[karajorma]

I'm hesitant to dive further in, but I'm concerned that above post doesn't achieve its objectives. You spent a lot of time telling Spoon that he's doing stuff wrong and failing to check boxes, and you close by swearing at him a lot (well, in his direction). I just can't imagine having a positive response to it if I were in Spoon's position.

Spoon's told it from his point of view, I've told it from the point of view of both myself and apparently Scotty. I spent a lot of time on what I felt Spoon did wrong cause I honestly felt it contributed to this issue and if it's not addressed it will continue to be an issue.

I swore a lot cause I want to show how emphatically I want the issue to be laid to rest and in the end, how ridiculously little effort is required from Spoon for the entire issue to be dealt with. Is it really that hard for him to say "Perhaps I should have said to Scotty that I was just making a joke and if I unintentionally came off as insulting to Rev Posix, I'm sorry"? Hell, I don't care if he says it or not, just so long as he doesn't believe he was 100% in the right over the whole issue and he takes that into any future issues that crop up.

When moderation finally got involved in Spoon's forum problems it made the situation much worse. It's hard to condemn him for not mashing report in retrospect.

I was condemning him for allowing the situation to get that bad in the first place without asking for help and then complaining that help never came. By doing that he made things worse. I've never heard him accept any responsibility for allowing things to get that bad. Even though I formally apologised for my part in allowing it to get that bad.

Again, I really don't give a damn if he does or not, just as long as he doesn't keep a festering resentment about it.


Anyway, all the major players have sounded off, let's just wait for Spoon's response and hopefully the whole issue can be resolved.

[General Battuta]

I've mostly been the one complaining that help never reached Spoon. I think it's very problematic to blame him for 'allowing things to get bad'. People came into his forum and attacked him. He was a solo project lead fairly new to the forums. HLP policy at the time more or less minimized the role of the report function and people got yelled at for using it. When other projects faced directed hostility they often had admins directly attached to deal with the problems right away, so there was really no example case for Spoon to follow. The institutional resources required for him to know what to do were pretty much absent.

I think the responsibility needs to remain firmly on the attackers here.

[Zacam]

Well, let's give it some time to see how things develop. In the end, as myself and Axem were reached out to in terms of double-checking and over-seeing this, we'll ultimately be the two decision makers here just to keep it as balanced and non-judgmental as possible.

Though kara, I do second the point that, while I can appreciate the emphasis of your colorful use of a versatile word (and it really is a very versatile one at that), let's take care that we don't lead the impression of backing somebody into a defensive corner. As you've stated (or at least, how I'm reading your statements regarding it), you are not intending to be as such, but that didn't come about until somebody else poked you over it and that it can be just as volatile a provocation as what you are holding up against Spoon. Given that this is a safeties context by which to let this all air out rather than fester as a later erupting abscess, I'm all for us getting this sorted sooner rather than later so I can empathize and understand the emphasis, but maybe make a mental note of how it can come about and maybe more directly intone your intention (as a disclaimer or something) in a more initial manner.

Other than that, I do see where you are coming from, but that awareness does extend both ways. For now, lets see what Spoon comes back with.

[karajorma]

I guess I'm more used to hearing the phrase "I hope to ****...." then. 

@Battuta, I'm simply making the point that if you are capable of asking for help and you don't, you can't then complain that help isn't given.

[Luis Dias]

I find this thread disturbing.

Like Karajorma, I might be biased or reading things wrong, but from my point of view I see Spoon making a humurous almost "captain obvious" reference, and immediately being thrown **** at him for doing so, being called a "dick" in a response and in the very title of the split thread. Kara realises this is not "the best way to handle things"... well talk about euphemisms. If you are playing moderator and trying to make someone else behave in a less "dickish" manner, why not do so without infringing the very same rules you are tasked to uphold? Or is throwing insults kosher?

