Author Topic: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)  (Read 26759 times)

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
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AUTOMATED WARNING: INTERNAL TEMPERATURE AT 27,000 DEGREES. DEPLOYING DISASTER BEACON.

Yeah, that can be disconfortable ^^.

 

Offline ssmit132

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
...and yet there were somehow still bodies for Levi to see... :confused:

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
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The gamma radiation itself doesn't cause immediate damage unless it is so dense that it transfers huge amounts of energy into nearby materials and vaporises it, but due to the penetrating properties of gamma radiation this would require quite a massive yield, and most of the energy would still escape.
Considering that the hulls are made to block cosmic radiation and withstand nuklear weapons (like the torpedoes) wouldn't that mean they aren't easily penetrated by gamma rays?
So unless they found a way to deflect radiation away from the hulls, wouldn't that mean instead of going through without causing harm, those gamma rays instead heat up the inside of those armor plates?

Apart from possibly making those plates softer till they can cool off again (depends on the material I guess) that should also raise the ships internal temperature causing the crew some discomfort and reducing the effectiveness of the cooling systems for beams and reactors.

Also antimatter tipped warheads sound like a shaped blast to me, so in front of the impact site there would be intense energy released, probably enough to vapourise the hull there. And if that material get's into the corridors of the ship, it'd be rather catastrophic I think.


Yes, that would work - for all the ships in close proximity. Would be interesting to do the math on how much gamma radiation would be needed for hull plating to absorb enough energy to start significantly heating up, though. It'll cause radiation sickness long before that happens, I would wager, but don't take my word for it, it's just my intuition.

The problem is, gamma rays spread evenly from a point source, and their effectiveness reduces in inverse square of distance. The even distribution means that at reasonably short distance, they won't be doing much damage at all (at least immediate damage - they may cause radiation sickness, but that doesn't immediately put a warship down like compromised hull structure will.

If you instead convert most of the energy from the reaction into kinetic energy (assumign you can do this) and send shrapnel from the blast site, you get a much more "coarse" distribution of possible damage - but at the same time, the damage delivery is more efficient. The probability of getting hit by pieces of shrapnel will decrease in the inverse square of distance, but individual pieces of shrapnel don't lose their initial kinetic energy, which means the individual pieces of shrapnel retain their effectiveness regardless if distance, unlike a free gamma burst.


Or, let me put it this way.

Let's say you have a free gamma burst of a 0.1 kg anti-hydrogen warhead. Assuming a clean conversion from energy to gamma rays, you will be getting 9x1015 Joules of gamma radiation, spectrum spikes at 511 keV (electron-positron-annihilation spike) and 125, 307 and 530 MeV spikes for proton-antiproton annihilations. This is about 2.151 Megatons of TNT. This energy might sound like a lot (and it is, considering it's from 100 grams of antihydrogen), but let's break it up into what sort of effect it would actually have.

The higher the energy of photons, the more penetrating they are, which means their linear attenuation coefficient is reduced when they go through the same thickness of absorber. If you have, d metres of hull plating at attenuation coefficient α, you could relatively easily calculate the linear attenuation for each gamma spectrum spike and thus determine the percentage of absorption of pass-through gamma radiation:

I = I0 e-αd

Where I0 is the intensity of radiation when it impacts the absorbing hull plate, which can be pretty trivially calculated if you know the distance from the annihilation site (and if you want, you can just deal with energies instead of power and intensity, since the time of annihilation reaction is pretty short).

I have no idea of the attenuation factors of spaceship hull material, but they'll be different for each gamma wave length. However, let us generously assume that the hull plating absorbs 80% of the gamma radiation.

The energy released in 0.1 kg antimatter warhead is, like said, about 9x1015 Joules. At 1000 metres distance, the amount of energy passing through one square metre of space is

9x1015 J / 4 π (1000 m)2 = 716197244 J m-2

Which is about 716 megajoules of energy per square metre.

For comparison, if you have a ton of water ice at 273.16 K temperature (solid form), it takes 333 megajoules to thaw it to 273.16 K temperature liquid. But if you had a cube of water ice with mass 1000 kg, at 1000 metres from the annihilation site, it would probably not melt all the way because the attenuation factor of water isn't too high; much of the gamma radiation would pass through.

So that's the practical effect of 0.1 kg annihilation warhead at one kilometre distance. If you replace the ice cube with humans, they'll heat up a bit and contract severe radiation sickness, but I doubt it would have radical effect on ship hull plating. Closer to the blast site, sure, but 1000 metres is relatively small distance even in FreeSpace.




