Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 19, 2008, 09:42:19 am
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Many months ago, when I was still stuck to a PC that had FRED2 on it, I tried to create a different version of Their Finest Hour because I was dissatisfied with the way it died, and I came up with some interesting conclusions, including the fact that if the Sathanas' rear LRed was blown, most warships can attack from the stern and win. On one occasion, the Colossus also died in a strange manner; instead of being beamed to death, it actually survived the barrage, but blew up anyway because it had no fighter cover. Canon dictates that the Colossus was beamed to death by the Sathanas while sitting still like a duck, and that will probably remain unchanged, but I'm going to ask this anyway: What sort of ending do you think the Colossus should have?
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I think the Colossus has to be destroyed (at least story-wise) to make the Sathanas look that much more dangerous. However, I think it was definitely an error on :v:'s part to have it be destroyed in such an anticlimactic way. So i voted for being blown up by the Sathanas while fighting. Maybe they should have tried to ram the ship when they knew they had no hope (similar to the end of Star Trek Nemesis, but without surviving).
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*shrug* I think an interesting Idea would've been if [V] had had the collie win, but then get rammed by kamikaze bombers (odd tactic for the shivans, but meh. *insert lame ass excuse here about how if a certain number of saths went boom they couldn't make the star go nova)
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Well, I realized something...
Wouldn't the Colossus have been more of a help to the Bastion if it simply just jumped out and escorted it to the node? I mean, yeah, sure, you can sit there and stop Sathanas #17 for a few seconds, but it seems like the Colossus' captain didn't realize the other Sathanas juggernauts could have simply splashed the Bastion if they wanted to, regardless.
By escorting the Bastion, at least it prevents any odd Ravana from munching it.
However, the story needed the Colossus to die, so I voted that it goes down with a fight. You've got beam cannons. USE THEM!
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I think the fear was that if the Colossus escorted the Bastion it would draw a Sathanas into the situation.
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We destroyed one Sathanas, but I think it had to be proven at one point that when the Sathanas got to call the battle on its own terms the Collossus stood no chance whatsoever.
I would have liked it if the Collossus had started to look like it was going to put up a huge fight, and then gotten smacked down before it could so much as move. Brutal, I know.
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It would be nice to have the Colossus for the post-Capella campaigns.
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I edited my mission to have the Colossus fight.
Much more enjoyable when it gives the Sathanas a bloody nose. Well, actually it gave it more than a bloody nose since I gave the Collie the overcharged beams so the Sathanas was left will almost 20% hull. Priceless.
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it should have rammed that damn sathanas! just like admiral koth tryed to bring the Colossus itself down... it's just seems to be the natural way of facing invincible enemies to the terrans jajaj
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it should have rammed that damn sathanas!
"Well, crap."
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The result of this vote is becoming very clear already - I also think the Collie should have taken on those Shivans. Ramming the Sath with all beams overcharging, thus taking the Sath with it would have been a much more heroic end IMO.
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The GTVA made a massive error in building it in the first place. Why dedicate over 20 years to build one superdestroyer when we were in peace time. Surely it would have been a better choice of both financial and physical resources to build more Hecates, or look into new Destroyer designs. They put all their eggs in one basket and it failed miserably.
Saying that, it would have been good to see it go in a blaze of glory...
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I dont now how much the Colossus was but im shure for that price they could made quit a few destroyer and Corvettes. I thot the Colossus was a little underpower anyways
i do agree it should went down with more of a fight then just siting there getting beam to death
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Well, the Colossus singlehandedly ended the NTF Rebellion without taking any significant losses itself. With multiple destroyers and warships, you'd still be taking severe losses as things went along. Also, the crew could defect and you'd be left with split forces. So it's not a universally better deal - there are political consequences as well as strategic ones.
Even though the GTVA would've been better off with multiple maneuverable ships to face the Sathanas, all of the ships that the GTVA knew of in the Shivan fleet were destroyer-sized or smaller. Against the Lucifer and a Demon and supporting ships, it would've been much more effective.
Additionally the Colossus only had 30,000 crew onboard. A Hecate requires 10,000 crew. The manpower required to build a fleet to equal the Colossus would be much greater than the manpower required for the Colossus itself.
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Well, the Colossus singlehandedly ended the NTF Rebellion without taking any significant losses itself. With multiple destroyers and warships, you'd still be taking severe losses as things went along. Also, the crew could defect and you'd be left with split forces. So it's not a universally better deal - there are political consequences as well as strategic ones.
Thie things is, though, that although we do know that the Colossus took down many NTF warships on its own, I've never actually seen it destroy that many warships. It destroyed the Repulse from the bow, so how would warships fare if they hit from the port or starboard sides? :confused:
Even though the GTVA would've been better off with multiple maneuverable ships to face the Sathanas, all of the ships that the GTVA knew of in the Shivan fleet were destroyer-sized or smaller. Against the Lucifer and a Demon and supporting ships, it would've been much more effective.
Also note that the Colossus was specifically designed to survive multiple hits from the Lucifer's main guns. This is probably why Commander Habu stated in Bearbaiting that "you must destroy two beam turrets to give the Colossus a fighting chance", and the only reason I can think of is that two BFReds do almost as much damage as the Shivan Super Lasers.
Additionally the Colossus only had 30,000 crew onboard. A Hecate requires 10,000 crew. The manpower required to build a fleet to equal the Colossus would be much greater than the manpower required for the Colossus itself.
The firepower of the Colossus is stated to be 500% more than an Orion, according to the cutscene. Rear-Admiral Koth had 10 000 officers and crew on the Repulse, which is an Orion-class destroyer, so if you do the math, you can either have 30 000 manning the GTVA Colossus, or 50 000 people manning 5 Orions, each with a crew of 10 000.
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I would rather have more smaller maneuverable ships then have one big slow ship. most of the Sathanas firepower is in the front. so if you attack it from the rear it would be harder for it to turn around since its slower and since you ship are more maneuverable you can stay in the rear will attacking to with all your beams.
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Even though the GTVA would've been better off with multiple maneuverable ships to face the Sathanas, all of the ships that the GTVA knew of in the Shivan fleet were destroyer-sized or smaller. Against the Lucifer and a Demon and supporting ships, it would've been much more effective.
Also note that the Colossus was specifically designed to survive multiple hits from the Lucifer's main guns. This is probably why Commander Habu stated in Bearbaiting that "you must destroy two beam turrets to give the Colossus a fighting chance", and the only reason I can think of is that two BFReds do almost as much damage as the Shivan Super Lasers.
The damage of an SSL is closer to a LRed.
Two BFReds are on the Nyarlathotep, but that's a different case altogether. Two BFReds do immensely more damage than two SSLs.
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I voted that it was fine the way it was.
Some heroic last-ditch attempt is too cliche . . . ram the Sathanas! bah.
Everything about that mission was pathetic. Pathetic fleet, fighter cover (Colossus damaged), etcetera. Or heck, trying to cause hell and all you're doing is hunting some useless freighters?? Having the Colossus die pitifully was fitting given the story.
This is the way the world ends, not with a bang, but a whimper.
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Actually, Alakabeth, it did end with a bang...the bang of a disabled Colossus. :mad:
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The Colossus virtually represents the entire GTVA, and it should have died fighting the Sathanas as every other GTVA ship would to the Shivans.
It's not the success of it, but the meaning of the act itself is what I think.
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Actually, Alakabeth, it did end with a bang...the bang of a disabled Colossus. :mad:
The Colossus' defining moment wasn't when it died. It was when it chose to stay and hold the line in that mission. I believe there's a point when the Colossus is told to withdraw but the Captain says no. It's fate was sealed then, the only thing to come was the inevitable.
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"We'll hold them back here. Just get the Bastion through! And fix that damned repair-subsystem SEXP!"
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:lol:
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Command, please execute the following SEXP:
when
+hits-left
<
--Colossuss
--10%
+set-subsystem-strength
- hull
-100
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Or, alternatively:
when
-true
-ship-guardian-threshold
--Colossus
--100
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I'd have the Colly blow up from beam heat sink failure. Or blown-up from a sole NTF operative.
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It was within range when the Sath emerged, surely. It should have at least fired back. As for how it was disabled and Command didn't notice...
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The thing is that the mission brief stated very clearly that only the Colossus' fighterbay was disabled.
I'm guessing that :v: didn't have the time to do a proper battle sequence.
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I'd've had the Collossus fight the second sath disabled, have a huge fighter engagement between the two ships, have the Collossus win, very damaged, go mental with celebration, and then get attacked and instantly destroyed by three Sathannases that warp in.
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Command, please execute the following SEXP:
when
+hits-left
<
--Colossus
--10%
+set-subsystem-strength
- hull
-100
Actually, that would be an excellent example of trying to chew through multiple layers of hull. :yes:
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I'm guessing that :v: didn't have the time to do a proper battle sequence.
Actually they did.
This one seems to come up every time the death of the Colossus is discussed so I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet but the original version of Their Finest Hour featured a non-disabled Colossus. If you look at the mission in FRED you'll see that the Colossus has a whole intricate path it was meant to follow during that mission. One thing is fairly obvious though looking at the mission. At some point near the end of the dev cycle (probably after the completion of the voice acting) the mission was radically changed. The Colossus was disabled and the whole path it was meant to follow during the mission became unused.
I've never actually simply tried fixing the disabled engines and trying to reconstruct the mission as it was originally planned but I suspect the original plan for the Colossus was much more heroic than the one we actually saw.
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I wonder if the friendly cruisers and corvettes actually got to shoot back at the Shivan cruisers in the original version.
It always seemed kind of funny that command would tell Alpha 1 to "let the warships do their job" when the warships couldn't do their job.
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I'm not sure. I've personally seen the cruisers and corvette fire their beams before, but I don't know how to trigger it.
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It's triggered in the mission, the trouble is, it's triggered before the friendly "fleet" actually jumps in, so the trigger doesn't take. All that needs to be done to get it to work is change the timer from... I think 10 seconds... to around 30.
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This one seems to come up every time the death of the Colossus is discussed so I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet but the original version of Their Finest Hour featured a non-disabled Colossus. If you look at the mission in FRED you'll see that the Colossus has a whole intricate path it was meant to follow during that mission. One thing is fairly obvious though looking at the mission. At some point near the end of the dev cycle (probably after the completion of the voice acting) the mission was radically changed. The Colossus was disabled and the whole path it was meant to follow during the mission became unused.
I've never actually simply tried fixing the disabled engines and trying to reconstruct the mission as it was originally planned but I suspect the original plan for the Colossus was much more heroic than the one we actually saw.
