[Dragon]

You'll yet learn to fear the Diomedes in WiH2.

Actually, having one, two, or three weapons specified does nothing at all. Only the first specified weapon is used and it cycles through all the available firepoints.

I'm pretty sure that if you have 3 identical weapons in a turret, they'll fire in quick succession, similar to a swarm launch. I know they used to do that some time ago (3 TerSlashes on an Orion turret were often mentioned as a very cool looking example of this).

[Ryuseiken]

Yeah the only time we see a Diomedes survive is I think in Artemis Station, where it IS carving up the Cormorant, but it's doing so alongside Steele's battlegroup so it's not that impressive a feat.

[Kobrar44]

It is carving up everything everywhere it appears UNLESS it's stopped. Keep that in mind. Unexpeted Indus arrival or Eris reinforcements are the only things that somehow manage to neutralize it. Also, in the blade itself one diomedes survives.

[Droid803]

You'll yet learn to fear the Diomedes in WiH2.

Actually, having one, two, or three weapons specified does nothing at all. Only the first specified weapon is used and it cycles through all the available firepoints.

I'm pretty sure that if you have 3 identical weapons in a turret, they'll fire in quick succession, similar to a swarm launch. I know they used to do that some time ago (3 TerSlashes on an Orion turret were often mentioned as a very cool looking example of this).

Yeah, I know that tri-terslash thing, it was pretty awesome when I figured it out making my 2nd mission in FRED, fooling around with the weapons editor. I think that only happens with beams, as I've stared at regular ones without "use multiple guns" and didn't see anything different from a single mount. With "use multiple guns" it definitely fires all the weapons in quick succession similar to burst fire mode w/ random delay due to random turret refire delay.

Yeah the only time we see a Diomedes survive is I think in Artemis Station, where it IS carving up the Cormorant, but it's doing so alongside Steele's battlegroup so it's not that impressive a feat.

You manage to kill the Triteia (consistently) in TBI?
I know it's possible, but its hard.

[Ryuseiken]

I know it's a beast of a ship, I'm just saying that due to the narrative it's lost every encounter it was in. There was not an equivalent of a Serkr strike which showcases how deadly they are by having a Dio hull something without you being able to stop it. Plus, unlike all those Deimos' every Dio that showed up blew up shortly thereafter instead of jumping out.

Though I wasn't counting TBI since I'd forgotten about it.

[Hades]

Aesaar, I like the Bell, my only problem is how the hull at the front is roundish but the hull at the back is boxy, it doesn't really flow together right, you know what I mean?

I didn't like this on the Chimera either.

[Aesaar]

I know what you mean.  I don't really mind it, otherwise I wouldn't have built it this way, but I definitely know what you mean.

If you'd brought it up while I was on the Chimera, I'd have seriously considered doing something about it, but now, well...  The Bellerophon is the Chimera's big brother, sharing a clear design history, and as such, I don't want to make its appearance diverge to that degree without changing the Chimera too.  And I'm really sick of looking at the Chimera in Wings3d.  I'd say that Stratcomm's original Bellerophon also had a squarish back, but I haven't been shy about changing the original designs before, so that's a thin defense.  The best I can offer is that the Titan and Raynor won't do this.

I really, really hate dismissing valid criticism.

[SaltyWaffles]

Yeah the only time we see a Diomedes survive is I think in Artemis Station, where it IS carving up the Cormorant, but it's doing so alongside Steele's battlegroup so it's not that impressive a feat.

There's a Diomedes in that scene?

...

Okay, yeah. Not the best of impressions.

I thought those TerSlashBlue's were from the Atreus?

Either way, in that scene, the point is more along the lines of "Steele's battlegroup effortlessly swats aside a Karuna as it charges the de facto capital of Jupiter, with none of his ships even slowing down and most of them not even bothering to pay attention to it as it's skewered by a few auxiliary beams from a the Atreus and Imperieuse.

I'm not sure what seems more pointlessly suicidal---the Renjian's Leeroy Jeeeeeenkiiiiins into the 14th BG (even against a UEF equivalent, it would have been a quick and pointless suicide) or the Comorant's dashing (sideways?) charge into a state-of-the-art GTVA battlegroup in formation and in optimal firing position and range. Even for a desperate delaying action, did the Comorant's CO really think that any of Steele's ships would even have to slow down at all? At least the Nelson was trying straight for a ramming attack and had four Sanctus cruisers as a distraction...

Salty, try to set up a Diomedes versus a Karuna, with both ships in optimal position.

The Diomedes rips the Karuna to shreds in about a minute, and finishes with over 50% health.

Now try it with the Diomedes coming in under the Karuna, which can't bring its main guns to bear.

The Diomedes tears the Karuna a new in about a minute, again, except this time it finishes with over 80% health.

The Diomedes is a scary ship.  They just suffer from consistent bad luck (and being on the wrong side of the fight from the protagonist).

