Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Unknown Target on March 17, 2012, 07:55:34 pm
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Anyone else pick this up? It seems like a cool and very deep strategy game, but I'm struggling with the weird-me-out interface and lack of information on what units do, how I can call in reinforcements, etc. One of the things it seems the devs did was simulate pretty much every warfighting vehicle known to man in the 1980s; which is cool but it leaves me wondering: just what does a Chieften Mk I have against a Leopard Mk I? What about the MK II vs Mk III of both versions? I may have to dig up some military history books to really enjoy this game.
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Some of that information is assumedly classified, so I'd guess that armor is only estimated in terms of performance with regards to thickness, slope, and type. It also depends on the engine and how settings in the game are established. Is it a simulation, or a game? Obviously, at some level it's both, but I think you understand my question.
As far as realism goes, if it's more like a strategy game focused on simulation (like Combat Mission), then there might not be much of a difference at all in NATO tanks, whereas a strategy game focused on being a game might try to balance tanks to being better at certain tasks based on what the designer thinks is right. I'm guessing their home webpage or forum is a better place to start for digging up that information than here.
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Well, UT, that depends entirely on how well their simulation works. However there are significant differences between the vehicles you mention. (Particular a Leopard 1Awhatever and a Leopard 2Aanything.)
From what I've heard it's basically Steel Panthers on a prettier stage, and there were certainly detectable differences in that game between various vehicles.
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I've been following this game for a while. I suggest checking out the SA thread, which has some of the game's best players and provides a pretty comprehensive intro for newcomers.b
This is a really unique, cool strategy game that doesn't follow the Warcraft/Dune 2000/C+C mold. Artillery, however, is not so much queen of the battlefield as supreme ****ing potentate.
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Artillery, however, is not so much queen of the battlefield as supreme ****ing potentate.
Goddammit don't tempt me Batts, I've not been able to first-turn facerape somebody with artillery since Steel Panthers 3 stopped working reliably. :(
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Been playing it on and off for a couple of weeks, well designed and quite reminiscent of the original Ground Control in some ways. The problem with the wtflol interface has already been mentioned :)
The only complaint I would have with regards to the simulation itself is more down to the fact that it's not a simulation but is a game. In other words, the 'quality vs quantity' argument of NATO vs USSR has been deliberately stretched in some cases to give NATO a far more equal standing in conventional military than they actually had at the time. Panzers were damn good tanks, but not quite that good ;)
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The only complaint I would have with regards to the simulation itself is more down to the fact that it's not a simulation but is a game. In other words, the 'quality vs quantity' argument of NATO vs USSR has been deliberately stretched in some cases to give NATO a far more equal standing in conventional military than they actually had at the time. Panzers were damn good tanks, but not quite that good ;)
You'll note that since about 1991 the Russians have scrambled for a new tank, with a new model of T-80 being put out shortly after Gulf 1, T-90 being developed to replace T-80 temporarily, and T-99 is in the pipe to give them a completely new hull to work with.
Their quantity model lost on the ground in Gulf 1, much as it lost in the air during the 1970s against the Israelis. (The development of the MiG-29 and Su-27 can be traced directly to the failure of the MiG-21 and MiG-23 in those battles.) The Republican Guard was actually well-trained and competent by Soviet standards, and we all know how well their T-72s (the quantity vehicle) fared against tanks that are very similar to the first models of Leopard 2.
In many ways, the First Gulf War was a theoretical World War 3 played out in miniature.
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Last I knew Warsaw Pact was considered the slightly better faction in-game.
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I suppose that's the thing though, things are pretty well balanced because it's a game, so there has to be some median between the two forces, but an actual land-war between the countries wouldn't be ;)
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Some of the stuff in this game is far too obscure. I'm having trouble proving the PT-90 variant ever existed outside of some deranged game designer's head (the only 90mm armed variant I've been able to find is actually made as a refit in Israel, for export), and the PT-85 is only known through some fragmentary comments about the invasion of Czechoslovakia. The V variants? ohgodwat, the V was a base security vehicle back in the days when people expected Spetznaz to show up before the tanks rolled through Fulda Gap (and before the Hummer was designed), why is it even in this game?
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Also, I note that tanks can generally take more than one hit from other tanks' main gun rounds, and I recently had cause to prove my Leopard 1A4s could soak at least one Sagger, but a direct hit from a LAW-type weapon destroys the vehicle instantly.
This has both frustrated me, and been incredibly useful (bushwhacking T-72s rather than executing a complex flanking maneuver with my Challengers and Leopards), but it's still intensely weird if I can soak a Sagger or a 125mm HEAT shell that my tanks will get taken down by an RPG, or that their tanks can soak an L7A1 round and yet get taken down by a Blindicide.