I not only blame the time schedules, but also the HORRIBLE pivot point of hte Collie.
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Actually they did.
This one seems to come up every time the death of the Colossus is discussed so I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet but the original version of Their Finest Hour featured a non-disabled Colossus. If you look at the mission in FRED you'll see that the Colossus has a whole intricate path it was meant to follow during that mission. One thing is fairly obvious though looking at the mission. At some point near the end of the dev cycle (probably after the completion of the voice acting) the mission was radically changed. The Colossus was disabled and the whole path it was meant to follow during the mission became unused.
I've never actually simply tried fixing the disabled engines and trying to reconstruct the mission as it was originally planned but I suspect the original plan for the Colossus was much more heroic than the one we actually saw.
I know. Some guy called Kazan did a version of Their Finest Hour with the beams on all ships freed PROPERLY. He also un-disabled the Colossus so it actually did move around the waypoints and managed to score some hits on the Sathanas before kicking it.
If I'm not wrong, the other warships also joined in the fray too.
I not only blame the time schedules, but also the HORRIBLE pivot point of hte Collie.
I agree, actually. They put the pivot in the wrong place. In my remake, I originally wanted to add an Orion that would deploy escape pods to fly to the Colossus, but the juggernaut swung so quickly around the waypoint turns that it smoked all four of them, and it would've done the same to my wingmen if they weren't invulnerable. :mad:
This is why you cannot have a single mission where the Colossus parks itself above a jump node, then move to engage a warship.
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I know. Some guy called Kazan did a version of Their Finest Hour with the beams on all ships freed PROPERLY. He also un-disabled the Colossus so it actually did move around the waypoints and managed to score some hits on the Sathanas before kicking it.
Some guy called Kazan is actually pretty famous around here.
But that mission wasn't too great really. It was better than the original though.
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Oh, oops... :nervous:
I was thinking that if both warships moved around each other, it might make for an epic battle. The problem is that they are massive, so to make them move around a lot, the waypoints must be about 10 000m away from each other. This draws the mission way beyond ten minutes.
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I've never actually simply tried fixing the disabled engines and trying to reconstruct the mission as it was originally planned but I suspect the original plan for the Colossus was much more heroic than the one we actually saw.
(http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs7/i/2005/191/7/8/Bat_of_Capella_by_WMCoolmon.png)
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Pwnt.
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There are all sorts of win on WMC's DevArt site BTW.
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Ah yes, the classic Baseball Bat of DoomTM attatck.
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I originally wanted to add an Orion that would deploy escape pods to fly to the Colossus, but the juggernaut swung so quickly around the waypoint turns that it smoked all four of them,
*crunch*
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Wouldn't it be more like smack?
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There are all sorts of win on WMC's DevArt site BTW.
/me feels warm and fuzzy inside
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IMO, the Colossus should have said it's heroic phrase, set all systems to overload and just charge into the Sathanas.
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On my first play through I found absolutely nothing wrong with the mission. In fact it was my favorite mission of the whole campaign at the time. Erinyes with Maxim/Kayser combo against a fleet of evil cruisers. Win!
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Yeah.
I liked the fact that the Colossus, the GTVA's enormous phallic symbol of overweening arrogance, sputtered out miserably. Not to say that I hate the Colossus, but it's nothing in the face of the Shivans.
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Not even fireing ONCE on the Sath?
You can't tell me that is not wrong.
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Oh, no, I agree, it should definitely go down shooting. Give it at least that measure of dignity.
Funny thing is, sometimes I do see it fire...why would that be? Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.
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I see it fire all the time...?
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I think it's the distance...The Sath is right out of beam cannon range.
the only thing one need to do is move the Sath a bit closer to the Colossuss and it will open up with all of it's weapons.
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The Colossus' beam range is 4000 meters I think.
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The Colossus' beam range is 4000 meters I think.
I thought it was 8000 meters... :nervous:
...but TrashMan's right. The Sathanas jumps in and stops just out of beam range so it can bombard the Colossus with impunity. When you think of it, that's kind of like a retribution, because Sathanas 01 was forced to engage the Colossus in a rigged dogfight.
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I must be mistaken then, probably mixing my experiences of the Ravana vaping with the Sath killing.
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Sadly, I've saved the Colossus at least once, but it does nothing :P
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Sadly, I've saved the Colossus at least once, but it does nothing :P
With or without cheats?
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There are all sorts of win on WMC's DevArt site BTW.
/me feels warm and fuzzy inside
Looking at you Warpcore site, it looks like you have a Perseus fetish.
Hey, me too.
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hey, this got me thinking: why hasn't anybody redone the FS2 campaign so it goes the way we want it? (completely optimized, different ending, new missions to replace the ones that are just meh...)
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hey, this got me thinking: why hasn't anybody redone the FS2 campaign so it goes the way we want it? (completely optimized, different ending, new missions to replace the ones that are just meh...)
Someone could also rewrite the Bible. Granted, certain people (though not me) would be offended by such blasphemy.
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uhhhh..... so does that mea it's time for me to shut my trap again?
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Sadly, I've saved the Colossus at least once, but it does nothing :P
With or without cheats?
Without cheats, as I've never actually had either the desire (or for that matter known them well enough) to use them. Without bugs, however...that's probably a different subject, since the Sathanas actually gave me enough time to knock out all but one of its BFReds and be mostly done with another before it opened fire.
For that matter I've seen that Sath and the Colossus exchange fire. So, again, bugs.
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Someone could also rewrite the Bible. Granted, certain people (though not me) would be offended by such blasphemy.
Meh, here's my attempt:
Genesis Chapter 1:
Bruce Willis yelled as he charged toward the thirty four generic ass holes at the elevator. He took out his AK-47 and shot down all of them. As the elevator door opened Samuel Frakkin' Jackson popped up. He had a shotgun. He pumped it and then said, let's get it down, mother****er!"
They both got into the lift and it went down. The lift doors opened again, only to show a whole load of more generic ass holes. Bruce Willis ****ed all of them up with his machine gun while Samuel Frakkin' Jackson went around pumping them with his shotgun while calling them mother****ers.
Then some German guy calls them on a phone and he's like "Simon Says this building will EXPLODE!!!"
Bruce Willis at this point is like really tired and Samuel Jackson's black ass is clogged with sweat. And they were panting really hard. So they just look at each other for like 3 minutes, then start running. As they exit the building they jump just as the building explodes into a giant fireball.
Then Samuel Jackson's like "****, man ****" and Bruce Willis is like, "Jesus Christ," and they're both like "Yippe eye aee mother ****er" when all these police dudes come too late.
"Put your gun down and put your hands in the air!" Screamed some random police dude. Bruce Willis is pissed off at this point so he's like, aww, "**** you *****" and he shoots into the air. All the police guys turn into wusses and run away.
Then a Helicopter comes and the German guy is like "My big white ass is bigger than your big black ass" and he starts shooting at them with a mounted weapon. And Bruce Willis is like "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK" and Samuel Jackson is like "Holy ****, holy ****"
Then Bruce Willis shoots at a nearby powerline and the German guy's helicopter gets ****ed up and crashes. But there were some Japanese tourists on the ground where it landed who got killed and they're all on fire screaming but nobody cares and there's a happy ending.
Genesis Chapter 2:
Jackie Chan and Chris Tucker walk into a Chinese restaurant and there are a load of Chinese guys in the restaurant eating. And Jackie Chan says something in Chinese which nobody understands except for Chinese people and a waitress comes. Chris Tucker eyes her boobs and he gets slapped. Jackie Chan asks for Chinese tea and some Piking Duck and she says something in Chinese really fast.
Then it cuts to Chris Tucker who's sneaking around the upstairs part of the restaurant with his gun. And there are like three stupid-looking Chinese guys with guns and they're talking in Chinese. Then Chris Tucker goes up to them like he's drunk and says, "Yo. I'm looking for mah friend you seen him?"
And all the Chinese guys look at each other like he's an idiot and then they all punch him in the face. Chris Tucker stumbles backward and he takes out his gun but all the other Chinese people are already aiming at him. And he's like "Yo, yo, what's with all the disrespect man I own this town!"
Meanwhile Jackie Chan was still in the restaurant wrapping his Piking Duck in those pancake things and then he sees some random Chinese guy we noticed earlier in the movie. So he gets up and sneaks after him but he realizes his dong was being watched by a security camera and he's like "D'oh". But he moves on anyway and he's looking at the Chinese guy. Then the Chinese guy takes out his gun and tries to shoot at Jackie Chan.
Jackie Chan goes all kung fu on all the generic guys with his kung fu skills and he's like bam, bam, and they're like oof, augh, aeeeee!!!!! All the guys have guns but they're not shooting because they're idiots. Then Jackie Chan kicks all of their asses. Then the Chinese dude is like "I wirr kirr yuu wiff my gun" and Jackie Chan dodges all the bullets. Then Jackie Chan reaches for a gun but the Chinese dude starts wrestling with him. Then they start wrestling and Jackie Chan gets kicked in the face and drops the gun out the window.
Meanwhile, Chris Tucker was about to get shot but then a gun dropped out of the sky and fell next to him. So he grabbed it and shoot all the Chinese guys in the legs and then started beating them up.
Then Jackie Chan got thrown out the window by the Chinese dude. Then loads of cops come and the Chinese dude's like screwed but then it turns out he was being funded by Steve Ballmer and Steve Ballmer appears with his Chinese friends and a packet of money and he starts shooting at the police for some reason.
Then Jackie Chan is like street fighting with all the other Chinese dudes while Chris Tucker's trying to get a shot at Steve Ballmer.
Then he sees a sports car and he shoots the gas tank and Steve Ballmer gets blown up. Then all the other Chinese guys got killed by the FBI.
A few weeks later they're on a plane to go to Beijing to eat some REAL Piking duck and then they have that cool "Don't Stop Till You Get Enough" music playing!
