right in the GTI's area of expertecies, after all it is there job to capture alien tech.

5) It could of at some point being for that intention of fighting for the GTVA, this could of even being used to convinse people to work on it; after all whos going to work on somthing that is ment to destory all that you have worked so hard for. Basicaly I stand by you on this one, had things turned out diffrently it could of being the Hades that finshed off the Shivans. But in the end its the captin that is in the chair that decides how a ship is used.

6) Its silly to have two groups both working for the same goal to be sperated by a name. The GTVI should of being formed long ago. Silent Threat is more a crap way of getting rid of GTI in this respect.

7)I think that the idea was for the GTI to tack over quick, then use the Shivans, HOL and full force of the GTA to crush the PVE. Then they will turn their atention to the Shivans. But the defeats the whole point of the Shivans even coming to this area of space (that is if you go with the therory that the Shivans where there to make the to sides stop killing each other).

8) I don't think that the GTVA constricted the Hades so I don't think that they would of stoped it as quick as the player's forces did.

I think that is it. For this discussion you can see that people hold different views from the same events.

[oohal]

would it really hurt to check your spelling

[Nuclear1]

Would it really hurt to actually contribute something to the thread?

As for Duelron's post, now we're starting to talk the same language. I'll post more when I have the time, and when I'm more awake then I am now.

[Taristin]

When I saw the thread title, I thought this was going to be about a VolksWagen...

[Charismatic]

LOL@ above post.

-To penitrate shivan cap shields? What caps had sheilds besides the Lucy; Sathii's?

If the GTVA did concsturct it, then they could build another. If they built a few, then they would be pritty strong to kill sathys. A ton better affect then the Colossus had.

[Nuclear1]

Well, why did you suppose they didn't? The first time they constructed it, the GTI rebelled. How did this happen? They trusted it to Intelligence. Now, to prevent such a weapon of mass destruction from falling into the wrong hands again, they buried all of the Shivan research, including the Hades project, until Bosch resurrected it with ETAK.

And building 'a few' was completely out of the question. Possibly a significant amount of GTA funds went into building the first, and only in desperation to kill the Lucifer if one ever came back. Building 'a few' during the Reconstruction would have killed the economy, which was already struggling to stay above water.

And have you ever tested a Hades versus a Sathanas? Hades goes down pretty quick, even if from the rear (the rear LRed cannon on the juggernaut). It would be a waste like the Colossus, and just about as costly.

[NGTM-1R]

Were you playing the same Silent Threat I was?

Originally posted by nuclear1
The Krios was not just simply the only loyal GTI Destroyer or battlegroup in all of Silent Threat.

Basically, we can't just assume that all GTI ships were hostile, and were all involved in the Hades Rebellion, despite what the Command Briefings said in Silent Threat. There were still a number of GTI forces willing to support the GTA and bring down the Hades Rebellion.

The Soyakaze was a regular GTA navy ship. How do I know this? It's quite simple, really. Reference your first Command Briefing in Silent Threat. The Krios is the only GTI destroyer. Or at least, the only GTI destroyer that the GTA knows of. It follows from this that any other GTI destroyers are not loyal ships, because the GTA does not know of their exsistence and certainly wouldn't approve of them if they did know.

And yes, we can assume that, because you don't declare the entire intelligence arm of your organization to be traitors without a damn good reason. Particularly since once they had done so, the GTA was essentially blind. Note the lack of significant intelligence in your last few Silent Threat missions. You don't know what's going on. Nobody in the GTA knows what's going on. That's GTI's job.

Also the GTA suddenly lost access to all advanced GTI equipment, which only makes sense if both the people who had it (GTI pilots) and the people who made it (some other section of GTI) had absconded with the equipment, the plans for it, and the necessary manufacturing gear.

Or how about the fact that the GTA knew nothing about GTI once it became clear GTI was not behaving in a friendly fashion? Surely if there was a loyalist destroyer, hell even a loyalist cruiser, they would have been able to gain a wealth of information. Instead they had jack diddly. They were deaf, dumb, and blind. They didn't know anything about GTI's intentions, capablities, deployments, current research, even who was working for GTI and who wasn't.
Any GTI capital craft would have had the location of the Jotenheim Installation in their database. But no such ship came forward to provide that information, so instead it took a boarding action against a Faustus to acquire that information.

Originally posted by nuclear1
How do you explain the Hades then, you ask? A Superdestroyer about roughly the size, technological advancement, and power of the Lucifer would simply have taken a good deal of time to create, and, during which, the rogue element of the GTI would have simply seized control of the SuperDestroyer for their own means.

The Hades was constructed in a remarkably short time. Less then three years at most. For a ship integrating technolgies from two totally dissimilar races and dwarfing in scale any previous Terran construction, this almost stretches credulity. The only thing that makes it feasible is that GTI had actually secured the help of Shivans, some Shivans anyways, to assist them.

Originally posted by nuclear1
And the Hades, while powerful as it was, could not have simply overthrown the GTA on its own, even with the entire rogue GTI armada behind it. Many factors, including Hammer of Light attacks, Shivan insurgence, and GTA/VPE counterattacks, would have simply overwhelmed the rogue GTI, and put the Hades into a similar position as the Auriga from Derelict: pinned down, and somehow just barely able to escape.

