[Apollo]

the whole point of the war is to stop any influence of ubuntu from reaching the GTVA population.  if the GTVA enters into an alliance with the UEF then ubuntu will remain whole and the inevitable tourism/immigration between the two will allow ubuntu to spread beyond Sol, worst case scenario for the GTVA.

If the GTVA and UEF form an alliance but block tourism/migration/interaction between ship crews then the GTVA public will want to know why they can't go back to Earth after so many promises.

While Ubuntu would probably spread beyond Sol, it wouldn't be able to take over the entire GTVA. In any case, the GTVA already wants to incorporate some aspects of Ubuntu, so I don't see how that would be an especially damaging thing.

EDIT: And those 3 Solarises would significantly boost their military power, although they might stay in Sol if the GTVA and UEF formed an alliance but remained distinct organizations.

[headdie]

it dosnt need to take over, just expose the population to a different way of thinking

[An4ximandros]

I just realized the Shivan incursions seems to work like "The War on Terror."

 Constant threat of the homeland from an Opposing Force (one in this case you can be sure will never be beaten) so defense is prioritized over the happiness of citizens who get more and more angry at the government which every day does more questionable things in the name of "security" such as starting a war with a non-hostile power and feeding propaganda about how it is necessary for protection from the real enemy.

[Apollo]

it dosnt need to take over, just expose the population to a different way of thinking

So? The GTVA's way isn't working, and everyone knows that. Different isn't always bad.

I just realized the Shivan incursions seems to work like "The War on Terror."

Constant threat of the homeland from an Opposing Force (one in this case you can be sure will never be beaten) so defense is prioritized over the happiness of citizens who get more and more angry at the government which every day does more questionable things in the name of "security" such as starting a war with a non-hostile power and feeding propaganda about how it is necessary for protection from the real enemy.

I agree. The GTVA's spending and policies are like an extreme version of what's happening in the US right now: They're prioritizing military spending at the expense of their economy, and they're suppressing their population in the name of security.

When you think about it, this is pretty stupid, since were the Shivans to deploy their entire fleet (40+ Sathanas juggernauts) there's nothing the GTVA could possibly do, short of collapsing jump nodes.

EDIT: You know, this is starting to feel like a real life political discussion.

[headdie]

it dosnt need to take over, just expose the population to a different way of thinking

So? The GTVA's way isn't working, and everyone knows that. Different isn't always bad.

I would agree, but 18 years means that the junior politicians that had their worst nightmares served to them on a platter by the shivans are now likely the senior politicians and most of their mentors will still be alive and giving them advice.  So the policy decisions being made are being made in fear of the fact that the Shivans will come again and if we dont hold them then we will be wiped out without remorse, without surrender and the first war taught them that the collapse will take weeks tops.  To these politicians the only answer is to build the military up so that it can hold the line and that means maximum military spending, if the population grumble then show them a image of a shivan and say "we are spending this to protect you from these, if these come and we are not ready then your latest generation entertainment system will be worthless scrap in your dead hand, your latest tech hospital will be the rubble that makes your grave, there is no hiding from them we must stand firm or we will die"

[LordPomposity]

EDIT: You know, this is starting to feel like a real life political discussion.

Whenever I'm tempted to view the GTVA's behavior as an unlikely contrivance to drive the plot, I imagine Dick Cheney running the Security Council. Then everything seems realistic again.

[headdie]

EDIT: You know, this is starting to feel like a real life political discussion.

try this one from the start, you get politics, psychology, psy ops, theology, economics, military tactics and a bunch of other stuff in there

[Aesaar]

I just realized the Shivan incursions seems to work like "The War on Terror."

 Constant threat of the homeland from an Opposing Force (one in this case you can be sure will never be beaten) so defense is prioritized over the happiness of citizens who get more and more angry at the government which every day does more questionable things in the name of "security" such as starting a war with a non-hostile power and feeding propaganda about how it is necessary for protection from the real enemy.

