Author Topic: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance  (Read 29866 times)

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Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
Can I just point out wrt beam and pulse weapons needing ammo as well that all they need is some homogeneous matter to heat into plasma; whilst details are obviously vague, a simple tank of compressed gas would probably suffice. Obviously it's a lot easier to store and replenish that than industrially-manufactured torpedoes and bullets which have to be stored in some sort of space-inefficient feed system.
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
Can I just point out wrt beam and pulse weapons needing ammo as well that all they need is some homogeneous matter to heat into plasma; whilst details are obviously vague, a simple tank of compressed gas would probably suffice. Obviously it's a lot easier to store and replenish that than industrially-manufactured torpedoes and bullets which have to be stored in some sort of space-inefficient feed system.
Apollo logic: You don't have a direct quote from the team, so this isn't true. :p
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 08:08:03 pm by Aesaar »

 

Offline Apollo

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Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
I just ran a test where I replaced all of a Fenris's laser turrets with (unmodded) TerPulse and removed its torpedo launcher, and it was a able to destroy a Deimos. So, the Big Ship flag does allow a weapon to destroy capships.

When you said "low endurance" I thought you meant that the Solaris needs to be refueled often (which is the problem with UEF fighters). I'm pretty sure that beams are more ammo-efficient than torpedoes, but I'm not sure to what degree. That's why I asked for a quote.

As you said, the Solaris was not designed for extended operations; it was designed for operations in Sol, where resupply is only one jump away. That said, the Solaris's endurance could likely be improved with a retrofit, which would be much cheaper than building a whole new destroyer. A possible solution would be to replace some of its torpedo launchers with beam cannons (remember, this is if the UEF and GTVA were allies). If the Solaris's reactor could support them (and I think it could, seeing as  the much older Orion was equipped with 6 of them), this would give it the anti-subsystem power of torpedoes without the same inefficiency.

Quote
If that logic isn't enough for you, then I don't see the purpose of arguing with you further. 

Quote
The Solaris could replace the Hecate because it has comparable effectiveness after it runs out of Apocalypses. Before then, it will be far more capable against enemy warships.
No, a Hecate is, generally speaking, more effective than a torpedoless Solaris .  1 BGreen and 4 TerSlash are more effective than 12 Gattlers (which require ammo too, you know).  This doesn't even consider that many Hecates have probably had their big turret guns replaced by pulse weapons.  No examples, but TerPulse doesn't have the power grid problems blue beams have, and can be retrofitted on some older ships (Battuta, I'd really appreciate it if you could confirm or deny this bit).

That statement ignores three things: 1, the horrible inaccuracy of the TerSlash (not to mention the Hecate's poor beam placement), 2, the Solaris's far stronger armor and larger hangar, and 3, the fact that, with its Apocalypse torpedoes, the Solaris is far, far more effective against warships than the Hecate. Also, while the Gattlers require ammo, their ammo is extremely small, which somewhat makes up for this.


Superdestroyers (which I still say the GTVA shouldn't build) are prohibitively expensive, but they offer overwhelming firepower-not so much against other supercapitals, but against destroyers, corvettes, and cruisers--remember that supercaps are rarely deployed (the Shivans also rarely deploy supercaps, even though they have like 40 of them), which contributes to their effectiveness--no single ship, short of another supercap, can stop them. The 14th Battlegroup only destroyed that Sathanas because they all attacked it at once, which will not always be possible.

By "normal circumstances", I mean the Sathanas and the Colossus attacking each other at full strength without any friendly warship support. In that scenario, the Colossus has absolutely no chance of survival, unless it jumps out.

As for the UEF's losses at the end of WiH1, they still have all three of their Solarises, and a bunch of frigates and cruisers. Still, I actually think you might be right about that. I remember they lost a bunch of Sancti and a few frigates, but I'll have to look at their losses to see if they still have a chance.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
One of the scary things the GTVA has is the Deimos. That is a very mean ship for the same reason Starcraft marines are mean units.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
I just ran a test where I replaced all of a Fenris's laser turrets with (unmodded) TerPulse and removed its torpedo launcher, and it was a able to destroy a Deimos. So, the Big Ship flag does allow a weapon to destroy capships.

