[The E]

Yeah, I guess the Shivans were basically waiting for the Sanctuary to either die, or make some move that would betray their position. There was no rush.

[General Battuta]

Of course there's also the possibility that Norbert's correct and Shivan behavior had somehow changed in such a way as to make the Sanctuary no longer a priority. Interesting possibility.

[The E]

True.

[-Norbert-]

Okay.....
Interresting how the pretext to my actual question sparked off another interresting debate 

What I really wanted to talk/speculate/ask about was, why the Shivans - knowing they came from another universe - were so dead set about destroying the 14th battlegroup rather than allowing them to return.
Because the Shivans didn't concentrate their firepower mainly on the Sanctuary I think the GTVA ships were the real reason for their attacks, but why destroy them instead of letting them go back to were they came from?

Did they know about the orders and thus considered them destroyers.
With Admiral Bei being at least somewhat "Nagari-capable" he might have unintentionally broadcast his thoughts to the Shivans, thus drawing their ire.

[-Sara-]

1) I think the moment Bei shot that lone fighter in Sol, that was a declaration of conflict. AFAIK that fighter did not cause harm did it? It might have simply been deactivated, but that does not have to be true. Maybe the Shivans tried to bait the humans, seeing what they would do, like a forum troll.

2) It might be that the Shivans were not aware of the 14th battlegroup being from another dimension until later, possibly if the Vishans spoke to them offscreen.

3) They may also have feared Bei, it's not impossible the Shivans have prophecies of their own. Bei might have fit in there, for all we know the Shivans may not WANT another species to replace the Brahams of old. Maybe they are even responsible for the Brahams death themselves, having played cloak and dagger all along and keeping face to the Vishans only as long as it serves their purpose, having lost their interest and genuine intent on keeping the balance long ago. People change, so why not an ancient species of destroyers which could have lost their trust in the concept of balance.

[Shivan Hunter]

So. Since this hasn't been posted in for two days, I'd like to bring up another topic. The "deepness" that's mentioned several times in BP text.

Off the top of my head, there are two references to this "deepness":

The Jester was fixated upon something he called a ‘deepness’ which he could not describe.

Your creators blundered once, and in doing so, unleashed the deepness that stalks the cold roads of the cosmos.

This I can only assume to be the "larger problem" of which the Shivans are a symptom. That part of the Ken mission appears to me to be a Vishnan (or, the Vishnans) talking to a Shivan (or, the Shivans), implying that the Shivans' creators (possibly the Brahmans?) also created a hostile force or entity, presumably more powerful than the Vishnans or Shivans.

I can only assume that even if we don't directly fight this... whatever it is, it will become important in BP3 and possibly WiH2 (oh god if there's another cliffhanger...).

===EPILEPTIC TREES===

Project Nagari also refers to the "Broken Trinity" the Shivans are so obsessed with. I can only assume that means the Brahmans are gone or otherwise incapacitated and the Shivans and Vishnans are searching for a species to replace them. Based on the Universal Truth dialogue, The Vishnans think Humanity/Vasudanity have the potential to "ascend" in this fashion, and the Shivans do not. The Ken mission also tells us that the Shivans are abandoning the "ancient design"- possibly the Shivan/Vishnan/Brahman trinity itself?

Wild speculation: The Brahmans are the Shivans' creators, as possibly implied by the Ken mission, and also the accidental creators of this "deepness", which turned on them and destroyed them. The Shivans and Vishnans think that if another species can take the place of the Brahmans, they can fight the deepness.

===FURTHER QUESTIONS===

If this deepness is so powerful, why have we not seen it or its effects yet?

Possible answers: It has no interest in such lowly races as Humanity or Vasudanity. Or, it fights the Shivans and Vishnans on some other "plane of existence" (omfg that term is so overused) which we cannot observe.

If this deepness is so powerful, why would Humanity or Vasudanity be able to make a difference at all?

Possible answers: We can't, and the Shivans and Vishnans are simply grasping at straws. Or, we possess a certain mentality (creation) that the Shivans and Vishnans lack entirely.

===LOGICAL, IRREFUTABLE CONCLUSION===

BP3 is going to be frakking awesome.