  The fundamental difference is that a terrorist attack might kill a few thousand people, but the main damage is psychological.  The Shivans are the opposite.  The psychological damage is there, but it's a mere add-on to the incredible destruction they cause.  Moreover, a terrorist attack happens, and it's over.  The Shivans will not stop unless you completely prevent them from reaching you.  Terrorism does not cause an apocalypse.  The Shivans do.

Apollo's comparison to the modern US is somewhat flawed.  The GTVA is best compared to Israel without Judaism to unify it, and without an enemy amenable to compromise or diplomacy.  They trade liberty for security, but they're right to.  A misstep could mean annihilation.

So? The GTVA's way isn't working, and everyone knows that. Different isn't always bad.

The GTVA's way does work.  Not well, but it's more or less the only option.  Ubuntu can't coexist with Shivans, and Terrans don't think like Vasudans, meaning their way can't be readily adopted.  Most of the GTVA's problems can be traced back to economic difficulties, and the UEF economic model has nothing to do with Ubuntu, so can be adapted with no risk.  If it wasn't for the post-Capella depression, I'd expect the GTVA would look a lot like the Jovian republic.

I expect that in the core GTVA systems (where the effects of the economic depression are less pronouced), Capella might have thrown the population even further behind the military, for precisely the reason headdie mentioned.  On the frontier, people might think the GTVA is useless, but in the core, they probably look at it as their only hope.

[AtomicClucker]

EDIT: You know, this is starting to feel like a real life political discussion.

try this one from the start, you get politics, psychology, psy ops, theology, economics, military tactics and a bunch of other stuff in there

Why I love BluePlanet in a nutshell.

[Apollo]

I just realized the Shivan incursions seems to work like "The War on Terror."

 Constant threat of the homeland from an Opposing Force (one in this case you can be sure will never be beaten) so defense is prioritized over the happiness of citizens who get more and more angry at the government which every day does more questionable things in the name of "security" such as starting a war with a non-hostile power and feeding propaganda about how it is necessary for protection from the real enemy.

  The fundamental difference is that a terrorist attack might kill a few thousand people, but the main damage is psychological.  The Shivans are the opposite.  The psychological damage is there, but it's a mere add-on to the incredible destruction they cause.  Moreover, a terrorist attack happens, and it's over.  The Shivans will not stop unless you completely prevent them from reaching you.  Terrorism does not cause an apocalypse.  The Shivans do.

Apollo's comparison to the modern US is somewhat flawed.  The GTVA is best compared to Israel without Judaism to unify it, and without an enemy amenable to compromise or diplomacy.  They trade liberty for security, but they're right to.  A misstep could mean annihilation.

Now that I think about it, that's probably a better comparison.

So? The GTVA's way isn't working, and everyone knows that. Different isn't always bad.

The GTVA's way does work.  Not well, but it's more or less the only option.  Ubuntu can't coexist with Shivans, and Terrans don't think like Vasudans, meaning their way can't be readily adopted.  Most of the GTVA's problems can be traced back to economic difficulties, and the UEF economic model has nothing to do with Ubuntu, so can be adapted with no risk.  If it wasn't for the post-Capella depression, I'd expect the GTVA would look a lot like the Jovian republic.

I expect that in the core GTVA systems (where the effects of the economic depression are less pronouced), Capella might have thrown the population even further behind the military, for precisely the reason headdie mentioned.  On the frontier, people might think the GTVA is useless, but in the core, they probably look at it as their only hope.

Ubuntu is a program of secular, non-denominational, scientifically driven social, industrial, and political advancement. It is allied with both technological transhumanism and elements of post-Isolation philosophy and spirituality.

It is not a state-sponsored religion, a cult, or even an ideological/economic complex in the way that Communism was. Economically, it practices sophisticated neocapitalism rather than socialism, though it guarantees certain services to all citizens, including education.

The Ubuntu Council of Elders presents itself as mankind's first long-term steering committee, capable of setting imperatives for decades, centuries, or millennia to come.

The UEF economic model comes directly from Ubuntu.

The GTVA's policies are not working right, and the GTVA knows that, which is why they're planning to use some aspects of Ubuntu once they defeat the UEF.