(And why did the Czechs copypasta the Sdkz. 251 design for a halftrack?)
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I checked out some vids, this I will be getting soon as I get home.
Course I find my time for playing games is pretty limited these days.
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A well-executed rocket barrage answers to no man and suffers no equals.
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Anybody out there figured out what constitutes line of sight for ATGMs? It doesn't quite seem beholden to the same limitations as tank guns.
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I dunno but my Raketenjagdpanzers must have fired a dozen ATGMs to take out one katayusha rocket truck that wandered over to my FOB :P
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I dunno but my Raketenjagdpanzers must have fired a dozen ATGMs to take out one katayusha rocket truck that wandered over to my FOB :P
ATGMs really need vet to be useful.
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Some of the missiles seem to be less-sensitive to elevation changes than guns. Although every time I see a wire-guided missile fired through a forest I wonder what the game designers are on.
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After giving the game some more time, I'm really starting to understand it and even enjoy it a whole lot more. It's definitely interesting, I just wish its interface was a bit more intelligble.
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This is most fun. I think I have built a pretty decent NATO deck, Bundeswher themed with a few select units from other NATO factions. I'm looking forward to dedicating some time to get shellacked in multi and until I temper my craft. Lot of macro/micro balance I need to sharpen before I'm satisfied.
If anybody knows how do you assign and select control groups? That's probably the biggest command and control issue I have right now. Not being able to instantaneously call up units such as my artillery or mortars while I'm observing the front is a major pain in the rear.
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I'm actually quite fond of the game. Having a lot of fun both playing serious games over multi, and just screwing around with a mate. I've built a Soviet-centric deck, although I think it's pretty tank heavy, and i've been running into some supply issues in longer-running games lately, so I may have to rethink some of it.
Love the artillery. I love the effect on both the troops and the enemy player when you saturate a control zone with shells, I've found that it can really create a panic to take out the artillery, even if it's of negligible effectiveness. I've taken out many an ill-advised thrust or shot down exposed aircraft that way. Plus, Soviet artillery is just boss.
My only major gripe is the total lack of fast-mover air support. I want to be able to call in an A-10 for assistance! Granted, this type of gameplay doesn't really lend itself to that sort of thing. But maybe a tactical power system akin to World in Conflict would work well. I don't know, I just feel that it's missing a large part of the conflict by not including aircraft beyond helicopters.
If anybody knows how do you assign and select control groups? That's probably the biggest command and control issue I have right now. Not being able to instantaneously call up units such as my artillery or mortars while I'm observing the front is a major pain in the rear.
The old RTS standby of "Ctrl+[number]" for numbered control groups, as far as I'm aware. Very handy for microing a scout helicopter and laying down artillery fire with minimal fuss.
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It's ironic you'd ask for fastmovers because one of the earlier Eugen RTS games, while far less realistic overall, had the best air unit system I've seen in an RTS.
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Yeah got the control groups working, for some screwy reason I didn't think Ctrl+Number worked the first time I tried it and assumed it was something esoteric. In addition to Arty, Mortars are pretty boss and very accurate. Make sure you keep your logistics routes clear of sneaky bastards though, last night I had secured a few important CPs with dug in infantry called in some vet Leo 1A4s to start putting together an offensive push and they got smoked entering the map by some Czech infantry PACT had snuck around.
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Never lead with armored vehicles in the woods. It will end badly. (You'd think I would learn.) The early versions of the MBT-70 project are pretty cool, but extremely expensive.
And my god, how did I ever survive without supply helos?
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I'm really hoping they start introducing more game modes in the future, it's a bit of a odd idea that in reality seizing or holding ground is the secondary objective to murderating OpFor's pricey units in a race to the destruction limit. I wish you could retire transports as well. Once I drop off some Rangers or Chaussers Famas being able to send those Hueys or VABs back off the map for some point reclamation would be great.
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My Hind-A pilots apparently do a few bars of Ride of the Valkyries when on an attack run now.
wtf
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My Hind-A pilots apparently do a few bars of Ride of the Valkyries when on an attack run now.
wtf
So don't my Mi-24Vs. I accidently deployed to multi utilizing the Pact Air Mobile Deck I was experimenting with. Mix of Spetz in Hinds, Konkurs and Strellas in Mi8s plus a mix of support and BMP 685s. After going oh **** I'm running a trick deck it actually worked pretty well, I swooped round to the back of their side dropped my troops. The troops pushed forward on the ground and the helis backed them up. Seized their FOBs out from under them. They tried to Gazzell Hot rush my initial position but I had some AA that ate them.
