[-Norbert-]

I also love the Dark Mirror.
I just wish the author would have read the Technomage Trilogy before writing it.
Since I love those three books, the differences are bothering me a little bit (though not as much as the way technomages are portraited in the Centauri Trilogy mind you).

It is kind of odd that there seemed to be no particular compulsion against targetting civilians during the civil war, which I always thought as odd, since, whilst I can understand the rule of 'Minbari do not kill Minbari' being overturned, altering the entire tactical mandate of the Warrior Caste would have been far more difficult, I would have thought.

The Minbari didn't shy away from killing civilians in the EMW. They just went about neutralizing the threats first and finish the helpless ones later. Once they ran out of soldiers they would have started in on the civilians. And in the eyes of the warrior caste everyone whos not a soldier/warrior is a civilian, regardless wether they are armed or not.
Besides in the EMW they were led by the Grey Council.
In the civil war Shakiri led alone. And thanks to Delenn and Neroon we all know he's a honorless, powerhungry coward.

I doubt that the Minbari would have ever stopped. Unless they got so tired of exterminating humanity that they left some shell of a species left. But I doubt humanity would have much in the way of society left, let alone any sort of space faring force. Except for whatever they managed to evacuate, assuming it wasn't hunted down and killed like all the other ships.

I guess the Vorlons might have interfered more directly if their manipulations failed. After all Kosh told Delenn "The Humans are the key".
And if not, it could still be an interesting story. Anyone know Titan A.E.?

[Kassad]

The Minbari didn't shy away from killing civilians in the EMW. They just went about neutralizing the threats first and finish the helpless ones later. Once they ran out of soldiers they would have started in on the civilians. And in the eyes of the warrior caste everyone whos not a soldier/warrior is a civilian, regardless wether they are armed or not.
Besides in the EMW they were led by the Grey Council.

As far I recall the Minbari didn't kill civilians (from the movie "In ¡the beginning")
Fontaine: They are moving methodically through the outer colonies, wiping out our defense structures and leaving colonies vulnerable. Civilian structures are being left alone for now.
But then say that the Minbari are going to destroy every defense structure all the way to earth, and then kill the remaning humans, although that was a theory

[-Norbert-]

"Civilian structures are being left alone for now".
Two things in the statement that I find interresting:
1) structures: Surely civilian ships tried to flee. If they were left alone, the general would habe mentioned it, and not only said structures.
For me that sounds like the minbari jump in, blast everything in orbit (no matter if military or civilian), make some quick strikes at the surface to take out military bases and move on to the next system.
2) for now: As I said, neutralize a potential threats and move on to the next one without wasting time with helpless civilians. Those can be dealt with at their leisure once the military is gone.

Wiping out the complete population of a whole planet takes time after all, even with the minbaris technology. And it leaves you open for attacks from behind, unless you guard your back, in which case the "pacification" takes even longer.

And in the Minbari Civil war they showed that they have little to no scuples to commit genocide if it is "justified" or "for the greater good".

You are right of course that it is a theory. Since the war never progressed to the point were the absolute truth would have been shown, speculating is all we can do (or ask JMS).
But from all the information we have about the war and the Minbari mindset, I think it's the most likely outcome that the Minbari would have wiped out Humanity, or at the very least destroyed Earth.
With the Minbari way of twisting words around "follow them to their homeplanet and kill them all" could be constructed as only killing those on that planet.

[karajorma]

In the Minbari civil war the Religious caste and Warrior caste were at war. Both barely paid any attention to the Worker Caste.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was how they acted during the war with Earth. Civilians were obviously human worker caste and ignored.

[starlord]

Don't forget that minburo is at work to scavenge the docs and scripts of the part 2 of his "tales of the janus" campaign. this campaign takes place during the earth minbari war and since the EW campaign stayed at the demo stage it might be interesting to see it completed for it to feel a few gaps. might someone be interested to get those docs?

Also, do we have the nova X battlecruiser implemented in TPB (that modified nova dreadnaught with x lasers instead of pulse cannons: It is my understanding that a few were made before the omega destroyer came in). The campaign needs that vessel it seems.

[LeGuille]

Okay, so from the summarization of it, had the minbari finished the job, would they have killed Earth alone and any opposing military caste? leaving the rest to be put in strict internment camps, or put into slavery / hunted down...

Or are we really going to assume that JMS would have alotted a species as intellectual as the minbari to completely wipe us out? I think the Vorlons would have intervened at one point...

Honestly, even if the minbari would have been completely vendetted to exterminate us, we would have found ways to hid among the galaxy and escape them as they hunted us.

Any species harboring us would be considered a threat to the minbari, too. I mean, they obviously have a serious superiority complex.