Genesis Chapter 3
So batman is fighting some guys and the joker cuts some guys face while saying why so serious and batman beats him up and then some guy gets a machine gun pistol think and starts shooting at the van and the van is bullet proof so the joker gets and rpg and batman uses his batmobile to shield the van and the van gets shot at by the joker and the jokers fighting the batman and he's like on the floor and jokers like wonder why i got these scars why so serious why so serious why so SERIOUS and he cuts up batmans face but then the batman pushes him off the roof and the joker starts laughing but then batman uses an anti-aircraft machine gun and shoots the joker while he's falling so that he doesn't get the last laugh but then it turns out that the district attorney is also a bad guy and the batman goes over to the house where he is and hes like flipping a coin and batman takes out the machine gun again and threatens him but the district attorney whos actually called two face who is actually called arthur dent is like really cool and hes walking around in pyjamas and theres a depressed android and hes saying how hes depressed and hes like being emo and hes like wooooooooa and batmans like wtf is this im the goddamn batman and then arthur dent is like 42, ***** and he takes out a shotgun and shoots all the kids at the school and uses a flamethrower like in saving private ryan where there are loads of nazis and attack landing boats and the guys like contact in 30 seconds and then theres like loads of machine gun fire and then the sound goes away and everything goes in slow motion and this nazi guy gets his head melted off like in raiders of the lost ark where this french guy is working with the germans and the british guys are like working for the americans and the americans are working against the russians who are using machine guns to find the crystal skull from the mayans who are actually working for the aliens who are actually travelling between dimensions and suzumiya haruhis like if youre not an alien dont even bother talking to me and then everyone starts raping that random red haired girl who everyone likes and then the daleks come and theres a big war and batmans like im the goddamn batman and the vogons start saying poetry and all the nazis are like heil hitler and indiana jones whos real name is henry jones junior is like i dont have any catchphrases i suck bugger it all and suzumiya haruhi starts raping all the people and the daleks exterminate eveyrone with their laser guns and then stuff happens and the universe exploded.
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Snail... tell me you copy and pasted that, and didn't just sit down and write that out.
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I would but I'd be lying.
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I would but I'd be lying.
:blah:
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Soo...Snail, been electricuted much lately? Pumped up with a drug cocktail? Had a lobotomy?
I'm trying to figure out how that post came to be.
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Soo...Snail, been electricuted much lately? Pumped up with a drug cocktail? Had a lobotomy?
I'm trying to figure out how that post came to be.
:wtf:
My, you're rude.
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Snail, you are awesome.
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My, you're rude.
Pft...don't be such a stuckup. Live a little (by making fun on everyone).
C'mon...hit me with your best pun!
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Snails post wasn't drug induced...
it was just unprecedented... and lacked punctuation... and a certain amount of sentence structure.
Now someone please explain to me where raping readheads becomes involved in this.
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No...somebody tell me how we went off-topic. :p
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The thing about rewriting the bible.
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Ok, I write down something on-topic.
Just . . . wanted to know, why is the majority vote for the option . . .
Getting beamed to death by the SJ Sathanas while still attacking it and inflicting some damage? 23 (47.9%)
. . . selected involve about IIRC 20 000 people dying? Not like it changes anything - just curious. ;)
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Maybe it's because a lot of people accept that the GTVA Colossus was fated to die in that mission, but it should die trying to hold of the Sathanas, not sit there and be a sitting duck.
I chose the one below that, but as you can see, it's one of the least popular options... :D
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I'm all for the second option myself, and I'd fully support getting a tweaked version of the mission in the VPs to realize it. Like karajorma said, it's evident from the actual mission file that :v: initially wanted the Colossus to put up at least a token resistance to the Sathanas, and the dialogue between the ship and Command supports as much. Looking at it from a storyline standpoint, the end product of the mission merely has to be the Colossus falling to a Sathanas without destroying it in order to distract the Shivans from the Bastion; giving the Sathanas a few scratches in the process doesn't invalidate canon in any way.
(Also, those beam-locked cruisers? Yeeeah. Let's fix that.)
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I'd like to see it survive, but just as an alternate future sort of thing. Capella wouldn't seem like such a big deal if the Colossus had survived.
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I don't think that the GTVA, or even ANYONE would like to travel to the nebula where Capella is even if they could. A dense nebula with a neutron star or even worse, a black hole where the Capellan star was? :nervous:
Or I suppose it could be for an execution zone.
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Execution pods, engage subspace drive...
*emerges in nebula, accelerating at massive value. Somehow becomes 10000km long...*
Is anyone actually going to (should we?) fix that mission?
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IIRC, it's been done several times already. But it's not in the FS2 campaign, unless you put it in yourself. I think it has something to do with the 'maneuverability' of the Colossus.
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The edited mission with lightspeed's nebulae has all ships beam-freed, the Colossus moving and killing, and more Shivan fighters. The Sath's hull integrity can go down to 40% if I remember right.
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Got a link?
There was one time I tried to do a (second) complete remake from the ground up, but then I gave up. At that point where I gave up, the Colossus was supposed to destroy a Demon, then a Ravana, then the Sathanas. When the Sathanas jumps in, the Colossus starts moving along a waypoint, and as it does, the Memphis appears behind the Sathanas upside-down and beams it. Shivan fighter and bomber wings are deployed, while the rear LRed opens fire on the Memphis.
That mission was pretty messy at best, because on one occasion, both the Memphis and Colossus kicked it. At another time, the Memphis survived, and the Colossus survived the BFRed barrage, but blew up because it got its last 6% of hull destroyed by Nephilims. :wtf:
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It's somewhere around HLP, too lazy to check. I think it's in the FS Upgrade section though. That edited mission was awesome.
And I was trying myself to make a mission where the Colossus barely survives ( launches a fighter and bomber wing, both go after the forward beams trying to disarm them with stilletos, TAGs and helios torpedoes, while if TAGs hit the beams, the Colossus beams them ). At that time I was still pretty bad at FREDing, so failed miserably and decided to scrap the idea.
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Oh, hello, I still have Kazan's mission. Attaching here.
I'll probably upload it to my Cloud after this.
Upload done. Once the attachment below is gone, you can still get it from here (http://cid-78eece80a0658c61.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/FreeSpace%202/SM3-08-kazan.fs2).
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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Colossus = putting all your eggs in one basket. Was putting the colossus in capella supposed to be a morale booster for everybody during the evacuation?
It really does seem like too many eggs in one basket. It was one hell of a long term investment and the only ship of it's kind for the gtva. I'd rather at least try to make the juggernaut class a little more regular with say 4 of them built at least. The colossus destroyed and there was no fall back for it at all. I'd rather put my investment into super destroyers. Gtva doesn't have any of those.
The last thing is that the gtva is too slow. 20 years to build a juggernaut? This is greatly over exaggerated.
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Colossus = putting all your eggs in one basket. Was putting the colossus in capella supposed to be a morale booster for everybody during the evacuation?
You think the crew of the Colossus would want to sit in Deneb while the largest Shivan invasion ever seen is pouring into Capella? Where else was it going to be?
The last thing is that the gtva is too slow. 20 years to build a juggernaut? This is greatly over exaggerated.
One would assume that includes the design phase, which can take years in and of itself.
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Train the crew, get all the materials, get contractors, planning, designing, then building. It's a 6km long warship that can survive anti-matter explosions like they were nothing, has to support 30'000 people aboard it, and etc. It's a juggernaut- you need those 20 years, unlike for destroyers which can pop-up rather quickly.
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3 times the length = 3x3x3 the volume..at least.
Ergo, the Collie should take as much as 9-10 destroyers, if not more, at least for the prototype. If the GTVA ever decides to build more, I'd cut down the 20 years number by half, at least.
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Now, suppose that we decide to "build" a HTL Colossus, over a finished 3ds model. How long would that take? :wakka:
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Colossus = putting all your eggs in one basket. Was putting the colossus in capella supposed to be a morale booster for everybody during the evacuation?
It really does seem like too many eggs in one basket. It was one hell of a long term investment and the only ship of it's kind for the gtva. I'd rather at least try to make the juggernaut class a little more regular with say 4 of them built at least. The colossus destroyed and there was no fall back for it at all. I'd rather put my investment into super destroyers. Gtva doesn't have any of those.
The last thing is that the gtva is too slow. 20 years to build a juggernaut? This is greatly over exaggerated.
As stated above, the design phase can take awhile. According to wikipedia, construction of the next class of US aircraft carriers will take 8 years for the first ship, and three years for each ship after that. That's not including the R&D phase.
The SR-71 Blackbird took about 8 years to go from conception, through an intermediate model, to first flight (Again according to Wikipedia). That's just one fighter.
Add to that the development of beam cannons and flak guns, and it's possible that the Colossus design was revised midway to take those developments into account.
Regardless, the deployment of the Colossus into Capella was not as an act of aggression against the Shivans, but as a diversion. It's explicitly stated in the briefing. Command deployed the Colossus because it had destroyed a Shivan Juggernaught and was most likely to be perceived as a threat near the Shivan's supply lines. Even if the Shivans didn't need anything else from Gamma Draconis or beyond, the possibility of the Colossus actually entering the node and causing havoc would be a threat.
I have the feeling that Command and/or the Colossus expected that there was a good chance that the destroyer wouldn't survive, but since the GTVA wouldn't survive if 100 Sathanas juggernaughts got past the closed nodes, it wouldn't matter anyway. So it came down to the 30,000 lives on board the Colossus, or the hundreds of thousands of lives that could be saved by staging a mass evacuation as the Colossus conducted its decoy mission.
Sending a less powerful fleet of conventional ships would involve a comparable amount of personnel (10,000 per destroyer, several thousand per corvette), would make the evacuation fleet more vulnerable overall, and would not have the same reputation as the Colossus among the Shivans. A Ravana can eat a Hecate for breakfast, but feels the pwn when faced with a Collie.
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Also, was the Colossus project not meant to be publicized? If the construction of the Colossus was only meant to be known to a few people then the construction rate of course would be very slow. Not to mention testing, design and money matters.
I have the feeling that Command and/or the Colossus expected that there was a good chance that the destroyer wouldn't survive, but since the GTVA wouldn't survive if 100 Sathanas juggernaughts got past the closed nodes, it wouldn't matter anyway. So it came down to the 30,000 lives on board the Colossus, or the hundreds of thousands of lives that could be saved by staging a mass evacuation as the Colossus conducted its decoy mission.
I wonder why Command didn't pull out all the crew except for the necessary ones, if they believed that the Collossus was going to die. The Colossus was fought before-hand Alpha 1 came into the scene right?
Here's the final part: WHY is the Colossus equipped with Terran beams. TERRAN beams are pebbles compared to catapult boulders that are the Vasudan beams.
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Why is the Deimos equipped with Terran beams too? Its got a Vasudan Reactor. It should be able to handle Vasudan beams too...
Well, I guess that stupid Terran Pride thing got in the way?
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Perhaps it's because Vasudan beams require an updated, all-Vasudan warship to work properly. Equipping Typhons with beams makes them prone to system failure. On the other end, the Colossus and Deimos may have Vasudan reactors, but the supporting equipments (heat sinks, etc.) are probably Terran.