I also see Kara making a defense of Scotty on this issue by mostly arguing in a Tu Quoque manner, but I'm sorry to say that moderators *do* have more responsibilities to maintain a dignified presence on the board, if not always (we are all human beings!) at least in the very moments they are moderating... I also see an emotional rant against Spoon's unwillingness to admit his partial blame or whatever. His inquiries for understanding why was he "being a dick" (contrary to what Karajorma claimed, without scent or hint of any sarcastic tone), were not answered other than having the thread split. I see then Spoon handwaving it bemused, confused, followed by Scotty's sarcastic and insulting remark "Thank you for providing further evidence of being a dick in one handy quote-capable post.  Locking." Is this really the way HLP polices its members now, by repeatedly calling them dicks, interpret any demand for explanation as "sarcasm" followed by obviously the lack of any explanation, and then later demand them they confess their sins or whatever?

IMHO I did see Spoon's "captain obvious" reference as an inoffensive joke, bordering on unwarranted provocative. But I regard the whole reaction to it a lot worse. If this is how you convince Spoon to defer to moderators when he gets trouble in the WoD forums, well!

[karajorma]

As I've pointed out, I'm not defending Scotty calling him a dick. But if you really can't see that actions on Spoon's part could have prevented an escalation, then you're definitely reading the thread wrong.

[Luis Dias]

I'm not arguing against that. I'm not even saying Scotty is "the bad guy" here. Of course if we were all someone like Ghandi or Bhuda, these problems would never happen in the first place. People are people, and we are not perfect by any means whatsoever. For instance I was slightly dickish in this very page above and I recognize it. So shouldn't we, and especially moderators, be a little more tolerant of each other and not assume the worst in others? I mean, at least when moderating? If someone asks a mod why was what that person did "dickish" shouldn't such person get a response rather than a "your post shows you're a dick" reply? And when things escalate, should the long comment by the moderators basically demand of Spoon a confession for his dickishness?

IDK, just my two cents. Last thing I want is another escalation.

[karajorma]

Well that actually does bring up another point though. There are quite a few people who believe that "Stop acting like a dick" isn't an insult in the same way that "You are a dick" is. The argument goes that unlike a direct insult the former is simply a rather pithy method of saying that someone's behaviour is poor but the use of the word "acting" means that the person isn't displaying their actual personality and therefore isn't actually being called a dick.

I remember Goober defending the use of the phrase after NGTM-1R told someone to "Stop acting like an asshole." I happen to disagree and think that it's still rather insulting but I can easily see it being the case that Scotty is in the other camp.

If someone asks a mod why was what that person did "dickish" shouldn't such person get a response rather than a "your post shows you're a dick" reply?

While he didn't get one from Scotty, I will point that a response was the sum total of my contribution to the thread.

[Spoon]

I find this thread disturbing.

Like Karajorma, I might be biased or reading things wrong, but from my point of view I see Spoon making a humurous almost "captain obvious" reference, and immediately being thrown **** at him for doing so, being called a "dick" in a response and in the very title of the split thread. Kara realises this is not "the best way to handle things"... well talk about euphemisms. If you are playing moderator and trying to make someone else behave in a less "dickish" manner, why not do so without infringing the very same rules you are tasked to uphold? Or is throwing insults kosher?

I also see Kara making a defense of Scotty on this issue by mostly arguing in a Tu Quoque manner, but I'm sorry to say that moderators *do* have more responsibilities to maintain a dignified presence on the board, if not always (we are all human beings!) at least in the very moments they are moderating... I also see an emotional rant against Spoon's unwillingness to admit his partial blame or whatever. His inquiries for understanding why was he "being a dick" (contrary to what Karajorma claimed, without scent or hint of any sarcastic tone), were not answered other than having the thread split. I see then Spoon handwaving it bemused, confused, followed by Scotty's sarcastic and insulting remark "Thank you for providing further evidence of being a dick in one handy quote-capable post.  Locking." Is this really the way HLP polices its members now, by repeatedly calling them dicks, interpret any demand for explanation as "sarcasm" followed by obviously the lack of any explanation, and then later demand them they confess their sins or whatever?