IIRC the Deimos isn't a capship. The TerPulse can't destroy huge ships like destroyers or juggernauts because it doesn't have the right table flags.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
Corvettes in retail have the Big Damage
Otherwise we wouldn't need EMP missiles to destroy the SCv Tiamat :P

One of the scary things the GTVA has is the Deimos. That is a very mean ship for the same reason Starcraft marines are mean units.

Deimos can stim? D:
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 08:46:29 pm by Droid803 »
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Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
Stimpacks on a Deimos?
* SpardaSon21 scribbles a note to give this idea to Axem.

In all seriousness though, the most likely answer is that a Deimos is very effective against both air (fighters) and ground (cap ships).  4 TerSlash, Piranha launchers, flak, and AA beams make the Deimos a really useful vessel, plus it also has blobs.
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Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
Code: [Select]
-when
    -key-pressed
        -S
    -send-message
        -GTCv Deimos
        -high
        -ah yeah
    -sabotage-subsystem
        -GTCv Deimos
        -hull
        -10
    -set-ai-class
        -GTCv Deimos
        -BALLS OF STEELE

 

Offline niffiwan

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Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
In all seriousness though, the most likely answer is that a Deimos is very effective against both air (fighters) and ground (cap ships).  4 TerSlash, Piranha launchers, flak, and AA beams make the Deimos a really useful vessel, plus it also has blobs.

I thought it was a reference to how many Deimos corvettes the GTVA has, although you've raised a good better point about its versatility.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 09:51:12 pm by niffiwan »
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
One of the scary things the GTVA has is the Deimos. That is a very mean ship for the same reason Starcraft marines are mean units.

Is there a way to get individual groups of posts into the Classics section?  That little three-post combo was glorious.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
Code: [Select]
-when
    -key-pressed
        -S
    -send-message
        -GTCv Deimos
        -high
        -ah yeah
    -sabotage-subsystem
        -GTCv Deimos
        -hull
        -10
    -set-ai-class
        -GTCv Deimos
        -BALLS OF STEELE

it's full of stars

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
Apollo: Endurance, at least as I use it, is how much a ship is reliant on close logistical support and how long and effectively it can operate without it.  UEF ships are really bad about this, GTVA ships are not.

Can someone find out exactly what the Big Ship, Huge, and Big Damage flags do?  Wiki isn't terribly helpful, and I'd really like to put this to rest.

Quote
As you said, the Solaris was not designed for extended operations; it was designed for operations in Sol, where resupply is only one jump away. That said, the Solaris's endurance could likely be improved with a retrofit, which would be much cheaper than building a whole new destroyer. A possible solution would be to replace some of its torpedo launchers with beam cannons (remember, this is if the UEF and GTVA were allies). If the Solaris's reactor could support them (and I think it could, seeing as  the much older Orion was equipped with 6 of them), this would give it the anti-subsystem power of torpedoes without the same inefficiency.
  But why bother?  Refitting the Orions was worth doing because the GTVA didn't have other ships that could do their job.  The GTVA of today doesn't need Solarises.  Even if they could be refitted to fill in for Hecates (I still maintain they can't), they have Titans, which are a much more feasible replacement for the Hecate than Solarises, and fit in with current fleet doctrine better.  Moreover, blue beams require meson reactors and power grids designed for them, which Solarises don't have.  So they'd be using the same beams as the Hecate.  Yay.  Really worth the refit time.  And the refit isn't just adding beam emitters to the hull.  You'd have to make space, either by removing armor, ammo bins, weapons, or fighter bay space.  Then you'd have to make sure the ships can get resupplied when they need to, meaning your supply depots need even more types of munitions in stock.  This whole thing is a logistical nightmare.


The TerSlash isn't as bad as you make it out to be, especially when fighting bigger ships.  They're the primary armament of the Deimos, which is still a fairly effective corvette.  And let's remember I don't argue that the Hecate is better performance-wise than the Solaris.  It isn't.  It's cheaper, smaller, and stays effective for longer (especially if refitted with TerPulse in the big turrets).  I'm saying that Gattlers alone don't match a BGreen and 4 TerSlash for versatility and self-defense capability when fighting Shivans.  Chances are they have more subspace maneuverability as well, given their smaller size and the GTVA's greater understanding of subspace.