Now, let's look at another scenario: let's say 80% of the annihilation energy is converted into kinetic energy of shrapnel pieces.

To be ambitious, let's make fragmentation shell with following configuration:

-Total mass 12566371 kg
-Mass of individual fragments on average 1 kg.

80% of 9x1015 Joules is 7.2x1015 Joules.

That as kinetic energy given to mass of 12 566 371 kg yields a velocity of 33.85 km/s.

Each fragment has thus velocity of 33.85 km/s and, unsurprisingly, kinetic energy of 572.9 MJ (which is 80% of the radiation of gamma rays passing through the one square meter area.

You might wonder why I picked such a random-looking value for the amount of shrapnel particles. Well, the reason is that the surface area of a sphere with radius of 1000 metres is 12 566 370.6 square metres, and when you evenly distribute 12566371 shrapnel particles on that area, you should get about one shrapnel piece per square metre, which is important in comparing the efficacy of this setup compared to the free gamma ray setup.

We've established that there will be about 12.5 million 1 kg pieces of shrapnel flying at almost 34 kilometres per second, and by average at distance of 1000 metres you will get one of them per one square metre of surface area.


Now you'll remember that the effect of gamma radiation on a block of ice was quite... lacking in destructive power. By contrast, I don't think anyone has any difficulties about what happens to a block of ice when it's impacted with one kilogram mass moving at 34 km/s.


Similarly, a projectile with 34 km/s is much more efficient against space ship hulls than an even spread of gamma radiation. Against organics, sure, you'll achieve a high mortality rate with induced radiation sickness, which may be an interesting way of acquiring ships relatively intact; gamma radiation does not irradiate materials like neutron radiation does, so in a way this would be much better way of dealing with space ship crews without causing excessive damage to the ship itself.

But, in open combat this would not work. The crew would stay operational for some while after the gamma burst. That's why as a pure weapon, the shrapnel based one would function better.



Any thoughts? Spot any calculation errors?
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
...and yet there were somehow still bodies for Levi to see... :confused:

That disaster beacon was only from one ship. The crew spaces are compartmentalized anyway.

Don't believe the myth that a matter/antimatter blast converts 100% to destructive force. You lose about half the blast energy to neutrinos. (If the neutrinos were crazy dense enough, they could cause breakdown of nearby fission weapons, hilariously enough - rendering nearby nukes inoperable.)


I don't see neutrinos involved, really.

le nooooooob  :p

Proton-antiproton pair goes to charged and neutral pions. The neutrals go right into gammas but the charged ones make it a little ways and decay into muons and neutrinos; the muons in turn give you electrons and more neutrinos.

Thus half the blast to neutrinos, even with absolutely perfect particle-antiparticle mixing and collision.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
I see a lot of possible paths for a proton-antiproton annihilation, and most of them don't include charged pions.

Let's assume that the predominant reaction is the one that results in a pion and anti-pion, and their further decay.*

In this scenario, yes:

proton + antiproton -> pion+ + pion- + gamma ray

pion- -> muon + muon neutrino
pion+ -> antimuon + muon neutrino

muon -> electron + electron neutrino
antimuon -> positron + electron neutrino


So basically in this case we do have two muon neutrinos and two electron neutrinos (though since they can oscillate into each other the specific type doesn't really matter all that much).

The problem is determining how much of the energy is actually carried away by neutrinos. I'm having difficulty finding actual experimental data on how much energy bleed goes into them, but on a gut feeling I doubt it's as much as half of the energy, considering neutrinos being the lightweights of standard model.

But ok, let's accept that the total mass sets just an upper limit for the (useable) annihilation energy yield. This is, after all, strictly academic exercise in determining the effects of future space warfare weapons...

...right? :nervous:


*This apparently assumes that the proton and antiproton are at rest (have very little kinetic energy at the beginning). This may be the case initially for the first reactions, but the hydrogen - antihydrogen mixture would rapidly form a high-energy plasma, though I hesitate to speculate on how much collision energy the particles may have in this situation.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 08:48:13 am by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline Enigmatic Entity

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
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*tear*


*Has to demonstrate why he still owns his title...*


I bet you get 100%  :p

Me? 58  :nervous: Really, can we please have an :embarrassed: smiley?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 07:53:49 am by Enigmatic Entity »
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
65% but there were flaws in the questions.