IMHO I did see Spoon's "captain obvious" reference as an inoffensive joke, bordering on unwarranted provocative. But I regard the whole reaction to it a lot worse. If this is how you convince Spoon to defer to moderators when he gets trouble in the WoD forums, well!

Yeah this sums up my view pretty nicely too.

In the case of the WoD forum issues, we've repeatedly stated that you made that problem worse by not using the report button. I've never seen any indication you accept that either. I've never seen any sign that you don't believe the problem was 100% the moderators fault (and I'm not saying the moderators weren't at fault, just that you made the issue worse).

I've mostly been the one complaining that help never reached Spoon. I think it's very problematic to blame him for 'allowing things to get bad'. People came into his forum and attacked him. He was a solo project lead fairly new to the forums. HLP policy at the time more or less minimized the role of the report function and people got yelled at for using it. When other projects faced directed hostility they often had admins directly attached to deal with the problems right away, so there was really no example case for Spoon to follow. The institutional resources required for him to know what to do were pretty much absent.

I think the responsibility needs to remain firmly on the attackers here.

I wasn't really planning on hooking in on the old WoD forum moderating thing since as far as I'm concerned its water under the bridge with a formal apology and what not. But since Karajorma wants me to ACCEPT BLAME FOR EVERYTHING... 

What Battuta says is pretty much true, add to that that back in the day I was honestly convinced the admins and moderator staff was involved and was aware of things going on. It took me a long while to come to terms that the admins and moderators were not involved and that most of them weren't going to play my release or check the board at all. Hindsight 20/20 etc and yes, looking back I should have hit that report button on occasions. But that simply never occured to me at the time, after all I was talking on irc with people about what was happening and what not, then surely the staff must be aware as well.... right? Or so I thought back then.
What I will take responsbility for on this subject that I was pretty new to how HLP worked/works and my ignorance sure bit me in the ass back then. 

And I hope to **** that you finally get that I don't have any particular grudge against you and realise that if you're willing to forget about any previous issues you've had with me, I'm happy to do likewise.

Uuugh
You don't ****ING realize that you've said this previously and that I already told you back then that I don't believe you because you always act like a big jerk when it comes to me. I never see anything reasonable coming from you when you are engaged with me. Again and again and again its incidents like this that cement that you always make sure to read every post I make in the worse possible way, assume the worse possible intentions and you always try to push most of the blame on me.
I don't even feel like making an attempt at replying to your other posts because it will just make me expend a lot of unnecessary energy and emotional energy that I want to spend otherwise. Glancing over them, it seems to be a lot of ACCEPT THAT YOUR AT FAULT type of posts I've grown so acustomed to seeing from you. Not worth it.

[Luis Dias]

Well that actually does bring up another point though. There are quite a few people who believe that "Stop acting like a dick" isn't an insult in the same way that "You are a dick" is. The argument goes that unlike a direct insult the former is simply a rather pithy method of saying that someone's behaviour is poor but the use of the word "acting" means that the person isn't displaying their actual personality and therefore isn't actually being called a dick.

I remember Goober defending the use of the phrase after NGTM-1R told someone to "Stop acting like an asshole." I happen to disagree and think that it's still rather insulting but I can easily see it being the case that Scotty is in the other camp.

This is just getting weird... Look, yes, one could make a lawyerish defense of Scotty's first post (which is something you yourself state you don't believe in), but just to confirm that your reading is (IMO) wrong here, let me just quote something from this very page of the thread (my emphasis):

Thank you for providing further evidence of being a dick in one handy quote-capable post.  Locking.

I fail to see how that defense can work there. I'm sorry to say but I have to agree with Spoon here. You seem to assume the worst of him, and proceed to make the whole discussion about how he's not apologizing to the moderators or the board ...