If the GTVA gets any Solarises when the UEF surrenders, they probably won't scrap them, but they won't build more.  As system monitors attached to specific installations, the captured ones could serve well.


You say the Colossus can't beat a Sathanas 1v1, but why would the GTVA even try to do that?  You can't judge ship effectiveness in a vacuum.  You have to consider how the ships of a fleet perform together.  You're right to say no single ship can take on a Sathanas.  That's why the GTVA doesn't build single ships do so.  Ganging up on Sathanases is exactly what the GTVA built the Chimera and Bellerophon corvettes and the Titan BBlue array to do.  They jump in to the side, or above/below, and tear the **** out of it.  The GTVA has no intention of fighting Sathanases in fair fights, and therefore has no need to build ships to fight them 1v1.  The 14th battlegroup's attack was a textbook example of the GTVA's approach.


As for what remains of the UEF military at the end of WiH, they're not doing good.  All three Solarises remain, but 3JRF is almost gone.  At most, 1 Solaris, 3 Karunas, 3 Narayanas, and unknown number of cruisers.  After the battle that they participate in during the event of DE, it's quite possible that what you see in Sunglare is all that remains.  2nd is doing better, and 1st is mostly intact, but 3JRF was the best they had (most experienced crews, etc.).  The GTVA suffered losses too, but nothing that bad.

Deimos can stim? D:
Beam overload! I'd call replacing TerSlash with BGreen one hell of a stim.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 01:39:18 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
I'm still not convinced that Ubuntu poses any serious threat to the stability of the GTVA. If anything, the GTVA's war on Sol is probably damaging its stability.
The GTVA is convinced of the threat and has very serious studies from some of humanity's best minds to back it up. That's what matters to them.

Since the Shivans don't use any ECM, the Solaris's torpedoes would not be jammed in a fight with them.
Uuuuuuh, quote plz ? How do you know the Shivans don't ECM ?

Oh, and they still don't have a solution for the Sathanas.
*cough*Serkr Team*cough*

I guess that makes sense. Still, there are a few things I think they should do differently.
Probably because you don't have all the data, and expert analysis, they have.

Well, first of all, they need a way to deal with Sathanas juggernauts. I would suggest building a few superdestroyers, but that's probably too expensive. An alternative would be to make a destroyer-sized vessel without a fighterbay, so that it could carry much heavier beam weaponry than a regular destroyer. That ship would be significantly less flexible, but it would offer some of the firepower of a superdestroyer without the huge cost. A fleet of these would be able to effectively counter juggernauts.

They should also make peace with the UEF, although it may be too late at this point (the Security Council thinks that losing the war would cause a much larger one within the GTVA). An alliance could possibly give them access the Sol's shipyards, and while the UEF ships currently have poor endurance, that problem could probably be fixed and if they did it would give their military a significant boost.
Are you trying to say the GTVA should try to build a fleet to match the Shivans in firepower ? That's obviously impossible (Dante, anyone ?).

The problem is that destroying the UEF isn't neccesary for the survival of humanity.
Again, keep the absolutes at door please. The GTVA has data you don't have (notice all the [REDACTED] everywhere ?), they have analysists with an expertise none of us have, and they have tons of simulations and hard data to back them up. You can't judge their actions and their choices with only a partial view of what's actually going on. The GTVA is not stupid, all their choices in BP have made sense with the data they have.

I guarantee you, if the GTVA were to build another juggernaut or superdestroyer they would not make that mistake.
Oh, I didn't know you were the one in charge of GTVA strategical decisions. The more you know !

a supercapital would also give them a ship that was nigh-invulnerable to most other warships.
Wut. There is very little the GTVA can do against the raw firepower of Shivan anti-capital ships weaponry. The best they could do would probably be a ship that could resist a couple of BFRed salvoes before breaking up. It's a much better strategy to have multiple corvette-sized ships that can much more easily be deployed on Shivans' weak points and not be a huge loss if destroyed.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 03:24:07 am by MatthTheGeek »
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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
I thought it was a reference to how many Deimos corvettes the GTVA has, although you've raised a good better point about its versatility.
The Deimos is very numerous and, as seen in Delenda Est, can overcharge their beams. So both the numbers and the stimpack part are accounted for ;)