[EDIT] removed dumb color from post >.>

[-Norbert-]

Your post reminds me of the boundary wardens form the book "wizards first rule".
These people keep others away from the boundary, not to protect them, but to make sure the things inside the boundary don't get enough food to grow stronger.

Maybe that's the reason why the Shivans wipe out all those species, because the deepness can somehow use them to get stronger?
On the other hand that species could be benevolent and give the humans and vasudans the technology necessary to hold their own against the Shivans, which would naturally make them enemies of the Shivans (because they help their enemies) and the Vishnans (because giving a species technology for free is upsetting the balance).

On a completely differnt sidenote:
Did the 14th battlegroup collect any Vishnan debrie and bring it over to "our" universe by any chance?
Considering what happened to the Vishnan ships after the Keeper was destroyed, they might even have been able to collect a few fighters and bombers intact, if they had the time for it between the fight with the Sathanas and the track for the Sol jumpnode.

[-Sara-]

I'm guessing they got the hell out when the Sathanas showed up and warped out. If there's one of them, they know very well there might be more of them (I always held the theory that the Shivans drew all the Sathanas Juggy's seen in Capella out of different subspace dimensions, for whatever purpose).

I think the deepness is the void, the end of all that excists in space and time. An anomaly or consequence which occus unless a balance is struck with a triad, not like the 'Transcend' story but more metaphorical, the result of species wiping eachother out or more seriously the Shivans doing that job entirely for them. With nothing left to destroy or preserve, the Shivans and Vishans have no more role and probably cease to excist. So the Shivans are too stuborn maybe to realize that or it is simply in their nature to destroy unless a creator keeps them in check. If the latter is the case, the Shivans are like a kid in a candy store, no-one to stop them and they might not feel like returning to a triad unless it is forced upon them.

[NGTM-1R]

The Deepness theory sounds suspiciously like the typical 4th Race theory of what the Shivans are a symptom of.

...I'm pretty sure BP team's not going with an answer that creatively bankrupt.

[-Norbert-]

I'm guessing they got the hell out when the Sathanas showed up and warped out.

Erm.... if the Sathanas jumps in already in range they won't have that chance. Remember the Psamtik!
About two seconds after the jumppoint opened, the first ship will be down. If events are scripted well, the Sath won't bother to shoot the already dead but still exploding ship again and so about 8 seconds after arrival, the Sath will annihilate the next ship.
That is assuming the Sath will use all four of it's beams on the same target. I havn't tried it out, but I could imagine firing two at each destroyer might surfice to take both down in a single salvo, then a second salvo to take down four corvettes and all that in less than 15 seconds.

[ssmit132]

I'm guessing they got the hell out when the Sathanas showed up and warped out.

Actually it hadn't been 10 minutes when the Sathanas arrived, had it (well, it depends how long it takes you to take out the Lucifer, but it usually doesn't take that long, I think)? That's how long it takes for the engines to recharge. So they couldn't have left straight away.

[-Sara-]

As soon as possible ofcourse.

[Scotty]

I'm guessing they got the hell out when the Sathanas showed up and warped out.

Erm.... if the Sathanas jumps in already in range they won't have that chance. Remember the Psamtik!
About two seconds after the jumppoint opened, the first ship will be down. If events are scripted well, the Sath won't bother to shoot the already dead but still exploding ship again and so about 8 seconds after arrival, the Sath will annihilate the next ship.
That is assuming the Sath will use all four of it's beams on the same target. I havn't tried it out, but I could imagine firing two at each destroyer might surfice to take both down in a single salvo, then a second salvo to take down four corvettes and all that in less than 15 seconds.

This is all based on several kinda fallacial assumptions.

1) the Sathanas jumps in perfectly enough to be in range of every single ship it is hostile to, but far enough a way that none can maneuver out of the way.

2) The Sath will hit with all beams on the first salvo.  Play Bearbating again, and sometimes the Phoenicia, a comparatively flimsy Hecate, will sometimes survive with hull left over (not often, but enough).  Titans and Raynors are both more heavily armored, and hardly likely to just keel over like you want to think.

3) You're straight up ignoring that Sath vs. pair of destroyers has already been played out, and the destroyers won without any losses outside of fighter craft.