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Vasudan beams requiring all-Vasudan power grids? I'll buy that :)
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Why is the Deimos equipped with Terran beams too? Its got a Vasudan Reactor. It should be able to handle Vasudan beams too...
Well, I guess that stupid Terran Pride thing got in the way?
Oh God not that again.
As for the Colossus, I think BFGreen > BVas myself.
Besides, it's a freespace tradition. ANYTHING created jointly, is default Terran.
Ulysses.
Colossus.
Mjolnir.
hmmn, thought there was another one but doesn't come to mind.
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No wonder a Vasudan Alpha 3 was resentful that all credit to the Meson bomb warhead was towards the Terrans despite what Alpha 2 said otherwise.
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As for the Colossus, I think BFGreen > BVas myself.
The Colossus has neither. :p
There's only one mission where the Colossus has the BFGreen and it's positioned so it can't fire it.
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hmmn, thought there was another one but doesn't come to mind.
The Interceptor missile?
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There's only one mission where the Colossus has the BFGreen and it's positioned so it can't fire it.
Well it uses LRBGreens.
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Well it uses LRBGreens.
That explains why both juggernauts open fire on each other on High Noon at almost the same moment.
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Never noticed that...Probably because the Sathanas is no positions to fire anything by then...or because I use edited tables to give terran beams more whopass
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Never noticed that...Probably because the Sathanas is no positions to fire anything by then...or because I use edited tables to give terran beams more whopass
You mean like increasing their effective range to 20000m or something like that?
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Actually I made terran & vasudan beams more comparalbe to shivan ones, by tweaking both. Basicely, making shivan ones fire a tad slower and tweaking terran/vasudan ones (making them fire a tad faster, or fire for a bit longer, or extra range or damage...depends on the beam in question)
Shivan beams are still better, but not by a insane margin.
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Is there where the verb 'Trashmanized' comes from?
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Trash·man·ize
–verb (used with object) -ized, -iz·ing.
1. to make something better.
2. to treat (someone) with a verbal licking.
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3. To drag someone down to one's level and then beat him/her with experience.
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4. to perform a lobotomy on a hated individual
5. to go over something a dozen time until it's *perfect*
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Maybe you're scared of the Shivans and you can't bear their unutterable, alien superiority!
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Shivans have no innovation. They swarm and only get their way through brute force.
Probably in a death count, the ratio of Shivans to the GTVA is 5:1
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Shivans have no innovation. They swarm and only get their way through brute force.
Probably in a death count, the ratio of Shivans to the GTVA is 5:1
Not in FS1.
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Shivans have no innovation. They swarm and only get their way through brute force.
Probably in a death count, the ratio of Shivans to the GTVA is 5:1
Not in FS1.
Eh, that seems to be what people remember but I disagree on some counts. The Sathanas wasn't only about brute force, they were trying to capture and draw it out in the nebula. Instead it plastered a destroyer and then circumvented most of the forces. In FS1 the shivans are even more cunning, but then again it's a different sort of war. One was an invasion, one was a migration (arguably).
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Shivans have no innovation. They swarm and only get their way through brute force.
Probably in a death count, the ratio of Shivans to the GTVA is 5:1
Precisely how innovative and cunning are you in smashing an anthill? How many novel tactics do you employ?
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Precisely how innovative and cunning are you in smashing an anthill? How many novel tactics do you employ?
Heh heh . . . none . . . if you send in all your pawns to die for you . . . :p
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When I first played Their Finest Hour on Insane difficulty, I was genuinely shocked at how fast the Shivans reload their beams. Even the BFRed doesn't suffer the same reload time that the LRBGreen has.
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Probably in a death count, the ratio of Shivans to the GTVA is 5:1
In FreeSpace 1 the Shivans did all sorts of strategic and tactical maneuvers.
Examples:
The planned and well-executed ambush at the cargo depot in Pandora's Box.
Attacking the shield convoy with a massive force (But they were tricked; the first one was only a decoy)
Bringing in the Lucifer when things got ugly (after the Taranis was captured and the GTA/PVN got anti-shield weapons).
Using the Lucifer to attack difficult targets (Outpost Riviera, Tombaugh Station, Beta Aquilae Installation, the Galatea).
Using cargo containers rigged with explosives to make sure their technology wasn't captured again [Shell Game].
Using two fleets to attack Vasuda, forcing the Vasudans to split their forces. [Eva acted stupid in that mission but whatever]
Circumventing the Deneb-Vasuda blockade by using an uncharted Jump Node.
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In FS 2 they also had a sense of tactics:
-they tried to set up a supply dump when Alpha 1 first met the SC Rakshasa and the Knossos,
-they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front,
-they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front,
-they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front,
-they amushed 2 corvettes and a destroyer with the Ravana,
-they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front,
-they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front,
-they ambushed the Big 'C' with a Sathanas, killing it quicker than the Lucy was killing that Orion in FS 1,
-they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front,
-they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front,
-they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front,
-and they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front.
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In FS 2 they also had a sense of tactics:
-they tried to set up a supply dump when Alpha 1 first met the SC Rakshasa and the Knossos,
-they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front,
-they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front,
-they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front,
-they amushed 2 corvettes and a destroyer with the Ravana,
-they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front,
-they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front,
-they ambushed the Big 'C' with a Sathanas, killing it quicker than the Lucy was killing that Orion in FS 1,
-they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front,
-they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front,
-they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front,
-and they used the 'human wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won WW II on the Eastern Front.
You forgot the 'tank wave', tried and true Soviet tactic that won Kursk on the eastern front.
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I knew I missed something...
Alright, back to topic maybe?
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Probably in a death count, the ratio of Shivans to the GTVA is 5:1
In FreeSpace 1 the Shivans did all sorts of strategic and tactical maneuvers.
Examples:
The planned and well-executed ambush at the cargo depot in Pandora's Box.
Attacking the shield convoy with a massive force (But they were tricked; the first one was only a decoy)
Bringing in the Lucifer when things got ugly (after the Taranis was captured and the GTA/PVN got anti-shield weapons).
Using the Lucifer to attack difficult targets (Outpost Riviera, Tombaugh Station, Beta Aquilae Installation, the Galatea).
Using cargo containers rigged with explosives to make sure their technology wasn't captured again [Shell Game].
Using two fleets to attack Vasuda, forcing the Vasudans to split their forces. [Eva acted stupid in that mission but whatever]
Circumventing the Deneb-Vasuda blockade by using an uncharted Jump Node.
That the ambush was planned is totally unproveable. It is entirely possible it was conducted ad-hoc. (For that matter, you're assuming that they created a trap when they had no way of knowing anything would actually come to be trapped by it.)
The Shivans could well have been hitting anything that came out of that installation; indeed it's implied that they are. This would mean they didn't target the shield convoy specifically. (And more to the point, how the hell would they know which convoys to target for that purpose?)
The Lucifer was deployed before this. You mention it in the next line even. Just because it left no survivors... Also you're ascribing to them motives that they may not have had.
At the time Outpost Riviera was attacked, I doubt anything the GTA had would have qualified as a "difficult target" for the Shivans. You're again ascribing to them motives that they may not have had. (Indeed, almost certainly did not at the destruction of the Galatea and the attack on the Beta Aquilae Installation.)
Assuming the cargo wasn't volatile or the objective wasn't simply to sour the GTA/PVN on attempting another capture.
They were expected to use two fleets to attack Vasuda, centered on the Eva and the Lucifer respectively, hence two blockades. They did not in fact do so; they used one fleet, spearheaded by the Eva and Lucifer both.
This may not have been a concious effort to circumvent the blockade, but simply taking the shortest route or for other reasons. Once again, ascribing to them motives they may not have had.
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I can't remember; in FS1 the Shivans were more interested in capturing subspace jump nodes instead of complete dominance of a system?
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Hard to tell. I don't recall them acting much differently in FS2
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I can't remember; in FS1 the Shivans were more interested in capturing subspace jump nodes instead of complete dominance of a system?
According to the command briefings, the Shivans didn't seem to take any interest in controlling planets in a system (which makes me wonder if some of the colonies were able to ride out the invasion by just lying low and not venturing into space). Instead, they focused on controlling jump points and pushing the GTA/PVN back from them. This is a significant piece of evidence for people's theories that the Shivans are a space-based race who has some vested interest in controlling subspace.
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According to the command briefings, the Shivans didn't seem to take any interest in controlling planets in a system (which makes me wonder if some of the colonies were able to ride out the invasion by just lying low and not venturing into space). Instead, they focused on controlling jump points and pushing the GTA/PVN back from them. This is a significant piece of evidence for people's theories that the Shivans are a space-based race who has some vested interest in controlling subspace.
Well, makes sense though. Destroy everything in space, and control the subspace node to keep anything from attacking you from the rear. If the main objective is to "cut off" the head (ie Vasuda, Terra), why waste time on the small fries. You can mop 'em later.
I think their only interest in controlling subspace is security of their fleet from rear attack myself. And if they are for example a warrior race, comparable to the Zentraedi, they wouldn't need any planetary resources. Since their only goal is to take out the Terrans and Vasudans.
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Yeah. In one of the Ancient monologues in FS1 it's said that Shivans aren't a terrestrial species. It seems that controlling the jump points is one of their main objectives in defeating their enemies.
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Yeah. In one of the Ancient monologues in FS1 it's said that Shivans aren't a terrestrial species. It seems that controlling the jump points is one of their main objectives in defeating their enemies.
So that's why some people think that Shivans are actually native to subspace itself.
Yeah. In one of the Ancient monologues in FS1 it's said that Shivans aren't a terrestrial species. It seems that controlling the jump points is one of their main objectives in defeating their enemies.
They would always have to maintain a garrison in the a system because jump nodes always collapse and open. What a pity . . . :P
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Yeah. In one of the Ancient monologues in FS1 it's said that Shivans aren't a terrestrial species. It seems that controlling the jump points is one of their main objectives in defeating their enemies.
So that's why some people think that Shivans are actually native to subspace itself.
That's a bit of a leap in my opinion.
Controlling a node is like fortifying a bridge. Strategically it just makes sense.
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Er, back to the original topic...