As for the Ubuntu philosophy being dangerous:
Remember that the Terran GTVA citizens are not happy. Ever since Capella was lost, they have been in a very bad economic situation, which probably means a lot of unemployment and very little beyond the bare necessities in live and all the while they see their Vasudan neighbors prosper. The only thing that kept the Terrans together and prevented mass riots all over the place was the goal of reuniting with Earth and that everything will be better once that happens.
Now enter the Ubuntu: The people affiliated with it (wether true believers or just allies like the Jovians) are very prosperous, healthy and well fed. Unemployment, if it exists at all, is very small. Their economy rivals the entire Terran part of the GTVA in a single system. For the downtrodden, poor fellows outside of Sol this must seem like paradise in comparison to their own place.

That is pretty much the picture of how it is, though with their information controll, the majority of GTVA citizens are propably unaware of it.

The average citizen will not think "Hey let's adopt the economical parts of Ubuntu and forget the rest", they will just think "Let's be part of it all the way". Now conside those not turned to the UEF. They will think that the 'new converts' are soft, short sighted idiots who traded their best chance for survival for a bit of luxury. In such a situation conflic is almost inevitable.
And with the Terran GTVAs economy already being on the brink of collapse, such internal conflict might very well be the final nail in the coffin sparking off widespread rioting and maybe even outright civil war.

Of course it's theoretically possible that this can be avoided, but the damage in case it does happen is just too catastrophic to wait and see, and thus the GTVA high command had to counteract the possibility somehow. They chose to counteract it by taking Ubuntu out of the picture and due to the unfortunate events at the end of AoA forced them into a prolonged war.
Remember that the GTVA didn't want that war. They wanted a quick and clean solution (well... clean from a strategic view... morally still ambiguous, but a lot less than the actual war), but between what happened to the 14th BG and it's vice admiral (Ad. Bei's 2nd in command... who's name I forgot) messing up, that was no longer an option.

 

Offline crizza

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Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
Now the Eos_Steele is a pretty scary weapon...

 
Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
You know, that would be really funny if one of Steele's schemes ruined his war effort. That might actually be the only thing that could save the UEF.

Or...Vishnans/Shivans show up.

But the UEF will really win the war when Byrne busts out his special project, the Pirate Colossus Fleet led by FRED and supported by the FREDayeen, with Alpha 1 spearheading the counterattack. It will be GLORIOUS. 


Deimos can stim? D:
Beam overload! I'd call replacing TerSlash with BGreen one hell of a stim.

Huh, actually, that is an interesting notion--but the problem with the Deimos 'stim' is that it requires a risky setup and delay to even start using, whereas Marine stim is something that can be used instantly (with the risks starting right along with the rewards), and stim increases mobility while Deimos-stim decreases mobility.

Didn't it take something like a full minute for those two Deimos's to overdrive their beam cannons in DE, even though they were just sitting around for 10+ minutes beforehand doing nothing (and might have had a larger degree of advanced warning beyond that)? Given the UEF's strengths in subsystem disruption and turret sniping, along with the myriad of beam-disruption techs they have (even if most of them are of very limited effectiveness in most situations), the Deimos 'stim' is a highly situational, difficult thing to even start doing--getting more than one beam pulse off seems even more absurdly difficult.

----

Oh, and about the Solaris--I see it being worth the cost of refitting existing Solaris destroyers to be fleet carriers and massive SSM platforms (as well as emergency destroyer-level fire support, ala Toutatis in Aristeia), but as a thing to produce more of I can't really see it being cost effective (unless they are cheaper to produce than it might initially seem based on UEF's military industrial output).



Superdestroyers (which I still say the GTVA shouldn't build) are prohibitively expensive, but they offer overwhelming firepower-not so much against other supercapitals, but against destroyers, corvettes, and cruisers--remember that supercaps are rarely deployed (the Shivans also rarely deploy supercaps, even though they have like 40 of them), which contributes to their effectiveness--no single ship, short of another supercap, can stop them. The 14th Battlegroup only destroyed that Sathanas because they all attacked it at once, which will not always be possible.

By "normal circumstances", I mean the Sathanas and the Colossus attacking each other at full strength without any friendly warship support. In that scenario, the Colossus has absolutely no chance of survival, unless it jumps out.

