Author Topic: Dishonored?  (Read 5488 times)

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Offline Mikes

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I actually don't think this is a logical error. A Dishonored or Witcher sequel should be able to succeed solely on the strength of its systems and narrative.

Then make a similar game with a great story and narrative, and make it a text-based adventure with no graphics at all. Then charge 50€ for it. That'll be a great test for your claim.

I've spent quite a bit more than 50 bucks on the original Witcher Books by Andrzej Sapkowksi. (The whole saga is already available in German)

Some of the best money I ever spent. Sapkowski is a true master of the genre and refreshingly different from "the usual" fantasy stuff.

That's all story, no graphics. ....  ;)


If I were to make a guess.... the mainstream "gamer" crowd that the industry panders to so strongly nowadays propably wouldn't buy a high quality text adventure...  however I would also guess that the average "mainstream gamer" doesn't buy many - if any - *books* either. lol. (With the possible exception of game related trash novels.)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 05:25:35 pm by Mikes »

 

Offline BloodEagle

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If that game weren't so damned pretty I would have quit playing weeks ago over all of the bugs.

You would have quit playing a game weeks ago that only came out last week?


Are you from the future?

Considering it released on the 28th of August, no.

 

Offline Dark RevenantX

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All games need graphics, gameplay, and narrative.  And a host of other things, depending on the game type.

You can stretch the definition (e.g. the narrative might be a tutorial or some kind of opening sequence that tells you what the game actually is, or at least some kind of flavor in the world or gameplay that tells you wtf is going on) but all three have to be there, even for text-based games.  All of those parts are important to a game and are more or less individually important depending on the type of game, but you cannot shirk any of them entirely.

If you were to make the graphics of a FPS extremely simple and barebones, the game would suffer for it unless the graphics design was deliberately abstract and minimalistic for competitive reasons (but you still must design it to be eye-catching and interesting, etc.)  Comparing an excellent first person shooter, in terms of gameplay, with graphical quality that is truly awful to a less exceptional, but still solid, first person shooter that looks gorgeous will net the following result: The prettier one is better, every time, because the poor graphics of the former game will detract too much from the experience.

Graphics isn't everything nor is it irrelevant.  It's just another, essential, part of the games we play.

  

Offline Scotty

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If that game weren't so damned pretty I would have quit playing weeks ago over all of the bugs.

You would have quit playing a game weeks ago that only came out last week?


Are you from the future?

Considering it released on the 28th of August, no.

You might want to revise your "release" date to the actual date, the 8th of October.

 

Offline BloodEagle

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If that game weren't so damned pretty I would have quit playing weeks ago over all of the bugs.

You would have quit playing a game weeks ago that only came out last week?


Are you from the future?

Considering it released on the 28th of August, no.

You might want to revise your "release" date to the actual date, the 8th of October.
Or you could re-read my post.

 

Offline Ace

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This whole conversation makes it painfully apparent that gamers today have a rather inflated sense of entitlement when it comes to games.

It's a product, we're consumers. It's not entitlement.
Ace
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Offline Killer Whale

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If you were to make the graphics of a FPS extremely simple and barebones, the game would suffer for it unless the graphics design was deliberately abstract and minimalistic for competitive reasons (but you still must design it to be eye-catching and interesting, etc.)  Comparing an excellent first person shooter, in terms of gameplay, with graphical quality that is truly awful to a less exceptional, but still solid, first person shooter that looks gorgeous will net the following result: The prettier one is better, every time, because the poor graphics of the former game will detract too much from the experience.
I have no idea whether I'm agreeing with you or not: Team Fortress 2 > CODMW3. (IMHO)

 

Offline General Battuta

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Neither of those games has exceptional graphics. Of course I don't think Dark Revenant is remotely correct, since Half-Life is always going to be more fun to play than Homefront.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Comparing an excellent first person shooter, in terms of gameplay, with graphical quality that is truly awful to a less exceptional, but still solid, first person shooter that looks gorgeous will net the following result: The prettier one is better, every time, because the poor graphics of the former game will detract too much from the experience.
And this, young padawan, is why you fail.
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Offline Scotty

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This whole conversation makes it painfully apparent that gamers today have a rather inflated sense of entitlement when it comes to games.

It's a product, we're consumers. It's not entitlement.

While it is a product, and we are consumers, the attitude is still there.  *****ing about graphics that aren't strictly as good as your hardware can handle when the rest of the game is a pretty solid effort sounds a hell of a lot like entitlement issues to me.  Gamers have come to expect standards that cannot be realistically met, and react negatively when they inevitably aren't.

 

Offline The E

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It has been said already, but it's worth reiterating. Game design is all about compromising between what you want to do, and what you can do. So the Dishonored team chose to cut corners in some places, while concentrating on others. For most people, this doesn't break immersion, but for others, it's a constant reminder that it's a game they're playing, not a world they're acting in.

The line between the two is highly subjective, of course. For newman, seeing a world that has gorgeous design but doesn't go all the way in making it real is this line. For Battuta, it's something he doesn't even notice. This does not mean one of those viewpoints is wrong.