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Well, multi is fun, though I keep getting stuck 2v1 because I'm so low-level and and a sucker, and I'm saddened at the poor accuracy of rocket artillery from long range.
And my scout copter pilots probably hate me for sending them into the enemy deployment zone and calling a barrage on their position. But hey. It works.
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Starslayer's more or less right about the infantry transports thing; once I have them in position, I don't want to use the APCs again very often in single, and pretty much never in multi. They end up getting used as artillery spotters or charging attack helicopters to machinegun them, or other equally suicidal things.
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An interesting lesson: infantry can beat up attack helicopters that don't know any better. Forty German Jagers on foot, having lost their transports to a swarm of various types of Hind, set about marching to an enemy-controlled area. Because the other player didn't realize they were there and apparently assumed they died in their M113s, they hijacked six supply trucks and nuked an enemy command vehicle, then hid in some woods.
The other player sent over the Hinds again, many of them slightly damaged from having tangled with a company of Gepards. Misjudging which set of woods my guys were in, they flew over the first to reach the second. Big mistake.
Forty guys on foot with assault rifles bushwhacked six attack helicopters, killed three, and sent the other three scurrying off to the enemy deployment zone for repairs, for the loss of six men. They did comparatively better than my Gepards and Chaparrals.
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Small arms fire is scarier than you think. :D
What kind of Hinds was your adversary sporting? The Hind is a tough cookie, and I'm thinking that even with lots of concentrated small arms fire, bringing one down by that alone wouls take a lot of ammunition, not to mention accurate placement thereof.
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It was a weird mix; some of the high-end VP or V, and at least 3 Hind-As. It's hard to tell the non-A variants apart at a glance. At least one of them died turning to run after the sheer amount of 7.62mm flying around scared the crew into backing off, but yeah, I've seen Hinds soak assault rifle fire to the front a lot in the single-player. The mistake was in the fact they were flying almost overhead before they realized they were getting shot at, so there were a lot of side and rear shots before they got their crap together.
People like to use mobs of attack helicopters a lot in multi to push forward early and then as a mobile reserve. They're actually quite hard to counter as a defensive force, since they usually outrange you by a good bit and most AA vehicles and IFVs will get killed by folding-fin rockets, while your tanks will usually break and be driven back from the sheer amount of incoming fire well before they can fire their coax or AA machineguns. (And my god are Chapparals bad SAMs; I really need to invest in Rolands and maybe OH-58s with Stingers soon.)
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Rollies are pretty good, plus they're tough enough to stick close to your forward lines and not go boom if sneezed at. I'm interested in the Stinger Kiowa as well, right now I'm using Gazelle as recce helos but I wonder if a Hellfire and Stinger Kiowa pair might be good for both scouting/taking out enemy recce helos.
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The Cobra should be a pretty good AA chopper, and the Apache is also fully aerobatic. It would be fun if they threw in the Sikorsky Blackhawk just as a "what if" helo for the NATO forces. We were this close to having an equivalent counter to the Hind back in the day...
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Ah-1s and 64s would need to get into shooty range and I tend to keep my gunships over friendly ground forces and away from AA nastiness. It'd be just my luck to go chase some Mi-2 into Mr. Buk & Co. While it might be rather specialist and points heavy being able to quickly and safely dispatch any snoopers is attractive. When I get the points I'll add it to the deck and see if it pays dividends.
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The Cobra should be a pretty good AA chopper, and the Apache is also fully aerobatic. It would be fun if they threw in the Sikorsky Blackhawk just as a "what if" helo for the NATO forces. We were this close to having an equivalent counter to the Hind back in the day...
tbh there are a number of other whatifs, including the MBT-70 and the M8 AGS.
Although Thaeris has a point; it should be possible to fire reasonably advanced ATGMs at a helo with some chance of success. Even a tank main gun from an Abrams/Challenger/Leopard 2 should be able to get a hit.
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Unless the chopper isn't moving, than hitting it with the main gun is very, very unlikely. I've hit immobile helos on occasion in ArmA II, but it's very difficult. You're better off using commander's MG for it.
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I don't mind missing so much as not having the chance to offer some kind, any kind, of defensive fire.
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That and some kind, any kind, of defensive fire is going to decrease the effectiveness of any offensive capability from the helos themselves, considering it's a lot harder to hit things ifi you're trying very hard to not be hit by something that will leave you a strip of scattered, smoking wreckage across the battlefield.