About Superdestroyers:) this is true of all ships (at least above cruiser class); a well-rounded ship that's twice the size and 'weight' of its opponent has, comparatively, overwhelming firepower and a huge advantage in one-on-one engagements. You don't need a destroyer for that--just look at the Sobek, against a Leviathan or Aeolus. The Chimera, against a Sanctus or Hyperion. The Raynor, which isn't a superdestroyer, is very much like a battlecruiser when up against the UEF--diverse, overwhelming firepower against smaller targets (Karuna and below, though Narayana's are no match by themselves/at close range), but fares poorly against targets of its size and above without serious, heavy-firepower support.

The Colossus, for all of its flaws, was the ultimate bane of the NTF because it outclassed Orion and Deimos ships so much in both firepower and durability, requiring nothing short of the entire NTF armada at once to have a fighting chance--and with some support (Deimos corvettes, etc), even that wouldn't be enough.

The Tevs are much more effective and adaptable with heavy-firepower corvettes backed up by some cheap, versatile corvettes (Deimos) than they are with one or two superdestroyers. Destroyers are, outside of carrier capacity, highly limited in terms of tactical and even strategic flexibility--they're powerful and very significant on a strategic level, but unless deployed beyond a last resort they're a predictable, static threat. Steele, with the Atreus, manages to actually use his destroyer like a corvette (due to the sprint drive and subspace mobility), and the result is fairly devastating. Even when the damage done by itself isn't huge, its strategic threat is colossal because it is used often, aggressively, and flexibly.

About the Colossus/Sath engagement:) Not quite. Keep in mind that a vast majority of a Sath's firepower is directed forward. A single LRed is its only other armament, and its field of fire is somewhat limited. So, if the Colossus engages the Sathanas from behind, it's a whole different story--and I think it's fair to say that the Colossus' fighter/bomber complement seems to be larger than the Sath's. With overdriven beams, the Colossus outputs something like 150-170K damage every 35 seconds or so (based on the scenario of four beams being able to maintain fire at once, with the rest unable to get a firing angle).

This means that ships like the Imperieuse are at a serious disadvantage when attacked from behind, which gives less powerful or less attack-oriented ships a fighting chance to take out larger/more powerful ships when deployed ideally. This also factors into the above dynamic--if it's easier to have a ship lying in reserve to precision-jump a recently-deployed target from behind than it is to have ships in the field maneuver into an ideal firing angle at newcomers, then it's better to have two good ships than one great ship under a number of circumstances, which is partly why destroyers benefit greatly from having a large carrier capacity (relatively speaking); it gives them much-needed flexibility and adaptability.

About the 14th BG vs Sath:) Not at all; the Temeraire (sp?) and her escorts showing up just made the victory decisive and much quicker. After the Orestes' strike craft took out the Sath's forward beams, the Orestes was free to pound away at the juggernaut with a good deal of firepower. Granted, the Sath might have had the time to jump away eventually, but it would do so having taken heavy damage and losing all four of its main beams, leaving it very vulnerable to a follow-up attack by the Orestes.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 01:40:18 pm by SaltyWaffles »
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Offline Black_Yoshi1230

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Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
You know, that would be really funny if one of Steele's schemes ruined his war effort. That might actually be the only thing that could save the UEF.

Or...Vishnans/Shivans show up.

But the UEF will really win the war when Byrne busts out his special project, the Pirate Colossus Fleet led by FRED and supported by the FREDayeen, with Alpha 1 spearheading the counterattack. It will be GLORIOUS. 

About the Colossus/Sath engagement:) Not quite. Keep in mind that a vast majority of a Sath's firepower is directed forward. A single LRed is its only other armament, and its field of fire is somewhat limited. So, if the Colossus engages the Sathanas from behind, it's a whole different story--and I think it's fair to say that the Colossus' fighter/bomber complement seems to be larger than the Sath's. With overdriven beams, the Colossus outputs something like 150-170K damage every 35 seconds or so (based on the scenario of four beams being able to maintain fire at once, with the rest unable to get a firing angle).