I don't actually mind how the Colossus was destroyed. I am kind of confused as to why a diversion was actually necessary, given that the Shivans had a ridiculous number of ships at their disposal, and indeed probably would not have bothered dispatching any more ships to the Bastion had the Colossus not tried to hold their attention. Their Finest Hour felt like a callous swatting of a mildly annoying fly. A Sathanas was diverted from the Capella project, whatever it may have been, and dealt with the threat immediately, decisively, and easily. It was a slap in the face of allied pride. The Colossus, shining symbol of peace and cooperation, and of Terran-Vasudan might, was helpless in the face of the overwhelming Shivans. The Colossus represented the new feelings of hope that were beginning to surface after the devastation of the Great War. The Shivans utterly crushed it.
What would have made it actually heroic? Fixing the Colossus's engines, and actually giving it a choice in the matter might have been nice.
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Even if it didn't affect the Bastion, bringing even one Sathanas away from the Capella star may have bought enough time for all those refugees in the last mission to make it to the node. Had the Colossus not made that distraction the last mission could very well not have taken place.
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Even if it didn't affect the Bastion, bringing even one Sathanas away from the Capella star may have bought enough time for all those refugees in the last mission to make it to the node. Had the Colossus not made that distraction the last mission could very well not have taken place.
That's a good point.
Actually I've often heard the idea that, some Sathanases chose to stay behind so that others could leave but I don't think that's true. People have called the Sathanas at times a weapon to destroy stars, while the Lucifer is the planetary bombardment one. But I don't think that's true. When the nova goes off, those four Sathanas in frame don't intentionally stay behind. They're not still doing their green warp the sun thing. I think they're there because of one or two reasons:
1. Making the star go supernova was extremely dangerous. And no, not because "duh, yeah supernova bad" but because the operation itself was incredibly tasking on even the Sathanas and there was no guarentee it wouldn't shut down completely.
2. This fault may be in part due to the extreme age of the vessels, assuming that the Sathanas has been around for 1000s of years.
From the cutscene we see what, 10-11 Juggs? Of those, 3-4 stay behind. Let's assuming 80 Juggernauts, 7 out of 10 make it out. That's a guesstimate 24 Juggernauts that perished in the Super Nova. Not to mention all the non-Jugg forces in system.
Assuming some sort of special jump, that was a one way ticket to someplace REALLY important. I think it's safe to assume that the Shivans would wait for most if not all of the Juggernauts to be assembled before they tried to jump out. So diverting that Juggernaut to waste the Colossus probably did buy all the refugees and maybe even the Bastion a lot of time. But they bought time not from the shivans but from the shivan created supernova.
And the colossus had what, 30000 people? Lets for the sake of argument, assume that an equal number of Shivans are onboard a juggernaut. 24 Juggernauts gone means 720,000 Shivans died in Capella. Makes the GTVA losses seem like a drop in the bucket doesnt it?
EDIT - and as a point of interest, I don't think the final shot in that cutscene of a Deimos and a Moloch overlapping before their death was an accident. Bosch made some waves that's for sure. But that's another discussion.
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Well, it's been my opinion that the supernova was unintended, because:
a) losing that sort of force is something even the Shivans would probably prefer to avoid (baseless conjecture)
b) because they are depicted as masters of subspace and subspace technology, and given point a), that any sort of technology they possess would likely have been optimised and perfected to avoid Shivan casualties (a bit less conjecture)
c) given Petrarch's epilogue it is a high chance the Shivans were actually making a supernode (Petrarch at that point plays the role of narrator, not the role of a limited-view character, and people never lie in epilogues)
d) and lastly because a possible reason for a supernova accident can be provided. Nobody can forget that the GTVA managed to destroy one Sathanas juggernaut, which had been the first on-scene. It is my theory that without this last piece of the puzzle, the subspace ripples failed to work as intended, and created the supernova instead. (ha ha completely baseless)
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From the cutscene we see what, 10-11 Juggs? Of those, 3-4 stay behind. Let's assuming 80 Juggernauts, 7 out of 10 make it out. That's a guesstimate 24 Juggernauts that perished in the Super Nova. Not to mention all the non-Jugg forces in system.
And the colossus had what, 30000 people? Lets for the sake of argument, assume that an equal number of Shivans are onboard a juggernaut. 24 Juggernauts gone means 720,000 Shivans died in Capella. Makes the GTVA losses seem like a drop in the bucket doesnt it?
Unless the Shivans have an unbelievably high population, deaths of 720 000 Shivans would support the theory that the juggernauts were pathing a way to some unknown destination. The majority of the entire Shivan population could have been on those juggernauts.
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This is reminding me of the Hypergates in Freelancer, where the creators of the Nomads...I forgot how to spell their name...created a network of hypergates that connects the far ends of the universe via one incredibly fast method of travel.
Perhaps it's worth noting that, when the Shivan juggernauts jump out, the warp effect depicts a subspace jump, not a Knossos jump or any other kind of jump.
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Er, back to the original topic...
I don't actually mind how the Colossus was destroyed. I am kind of confused as to why a diversion was actually necessary, given that the Shivans had a ridiculous number of ships at their disposal, and indeed probably would not have bothered dispatching any more ships to the Bastion had the Colossus not tried to hold their attention. Their Finest Hour felt like a callous swatting of a mildly annoying fly. A Sathanas was diverted from the Capella project, whatever it may have been, and dealt with the threat immediately, decisively, and easily. It was a slap in the face of allied pride. The Colossus, shining symbol of peace and cooperation, and of Terran-Vasudan might, was helpless in the face of the overwhelming Shivans. The Colossus represented the new feelings of hope that were beginning to surface after the devastation of the Great War. The Shivans utterly crushed it.
What would have made it actually heroic? Fixing the Colossus's engines, and actually giving it a choice in the matter might have been nice.
Based on the indication by the escort, the Bastion hadn't been facing anything more terrifying than bombers. Pack in, say, a Lilith or two between the Bastion and the node, and you've got a recipe for mission failure.
But the Shivans didn't send a Lilith, or even a Moloch, and instead sent waves of bombers to be massacred by the enemy.
Again, a Ravana could've made short work of the refugee convoy, or even a Lilith with sufficient fighter screen if it started targeting civilian ships.
The lack of any heavy Shivan capital ships makes it seem very likely that the Colossus did draw their attention and flush out all the largest warships in the system, besides the Sathanas fleet. Though I do agree that it's possible that the Shivans never intended to put up a fight in the first place and simply intended to defend their juggernauts.
But nobody would have had any way of knowing that. Sending the Colossus in to guard the Shivans' node back to their home systems was designed to provoke a response. An inferior species using the ship that took down their emasculated juggernaut to threaten their home systems? It's the intergalactic equivalent of standing in front of the Shivans, flipping them off, fondling their girlfriend, and going "Nanner nanner nanner!"
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Perhpas the Shivans just wanted to avenge the destruction of SJ Sathanas 01 by doing the same to the GTVA Colossus. Both warships were destroyed in similar circumstances.
The Sathanas had its beam cannons destroyed by fighters before the Colossus killed it, while the Colossus was tenderised by a Ravana before getting beamed to death by another Sathanas from out of its firing range.
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Again, a Ravana could've made short work of the refugee convoy, or even a Lilith with sufficient fighter screen if it started targeting civilian ships.
The lack of any heavy Shivan capital ships makes it seem very likely that the Colossus did draw their attention and flush out all the largest warships in the system, besides the Sathanas fleet. Though I do agree that it's possible that the Shivans never intended to put up a fight in the first place and simply intended to defend their juggernauts.
It would be cool if the Ravana launched some bombers, like Nephilims for example, named Cancer wing. Then rather than attack they just jump out immediately and then the next mission, Alpha 1 gets there and there's a few bombers from "Cancer" wing left that the escort's still fending off. Things like that would've been cool. Though the time gap might've been too large.
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The Ravana could deploy all its fighter and bomber wings... :drevil:
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The Ravana could deploy all its fighter and bomber wings... :drevil:
So could the Colossuss :drevil:
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The Sathanas had its beam cannons destroyed by fighters before the Colossus killed it, while the Colossus was tenderised by a Ravana before getting beamed to death by another Sathanas from out of its firing range.
The trick using the Ravana to "weaken" the Colossus was utter stupidity. It's was like telling the Phoenicia to remain in front of the jump node with the Sathanas beaming at it.
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Maybe it would have fit pretty good just having the colossus jump out before getting destroyed. You know, have the colossus jump out with it's tail between it's legs. The death of the colossus was plenty humiliating which is why i don't really see it had to die. The colossus fighting the first sathanas was ok, it was a coordinated effort to pull off which wouldn't have gone anywhere without wings of fighters to do the declawing of the sathanas. Then the gtva discovers at least 80 sathanases. It ate a ravana for lunch, then we watched it barely scratch a sathanas while the colossus gets ****ed in the ass. Just have the damn thing jump out when it gets a chance with it's tail between it's legs.
It'll go running home crying to mommy (gtva), and mommy won't be able to do a thing about it.
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The Sathanas had its beam cannons destroyed by fighters before the Colossus killed it, while the Colossus was tenderised by a Ravana before getting beamed to death by another Sathanas from out of its firing range.
The trick using the Ravana to "weaken" the Colossus was utter stupidity. It's was like telling the Phoenicia to remain in front of the jump node with the Sathanas beaming at it.
Yeah, it felt more like simple escalation. The convoy's getting pounded, so you send in a cruiser. The cruiser's destroyed, so you tell the Ravana to investigate. The Ravana gets toasted, and you divert a Sathanas from the node and settle things once and for all.
Anyways, the Bastion would probably look like a fleeing ship. Not important enough to send more than bombers after. Maybe it's just me, but I got the feeling that the Shivans had warships to spare in Capella. If they considered the Bastion a threat they would have sent something else after it. The Colossus was blockading a node, so it had to go. But the Bastion was running away.
Now that I think about it, the fact we see the same Ravana twice makes this kind of unlikely. Maybe they only had an excess of juggernauts?
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What's with the actual supernove with ttwo different explosions? One is justs hot stuff that can't be above 3000 degrees since the Diemos and Moloch didn't melt, the other is some funky mix of plasma, raditation and other stuff, which is either very hot, very ionising (atomic destruction) or both.
I've only seen two Ravana in the main campaign, one Demon, three Molochs, a handful of Rakshasa, a few Cains (but oh WOW) and a Lilith. But they do have plenty of bombers to spare.
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Three Ravanas in the main campaign.
SD Ravana
SD Nebiros
SD Beast
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What's with the actual supernove with ttwo different explosions? One is justs hot stuff that can't be above 3000 degrees since the Diemos and Moloch didn't melt, the other is some funky mix of plasma, raditation and other stuff, which is either very hot, very ionising (atomic destruction) or both.
If there is any kind of rough physics to it, the first blast is the star 'breathing off' its outer layers, and the second is the core of the star collapsing.