Again, I don't think the GTVA's citizens will be so captivated by Ubuntu that they'll forget what the Shivans did to them. If Ubuntu's peaceful aspects can't even fully take over 1 solar system, I doubt they could take over the entire GTVA. It's just contradicts human nature too much to achieve that degree of power outside of Sol. The GTVA would do well to stop wasting their resources in the war with the UEF (although it may be too late at this point).

While the GTVA's political repression and military overspending is understandable, their justifications for invading Sol are very shaky. Not only are they attacking a civilization that would be happy to coexist with them, they're also losing warship assets, and more importantly, they're ruining the UEF's navy. Despite the limited range of their weapons, those 3 Solaris-class destroyers are superior to most of the GTVA's warships (including the Raynor), and they'll eventually have to destroy all three of them in order to take over Sol. The UEF's large numbers of frigates and high-performance strikecraft would also be useful, and the Alliance is going to have to destroy most of them, when if they hadn't attacked the UEF these ships would have been able to supplement their own forces.

[General Battuta]

I don't think you have the grounds to say the Solaris is tactically superior to the Raynor.

Would UEF forces be able to effectively supplement the GTVA outside of Sol?

[Apollo]

I don't think you have the grounds to say the Solaris is tactically superior to the Raynor.

I won't argue that with you; the Solaris is superior in the tables, but I understand that Blueplanet has a whole bunch of fluff rules that don't appear in the tables.

Would UEF forces be able to effectively supplement the GTVA outside of Sol?

Their relatively small numbers and different tactics would make this somewhat difficult, but I think they could still help to some extent.

[Aesaar]

Apollo: The UEF's economic model is based on educated leaders acting on information provided by complex simulations performed by ridiculously powerful supercomputers.  Essentially, it's limited psychohistory.  In many ways, it's a working control economy, and while it wouldn't work quite as well for the GTVA (on account of it being much bigger area wise, meaning more uncertainties), it would work without Ubuntu.  On Mars, Ubuntu is present, but not as prevalent as on Earth.  In the Jovian republic, however, it's not even close to dominant, and as a result, the Jovians probably resemble the GTVA more than they do Earth.  Yet their economy works just as well.

Like Battuta said, you can't flat-out say the Solaris is better than the GTVA destroyers.  What are you basing that statement on?  That the Solaris can kill a Raynor in a 1v1 fight?  Fine, but the Titan can kill a Solaris well outside of the Solaris' range, and can even do so at near point blank.  The Raynor is more capable of dealing damage without its beams than the Solaris is without its torpedoes (and both can and have been jammed).  GTVA ships all have more endurance than their UEF counterparts, without exception.  GTVA ships are much, much better suited to the tasks the GTVA designed them to perform.

In addition, ruining the UEF navy isn't that big of a deal.  There isn't really place for UEF ships in GTVA fleet doctrine, on account of their lower endurance, which stems from the fact that they were designed for operations in a system where resupply is never more than a 5 minute jump away.  I suggest you have a look through this thread for a more indepth discussion of this.

[CT27]

On the topic of the Vasudans:

I know there are probably dozens of theories/speculations on what's going on (and we won't find out for sure until WIH2), but is this a reasonable guess:?

Maybe the Emperor and Recamai sort of know they're being played, but they figure that it's a necessary 'evi'l for the long run.  In other words they may "want" to support the UEF morally, but they "need" the GTVA Terrans.

[Apollo]

Apollo: The UEF's economic model is based on educated leaders acting on information provided by complex simulations performed by ridiculously powerful supercomputers.  Essentially, it's limited psychohistory.  In many ways, it's a working control economy, and while it wouldn't work quite as well for the GTVA (on account of it being much bigger area wise, meaning more uncertainties), it would work without Ubuntu.  On Mars, Ubuntu is present, but not as prevalent as on Earth.  In the Jovian republic, however, it's not even close to dominant, and as a result, the Jovians probably resemble the GTVA more than they do Earth.  Yet their economy works just as well.

Ubuntu is partly a philosophy, but it's also a political and economic system, as the Security Council's dossier says. Therefore, adopting its economic policies would be adopting part of Ubuntu.