This means that ships like the Imperieuse are at a serious disadvantage when attacked from behind, which gives less powerful or less attack-oriented ships a fighting chance to take out larger/more powerful ships when deployed ideally. This also factors into the above dynamic--if it's easier to have a ship lying in reserve to precision-jump a recently-deployed target from behind than it is to have ships in the field maneuver into an ideal firing angle at newcomers, then it's better to have two good ships than one great ship under a number of circumstances, which is partly why destroyers benefit greatly from having a large carrier capacity (relatively speaking); it gives them much-needed flexibility and adaptability.


I will be laughing on the day if Steele keeps abusing his flash jump capabilities, one day it's either going to short out or blow up in his face (but this being Blue Planet, he probably has a tertiary drive laying around somewhere or he's going to say screw it, "death by beams" all over the place). And which Alpha 1 are you talking about? The FS1's Alpha 1 who is probably watching the war in his house on the beach?

I did try to do three GTVA destroyers against a Sath in a direct engagement (don't take my word for it, I tried a Hatshepsut, a Raynor and Titan), whatever I did with the bombers bungled up so bad that only the Hat lived to see the day. (Of course, when I look back at the footage, the rear LRed was the killer because I distracted the Sath with other orders, and I didn't account for that.) Anyone have a better idea?

And is it just me, or out of the 14th's Temeraire side in Aquarius, the GTCv Labouchere (or however you spell it) actually did quite a lot of the anti-cap workhorse role?
 
Quote
About the 14th BG vs Sath:) Not at all; the Temeraire (sp?) and her escorts showing up just made the victory decisive and much quicker. After the Orestes' strike craft took out the Sath's forward beams, the Orestes was free to pound away at the juggernaut with a good deal of firepower. Granted, the Sath might have had the time to jump away eventually, but it would do so having taken heavy damage and losing all four of its main beams, leaving it very vulnerable to a follow-up attack by the Orestes.

You're also forgetting the Boreas and Miranda made the decision to assist the Orestes (they were ready to assist at any time, guarding the Fortune with the Persephone).
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|| BEAMS! DEATH BY BEAMS! <- Blue Planet: War in Heaven in a nutshell. (Phrase is adapted from the Freeman's Mind spinoff Barney's Mind, Episode 14: BEES! DEATH BY BEES!)

^ Give a kid a stick and tell him to beat up his enemies, he'll do it without a second thought. Give a kid a book and tell him to defeat his opponent, and he'll read the book, defeat the other's mind, and smack him on top of the head. Give a kid a flower, he'll force his opponent to eat it.

 

Offline Apollo

  • 28
  • Free Market Fascist
Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
Superdestroyers:

Like most other warships, superdestroyers have a huge advantage against smaller ships. The thing is, in this case a ship of "equal power" is another supercapital. Since supercapitals are rarely deployed (the Shivans rarely deploy them too, even though they have like 40 of them) a supercapital on one side can allow them to instantly win a single battle, simply because the other side will probably be trying to fight it off with much weaker and smaller ships. That said, superdestroyers are extremely expensive. This makes it a bad idea for the GTVA to build one (that's what I said in the first place), but not for the same reasons you keep bringing up.


Solaris:

If the Hecate could be equipped with TerPulse, why couldn't the Solaris? The Solaris could probably carry more anyway, when you consider that it likely has a stronger power grid (being a much stronger warship). Retrofitting a Solaris with BGreens would be worth it becaue BGreens are still fairly powerful, if not as strong as the BBlue. It might also be possible to equip a Solaris with a LRBGreen, since that would apparently just require making a BGreen and then permanently increasing the amount of energy poured into it. That might not work though.

You would find space for beam weapons by removing some of its Apocalypses.

The Hecate's Terslash are innacurate, and they also have a poor field of fire (disregarding the forward one). The Solaris has an excellent field of fire, and if it can bring 4-5 of its Gattler Turrets (it can) to bear on a side attacker, it already has a heavier and more accurate broadside than the Hecate. This is ignoring the Solaris's Apocalypse, which give it far, far more firepower than the Hecate.

The Titan is superior in some ways, but it has a few noticable weaknesses: poor broadside, relatively weak armor (compared to the Solaris's), and weaker (and slower) torpedoes that can easily be shot down due to their small numbers. If you run a test in FRED, you'll see that the Solaris can easily beat the Titan if it flanks it and attacks it from the broadside. Attacking a Raynor in the same manner would deal serious damage to the Solaris, but the Raynor also has poor forward firepower. We also don't know how the Titan's hangar size compares to the Solaris's.