Actually, it could.

With a Shivan sheathe-shielding system, the Hades is effectively invincible. Throw all the Harbingers at it you want, ram it with an Orion. It won't care. Armed with Shivan weaponry like that of the Lucifer, it is capable of reducing a world to ashes in fourteen hours.

Had the Hades ever gone fully on-line, that would have been the end of it then and there. The sheathe-shield doesn't work in subspace, true. But therein lies the hook: the Lucifer was ultimately killed by its own stupidity. Had it remained behind to engage the Bastion and the Bastion's aerospace group, destroyed them, and then headed for Earth, Earth would have been glassed.

One cannot expect GTI to be so foolish, particularly since they know that the Lucifer was killed by that error. They will be more careful.

Unbeatable in normal space, the Hades can roam around a system, destroy anything that poses a threat to it in subspace, impose its will on any populated worlds or glass them, and then move on to the next system once it is safe to do so. Make no mistake: this a weapon uniquely suited for domination, not defense.

[Nuclear1]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
And yes, we can assume that, because you don't declare the entire intelligence arm of your organization to be traitors without a damn good reason. Particularly since once they had done so, the GTA was essentially blind. Note the lack of significant intelligence in your last few Silent Threat missions. You don't know what's going on. Nobody in the GTA knows what's going on. That's GTI's job.

While your argument is somewhat convincing, the point is that the lack of information in the last few missions came from the same reason that Silent Threat lacked information: because the mission design was far below par. Even if the GTA had lost the entire GTI to the rebellion, it wouldn't have taken a boarding action (which, by the way, where did you produce this?) or the interrogation of any official in GTI ranks to produce the location of the Jotunheim.

The Jotunheim was located smack dab in the Beta Aquilae system. Now, in a system that would very soon be the joint-Terran-Vasudan capital of the Galaxy, would finding an installation the size of an Arcadia be a necessarily difficult option? Tracking a cruiser or a destroyer that is constantly on the move, yes. But a stationary installation would not have been that difficult to locate in such a densely-populated and important system.

And where did anyway ever say that the Hades possessed a Shivan shielding system? Mentioning the ST-12 debriefing is not a viable option: that simply means that it had Shivan weaponry in its turrets.

As for the issue of GTI destroyers, I'll quote you again:

Were you playing the same Silent Threat I was?

If you don't remember, there were two GTI destroyers in one mission. Sure, the unknown destroyer without identification would have been one of the destroyers that the GTA did not know about, but the Myrmidon? It clearly identified itself as a GTI vessel (though inaccurately a cruiser), and was obviously hoaxed by the arrival of the first GTI destroyer.

But, still, you do have valid points, and I will acknowledge those.

[Flaser]

Beside  the above autopsy on availible canon material, ngtm1r I think know very about covert ops or rebellions beside the Star Wars hype or "good loving rebels" and stupid terrorist movies.

You never make a rebellion or any covert organisation where any high ranking memeber has acces to all info!

You make it so that the organistaion is made of cells and only the cell leader has any contact with other cells - he may only know some in between messangers to other cells, and only a greater leader knows about more than a couple of cells - and even he doesn't know the true extent of the society.

This is madness and paranoi, but it's still better than having one of your memebers caught and everybody hanged/raped/tortured the next morning.

This way it always assures that only a tiny fraction of info leaks out and by abandoning an inflitrated cell the organisation can still go on and survive.

What keeps the thing going is propaganda from the higher ups and the strong belief of all memebers in their common goal - along with their willingnes to sacrifice for the said goal.

This also explains why could Bosch follow his own agenda behind the NTF and why he couldn't stop it from becoming a racist jihad against the Vasudans.

What makes the issue even tricker is that even people with no whatsoever loyalty or knowledge can be used for your aims if you have people in key places - especially in the millitary.
You give them false info or just order them to do stuff for your own ends....there is no end to the possibilities.

It's also very unlikely the whole GTI could rise up against the GTA - even with all their personal they could probably only man a couple of ships, they needed a lot of non GTI personal who were willing to follow their charismatic officers as is.

The whole cell setup allows rapid expansion but it takes a lot of time to make a cell a useable base of operation. It takes time until you've clensed it of all uncertain elements along with actually getting into the proper positions.

Beside -  the faction in the GTI weren't HOL fanatics or NTF facist - they probably even had a valid point: the GTA and PVN are both corrupt and inefficient.
They waged a pointless war for 14 years that neither side really wanted and even during the Great War the survival of the management (Earth and Vasuda) was top over the greater good of all people and all the colonist...

....what they attemtpted was a coupe that would have prevented the fragmentation of the GTA or at least lessened its effects.
Sure they would have been dicators, and shadow leaders, but survivors of the anarchy until BETAC came to be IMHO would still chose that.

So in their own regard the GTI rebellion is unlikely either of the other two we know of and was probably more of an insider conspiracy in high circles than the outright separation of the NTF systems -  the HOL was just a band of rouge terrorist IMHO.