Like Battuta said, you can't flat-out say the Solaris is better than the GTVA destroyers.  What are you basing that statement on?  That the Solaris can kill a Raynor in a 1v1 fight?  Fine, but the Titan can kill a Solaris well outside of the Solaris' range, and can even do so at near point blank.  The Raynor is more capable of dealing damage without its beams than the Solaris is without its torpedoes (and both can and have been jammed).  GTVA ships all have more endurance than their UEF counterparts, without exception.  GTVA ships are much, much better suited to the tasks the GTVA designed them to perform.

The Solaris's Gattler Turrets collectively deal several thousand more points of DPS than the Raynor's Terpulse.

I can say the Solaris is better than the Hecate. You're correct in that I can't say the Solaris is better than the Raynor, but that's because I don't have access the Blueplanet's fluff rules. In the tables, the Solaris is clearly superior.

The Titan can beat the Solaris in a long-range engagement; it may or may not be able to in a point-blank engagement, depending on its positon (at some angles, the Titan will only be able to use two of its forward beams instead of all three). On the other hand, the Solaris can beat the Titan with minimal damage if it attacks it from the sides, while a Raynor would deal serious damage in a broadside engagement.

At long-range, GTVA destroyers are better, but at close-range, the Solaris can do a lot more damage.

In addition, ruining the UEF navy isn't that big of a deal.  There isn't really place for UEF ships in GTVA fleet doctrine, on account of their lower endurance, which stems from the fact that they were designed for operations in a system where resupply is never more than a 5 minute jump away.  I suggest you have a look through this thread for a more indepth discussion of this.

I hadn't considered that. Still, its possible that their endurance could be increased, and even if it can't I don't think the GTVA has the moral justification to kill that many people who are just trying to defend themselves (It's war, I know, but I don't think the GTVA should ever have declared war on Sol).

[Aesaar]

Ubuntu is partly a philosophy, but it's also a political and economic system, as the Security Council's dossier says. Therefore, adopting its economic policies would be adopting part of Ubuntu.

If you want to call every part of the UEF's government Ubuntu, fine, the economic model is part of Ubuntu, but it's a part that one that in no way relies on the cultural aspects and doesn't threaten GTVA stability at all.  Evidence: Ubuntu isn't an idea that's really taken hold in the Jovian Republic, but they happily use the economic model.

The Solaris's Gattler Turrets collectively deal several thousand more points of DPS than the Raynor's Terpulse.

A Gattler Turret deals 112.5 DPS (15dmg, 1 shot every .1s, 30 shots per burst, 1s between bursts).  The Solaris has 12 of them.  A TerPulse deals 455 DPS.  The Raynor has 7 turrets and it can still use its TerSlashBlues.

I invite you to try a Raynor vs. Solaris battle in a beam/torpedo jammed environment, broadside to broadside.  Tilt the Solaris if you want, since it has more Gattlers on top.  Having done many runs of this myself, I can tell you that the Raynor wins by a huge margin.

Note: The TerPulse doesn't have the Huge flag because it needs to be able to target fighters.  This should not be taken to mean it isn't capable of killing capships.  For the purposes of this test, you should add it.

Everyone please forgive this argument about tables.

I can say the Solaris is better than the Hecate. You're correct in that I can't say the Solaris is better than the Raynor, but that's because I don't have access the Blueplanet's fluff rules. In the tables, the Solaris is clearly superior.

The Titan can beat the Solaris in a long-range engagement; it may or may not be able to in a point-blank engagement, depending on its positon (at some angles, the Titan will only be able to use two of its forward beams instead of all three). On the other hand, the Solaris can beat the Titan with minimal damage if it attacks it from the sides, while a Raynor would deal serious damage in a broadside engagement.

At long-range, GTVA destroyers are better, but at close-range, the Solaris can do a lot more damage.

You are correct in saying the Solaris better than the Hecate.  Again, as long as you don't consider logistics.  In the thread I linked, I mention the possibility of using what Solarises remain as fighter bases and shock jumpers, but that's the extent of their potential after the war, IMO. 