Now, as to the subject of entitlement, let's not use that word. It's poisoned by pages upon pages of stupid debate about what gamers expect from a game versus what they actually got. In this instance, it seems to me that it's more of a matter of expectations, and people not willing to let go of what they thought the game would be like. The discussion about the new XCOM, for example, is currently being poisoned by people who expected to get exactly the same game as the original X-COM, but who were disappointed when they found out that not every little gameplay quirk the original had was ported over. It's similar here; people were expecting Graphics on par with the big leagues, but were disappointed when it turned out that the dev team apparently had other priorities.
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Offline Dragon

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For me, a good story is much more important than shiny graphics. Wing Commander 2 FTW. :)

 

Offline Dark RevenantX

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Half-Life's graphics are fine.  They're dated, but well-designed and skillfully-made.  Why would you use that as a counterexample?

Bad graphics, to me, are inexcusably bad graphics.  i.e. bad design, detracts from the game, looks "wrong", etc.


All I want from a game's visuals are something that is functional and aesthetically effective (from a purely abstract standpoint).  Anything above that bare minimum is a nice bonus.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 04:10:22 am by Dark RevenantX »

 
Someone mentioned TF2 earlier and it really illustrates the difference between technical graphical quality and aesthetic design: it's 5 years old and hasn't had any great graphical upgrades, but it still looks fantastic because the artists did a great job of designing the characters and the levels to evoke a particular era and genre, and to convey gameplay elements on a subconscious level. Visual style does matter, and a game is worse for not having it, but that's not the same as having lots of polygons and shaders.
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Offline newman

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Being a modeler and a texture artist myself, I do have my own perspective on this. As I tried to iterate many times, and failed for the most part, Dishonored is a good game. But I think they made some questionable choices when it comes to creating detailed models and textures. It's meshes remind me more of Mafia 1 (another excellent game) than of anything modern, and as I've said before, making it all look a bit more detailed wouldn't have taken that much more work. There is absolutely no reason why I should be counting sides to car's headlights when they can look more or less round in this day and age, and still work well with most hardware. That's not a sense of self-entitlement, it's a legitimate observation of someone who has first hand experience in creating game assets, has paid for the game and played it. I even recommended that Thief / DeusEx fans should definitely get it.

The game's art design is something else entirely and that I have absolutely no problem with - it's all gorgeous. I'd just loved to have seen it all in a bit higher definition, because the polycounts and resolutions are definitely on the lower end of the spectrum for modern games. Again, having it all a bit more spruced up wouldn't have made the game mechanics or game design any better, but it would help me immerse a bit better as I wouldn't keep running into objects I can work out their polycount from just by glancing at them :)

Most games can function with bad graphics, some even without them, but saying a game can work as a story alone with no graphics is, in my book, just as bad as saying the graphics alone make a good game and the story doesn't matter. If I want a story alone I go read a book. A game is a combination of the story, game mechanics, and graphics blended together so it all works. Some compromises are needed, but I don't buy that the developers didn't have the money to make 30-sided cylinders as opposed to 14-sided ones; that's just not how it works.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 08:44:21 am by newman »
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Offline Luis Dias

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There's always the issue of balancing frames per second against everything else you want inside the game. Everyone who is claiming that this game could have had more polygons are absolutely right, however we just simply do not know why certain 3d guidelines their team followed were the way they were, and there were probably performance concerns with them.

Most "AAA" games do with a lot more polygons, however they are always testing and retesting where they can cut polygons and what tricks can they do to increase performance, and where their cylinders should be 30 faces rather than 15. Sometimes, a very detailed object is necessary, sometimes a raw cube works just as well (due to distance, shaders, etc.). You have to spend a huge time just to iterate this process so you can guarantee 30 fps in the game, despite it looking so awesome and crisp.

So I speculate here that probably, just probably, they decided this was a thing they didn't want to waste *any* considerable amount of time, so they just streamlined everything to low-poly as a way to guarantee performance by fiat.

 
Dishonored is a incredible game and truly beautiful looking. I've been really been taking it slow and been trying to soak up the whole story and environments, it's most definitely a game I suggest to play slowly, exploring every little bit, preferrably in Stealth, then after finishing the game pick a totally different way of playing it.

I love how silly things can occur too though, like in this video (warning, spoilers!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc7ByJP520I&feature=plcp

Might film more instances too, I don't usually have fraps turned on, even though I really ought to.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 08:04:08 pm by JCDNWarrior »
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Offline Polpolion

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:bump:

Just got this game the other day. So far it's pretty great and definitely reeks of Deus Ex and System Shock 2 in terms of FPS/RPG hybridness. I'm barely a mission in and so far the story seems a little funny but like it's been said atmosphere makes up for that. Overall, what did you guys think of the story given that you've probably actually played it already?

 

Offline General Battuta

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:bump:

Just got this game the other day. So far it's pretty great and definitely reeks of Deus Ex and System Shock 2 in terms of FPS/RPG hybridness. I'm barely a mission in and so far the story seems a little funny but like it's been said atmosphere makes up for that. Overall, what did you guys think of the story given that you've probably actually played it already?

Functional enough. It changes a bit depending on you behavior (primarily how much chaos you cause). I wouldn't call it anything hugely excellent but it gets the job done and enables the gameplay well.

I really recommend taking this game slow and going for a low/no kills run the first time through.