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And, really, if the Iraqis could bushwhack SeaCobras during the Iran-Iraq War and shoot them down with Falanga/Spiral ATGMs (helicopter to helicopter, no less; literally the only recorded instances of helo dogfighting took place during the Iran-Iraq War), then I should goddamn well be able to pop off an I-TOW and hit a Hind that's hovering.
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At what dates does the game take place in? Surely your attack helos can carry heat-seekers?
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At what dates does the game take place in? Surely your attack helos can carry heat-seekers?
In theory, yes, but like many such strategy games you get the units and the loadouts they come with, which do not always reflect every possible loadout.
Besides, IIRC the whole Stinger/Apache program is a '90s thing and this is all pretty '80s; there were experiments with putting Sidewinders on Apaches before that but they weren't too encouraging. I don't know there was ever a successful Russian launch from a Hind or Havoc, though they supposedly have the ability.
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Hmmm, well, I was figuring AAM's for your helos would be a possibility, considering the AGM-122 as a child of the 80's:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-122.html
You will find this weapon used on Cobras and AV-8's, even today. I think this would indicate the Cobra was capable of launching the '9 at that period as well, though I've yet to see proper documentation on the issue.
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The correct way to destroy helicopters in this game is to shoot them with artillery
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The correct way to destroy helicopters in this game is to shoot them with artillery
Considering I just plastered someone's concentration of UH-1M Hogs/Heavy Hogs with my Smerchs and it worked, I agree.
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I tried to shoot down some Hinds with my M110s, but the Roland 2s got to them first. :(
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Now I love this game dearly but it's weird that they patched in a demo for something called 'Leopard A2 vs. T80: whoever wins, ATGMs miss'
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hard light elite tearing it up
axem, spoon, and battuta, at fulda gap
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My Hind-A pilots apparently do a few bars of Ride of the Valkyries when on an attack run now.
wtf
I was running my Brit Deck and my Lynx TOWs whistle a few bars as well.
Had a pretty fun game a earlier this week, 3 vs 3 on Storm Eye 1000pt start. Put together a pretty good Bundeswher infantry force and seized Echo. The Pact Air Mobile Force sent to seize it had an unfortunate go of it. They then sent a steady stream of infantry and tanks to dislodge me. I reinforced the infantry with a pair of Marder VTS1s and some M113 mortars and smoked pretty much everything they threw against me. Meanwhile one of my allies made a big sweeping attack up through Juliet and back to Foxtrot. Turned it into a nasty hammer and anvil.
(http://i46.tinypic.com/2822vyg.jpg)
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Mortar carriers ****ing own. Pact doesn't really have an answer to them aside from the expensive (though awesome) Burrito. On the other hand Pact tube arty is pretty much better in every way, so it's a fair tradeoff.
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I typically only take a few arty pieces, either for counter battery or some precision hurt delivery so I only use Danas for Pact or Aufs for NATO which seem pretty similar as far as capabilities go.
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You should never have more than four tube arty pieces no matter what you're using, but I don't use big field pieces at all for NATO - I prefer to have an organic mortar element with my armor spearhead.
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You should never have more than four tube arty pieces no matter what you're using, but I don't use big field pieces at all for NATO - I prefer to have an organic mortar element with my armor spearhead.
Tell that to the bonehead I got partnered with a while back on Hell's Highway. Took all PzH 109Gs... the other one burned his points on some expensive Abrams while I again built a solid Bundeswher infantry mix. Unfortunately the CV I brought got picked off by a Hind swarm during the initial advance(stupid me) but I still smoked the choppers and set up a solid position along Delta. Arty noob tube spends the whole game blind firing 155 all over the map, sometimes on me to boot. Abrams guy manages to get bogged down around Echo, even though I even send to logistics to repair his armour he pretty much sits there till he loses his forces to attrition. By pure dint of luck and the determination of my plucky Germans I still manage to keep us a few points ahead. Then all of a sudden the game ends...
It took me two replays to realize what actually happened. Noob Tube didn't bother to set up an defenses for his artillery park at the spawn. PACT managed to sneak some forces down the flank and blew the crap out of the last CV.
Oh and I nearly forgot they both took friggen command jeeps instead of VABs or M577s or Sultans...
Grrr Argh
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So, I just got this game and could use some pointers....
(I am really impressed by the graphics though. Looks pretty cool, even on my crap system)
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So, I just got this game and could use some pointers....
(I am really impressed by the graphics though. Looks pretty cool, even on my crap system)
Some decent guides on the English part of the forum (http://www.wargame-ee.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4066), there is a forum in Deutsch but since I nein sprechen sie I cannot vouch safe how good their stuff is.