ECM:

I know from AoA that the Shivans haven't developed ECM abilities. Now, it's possible that they might have by the time they attack the GTVA again, but I doubt they will. It completely goes against their previous tactics, as the Shivans have always just tried to bury the GTVA under their superior firepower. On the off chance that they have, the GTVA's beams can also be jammed, and it would probably be no easier to jam the UEF's torpedoes.


Colossus:

It is true that, if the Colossus replaces all of its regular beam cannons with LRBGreens and flanks the Sathanas with its broadside, it will win the fight (though it will almost be destroyed itself). However, this requires overloading its beam cannons (which damages the beams), and even at that, the Colossus will take massive damage from the Sathanas. Considering that Colossus barely wins even with the huge advantage of flanking and even when it overloads all of its beams, it's really out of its league against the Sathanas.

Of course, the GTVA never expected to fight anything with anywhere near the Colossus's firepower or durability, so that probably explains the Colossus's general inferiority to the Sathanas. That kind of arrogance can be very dangerous on the battlefield.

I can guarantee you that the GTVA would not make that mistake again because they now have a much more realistic understanding of the Shivans' firepower and the Colossus's design flaws. Were they to build another one, they would make it better equipped to take on a Sathanas, because they now understand that the Shivans will likely always have something with equal or superior firepower.


Hypothetical destroyer-sized warship:

I'm not suggesting that the GTVA could match the Shivans' overwhelming firepower. That said, a warship like this would be useful because it would be a relatively cheap method of obtaining massive firepower, which is what the GTVA needs to deal with Sathanas juggernauts. They already have the ability to do so, but this would enhance that ability significantly, as this kind of warship would be cheap enough to mass-produce.


14th Battlegroup's fight with the Sathanas:

The Orestes might have been able to defeat the Sathanas on its own, but in the time that took the juggernaut could possibly have recharged its jump drives, turned around to attack the Orestes with its LRed, or called for reinforcements--the latter being most likely, and potentially a huge problem.


Ubuntu:

As for the Ubuntu philosophy being dangerous:
Remember that the Terran GTVA citizens are not happy. Ever since Capella was lost, they have been in a very bad economic situation, which probably means a lot of unemployment and very little beyond the bare necessities in live and all the while they see their Vasudan neighbors prosper. The only thing that kept the Terrans together and prevented mass riots all over the place was the goal of reuniting with Earth and that everything will be better once that happens.
Now enter the Ubuntu: The people affiliated with it (wether true believers or just allies like the Jovians) are very prosperous, healthy and well fed. Unemployment, if it exists at all, is very small. Their economy rivals the entire Terran part of the GTVA in a single system. For the downtrodden, poor fellows outside of Sol this must seem like paradise in comparison to their own place.

That is pretty much the picture of how it is, though with their information controll, the majority of GTVA citizens are propably unaware of it.

The average citizen will not think "Hey let's adopt the economical parts of Ubuntu and forget the rest", they will just think "Let's be part of it all the way". Now conside those not turned to the UEF. They will think that the 'new converts' are soft, short sighted idiots who traded their best chance for survival for a bit of luxury. In such a situation conflic is almost inevitable.
And with the Terran GTVAs economy already being on the brink of collapse, such internal conflict might very well be the final nail in the coffin sparking off widespread rioting and maybe even outright civil war.

Of course it's theoretically possible that this can be avoided, but the damage in case it does happen is just too catastrophic to wait and see, and thus the GTVA high command had to counteract the possibility somehow. They chose to counteract it by taking Ubuntu out of the picture and due to the unfortunate events at the end of AoA forced them into a prolonged war.
Remember that the GTVA didn't want that war. They wanted a quick and clean solution (well... clean from a strategic view... morally still ambiguous, but a lot less than the actual war), but between what happened to the 14th BG and it's vice admiral (Ad. Bei's 2nd in command... who's name I forgot) messing up, that was no longer an option.