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So could the Colossuss :drevil:
Oh yeah... :rolleyes:
A supernova always has two blasts.
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It wasn't exactly a natural super nova. But yeah, stars can release their outer layers before the core collapses.
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I've only seen two Ravana in the main campaign, one Demon, three Molochs, a handful of Rakshasa, a few Cains (but oh WOW) and a Lilith. But they do have plenty of bombers to spare.
At least, the GTVA can thank about one thing: the entire Shivan episode wasn't a virulent plague set loose within their system killing at will, but barely touched outer colonies . . . at least, in terms of dying.
That makes me wonder; surely the Shivans in the Second Shivan Incursion would've wanted to avenge :
1. The tens of thousands of the Shivans that died in FS1
2. Shivans that died in FS2. (Alpha 1 can rack up to 35-45 kills in the final missions)
Perhaps the supernova was a time-limited opportunity. BTW, on Bosch's monologue 1, near the end, I think one can see the starting stages of a supernova - when the first layers of the main Capella star is being cast away.
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I don't understand why you people dislike the Colossus so much. I like that ship. Even more after I finished Rogue Intentions.
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I've got no problem with it apart from the fact that its Central Command or whatever it is has to broadcast to everyone exactly, down to the last point of what's happening within with the crew. Goober expanded on that fact in his 2nd mission in DEM.
Other than that . . . I'm on your boat. :)
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I've always liked it myself, but maybe that's only because I never had the displeasure of experiencing the baseball-bat effect in High Noon. :p
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That makes me wonder; surely the Shivans in the Second Shivan Incursion would've wanted to avenge :
1. The tens of thousands of the Shivans that died in FS1
2. Shivans that died in FS2. (Alpha 1 can rack up to 35-45 kills in the final missions)
Nothing to suggest the Shivans are prone to such human weaknesses as the thirst for vengeance...
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I've always liked it myself, but maybe that's only because I never had the displeasure of experiencing the baseball-bat effect in High Noon. :p
That is totally fun :yes: There should be a fredding competition for making the colossus bat around as many ships as possible. It'd be totally cool to watch the colossus smoke 100 escape pods. Going on up to bigger ships gradually. I'd love to see a colossus take a swipe at 50 aeoli, or smack around an orion until it destroys it. The pivot point on the colossus is very unusual and great.
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That is totally fun :yes: There should be a fredding competition for making the colossus bat around as many ships as possible. It'd be totally cool to watch the colossus smoke 100 escape pods. Going on up to bigger ships gradually. I'd love to see a colossus take a swipe at 50 aeoli, or smack around an orion until it destroys it. The pivot point on the colossus is very unusual and great.
/me waves at Axem and Goober. :drevil:
The Colossus is a great ship to fly around. If there was a "last man standing" singleplayer level around the Colossus, it might be quite fun. :)
Will the Colossus have damaged the Shivan juggernaut in Their Finest Hour if all its beam weapons were changed to LRBGreens?
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Let the giant baseball bat die the canon way...
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If there is any kind of rough physics to it, the first blast is the star 'breathing off' its outer layers, and the second is the core of the star collapsing.
From my understanding of physics a supernova is a single-stage explosion caused when the star collapses in on itself enough that it reiginites considerably more intense fusion, essentially blowing it apart as its gravity is no longer able to control the reaction. (Though to be honest in basic computer simulations of it what appears to happen is the star's exterior layers collapse back, hit the core, and bounce, amusingly enough.) Losing its outer atmosphere, which isn't even necessarily a stage, should have been a considerably more...gentle result then what we saw. We know that most FS ships can stand up to starlike temperatures for brief periods, and the exterior atmosphere sloughing off would have been a brief pulse of that kind of heat, with almost no pressure component. Anything that could absorb a Helios hit or two would have been able to handle it, but this did considerably more damage.
As Capella was apparently a normal main-sequence star lacking the mass to go supernova, it would be my guess that that we saw toast the Moloch and Deimos was, in fact, the Capella supernova. We know FS ships are ridiculously durable and able to withstand things that our current materials science says are completely impossible to resist.
However, given that the most likely method the Shivans had of triggering such a supernova was to interrupt the flow of energy from the star's core to its surface via subspace portals, I think that what came next was essentially subspace fighting back; dumping that much energy into a node would have definitely collapsed it, after all. The Shivans opened, and held open, portals in the face of an energy input that makes the detonation of the Lucifer or Bastion pale in comparison. When they stopped, the resulting subspace cataclysm was certain to be impressive...perhaps impressive enough to breach the boundaries with real space.
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Hmm, maybe.
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You forgot the huge speed at which the star's exterior layers hit the ships. Since E = mv^2 / 2 , it was probably a [huge] blow, inflicting way more damage than the heat alone.
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I don't know jack squat about the atmosphere of a star, but I do know that the ships in FS2 were suggested as being nowhere near the star - several planets' worth of distance out, in fact. The sun's atmosphere is going to have to spread out pretty far for its surface area to enclose that kind of radius. So it'd be a lot less dense by the time it reached those ships.
Personally I have the feeling that if :V: was coming from the same place, they intentionally strengthened the blast to "Dramatic Effect" level, so that it looked cool and damaging and served dramatic purpose by blowing up the ships, rather than just kind of whiff past them, which would of been kind of comedic.
The "Subspace Strikes Back" theory sounds pretty legit too.
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What would have been best is....
Colossus weapons break down and is taking a beating.. when it gets down to 50%, command sends in reinforcements
Maybe 5-10 Corvette's warp in on all sides of the Shivan War-Ship.. they all fire a battery of Beam Cannons.. and while their initial "Warp-in Speed Momentum" is still making them "fly Fast" they warp out.
Warp in, throw a few vollies, then warp out before taking a hit. And this should happen three Corvette's at a time, with 4 passes (12 corvette's total).
While that is happening, the Colossus is making repairs and the Shivan's are distracted by the Corvette's.
Right as the final Corvette jumps, the Colossus is back online, and finishes the job, but still takes too much damage.
The Colossus then has to abandon ship, and a new task to escort the crew to the jump node becomes a priority.
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:wtf:
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What would have been best is....
Colossus weapons break down and is taking a beating.. when it gets down to 50%, command sends in reinforcements
Maybe 5-10 Corvette's warp in on all sides of the Shivan War-Ship.. they all fire a battery of Beam Cannons.. and while their initial "Warp-in Speed Momentum" is still making them "fly Fast" they warp out.
Remember Command barely had enough to send a few cruisers as the "fleet" which the pilots quickly ridiculed. The fleet was what, the Colossus a Mentu and a Sobek maybe? Where are they going to get another 5-10 corvettes from?? If they can spare that many ships the situation must not be all that bad.
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Maybe 5-10 Corvette's warp in on all sides of the Shivan War-Ship.. they all fire a battery of Beam Cannons.. and while their initial "Warp-in Speed Momentum" is still making them "fly Fast" they warp out.
Warp in, throw a few vollies, then warp out before taking a hit. And this should happen three Corvette's at a time, with 4 passes (12 corvette's total).
Also, corvettes and other larger ships have to re-charge their jump drives, especially if they cannot divert all available energy to their engines, because of them beaming the Sathanas. It would take at least 1 minute for the engines to totally re-charge and jump.
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Thats true about the fleet being depleted. But someone asked how the story would be better, and I was just offering an alternative.
How about 10 Transports Warp in, each carrying a Beam Turret. They Warp in, Drop the Beam Turret's, then Warp out.
Beam Turrets come online and provide a nice distraction ?
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Impossible. Keep in mind that almost all ships, save the Colossus' task force and the Bastion's escort, are involved in the exodus of Capella at that time.
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For the mission, they already gave you a tiny fleet which was considered to be insufficient to begin with. If they had the 10 corvettes, they would have deployed them from the start, or would have used them to protect other stuff...
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Good Lord guys, I know all that.
I know its Impossible for that to happen. Isn't this entire thread/Question based on what would be cool if it COULD have happend?
Ive got an even Better Solution...
The Millenium Falcon comes in, helps with the Escort while the Battlestar Galactica provides covering Fire.
Meanwhile the USS Enterprise and Voyager drop out of warp tohelp out.
And in the most Suprising turn of events, the Cylons show up to assist the Shivans.
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Good Lord guys, I know all that.
I know its Impossible for that to happen. Isn't this entire thread/Question based on what would be cool if it COULD have happend?
Uh, no...not really.
Those of us here that disliked the canonical result, I believe, disliked it because it was unrealistic and, honestly, ratehr stupid that the greatest ship ever constructed by Terrans and Vasudans just sat there and got killed without returning fire itself. That's unrealistic. If you got guns, shoot them!
It was also because there was evidence that the Colly should have at least put up a bit of a fight in the mission data.
Something completely impossible like that isn't really "cool" IMO. It'd be kinda corny..."ZOMGLOLOLOLOL Corvette spam!!!!11!!!!eleventyone Look, we have 10 corvettes, but we deciede not to help you with ur mission cuzwe cud LULZ."
The story wouldn't be better, honestly, it'd be worse...it'd turn one of the "sad moments" into something uitterly laughable.
You kinda proved that yourself with the "better solution", which is frankly atrocious.
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Good Lord guys, I know all that.
I know its Impossible for that to happen. Isn't this entire thread/Question based on what would be cool if it COULD have happend?
Well it depends what sort of story you want to tell. If you want to maintain the theme of having the Sathanas fighting in a last ditch effort against an unstoppable force for the sake of humanity then having a bunch of reinforcements come out of no where might break the otherwise tense mood. Like someone said, that mission is all about escalation. The colossus and the rest of the fleet face increasingly tougher opponents until the Sathanas warps in and ends it.
I mean yeah, having some ships warp in on the flank of a sathanas, fire some shots and jump out before the shivans can retaliate could be very cool. But for the end/death of the colossus would it work?
See one idea might be, what if in that mission, the player gets told to jump to help the Bastion. Then they jump to the Bastion, and see the Sathanas laying waste to that mofo instead. And then the Colossus, beaten and battered takes the place of the Bastion and with its massive reactors somehow creates an explosion big enough to collapse the node. And thus the end of the Colossus would be Alpha 1 protecting the ship and fleeing escape pods during its final run on the node. But then, that would steal the Bastions thunder. So who knows.
Let it die like a pig on a stick as it does already in the main campaign.
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(and people never lie in epilogues)
Right, which explains why the Shivans rebuilt the Sol jump node after FS1...
