[Hades]

Yes. There are GTVA in system, that have to rely to logistic ships and captured stations to sustain themselves. They have done everything they could to minimize the bottleneck issue of the node, and this is made pretty clear in the fluff.

Besides, remember that GTVA is in system because they took control of the node even before the UEF started to react, and that they have fortified it ever since. We're talking about a situation here where the GTVA would have been pushed back to DS and the UEF would be holding the Sol end of the node, and would be the one fortifying it.

Except with a heavily battered military force, with the largest chunk of it on a defensive strategy, how would the UEF push the GTVA out anyway?

[Jellyfish]

Take out a destroyer and let the public outrage do the rest.

[MatthTheGeek]

The goal of the debate here is whether the UEF could hold the node if they were given the opportunity to control and fortify it, the GTVA having retreated to DS. If the UEF can't do that, then they have basically no single chance to survive.

[Snail]

Yeah but that scenario seems pretty unlikely to happen in the first place unless the GTVA actually withdraws for whatever reason (Shivan invasion or something).

[MatthTheGeek]

And since a Shivan incursion (or even a Vishnan one for what we know of) could happen any time, any place without warning, (this very fact being the sole reason the GTVA hasn't committed more forces in Sol, that the UEF isn't dead yet, and that we're having this very conversation), this isn't that unlikely.

[Snail]

Well hinging your main strategic initiative on the invasion of a xenocidal alien species isn't really a great idea.

[Scotty]

I don't think a node can sustain that many ships at a time.

This is the same node the Lucifer duelled two dozen fighters to the death coming through 50 years ago.  There is no canon cap for number of ships able to go through one node.  The 'bottleneck' refers to the logistics tail being unable to support more than five or so destroyers in the theater at any given time.  Hence, logistics ships.

[MatthTheGeek]

This isn't exactly the same node. We don't know for sure how well the Alliance portal has stabilized it.

But I do agree on the fact we have no canon numbers (official canon or BP canon) to confirm either ideas on that point. Still, I think that 4 Naras with Sanctus + Karuna + fighter escort is more than able to sustain the 60+ fighters NGTM-1R mentioned with minimal losses. Especially, again, given how little durable tev bombers are. So the UEF blockade idea still stands.

[-Sara-]

On the topic of the UEF holding the Sol note. Possible reasons for the GTVA not being able to hold the node on the Sol side:

* A sudden Shivan invasion in GTVA territory, as defenses are having a hard time, the Sol battlegroups are recalled.

* Vasudans interfere in political affairs and the GTVA is pressured into removing it's forces from Sol.

* The public image of the GTVA war effort changes, possibly through information of the wars nature leaking (source possibly sympathisers, perhaps Anita Lopez blowing the whistle), politics pressure the GTVA into a treaty.

* Vishans suddenly interfere and change the balance into the UEF's favour.

* A new weapon is employed, it proofs efficient against the GTVA, forcing the latter to retreat.

* A secret unannounced fleet, something wack like a Feyadeen owned fourth Solaris with significant escorts joins the UEF ranks and tops the balance, through a blitzkrieg. Essentially plausible deniability, denying the existence of another Solaris and fleet, by openly lying to the UEF media network while holding up the pretense of a 100% open information policy.

* While holding their lines, the UEF pressures the GTVA by actively destroying hard-needed resources. The GTVA ends the war and calls for a treaty to still try and get those needed resources: possibly by signing a treaty where officially the UEF is subjugated (to hold up the ruse of GTVA victory to it's citizens), but where unofficially and in reality, the UEF decides the terms of the treaty and stays autonomous in the Sol system.

[MatthTheGeek]

About the probability for the UEF to hold such an hypothetical blockade :

If we consider you can send as many ships as you want through the node, I don't know how well such a blockade would resist to a few raynors/titans with fighter complements sent at the same time, but we have Durgas and Vajradhara to sweep clean out of those, so I don't think the GTVA would take such a risk. The only failure possible in that kind of blockade would be if the desties had sprint drives to jump out as soon as exiting the node, before Naras and bombers finish the warship off.

Such is a valid concern, but that escaping ship wouldn't threaten the blockade itself after clearing the node, as long as there is an AWACS jamming beams up, so the destie would, again, be left in Sol without attending ships (since sprint jump drives are still too few and far between to equip a whole battlegroup with em) nor logistical support. We are back to the guerilla warfare I mentioned, just on a much bigger scale. Still better than an open-scale war for the UEF - they have the firepower to deal with a single, isolated and logistic-less destroyer with minimal losses.