I don't see how this approach is anything useful, but then again who am I? I'll stop commenting here, I think I've trespassed the good will of the thread a bit anyway. I observe how amazing contributors to HLP you both are and I hope you get along better.

While he didn't get one from Scotty, I will point that a response was the sum total of my contribution to the thread.

I'll defer to your judgement.

[karajorma]

Is it really that hard for him to say "Perhaps I should have said to Scotty that I was just making a joke and if I unintentionally came off as insulting to Rev Posix, I'm sorry"?

I think I'll leave that as my last post on the issue. I very much doubt that this is going anywhere.

[General Battuta]

But it did just go somewhere. Spoon made it clear he'd been satisfied with the way the mods/admins concluded the whole problem with moderation on Wings of Dawn. It doesn't read to me like that information was clear on both sides before.

[karajorma]

So now we have to wait years for this one to be resolved too?

Like I said, I'm not the only person to have read Spoon's post as being unnecessarily hostile to Rev. Even Rev himself read it that way. And I flat out said I might be reading it the wrong way but I couldn't (and still can't) see any other way to read it. Unless he's somehow claiming that his original question was stupidly obvious and didn't require a reply from Rev.

[General Battuta]

Those are two separate issues. I don't think it's fair to imply that these things take years to sort out. In the case of the forum moderation problem all it apparently took was one apology from both sides - precisely the opposite of years.

[Scotty]

Unfortunately, Battuta, I don't particularly see it necessary to apologize for this one.  Unless my understanding of this most particular conversation is entirely off, we're no longer discussing the moderation action in this particular thread, but rather the sum behavior of both sides when it comes to moderation.  More specifically and importantly, it has once again transformed into "Spoon vs. Karajorma Redux".  The significance of pointing that particular subtle change of topic is that it has nothing to do with the initial issue.  Kara was never involved in the initial moderation actions, and when he did arrive to put his two cents in, it was hardly a unilateral condemnation of Spoon.

I wasn't even a mod when the whole WoD thing exploded, nor do I have a significant history with Spoon (positive or negative).  The moderation response was to Spoon acting rudely to another member of HLP in a thread that did not warrant such response, and otherwise contributed nothing to the discussion at hand.  While worded perhaps a bit harshly, no official warning was given, and there was effectively zero formal moderation applied to the situation.  I stepped in and tried to address the issue succinctly.  It failed.  It did not, however, fail because of any inherent moderation problems toward Spoon as a member.

As far as I'm concerned, Spoon was at fault for the issue.  His past troubles with moderation do not excuse that.  Nor do I think this should be a particularly big deal at all, considering that the primary antagonism displayed in this thread stems from the aforementioned "Spoon vs. Kara" in which Kara is taking significant flak for doing nothing but supporting the actions of a separate moderator fully two weeks after the fact.

[General Battuta]

I didn't ask for an apology. I'm pointing out that these issues can be resolved pretty rapidly when the involved parties are willing to offer an olive branch without two grenades and a page of fine print attached.

[Spoon]

Is it really that hard for him to say "Perhaps I should have said to Scotty that I was just making a joke and if I unintentionally came off as insulting to Rev Posix, I'm sorry"?

I think I'll leave that as my last post on the issue. I very much doubt that this is going anywhere.

It's not going anywhere because you just wanna 'win' this argument. I don't see you or Scotty apologizing for calling me a dick and refusing to explain when asked to, where I was being 'a dick'. And maybe admitting that this is not the way you should go about moderating. Yet you want me to do a one sided apology!

I wasn't the one that escalated it, Rev_posix decided not to reply and it would have been over with just that. Yet Scotty felt it neccesary to jump to his defend in a completely overdone and unnecessary way. You continue to defend this and just want me to accept the blame. In the other thread you complain how people are so hostile to the moderator team and how its 'us vs them'. Well, if you look at threads like these, is it really so hard to imagine why there might be a 'us vs them' mentallity when you are activately creating it?