The "average citizen" would not be fully or even mostly transformed by Ubuntu. This is because in order for a society to fully embrace Ubuntu, it would have to exist in a very special set of circumstances, and its citizens might even need to be conditioned from an early age to accept it (not sure about that part, though). In any case, the situation you described (some citizens adopting all aspects of Ubuntu and others getting really angry at them and possibly attacking them for that) would not happen, because even if lots of people tried to fully adopt Ubuntu, most of them would be unable to, as that would require a huge change in their personality. Look at real-life religions to see what I mean--many religious people follow their religion in name but not so much in practice (I'm not bashing religion, there are some that do. :nervous:). I know Ubuntu isn't a religion, but it requires a similarly huge change in personality to fully adopt it.

As for the UEF being under alien influence--that seems pretty likely, at least for the Elders. That may or may not justify the GTVA's invasion, however--If the Shivans are influencing them, they might well want the GTVA to destroy the UEF, partly because they hate Terrans in general, and partly because they would want the GTVA the waste their resources fighting the UEF and not have access to Sol's industries.


Damn, how did I get into seven arguments at once? :jaw:
Current Project - Eos: The Coward's Blade. Coming Soon (hopefully.)

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
Superdestroyers: what are the reasons I keep bringing up?  I want to make sure you understand exactly what I'm saying.

Solaris/Hecate: take a look at the size of the Raynor/Titan TerPulse turrets.  They're huge.  The Hecate has turrets big enough, the Solaris most certainly doesn't.  There isn't enough physical space on the ship to fit TerPulse, and making some would add even more time and effort to the refit.  Mounting BGreens would also be tricky because it requires you to add a large amount of heavy-duty power conduits for those beams, so you couldn't have many.  Weapons, even those that look small from outside, have a huge amount of internal components.  They're like icebergs; what you see is only a small part.  You just don't seem to get how extensive this refit would need to be.  You're turning it into a whole new ship.  Build more corvettes instead.  They're a better use of those shipyards.

You might bring up the Orions here, but again, when the Orions were refitted, the GTVA didn't have any ships capable of doing their job, so a refit was worth it.  This simply isn't the case for the Solaris or any other UEF ship.

The Titan is a superior choice to the Solaris for the GTVA's purposes.  It has different coverage, like you said, meaning a relatively poor broadside.  It also has a ****ton more forward firepower and comparable hangar space.  The two ships are comparable to begin with, but like the Hecate, endurance.  When the Solaris is reduced to its Gattlers, the Titan will still be shock jumping Shivan destoyers with its beams.

Seriously, I understand you like the Solaris, but it isn't anywhere near the pinnacle of destroyer design.  It has significant flaws that make it incompatible with GTVA line fleet doctrine.  This is a fact.  Accept it.

On the TerSlash: there's one TerSlash on the Hecate that has a bad fire arc.  That's the rear one.  The middle ones are quite good at engaging targets to the side and below.  Take a look at Post-Meridian.  The Meridian can usually fire on the Vilnius with both of these.  They're in a good place to defend the hangar.

Quote
I know from AoA that the Shivans haven't developed ECM abilities
No, you don't.  You know from AoA that the Shivans weren't using ECM.  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

14th BG Sathanas: I'm not saying the Orestes could or should have handled the Sathanas alone, I'm saying that GTVA doctrine doesn't call for it to do so.  You seem hung up on the fact that the GTVA doesn't have a ship that can handle a Sathanas 1v1.  I'm saying the GTVA doesn't want or need to do that.  IT ISN'T NECESSARY TO FIGHT SATHANASES IN FAIR FIGHTS/1V1.

A really cheap way of obtaining massive firepower exists.  It's called Chimeras and Bellerophons.  Destroyers are not and will never be cheap.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 11:29:22 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline Scotty

  • 1.21 gigawatts!
  • 211
  • Guns, guns, guns.
Re: Possible evidence of Fedayeen-Medjay Alliance
I love how this discussion of uber-ships actually features the phrase "a supercapital on one side can actually allow them to instantly win a single battle" and completely and totally ignores the part of AoA where this is proven completely and totally false.

The Orestes and battlegroup absolutely obliterate a Sathanas while taking no losses above fighter level.  Supercapitals are liabilities that must be shepherded unceasingly lest they find themselves in a position to be out-maneuvered and destroyed with impunity.  The GTVA learned this lesson with the Colossus.