[-Sara-]

About the probability for the UEF to hold such an hypothetical blockade :

If we consider you can send as many ships as you want through the node, I don't know how well such a blockade would resist to a few raynors/titans with fighter complements sent at the same time, but we have Durgas and Vajradhara to sweep clean out of those, so I don't think the GTVA would take such a risk. The only failure possible in that kind of blockade would be if the desties had sprint drives to jump out as soon as exiting the node, before Naras and bombers finish the warship off.

Such is a valid concern, but that escaping ship wouldn't threaten the blockade itself after clearing the node, as long as there is an AWACS jamming beams up, so the destie would, again, be left in Sol without attending ships (since sprint jump drives are still too few and far between to equip a whole battlegroup with em) nor logistical support. We are back to the guerilla warfare I mentioned, just on a much bigger scale. Still better than an open-scale war for the UEF - they have the firepower to deal with a single, isolated and logistic-less destroyer with minimal losses.

But you're forgetting the whole political picture here.

First, before I explain, while nodes are infinately long, they are also narrow. Ships have always shown in the freespace games to come out one at a time. A volley of artilery fire and perhaps defense platforms we may not have seen may easily take care of those destroyers.

For the political part, remember the GTVA also has to keep face to it's citizens. They can't sacrifice destroyers, there's no way you can hide their destruction of such a ship. Even if you can, family of those on board probably knew on what ship their loved ones served and were lost. Rumour'd spread. Also sacrificing defenses may lead to the Vasudans retreating from the Alliance. They'd make sure to guard their own systems if the GTVA opens up their ranks by drawing destroyers from other groups away from their respective sectors/systems. Sure they can send through a whole wing of destroyers but it'd have dire consequences. Losing the node is forced negotiations, unless the GTVA really loses it's already not so sane mind.

[NGTM-1R]

First, before I explain, while nodes are infinately long, they are also narrow. Ships have always shown in the freespace games to come out one at a time.

This is untrue. We have seen multiple cruiser-class ships emerge from a node at the same time in FS1, and a Levi and an Argos plus significant fighter escorts arrived at once during The King's Gambit.

[Jellyfish]

Different nodes, different tolerances.

[Scotty]

Baseless assertion.

[PsychoLandlord]

Not to mention, fighters have repeatedly been shown to be able to exit nodes in En Masse. Can't fit more than one Destroyer through at a time? Try 50 Nyx's with a supporting wave of bombers right behind them. All it takes is good strategy for the Tevs to bust any sort of blockade the UEF sets up.

[Jellyfish]

Baseless assertion.

Makes sense, though. No two things are the same in the universe, and since nodes are a natural occurance, neither are they.
Of course, Sol Gate and Knossos nodes may be an exception.

[Scotty]

Baseless assertion.

Makes sense, though. No two things are the same in the universe, and since nodes are a natural occurance, neither are they.
Of course, Sol Gate and Knossos nodes may be an exception.

Or, since there's NEVER been ANY indication of a limit or tolerance for any node, it's a baseless assertion.

[-Sara-]

First, before I explain, while nodes are infinately long, they are also narrow. Ships have always shown in the freespace games to come out one at a time.

This is untrue. We have seen multiple cruiser-class ships emerge from a node at the same time in FS1, and a Levi and an Argos plus significant fighter escorts arrived at once during The King's Gambit.

A cruiser is no destroyer, big size difference. There have been too many occasions where destroyers and almost equally large ships came out one after another, not to mention ships larger than a cruiser/convoy vessel took turns entering the jump node. I don't think it's assertion entirely.

[MatthTheGeek]

Not to mention, fighters have repeatedly been shown to be able to exit nodes in En Masse. Can't fit more than one Destroyer through at a time? Try 50 Nyx's with a supporting wave of bombers right behind them. All it takes is good strategy for the Tevs to bust any sort of blockade the UEF sets up.

Like I said, that kind of assault force would be easily dispatched with minimal losses by a defensive fire pocket comprised of Karunas, sanctus and supporting fighters around the Naras, not to mention the already considerable defences of the Naras themselves. Whatever good strategy the tev have, they still have to close 12k between the node and the Naras. They are out of treb/maxim range and easy pickings during that time.

[Dilmah G]

If you go all in with Nyx's covering bombers on SEAD and Strike missions on those Naras, you can force the fighters into combat with the gunship killers.

Assuming SEAD boys get their work done fast, you can strip the thing quite easily. Also, it would be unwise to have your blockade that far out, the way I see it. Giving them that much space would allow the fleet to warp in and then take positions to outflank the frigates.