[Trivial Psychic]

...Read the Babylon 5 Parallel Universe at http://www.b5-dark-mirror.demon.co.uk/ for fantastic "What If"...
It was rather interesting to "see" all these familiar faces in completly different roles...Especially Ivanova... Cant say any more without giving spoilers
Maybe this could be made into a campaign...
Of course it would mean putting engines on the B5 and giving it more anti-cap and anti fighter weapons...
Actually, I pictured the EAS Babylon in this story being a cross between S3 Babylon 5 and Grand Inquisitor Dask's EAS Tillman Dreadnought (The EA Civil war upgrade of course), which can be found at http://efni.org

I too very much enjoyed the Dark Mirror, but I think you have the wrong impression of the EAS Babylon.  It wasn't a ship version of B5, rather a Nova class that's been upgraded, overhauled, and patched together over the years, eventually becoming something more like an Omega class, then a Shadow Omega (of sorts).

Spoiler:

Now, the story states a few things about the EMW that don't jive with the standard B5 universe (beyond the Battle-Of-The-Line incident), but since changes in the future also affect the past in both universes, I could possibly see how the Butterfly Effect might mean that these inconsistencies are accounted for.  The inconsistencies of which I speak, center around the EAS Babylon.  In the normal universe, it was the EAS Lexington, Hyperion class that Sheridan was serving aboard at the time of the Black Star incident, and he was the 1st officer, but in Dark Mirror, it was the Nova class EAS Babylon that Sheridan was aboard, and already serving as commanding officer.

[starlord]

precisely the nova X, no?

[-Norbert-]

Spoiler:

I just recently re-read the Dark Mirror and it never mentiones what ship he was on during the Black Star incident.
It was mentioned that he destroyed some Minbari war cruisers with the Babylon during the 10 years between the battle of the line and the main story (even though I'd like to know how, since in the first chapter they are testing out the Narn jammer and fusion bomb for the first time....), maybe that's were the mixup came from.

There was something said about the Babylon being a prototype of some sort before being modified (and patched up) beyond belonging to any class.

precisely the nova X, no?

That was my impression too, or at least something pretty close to it.

[Trivial Psychic]

Did you read the prologue?

[-Norbert-]

Well....
I did, but that was years ago. Since I already knew the situation I skipped the prologue when I re-read it.

The one moment of hope came when Captain John Sheridan of the EAS Babylon managed to destroy the Minbari flagship by trickery.

But I guess it wasn't so much a diversion form the official storyline but rather a mistake in formulating it.
If I wanted to say he destroyed the Black Star while on board the Babylon I'd put it as "Sheridan on the" or "Sheridan and his", but not "of the".

But if you want to be absolutely exact, then "In the Beginning" isn't canon either. Because in the first episode of season two Sheridan explains to Ivannova that he destoryed the Black Star and two other Minbari cruisers and  Sinclair said the Minbari never pulled a sneak attack.
In "In the Beginning" the Black Star does pull a sneak attack on the fleet Sheridan is in, and does so alone.

Edited out a quite grave mistake due to late-night-posting
Thanks Trivial Psychic.

[Trivial Psychic]

I think you're speaking of "In The Beginning", not "Into The Fire".  The later was the final battle against the Vorlons & Shadows at Coriana 6.  The episode where the Black Star incident was first mentioned was "Points of Departure" at the beginning of Season 1.  Sheridan also mentions in that conversation that he mined the asteroid field in Earth's solar system, which would have put that incident much closer to the end of the war than ITB indicated.  B5 has many inconsistencies, but what show of that type doesn't?

[LeGuille]

You could always play it off as this simple fact:

Sheridan was suddenly pulled into a new position. He may or not have stretched his truth, or shrunk the truth to try and set himself up. I don't think he believed he'd be permanently stationed there. That and information is often distorted in war-time. Sheridan may have told the truth while everyone else believes a floating heroic stand, even if it was sneaky.

I'd just chalk that all up as simple mis-information and Human error.

[terran_emperor]

Well, Ive always thought of the Black Star incident happening about 9 months to a year into the EM war.

As to the Asteroid belt, well i figure the Black Star was showing off by carrying out gutsy high profile behind-enemy-lines attacks...

Sorta like it was saying "I am attackingyou  deep in your terratory, and Im powerful enough to do so openly" if you know what i mean.

[-Norbert-]

That's a very good point.
It never really worked out for me that the Minbari would skip past Io and Mars, but still get ambushed in the asteroid field.
Even the EA doesn't have to fly all that way in realspace (at least not ships capable of opening their own jump-points) and the Minbari have even better jump drives.

[terran_emperor]

Another minor incosistancy - in "The Long Twilight Struggle" Franklin says the Minbari skipped Io, yet in "ITB" the President says that they "lost contact with Io and must conclude that they too have fallen"

My explanation for this: The Minbari set up a Rallying Point near Io, either in Normal Space or Hyperspace and jammed the colony's comms to prevent Pre-emptive strikes...

[-Norbert-]

Lost contact doesn't mean that Io was attacked. I also thought that prior to the attack the minbari started jamming the communications of earth.
Maybe the communication lines to Mars were good enough to get through the jammers?

[Flipside]

I suppose it depends where the Minbari are, I suspect Earth would have lost contact with Mars once the Minbari Fleet were inside its orbit.

[-Norbert-]

But is it possible to jam realspace out of hyperspace?

[FUBAR-BDHR]

Don't see why not.  They communicate from real space to hyperspace and back.  Also they can deploy sensors in hyperspace and pick them up in real space.