/me waves at Axem and Goober. :drevil:
Shush. :nervous:
I've had DEM2 outlined since before JAD3 came out. I just haven't had time to make it.
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(and people never lie in epilogues)
Right, which explains why the Shivans rebuilt the Sol jump node after FS1...
:nervous: FS3...
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(and people never lie in epilogues)
Right, which explains why the Shivans rebuilt the Sol jump node after FS1...
Alpha 1 did say "not in my lifetime" in reference to seeing the Shivans again. So by the time of FS2 I'm guessing that dude would still be alive. So it wasn't quite a lie :D
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The ending cinematics to both FS1 and FS2 rationalize and justify the actions of the Shivans in a way. I feel that that's just to make the player feel more satisfied, and the statements are nothing more than optimistic specualtion to make you feel better about the unknown.
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I still feel that, if the Colossus must die, it shouldn't die standing still. :blah:
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See one idea might be, what if in that mission, the player gets told to jump to help the Bastion. Then they jump to the Bastion, and see the Sathanas laying waste to that mofo instead. And then the Colossus, beaten and battered takes the place of the Bastion and with its massive reactors somehow creates an explosion big enough to collapse the node. And thus the end of the Colossus would be Alpha 1 protecting the ship and fleeing escape pods during its final run on the node. But then, that would steal the Bastions thunder. So who knows.
Let it die like a pig on a stick as it does already in the main campaign.
Uuuu...nice idea.
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Uh, no...not really.
Those of us here that disliked the canonical result, I believe, disliked it because it was unrealistic and, honestly, ratehr stupid that the greatest ship ever constructed by Terrans and Vasudans just sat there and got killed without returning fire itself. That's unrealistic. If you got guns, shoot them!
Something completely impossible like that isn't really "cool" IMO. It'd be kinda corny..."ZOMGLOLOLOLOL Corvette spam!!!!11!!!!eleventyone Look, we have 10 corvettes, but we deciede not to help you with ur mission cuzwe cud LULZ."
The story wouldn't be better, honestly, it'd be worse...it'd turn one of the "sad moments" into something uitterly laughable.
You kinda proved that yourself with the "better solution", which is frankly atrocious.
Actually, its not atrocious at all. Which may be just a matter of opinion.
I think its more asinine to think that out of the entire Terran or Vasudan Fleet, there are not at least 3-5 Beam Turrent equipped ships that cannot be re-assigned to assist the "Greatest Space fairing warship ever constructed".
Sure, maybe not 10 Corvettes - the story line would't be conductive of that, but when your Flagship is getting beat to high heaven, and can't even throw a punch back, you send in some help from somewhere!
"We are deploying the (So and so) and the (So and so) to assist - they are just coming from another battle, so they are hurt, blah blah blah".
Might even make one of them appear WAY off course, so he can't help for a few minutes anyway...
Despite the fact that it may not "Build up the story", thats just a tactical decision.
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Deployed from where though? Are you forgetting that the GTVA were preparing to seal off both nodes? If you have lots of ships in system you increase the chance of them being left behind when the node seals.
The reason why the GTVA was so low on ships in Capella wasn't just cause they lost a lot of them in combat but also cause they were pulling ships out through the nodes.
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Even more a reason not to risk the Collie - especially once it's fighterbay got damaged.
The zods are smart - they have 2 bays.
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The Colossus is actually quite fast and also able to take quite a pounding from the Shivans without much of a fighter escort. It's actually the best ship to have as a rearguard.
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The Collossus was the most powerful ship. It is the one that can be relid on most to actually stay alive under most circumstances, even against massive waves of Shivan Bombers.
You also have to know that Command did intend to pull the Colossus out, they just refused to bail, though I don't really know exactly how it helped at all just sitting there for twenty seconds until the Sath killed it. That aside, if someone just decieds to disobey orders, it might be difficult to suddenly find someone to assist the idiots that wouldn't listen, regardless if it is their most powerful warship. This becomes compounded when they're trying to evacuate, and there are dozens of engagements elsewhere with all capable combat craft already engaged.
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I voted Supernova. But retrospectively, thinking back to that very first time i finished the campaign, i did the last eight or so missions all in one go. I remember feeling despair and horror what with the tones of voice used by allied "staff" and the whole mood of previous missions complimented it very well. In :v: i trust. I'm changing to canon.
Also everyone of my mates i forced at gunpoint to play agreed. FreeSpace couldn't be faulted.
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I'm changing to canon.
Also everyone of my mates i forced at gunpoint to play agreed. FreeSpace couldn't be faulted.
You can change your vote if you haven't already. I enabled vote switching. ;)
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I agree that the Collie is the best ship for the job of drawing the shivan attention, but it's been doing that fine for 15 minutes. Once the Sath came in the jig was up. There was no sense in staying there.
30 seconds of attention won't make a difference anyway. The Colossus dies for NOTHING. Now, if it actually engaged and kept the Sath busy for several minutes (enough for the Bastion to do it's job), THEN I would say it did a good job.
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Here's a scenario if the Colossus listened to Command:
Colossus makes a random jump, Shivans don't follow it, but instead go after the next big thing- Bastion running to nuke the node, or the escapees running out of Capella through the Vega node. Sathanas jumps in, pulverises the Bastion or the escapees and still nukes the star. Everyone dies, no other ship to nuke the nodes, before they can do that, the nebula in FS cools down enough for the Shivans to pass and invade the GTVA.
Or, the Colossus jumps out to the Vega node, or near the Bastion. Sathanas follows and nukes both the Colossus and the fleet. Result's the same as above.
Normally, the Shivans nuke the Colossus and considers that the main objective was acomplished, and the Sath returns to the campfire ( Capella sun ).
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Or (and far more plausible) the Sath returns to the others around the sun.
Big ships need time to charge their jump drive, so the Sath can't be jumping around everywhere like crazy. Indeed, it has been mentioned that the Sathanas fleet has NOT engaged any warships. Why would they start now? It's not like they know what the GTVA is planning and what the Bastion is carrying.
So, exactly what would the shivans throw at the Bastion that they haven't thrown already? And more importantly, WHY?
The only thing capable of destroying the Bastion in those 30 seconds the Collie bought is the Sath. It could have gone after the bastion once it gutted the Collie, but it didn't. So what makes you think it would have gone there is the Collie escaped? Wouldn't the shivans consider the Collie running heaviyl damaged a victory too?
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Big ships need time to charge their jump drive, so the Sath can't be jumping around everywhere like crazy. Indeed, it has been mentioned that the Sathanas fleet has NOT engaged any warships. Why would they start now? It's not like they know what the GTVA is planning and what the Bastion is carrying.
The only thing capable of destroying the Bastion in those 30 seconds the Collie bought is the Sath. It could have gone after the bastion once it gutted the Collie, but it didn't. So what makes you think it would have gone there is the Collie escaped? Wouldn't the shivans consider the Collie running heaviyl damaged a victory too?
/me waves at Admiral Aken H. Bosch.
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Bosch doesn't know that they're trying to collapse the nodes...
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Bosch doesn't know that they're trying to collapse the nodes...
If he's in a position of authority and has the knowledge of most of their battles he could probably figure it out. It's safe to assume that the Shivan fighters in . . . . Lion at the Gate or whatever that thing's called would've radioed back that there were 'huge ass bombs' near the portal. The shivans could also figure it out by the lack of a Knossos when the Sathanas exited on the other side.
I don't think Bosch would be "Locutus" or anything like that, but he may be a bit like Baltar from either the old or new series and has the potential to advise the shivans what the GTVA's course of action might be. Assuming that the Shivans give a crap in the first place. Which is extremely unlikely.
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The Shivans might, since they decided to get a Sathanas to destroy the Colossus quickly, instead of wearing it down with many destroyers. The destruction of Sathanas 01 probably showed them that the Alliance has the technology required to exploit the weaknesses in their juggernaut.
Bosch may have known that the GTVA were constructing Meson Bombs in Hideki long before A Flaming Sword. Only people with a lot of authority can construct a mobile and powerful ship and create an asteroid around it.
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This is technically not a necro. I...I just don't want this topic to die.
I think this is one of the great unanswered questions of the FreeSpace saga. Perhaps we could make a summary of what's been decided?
Anyway, this line of thought involves a lot of speculation as to Bosch's fate. We're not even sure ETAK was a success, or exactly how flexible it was. We know it was successful enough for Bosch to be confident enough to attempt contact, but the war still raged. Was Bosch's defection/surrender/capture a turning point in the war? It's been too long for me to recall. Did the ETAK project actually change the course of the Second Shivan Incursion?
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And what does that have to do with the fate of the GTVA Colossus?
As for ETAK, nothing has been decided. You may believe what you wish. Its better that way.
ETAK probably didn't change the course of the SSI, though. The first Sathanas already pushed into Capella before the GTVA acquired ETAK, and it doesn't seem that the GTVA attempted to communicate with the Shivans in any shape or form.
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Well, Mr. Exeunt mentioned up there that the Shivans may have extracted info about the Bastion from Bosch, if I understand his cryptic hints correctly. In order for this to work,
a)Bosch would have had to know about GTVA plans
b)Bosch would have had to be able to speak freely with the Shivans, meaning a perfect version of ETAK.
...and I completely forgot the GTVA managed to extract the ETAK specifications. Constructing the device and figuring out how to work it would probably have taken more time than they had anyway.
EDIT: :bump: (apparently this makes things better)
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This is technically not a necro.
If it's not a necro, it's a bump, and both of them are the same.
I won't use :necro: on you, Koopa, but next time, please use the :bump: smiley if you want to post on a non-stickied topic that hasn't received new posts for a month.
Well, Mr. Exeunt mentioned up there that the Shivans may have extracted info about the Bastion from Bosch, if I understand his cryptic hints correctly.
You did, I'll give you that. :nod:
And call me AE if it's easier on your fingers. ;)
Bosch might also have told them about the full specifications of the GTVA Colossus so that they could destroy it without having to take any damage. Note that, by default, the Colossus' beams have a severe range disadvantage over the Sathanas.
The only reason why the Colossus could lash out at the Sathanas in High Noon was because all its beams were replaced with the long-range LRBGreen, which has a 400m advantage over the BFReds on the Sathanas' arms. In Their Finest Hour, however, the Colossus was using its normal loadout, so it could not attack the Sathanas that destroyed it.
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Bosch himself mentions that the contact with the shivans was "rudimentary and crude".
It doesn't look like ETAK was advanced enough to allow easy communication where things can be easily explained.
Evne if he had data on the Colossuss (doubtfull) how would he explain them to the shivans? I doubt their electronics or data storage systems are compatabile, or that they could make heads or tails out of the gibberish.