On the Titan: you're quite right.  The sheer amount of scenarios possible in war mean just saying one is flat-out better than the other is impossible.  Despite my fondness for looking at tables, they're only a starting point.  Battuta once said that the Atreus, which Steele has been tweaking in preparation for fighting a Solaris in a deathmatch, seems ridiculously overpowered when actually performing at peak capacity.

I hadn't considered that. Still, its possible that their endurance could be increased, and even if it can't I don't think the GTVA has the moral justification to kill that many people who are just trying to defend themselves (It's war, I know, but I don't think the GTVA should ever have declared war on Sol).

WiH puts a huge amount of emphasis on moral ambiguity.  Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong.  It's why you have a large amount of GTVA supporters among the fanbase.  The GTVA had their reasons to declare war.  They're good ones.  Perhaps it wasn't morally right, but when the continued existence of humanity is at risk, morality becomes trivial.  Survival is more important.

[MatthTheGeek]

the GTVA keeps saying that they are unable to accept war as the only solution for the Shivans (which it obviously is);

1) Plz2quote for the GTVA ever saying the UEF is unable to accept war as a solution to the Shivans. The fact they built a huge fleet of frigates, as well as three destroyers and a reserve of fleet bombers that has always felt utterly unnecessary for them, proves otherwise.

2) Where has it ever been said in the BP lore that war was obviously the only solution to the Shivans ? *cough*sekretProject*cough*, *cough*contingencyMorpheus*cough*

While Ubuntu would probably spread beyond Sol, it wouldn't be able to take over the entire GTVA.

Could you PLEASE read the FAQ instead of arguing about stuff you don't know about ?

The GTVA's way isn't working, and everyone knows that.

Proof that it isn't working ? Last time I checked, the GTVA's way successfully repelled two Shivan invasions and ensured the survival of humanity until now. If that is 'not working', I don't know what is.

When you think about it, this is pretty stupid, since were the Shivans to deploy their entire fleet (40+ Sathanas juggernauts) there's nothing the GTVA could possibly do, short of collapsing jump nodes.

That's exactly the main GTVA contingency. Collapsing nodes. Scorched earth policy. And if that fails, mass exodus.

You would be silly to think the GTVA expects to win a war against the Shivans with brute force alone. They have multiple contingencies to enact in order to nullify the threat before it gets out of control, and they need a powerful enough fleet to enact these contingencies, not to take down the Shivan head-on.

It's a gamble, but it's the only solution the GTVA knows of. Do you have a better solution to propose, that wouldn't involve vague feelings from a random Nagari'd pilot ? When we're talking about the survival of humanity, the GTVA wants hard facts, which is pretty understandable.

They trade liberty for security, but they're right to.

I'd rather say they have their reasons to, that make sense from their point of view with the data they have available. 'Right' is a little too absolute for my tastes, let's keep this thread objective please

I don't think the GTVA has the moral justification to kill that many people who are just trying to defend themselves (It's war, I know, but I don't think the GTVA should ever have declared war on Sol).

Please now, when the GTVA has to choose between the moral high ground and the survival of humanity (in their point of view, with the data they have available), it is obvious which one they're going to choose.

[Aesaar]

While Ubuntu would probably spread beyond Sol, it wouldn't be able to take over the entire GTVA.

Could you PLEASE read the FAQ instead of arguing about stuff you don't know about ?

I'd actually somewhat agree with him here.  Ubuntu hasn't even taken over all of Sol.  I keep on repeating this, but the Jovians have repeatedly been stated as being somewhat resistant to Ubuntu's cultural side.  The danger is from the ideological split that would almost certainly occur were it to spread into the politically fragile GTVA.  They'd be looking at yet another large-scale rebellion, which they just can't handle ATM.  Collapse would follow, leaving the pacifists in power.

I'd rather say they have their reasons to, that make sense from their point of view with the data they have available. 'Right' is a little too absolute for my tastes, let's keep this thread objective please

Point taken.

[MatthTheGeek]

Which is exactly what the FAQ talks about, and which is something Apollo has still not integrated.

[General Battuta]

Let's keep it civil, I like this thread!