I'd suggest playing through the first "Campaign" to get a hang of how it plays. The first one is mostly Bundeswher and a pretty good way to get your feet wet. Look over some of the guides before you start spending points unlocking units, to get a feel of whats worth getting and whats a waste.
I run a mostly Bundeswher deck myself, wuv my Leos n' Luchs, but you will probably want to mix and match different NATO member nations to get the best force.
Plus:
Don't send vehicles into enemy controlled towns and forests, recon, recon, recon, recon, keep your choppers away from AA, maintain logistics, recon, combined arms is good, helo rushing and arty spamming are dumb, recon.
Did I forget to mention recon?
Batts, and NGTM-1R can probably contribute some more tips.
Also have fun!
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NGTM-1R
To be honest I haven't put much time in to multi recently and I was never very good.
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Well, okay, a few notes.
Infantry with RPGs or other unguided rockets are more effective than infantry with ATGMs. They don't reveal themselves with errant fire until the range is short enough to score hits, they have more weapons to shoot off, they do it faster, and more members of the squad are armed with them so they fire more at once.
Artillery is not generally effective except in groups. A single piece or even two just isn't going to buy you anything. If fewer than four guns is going to consume more than forty/thirty percent of your points, don't bother. Maybe you can bring them in for the final push later.
Recon: cheap and many. Or else.
IFVs: Actually kind of superfluous. You want infantry to hold those treelines, the vehicles that get them there are extra. I've done weird things with my APCs like use them to bushwhack attack helicopters by charging out of treelines or other madness. In general the fact they outrange their cargo means you want to try and keep them quiet until the infantry open fire if you put them on the line. But they're much more likely to get spotted and call down the wrath of god on your defense, so even that's risky.
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I find Danas and Aufs have the accuracy to be useful even in a small numbers of 2 to 4, especially for counter battery I typically only bring a few tube arty if any. Actually NATO mortar carriers are probably my most favored fire support, even though the range is relatively short they are very good at putting rounds on target even without spotting.
Make sure you don't take units, especially expensive ones, in the native platoon groups, instead pull them in a singles and then assign them a control group, otherwise they will clump together and get bushwacked by arty or a gunship.
Take advantage of kiting your tier one armor. Leo 2s, Challys, T80s, etc. have a range advantage on medium armor, by maintaining the range your top tier MBTs can chew up lesser tanks. However, make sure you husband them well though, at knife range a 50pt tank can pop your 200pt MBT.
Take armored CVs, VABs, Sultans, BRDM1s if its a Jeep CV some errant arty shot will smoke it and poof goes 200pts. Get rid of unarmored, CVs period.
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How do you sell units?
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How do you sell units?
You do not. Why do you think I run around trying to bushwhack Hinds with my M113s? It's certainly not because it's a good idea. (Though I can make it work.)
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How stable is this?
Thinking about buying it, but if it's as unstable as other Steam games, I won't waste my money...
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How stable is this?
Thinking about buying it, but if it's as unstable as other Steam games, I won't waste my money...
Stability problem sounds like your end.
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Indeed. Of the games I own on Steam, only one can be described as being somewhat unstable (Naval War Arctic Circle), everything else (this included) has been rock solid.
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There are still known instabilties of Total War: Shogun 2 and Civ5, which crash rather often...well, was thinking about stomping my harddrive etc anyways.
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Can anyone who owns this please confirm if they removed the additional DRM (Starforce supposedly) by now or whether it's still there?
Thanks :)
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There are still known instabilties of Total War: Shogun 2 and Civ5, which crash rather often...well, was thinking about stomping my harddrive etc anyways.
It's a total war game, of course its going to have crashes...
Empire was nearly unplayable and it didn't required steam to do that.
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RAM.
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Downloading right now...if it doesen't work, I'll reinstall the whole Windows7 thing anew.
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Wont help if I'm right :P
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Are you trying to tell me, that 4gb RAM are not enough for Civ5?^^
Wargame works just fine, but I'm stuck in the third mission and did a terrible thing...
I researched the Leopard2 in the armory...but as I cannot use it...can I rechoose the points after playing the second mission?
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4GB RAM isn't enough for Civ5, but I was more talking about it being faulty, you may want to memtest it.
How do I know 4GB of RAM isn't enough for Civ5?
....Cuz 6GB RAM isn't enough for Civ5 :P Not properly!
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Well, QD, you may want to consider that just saying "RAM" isn't exactly the most clear way of getting your point across :P
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Guess I screwed the game :P
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFSPfq2SlUk&feature=player_embedded
whoa.
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Shut up.
And take.
My money.