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Bosch himself mentions that the contact with the shivans was "rudimentary and crude".
It doesn't look like ETAK was advanced enough to allow easy communication where things can be easily explained.
Er, no. He says their "first attempts" were rudimentary and crude. Implying that latter communication was at a more sophisticated level.
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I think the second option is the most logic one. The battle against Sathanas 17 would have been more epic and desperate had the Colossus tried to fire back...
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Bosch himself mentions that the contact with the shivans was "rudimentary and crude".
It doesn't look like ETAK was advanced enough to allow easy communication where things can be easily explained.
Bosch was referring to the first attempts he actually used etak to try communication with the shivans, it also means that he didn't know their language yet.
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If you take the time frame into consideration it's highly unlikely (read: impossible) to decypher the shivan language and fine tune a translator to work without a hitch in just a day or two (which is roughly how much time passed between the Iceni-shivan contact and the abduction of Bosch).
Remember, that all shivan living specimen were terminated, and that shivans are as alien as one can possibly be in everything.
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Id say a a mix of option 2, and something else.
The Colossus should have gotten onto a huge beam fight with the sathanas, but then when it's hull gets to about 15% it rams Sathanas 17, taking out both ships.
I also find that it has a certain amount of dramatic irony, considering that the NTD repulse tried to ram the colossus
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Actually, even the canon ending of the Colossus is a bit ironic. The Colossus could only take out Sathanas 01 because the Shivan Juggernauts main beams were destroyed. In Their Finest Hour, the Sathanas was only able to destroy the Colossus without taking damage because the GTVA Juggernaut was disabled, and the Shivan Juggernaut was out of the Colossus' beam range, rendering them useless.
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If you take the time frame into consideration it's highly unlikely (read: impossible) to decypher the shivan language and fine tune a translator to work without a hitch in just a day or two (which is roughly how much time passed between the Iceni-shivan contact and the abduction of Bosch).
Remember, that all shivan living specimen were terminated, and that shivans are as alien as one can possibly be in everything.
Bosch was probably mostly going on whatever information he was able to get back from the gti rebellion. And for being able to work out an alliance with the shivans after many crude attempts...back in the gti rebellion, the gti scientists must have been very close to completing a shivan communications device (remember they were very successful at hybridizing shivan and terran technology...in the gti rebellion, the gti rebels were the experts at everything shivan, even so much more than the gtva scientists). After that, whatever bosch was doing before the ntf rebellion, and during the ntf rebellion; i bet his desire for communicating with the shivans existed long before the ntf rebellion.
There isn't even much of a given time table that the A1 follows in the game. He was fighting at the end of the 14 months of the ntf rebellion. The time table can be speculative, there probably is a way to follow it. They do throw out years, dates, and times sometimes in the game.
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All that's known about the GTI's research into Shivans is that they managed to incorporate Shivan weaponry into Terran ships, which is probably much simpler than creating a device capable of communicating with the Shivans. Keep in mind that Arjuna 1 was retrofitted for Terran use in just a matter of days, even though the reverse-engineering of the SF Dragon was very rudimentary at best.
In 2367, Triton Dynamics only took a few months to flawlessly reverse-engineer four SF Maras for Terran use.
Despite this, they've never appeared to be able to create a Shivan communication device. Either that, or maybe Command didn't want to make one, or dare not make one. This must either mean those, or that communicating with the Shivans is much, much harder to do than reverse-engineer their technology.
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Despite this, they've never appeared to be able to create a Shivan communication device. Either that, or maybe Command didn't want to make one, or dare not make one. This must either mean those, or that communicating with the Shivans is much, much harder to do than reverse-engineer their technology.
They use quantum waves for their comms, right? Perhaps it has something to do with unbreakable encryption (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7661311.stm). Funny thing is that they seem to have tried to contact us once, on our own (radio?) channels...
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They use quantum waves for their comms, right? Perhaps it has something to do with unbreakable encryption (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7661311.stm). Funny thing is that they seem to have tried to contact us once, on our own (radio?) channels...
You mean in "Speaking in Tongues"? I think they were trying to communicate with Bosch, and some transmissions leaked over to allied channels.
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But then the Vasudans totally messed up the whole experiment. By killing that Shivan cruiser, and the Iceni just jumped out without staying over to help might just be the reason why just before they abducted Bosch, they killed the majority of the Iceni's crew.
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But then the Vasudans totally messed up the whole experiment. By killing that Shivan cruiser, and the Iceni just jumped out without staying over to help might just be the reason why just before they abducted Bosch, they killed the majority of the Iceni's crew.
Maybe they started killing the crew on the lower decks before Bosch managed to send some sort of message across to the Shivans to stop.
Or perhaps the Shivans do know what it feels like to get pissed? :nervous:
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Or perhaps the menial crew members who weren't in on the whole ETAK thing panicked when Shivans busted down their front door and opened fire.
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There was a heck of a lot more going on at gti headquarters than just hybridizing technology. This is very apparent.
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My back-on-topic-opinion:
I didn't get a chance to read the entire thread, so I don't know if someone has mentioned this, but it wouldn't just involve how the Colossus dies, but how the Shivans ended things, as well as a few things about the Colossus' design.
The idea is, that the Colossus has a new reactor powering it, something enough to seal a node if it blew. Instead of the blow-up-Capella ending, have the Shivans simply threaten to invade beyond the system into the others. The Colossus manages to escape from destruction at the hands of the Sath, but takes heavy damage. The Bastion manages to close the Epsilon-Pegasi node, but the Nerid blows up prematurely, leaving Command with no way to seal the Vega node. The Colossus jumps in near the Vega node attempting to escape the system, but begins to take heavy fire from multiple shivan capital ships. Upon hearing of the Nerid's failure, the commander of the Colossus decides to use the ship's advanced reactor to seal the node with, directly sacrificing his ship and crew to save the GTVA from invasion.
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CUT
And there you have it. Another way to end the Colossus. :nod:
When I first started this thread, I was wondering if the "Something Else" option was redundant. Good thing it wasn't. :D
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But...but...that ruins the overwhelming bleakness of the ending! The Colossus goes from a futile waste to a heroic effort that ultimately pays off.
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The idea is, that the Colossus has a new reactor powering it, something enough to seal a node if it blew. Instead of the blow-up-Capella ending, have the Shivans simply threaten to invade beyond the system into the others. The Colossus manages to escape from destruction at the hands of the Sath, but takes heavy damage. The Bastion manages to close the Epsilon-Pegasi node, but the Nerid blows up prematurely, leaving Command with no way to seal the Vega node. The Colossus jumps in near the Vega node attempting to escape the system, but begins to take heavy fire from multiple shivan capital ships. Upon hearing of the Nerid's failure, the commander of the Colossus decides to use the ship's advanced reactor to seal the node with, directly sacrificing his ship and crew to save the GTVA from invasion.
This would be a very bland move in the game had V chosen to do it.
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Yeah. The Colossus should die in futility.
That doesn't mean it should just sit there and get roasted though - it should at least try to defend itself.
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Irony wins. :lol:
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If iwas doing FS2: the series/Movie, id have the colossus ram Sath 17, or do something like this:
The Colossus jumps into the middle of a formation of 4 Demon class destroyers, guarding the G-Drax node. The four destroyers are quickly destroyed. Mission then proceeds similar to how it did in the game untill the Beast is destroyed. At this point, the colossus gets mobbed by a swarm of ships;
4 Demons
3 Molochs
6 Liliths
Over the next 5 minutes the colossus destroys 2 of the Demons and Cripples a 3rd, destroys on of the Molochs and blows the Liliths to pieces. The ramaining shivan vessels are destroyed by supporting GTVA forces, ie the cruisers/Corvettes in the Area. However, the colossus is crippled by the onslaught; Hull is ~27%. More than two thirds of the crew are dead, including the most of the senior staff. Weapons are off line, Comms are wacked out. Fires are burning on all decks and huge hull-breeches scar the ship. The landing bays are in ruins, so evacuations is impossible and the reactors are about 10 minutes away from meltdown. Basically, she's virtually dead in space.
At this point Sath 17 jumps in and effectively flips the bird at the Colossus by ignoring it and goes after the other ships in the blockade. The Commanding officer of the Colossus, knowing that his ship is doomed anyway, ignores Commands orders and has the colossus ram the Sathanas, destroying both ships.
My Fates for Various crew members on the colossus:
Tactical Officer: Killed by scrapnel from the blast that kills the XO
Executive Officer: Killed when a conduit on the CIC area explodes
Command Master Chief (Chief of the Ship (COS): Killed by falling Debris
Helm officer: Beheaded by debris from the same blast as above
Conn Officer: Electrocuted by a surge through his console
Comms officer: Killed when her console explodes in her face
Chief Medical Officer: Killed by a fire in the sickbay
Chief Engineer: Killed by a hull breech.
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Hum. At 27%?
That seems like pretty much, maybe something like 7% might be better, seems more like the Colly is really on the brink of destruction.
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I think consoles only explode that much in Star Trek.
Same with 'conduits'.
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Nah Pipes and fuel line blow out all the time in Submarine combat. Conduit=Fuel/power line. I've also seen work stations blown out in things other than Trek.
okay maybe not 27%, how about 13.5% admiral
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Given the way Freespace ships are designed, I'd think it more likely that the crew remains largely untouched (due to the protection of the inner hull) until very low hull percentages, and then dies en masse when the ship explodes.
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When the Pheonicia dies it says something about casualties on all decks, so I'm not sure.
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The over half the crew of the pheonicia is killed in Sath#1's opening volley...As to the phoenicia dying, well that's hit and miss for me. Sometime she jumps out, and some times she doesn't thus i treat each replay of the mission/campaign as an alternate timeline of events
anyway
in every mission where you are protectin escape pods that are being launched from a ship they do make mention of the evacuation of survivors
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When the Pheonicia dies it says something about casualties on all decks, so I'm not sure.
I think NGTM1-R (who kind of spearheaded the inner hull/outer hull analysis) took this to mean that the Phoenicia's inner hull was really ravaged by those BFReds, and that the crew casualties were very much unusual.
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When the Pheonicia dies it says something about casualties on all decks, so I'm not sure.
The captain said something like this...
This is the Phoenicia! We've got a hull breach on twelve decks! 25% of our crew is down! Authorization or not, we're getting out of here, Command!
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by that time, I think it had about 4% HP left.
So yeah, it does a pretty good job of keeping its crew alive, at least until it blows up.