In question 12 I answered that I couldn't answer it, but that was not exactly the right answer because the calculation is not defined (div by zero). Maybe that's the right answer to give, maybe not. And in question 29 the area below the curve is technically infinite since they didn't specify a lower limit to it (though I suspect they meant to ask the area limited by the curve and the X-axis and answered according to that...).

Oh and I plugged a few questions straight to wolfram alpha and said I used a calculator. Which it is (a symbolic one).
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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
well given how antimatter was portrayed in Angels and Demons, it takes an incredibly small amount to create a large explosion... but then again that was in a atmosphere so...

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
well given how antimatter was portrayed in Angels and Demons, it takes an incredibly small amount to create a large explosion... but then again that was in a atmosphere so...

That was...not a great source.

Also I loved how the critical evidence in the book was stored on a camcorder, which still worked after an antimatter detonation, which would have caused an enormous EMP

also I like how their solution to the imminent blast is to take it up over the city where it can airburst and be more devastating

also

Okay I just thought that part was dumb.

 

Offline Hellzed

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
OH ! WE ARE THREATENED BY AN ANTIMATTER BOMB !
...
Let's make it a thermobaric device, and have fun !

 
Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
Just to add my 2 cents worth, since I love these scientifically based discussions that pop up:

The gamma burst suggested above, if unshielded, would easily surpass the 1000 REM level that is generally considered lethal.  However, after doing a few calculations a 30 cm thick layer of lead would reduce the dosage rate to just .006 mREM per hour if considering a detonation like the one above takes place every second for an hour.  Granted that is a pretty hefty chunk of lead, but almost any dense material would have a similar effect.  I would not be surprised if there was not a similar thickness of hull plating in use on capital ships in the freespace universe.  However, I will concede that there is, as far as I know, no canonical support for this assumption.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
Well, it's sort of an extrapolation at best, but the fact that ships routinely get hit with nukes and don't seem to worry about crew radiation levels may be telling.

also are you a cameron class battlecruiser

 

Offline Raiden

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
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AUTOMATED WARNING: INTERNAL TEMPERATURE AT 27,000 DEGREES. DEPLOYING DISASTER BEACON.

Yeah, that can be disconfortable ^^.
The first time I went through the campaign, that part really hit me. And the subsequent yelling to 'cut them out of the net' honestly had me in a contemplative mood afterwards.
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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
perhaps ;7....but when I grow up I want to be a Leviathan.

 

Offline esarai

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
I've always tried to reason away the absurdly large detonation yields of FS weapons with the scale of FS starships allowing for absurdly large amounts of armor.  They are so large that the amount of armor on one must be absurd.  Something on the order of +10m worth of molybdenum or other heavy metal plating.  

That's a three-plus story building worth of solid metal.

Holy crap.
<Nuclear>   truth: the good samaritan actually checked for proof of citizenship and health insurance
<Axem>   did anyone catch jesus' birth certificate?
<Nuclear>   and jesus didnt actually give the 5000 their fish...he gave it to the romans and let it trickle down
<Axem>and he was totally pro tax breaks
<Axem>he threw out all those tax collectors at the temple
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
And they could have multiple decks of that stuff as NGTM-1R (I think) first expostulated. Compartments and crap.

Hard to kill. No wonder they're slow.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
also are you a cameron class battlecruiser

I guess he isn't. :(

I really don't see either of his DropShips around either.
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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
Well, I seem to have mixed up my assumptions a bit, as it turns out, the main products of antimatter-matter annihilation are basically always gamma photons and particles that themselves wouldn't add much to an explosion, mostly pions that quickly decay as it seems. Shaped antimatter charges that "eat" the hull of the ship as they react seem most effective to me.

Although I still couldn't find my original source, I remember once reading a really well written popular science text about everything related matter/antimatter annihilations, but it could have been offline...

As for spaceship armor - I wonder if they use super-heavy elements. You know - the ones that have the magic number of nuclei and reach the island of stability. It would seem feasible for those elements to be useable as alloys for spaceships, and as long as we cannot produce them, they are mysterious enough to serve as an interesting bit of science fiction material.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
also are you a cameron class battlecruiser

I guess he isn't. :(

I really don't see either of his DropShips around either.

He said he was.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Apocalypse Scale (holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit)
I kind of feel ashamed that I'm the one with the physics bachelor's degree, and yet Battman is throwing around elementary particle names I've never even heard of.  Can't you confine your 1337ness to a single branch of study? :p