[General Battuta]

I'm guessing they got the hell out when the Sathanas showed up and warped out.

Erm.... if the Sathanas jumps in already in range they won't have that chance. Remember the Psamtik!
About two seconds after the jumppoint opened, the first ship will be down. If events are scripted well, the Sath won't bother to shoot the already dead but still exploding ship again and so about 8 seconds after arrival, the Sath will annihilate the next ship.
That is assuming the Sath will use all four of it's beams on the same target. I havn't tried it out, but I could imagine firing two at each destroyer might surfice to take both down in a single salvo, then a second salvo to take down four corvettes and all that in less than 15 seconds.

This is all based on several kinda fallacial assumptions.

1) the Sathanas jumps in perfectly enough to be in range of every single ship it is hostile to, but far enough a way that none can maneuver out of the way.

2) The Sath will hit with all beams on the first salvo.  Play Bearbating again, and sometimes the Phoenicia, a comparatively flimsy Hecate, will sometimes survive with hull left over (not often, but enough). 

I think that's because it's guardianed.

[Scotty]

If it hits with three beams, yeah, if it wasn't guardianed, it would die anyway.  However, I've seen it miss with two beams, and the Phoenicia jumped out with something like 8 hull left, which is above the guardian threshold.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Funny. I've never seen it die on my watch. Then again, I've never seen the Sathanas hit it with all four beams; it's always three. The Phoenicia always jumps out between 4-1% hull.

[The E]

Play on a difficulty that is greater then Very Easy...

[Scotty]

Guardian threshold is 4%, I think.  On higher difficulties, if it hits with all four, it'll skip right past it to zero and the Phoenicia will die.  If it only hits with two (on Medium, mind), I've seen it jump out with 8%.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Play on a difficulty that is greater then Very Easy...

I get it even on Insane, without ~ + SHIFT + I'ing the Phoenicia.

[-Norbert-]

1) the Sathanas jumps in perfectly enough to be in range of every single ship it is hostile to

The Shivans occasionally did precicion jump in FS2, so it isn't that unlikely.

but far enough a way that none can maneuver out of the way.

Please show me any capital ship that can go from a standstill to a speed high enough to escape the Sath forward firing arc in less than 10 seconds!

2) The Sath will hit with all beams on the first salvo.  Play Bearbating again, and sometimes the Phoenicia, a comparatively flimsy Hecate, will sometimes survive with hull left over (not often, but enough).  Titans and Raynors are both more heavily armored, and hardly likely to just keel over like you want to think.

As was explained before, that ship is scripted to survive, even though that doesn't always activate in time safe the Pheonicia.

3) You're straight up ignoring that Sath vs. pair of destroyers has already been played out, and the destroyers won without any losses outside of fighter craft. Tongue

No I'm not ignoring it, but it seems you are ignoring some important facts about that mission.
First and most important, the Sath was stripped of it's heavy beams before it came in range. Oh btw. I just remembered something. One time I was too slow and the Orestes was hit by a single BFRed once. And it was down to about 30% hull, so yeah, two BFRed hit will kill a Raynor for sure.
Second, the destroyers were facing the Sathanas. If it jumps in on top, on the sides or behind them, they'll have to turn before they can fire their main beams. The thing is, it's unlikely they survive long enough to do so.
Third, even when facing the de-toothed Sathanas from the start, they still needed a bit of time to destory it. I don't remember exactly but let's say two minutes, though I'm pretty sure it was way more.
Do you seriously beliefe that they can survive several minutes in the forward firing arc of a Sath?

Edit:
I just tried a little FRED experiment. I put a Sath against a Raynor, Titan and Orion refit and was even nice enough to let the GTVA face toward the Sath.
Even without any scripts the Sath fired two beams each at the Raynor and Titan, destroying them in her opening salvo, though I underestimated the lifetime of the Sath beams... The big exploding started at 12 seconds into the mission.
Because it was unscripted, the Sath continued to fire at the exploding ships and so the Orion refit was only destroyed 48 seconds into the engagement.

Edit2:
With a little bit of scripting (like the Sath opeing up before even clearing the jumppoint) the whole battle was over in 20 seconds....
If you'd like I can attach the mission file, so you can see for yourself.