Unfortunately, Battuta, I don't particularly see it necessary to apologize for this one.

Well neither do I.

As far as I'm concerned, Spoon was at fault for the issue.

As far as I am concerned, you were.

[karajorma]

But Spoon, I never called you a dick. And I flat out said that your comment to Rev appeared rude to me.

You say I read your posts in the worst way but you've just now shown you do exactly the same thing to me. Accusing me of saying things I definitely didn't say.

Oh and before you say I said it in the other thread, this post is the one that kicked off the trouble. And I 100% wasn't talking about you in it. I was actually referring to an issue from over a year ago involving someone else. you read it, assume it must be about you and launch into a tirade about this thread despite it not being what I was talking about. I give you a sarcastic answer (mainly because I'm posting from my phone and don't have time for a longer one) when I probably should have explained more clearly that I wasn't talking about you. You then launch into an insult filled rant basically saying that I'm lying and must be talking about you.

In many ways that thread is a mirror image of this one. There is an initial misunderstanding of a user's post and a not clear enough explanation of why it's a misunderstanding in the immediate reply to that misunderstanding. Cause although I did make it clear I wasn't talking about you, I could have done more to make it clear. A fact I rectified in the next post I made.

So I have just as much justification to say you read my posts in the worst way possible too. Because you've quite clearly leapt to an assumption which simply isn't true. I wasn't talking about you at all.

[General Battuta]

If we're discussing this particular incident, then I have to admit that my feeling here is that stepping into an ambiguous and possibly short-tempered situation to say 'You are a dick.' and locking the thread is not constructive moderation that shows members how they could've done better.

No ordinary member could make a post like that and have it be considered a useful contribution. Moderators are inherently expected to keep high standards.

e:

But Spoon, I never called you a dick. And I flat out said that your comment to Rev appeared rude to me.

This post is the one that kicked off the trouble. And I 100% wasn't talking about you in it. I was actually referring to an issue from over a year ago involving someone else. you read it, assumes it must be about you and launches into a tirade about this thread despite it not being what I was talking about. I give you a sarcastic answer (mainly because I'm posting from my phone and don't have time for a longer one) when I probably should have explained more clearly that I wasn't talking about you. You then launch into an insult filled rant basically saying that I'm lying and must be talking about you.

In many ways that thread is a mirror image of this one. There is an initial misunderstanding of a user's post and a not clear enough explanation of why it's a misunderstanding in the immediate reply to that misunderstanding. Cause although I did make it clear I wasn't talking about you, I could have done more to make it clear. A fact I rectified in the next post I made.

So I have just as much justification to say you read my posts in the worst way possible too. Because you've quite clearly leapt to an assumption which simply isn't true. I wasn't talking about you at all.

Far be it from me to play United Nations, I know how annoying it can be. But this is a super reasonable post and really good to see, and I hope it's taken in good faith.

[Spoon]

So I have just as much justification to say you read my posts in the worst way possible too. Because you've quite clearly leapt to an assumption which simply isn't true.

I will fully admit to that and you would be justified in saying that.

While I don't feel I have to apologize for the stuff in this thread, I will apologize for some of my posts in that other thread:

I apparantly assumed incorrectly that you were referring directly to me in that post and my resulting rant was... unwarranted and driven by my personal dislike of you. While it did look like in that post that you could have been talking about me, I shouldn't have called you a liar over it when you tried to make it clear that you weren't talking about me.
That was kind of ugly of me and for that I will say, Sorry Karajorma.

If we're discussing this particular incident, then I have to admit that my feeling here is that stepping into an ambiguous and possibly short-tempered situation to say 'You are a dick.' and locking the thread is not constructive moderation that shows members how they could've done better.

No ordinary member could make a post like that and have it be considered a useful contribution. Moderators are inherently expected to keep high standards.

Yeah exactly.