Okay, I'm a tad confused here---Aesar, a Diomedes has more anti-ship firepower than a Chimera?

Really?

Slash beams rarely do full damage, and it's a pretty narrow angle for a Diomedes to get all four of its slash beams even capable of firing on the same ship at all (at angles like this, they tend to be more inaccurate regardless).

A Chimera's 3 MBlue's do ~59,400 damage per salvo, which can fire once every 35 seconds. A TerSlashBlue has a refire time of 10 seconds. A Chimera has a much easier time of bringing maximum beam firepower to bear, as it just has to place the target vaguely forward of the ship.

And, of course, a Diomedes is larger than a Chimera by (IIRC) a big margin. And it's a newer design. And apparently significantly more expensive. Though come to think of it, a Chimera might actually be a better fit for eventually replacing the Deimos, as it has incredible AA capability, sufficiently flexible and quite powerful anti-ship firepower, and enough speed and durability to at least be on par with the Deimos. Though being smaller and cheaper, they're still kind of distinct in terms of role and usage.

Anyway: the Diomedes is a big ship, and seemingly expensive. I would hope that its collective firepower would be more than an average Chimera's, given that said firepower can rarely be brought to bear on the same target. The ship feels more like a pocket destroyer or a battlecruiser than a typical corvette, though it still has a puzzlingly small anti-ship armament for its size, era, and cost. 

[The E]

You keep calling the antiship armament "puzzlingly small", when it can be demonstrated that it isn't. The fact that slash beams are not as immediately effective as direct-fire beams is irrelevant when the ship in question can bring 2 or even all 4 to bear on a target.

The Diomedes is a very well-rounded vessel that can destroy all ships smaller or as large as itself, and pose a severe threat to larger vessels. Sure, it could be better, but that is true for every ship everywhere ever.

[MatthTheGeek]

I'm not sure what seems more pointlessly suicidal---the Renjian's Leeroy Jeeeeeenkiiiiins into the 14th BG (even against a UEF equivalent, it would have been a quick and pointless suicide) or the Comorant's dashing (sideways?) charge into a state-of-the-art GTVA battlegroup in formation and in optimal firing position and range.

Don't be ridiculous, the Cormorant didn't charge alone. It was already engaged for a while when the cutscene starts. There was at least a Sanctus with it, and probably more ships already reduced to scrap metal before you get to see it.

Okay, I'm a tad confused here---Aesar, a Diomedes has more anti-ship firepower than a Chimera?

Really?

Yes, really. You might want to have a look at my comments (the last ones) which lists the hard numbers.

Do not dismiss the TerSlashBlue simply because it's a slash beam. Contrary to standard TerSlashes and, even much worse, LTerSlashes, the TerSlashBlues have a slow enough slash speed that they consistently do 100% damage on a sweep, or very close to, especially on large targets.

[headdie]

The thing about Chimera/Bellerophon and the fact that they can bring massive fire power to a target easier but

Chimera has 566 * 3 = 1668 sustained fire-power all concentrated forward
Bellerophon has (556 * 2) + 1100 = 2212 sustained fire-power all concentrated forward
Diomedes has 538 * 4 = 2152 sustained fire-power distributed over multiple fire arcs

Chimera/Bellerophon both are easier to achieve their full fire potential but are scary vulnerable when not on the offensive while the Diomedes is better able to defend itself and engage multiple targets when on the offensive.  As for slasher type beams while they are a wild card in terms of damage have the advantage of a good chance of destroying multiple subsystems and weapons emplacements.

[Aesaar]

Okay, I'm a tad confused here---Aesar, a Diomedes has more anti-ship firepower than a Chimera?

Really?

Slash beams rarely do full damage, and it's a pretty narrow angle for a Diomedes to get all four of its slash beams even capable of firing on the same ship at all (at angles like this, they tend to be more inaccurate regardless).

A Chimera's 3 MBlue's do ~59,400 damage per salvo, which can fire once every 35 seconds. A TerSlashBlue has a refire time of 10 seconds. A Chimera has a much easier time of bringing maximum beam firepower to bear, as it just has to place the target vaguely forward of the ship.

And, of course, a Diomedes is larger than a Chimera by (IIRC) a big margin. And it's a newer design. And apparently significantly more expensive. Though come to think of it, a Chimera might actually be a better fit for eventually replacing the Deimos, as it has incredible AA capability, sufficiently flexible and quite powerful anti-ship firepower, and enough speed and durability to at least be on par with the Deimos. Though being smaller and cheaper, they're still kind of distinct in terms of role and usage.

Anyway: the Diomedes is a big ship, and seemingly expensive. I would hope that its collective firepower would be more than an average Chimera's, given that said firepower can rarely be brought to bear on the same target. The ship feels more like a pocket destroyer or a battlecruiser than a typical corvette, though it still has a puzzlingly small anti-ship armament for its size, era, and cost.

Sustained damage on an MBlue is 566.  The Chimera has 3.  Total sustained DPS is 1696.  Sustained damage from a TerSlashBlue is 538.   The Diomedes has 4.  Total sustained DPS is 2152 for a target above.  In what world is that not more firepower?

EDIT: The E and headdie beat me to it.

The Slashers on the Diomedes have a field of fire of 180 degrees.  The Chimera's beams have a field of fire of 60.  So not only does the Diomedes have more firepower, it can bring it to bear more easily.  Its beam cannons are also very well covered by point defense weapons, something which isn't really true of the Chimera or the Bellerophon.  This is in addition to its fighter bay.  The TerSlashBlue is also a good deal smaller than the MBlue.  Close to the SBlue in size.

Also, this is something you only really notice when you fly a Diomedes and then a Chimera: If you're moving towards an enemy, the Chimera's beams are really easy to hit, but you can't turn away because you need to point at the enemy to fire.  The Diomedes doesn't have this problem at all.


By the way, here are the numbers for the turn speeds: Chimera: 80.0, 82.0, 82.0, Diomedes: 48.0, 52.0, 42.0.

So not only does the Diomedes have better fields of fire for its beams, it can turn nearly twice as fast to bring them to bear.

While I'm at it, here's the Karuna: 100.0, 100.0, 80.0.

I've flown a Diomedes against a pair of Karunas and a Narayana and come out on top with ~20-15% health left, starting from 10km away, on insane with everyone running bp2-colonel AI.  Really, it's as simple as getting underneath.


Aaand we're back to tables again.

[LordPomposity]

I've flown a Diomedes against a pair of Karunas and a Narayana and come out on top with ~20% health left, starting from 10km away, on insane with everyone running bp2-colonel AI.  Really, it's as simple as getting underneath.

Player vs. AI isn't really a fair way of judging a ship's effectiveness, as the AI is too stupid to bring its own fire arcs to bear, let alone maneuver to stop you from doing the same.

EDIT: Also, insane difficulty grants a huge advantage to the Diomedes, as the difficulty setting affects the fire rate of point defenses, but not anti-ship weapons. The UEF ships are far more dependent on their torpedoes than the Diomedes is.

[MatthTheGeek]

Insane is also the only difficulty that doesn't give the player magical cheat buffs, so it is actually the most adapted for those kind of tests.

[Aesaar]

Player vs. AI isn't really a fair way of judging a ship's effectiveness, as the AI is too stupid to bring its own fire arcs to bear, let alone maneuver to stop you from doing the same.

EDIT: Also, insane difficulty grants a huge advantage to the Diomedes, as the difficulty setting affects the fire rate of point defenses, but not anti-ship weapons. The UEF ships are far more dependent on their torpedoes than the Diomedes is.

I was under the impression that Fury's AI got rid of difficulty-based rate of fire, which is why Standard Flak is so OP now.

I would prefer to run these tests with other people.

[Scotty]

Player-cheats are things like number of turrets that actually fire at you, damage reduction, and the like.

[MatthTheGeek]

I was under the impression that Fury's AI got rid of difficulty-based rate of fire, which is why Standard Flak is so OP now.

I would prefer to run these tests with other people.

No, it gave more control over said rates of fire and removed the fact that turrets with the same weapons fired awfully slower than fighters. Nothing prevents you to make all the values the same on all difficulties, but it is not what BP's AI does.


EDIT: btw,

The Diomedes is funny because it consistently suffers from the Worf Effect yet is still terrifying.  I'd really like to see one smacking a couple of Karunas around without getting destroyed in the process.

You are welcome to try out my coop version of Post Meridian, I'm sure you'd love it

[An4ximandros]

Quick, someone make a one shot mission a la blade itself and show us the ill fated defense of a station during the Jovian/Earth blitz owned by a Dio

I'm up for trying but it will take me some time.

[Hades]

I know what you mean.  I don't really mind it, otherwise I wouldn't have built it this way, but I definitely know what you mean.

If you'd brought it up while I was on the Chimera, I'd have seriously considered doing something about it, but now, well...  The Bellerophon is the Chimera's big brother, sharing a clear design history, and as such, I don't want to make its appearance diverge to that degree without changing the Chimera too.  And I'm really sick of looking at the Chimera in Wings3d.  I'd say that Stratcomm's original Bellerophon also had a squarish back, but I haven't been shy about changing the original designs before, so that's a thin defense.  The best I can offer is that the Titan and Raynor won't do this.

I really, really hate dismissing valid criticism.

I understand. I wasn't around when the Chimera was being made and only saw it after it had been finished, sadly.

[LordPomposity]

Insane is also the only difficulty that doesn't give the player magical cheat buffs, so it is actually the most adapted for those kind of tests.

Good point. AI vs. AI is the best way to do it, although there's a lot this doesn't take into account.

You manage to kill the Triteia (consistently) in TBI?
I know it's possible, but its hard.

If you allow the GTVA marines to capture the station, the Triteia will fight to the death trying to defend it.