Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: aldo_14 on November 09, 2006, 01:48:14 pm
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64% (http://uk.gamespot.com/ps3/adventure/genji/review.html?sid=6161332)
(EDIT; it's gamespot, so a load of pish no doubt, but usually they overrate rather than underrate games. Advertising revenue, davinchy kerr?)
(well, technically the first reported were Famitsu, but this is the first I know of in English)
So, 500 quid then, eh?
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The first one was entertaining. Nothing great, and awfully short, but pretty look at and entertaining to play while it lasted.
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Personally, I'm interested to see just how far the 'pretty graphics' genre will go before it collapses, and I'm not referring purely to Playstations, just gaming in general is becoming so heavily dependent on 'looking good' that, personally, I'm beginning to feel that original gameplay is coming in a distant third after visual and audio. Looking at the results for that game, it more or less copies that trend.
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Personally, I'm interested to see just how far the 'pretty graphics' genre will go before it collapses, and I'm not referring purely to Playstations, just gaming in general is becoming so heavily dependent on 'looking good' that, personally, I'm beginning to feel that original gameplay is coming in a distant third after visual and audio. Looking at the results for that game, it more or less copies that trend.
I give it about 2 years..... although I'm not an economist :)
I remember a lot of publishers posting losses or reduced profits because the 360 user base was smaller than expected (and development costs ever increasing); it seems as if the commercial games industry is largely based on an assumption of the customer base increasing in line with the product developments costs, and to me that indicates it's quite possibly heading for a crash.
Most people know my opinion on the 3 consoles that form this next gen and how much and why they do/don't appeal to me, I'd imagine, so I won't bore anyone with it :D
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Personally, I'm interested to see just how far the 'pretty graphics' genre will go before it collapses, and I'm not referring purely to Playstations, just gaming in general is becoming so heavily dependent on 'looking good' that, personally, I'm beginning to feel that original gameplay is coming in a distant third after visual and audio. Looking at the results for that game, it more or less copies that trend.
It looks like I'm not the only one out there who hates the pretty-graphic-but-nothing-else trend!
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Good point, and I agree.
I don't think there's any excuse for sloppy audio these days, file sizes being what they are I think decent audio can be fitted on the normal formats for PC and console games without any issues. But graphics are being pushed and pushed - while a lot of advancements have been made I don't really see it sustaining the gaming industry forever...
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gaming in general is becoming so heavily dependent on 'looking good' that, personally, I'm beginning to feel that original gameplay is coming in a distant third after visual and audio.
I'd agree with you if it weren't for Nintendo, but the Wii kinda punches a really big hole in that theory. Nintendo is only giving it's graphical power lip service while making the console all about gameplay. It'd still be interesting how this generation works out with that factor thrown in.
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Personally, I'm interested to see just how far the 'pretty graphics' genre will go before it collapses
(http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/3705/plymptonintellivisionle0.jpg) (http://img55.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plymptonintellivisionle0.jpg)
Hi. I'm guessing you're new to this whole "video games" thing.
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Zylon, Zylon, I see the concept of increased complexity outweighing graphical improvement is much too far over your head to have registered.
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Riiight, that's exactly what Flipside said. :doubt:
Nevermind that "increased complexity outweighing graphical improvement" is ambiguous gibberish.
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I'm with Zylon here (as per usual). The fact that graphics are getting better and better has been going on since..... I don't know - day one?
The only reason that story, audio and all that **** was relied on before was because the graphics weren't there as a distraction for morons to play the game anyway. Now that there are, you really can't blame the graphics, it's the morons who buy the games that are solely about graphics.
We who know what we want, will hang around for the full package games, but I assume we'll still have some standards regarding the graphical element not for it to revert down to the ****ing Commodore (or any mummified old console).
As far as the PS3 goes, I can't say I get why the hell they're releasing it now with the Giant Enemy Crab games and crap like that. I sure as hell wouldn't buy it for those games, nor would I recommend anyone else to do it as well. Personally I'll be getting the console when and if the games I'm waiting for (that have that full package of story/audio/video/whateverio) deliver, then Ill consider buying the console. Till then, can't say I care much.
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:wtf: Since when has the capabilitiers of a console got anything to do with the balance between graphics and gameplay? I'm not saying that good graphics are bad, what I'm saying is sacrificing gameplay for graphics is bad.
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Nope, that's not what your original sentence says.
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Personally, I'm interested to see just how far the 'pretty graphics' genre will go before it collapses, and I'm not referring purely to Playstations, just gaming in general is becoming so heavily dependent on 'looking good' that, personally, I'm beginning to feel that original gameplay is coming in a distant third after visual and audio.
The whole sentence does.
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Personally, I'm interested to see just how far the 'pretty graphics' genre will go before it collapses, and I'm not referring purely to Playstations, just gaming in general is becoming so heavily dependent on 'looking good' that, personally, I'm beginning to feel that original gameplay is coming in a distant third after visual and audio. Looking at the results for that game, it more or less copies that trend.
Seems pretty clear to me.
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And as Mr. Plympton illustrates above, this is absolutely nothing new.
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I'm not talking about the abilities of consoles, I'm talking about the balance between gameplay and visuals in games. Consoles have no gameplay whatsoever, no matter what an ad might declare, that boils down to the people who write games for them.
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Personally, I'm interested to see just how far the 'pretty graphics' genre will go before it collapses, and I'm not referring purely to Playstations, just gaming in general is becoming so heavily dependent on 'looking good' that, personally, I'm beginning to feel that original gameplay is coming in a distant third after visual and audio. Looking at the results for that game, it more or less copies that trend.
Seems pretty clear to me.
And with the inclusion of this part in that sentence that you avoided with a good reason:
Personally, I'm interested to see just how far the 'pretty graphics' genre will go before it collapses, and I'm not referring purely to Playstations, just gaming in general is becoming so heavily dependent on 'looking good' that, personally, I'm beginning to feel that original gameplay is coming in a distant third after visual and audio. Looking at the results for that game, it more or less copies that trend.
we realize the sentence creator is misinformed about what Zylon and I've pointed out.
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Yes, well if you're going to take a few words out of a sentence and consider them without regard from the rest of it, you are obviously going to get the wrong information. So basically, Aldo highlighted the parts of the sentence you and Zylon chose to ignore?
Not at any point in my post did I ask when the graphics-race started, I know when it started, I was there, but simple progress in technology is not what I am talking about, I would have thought this apparent.
Yes, consoles and games have always strived for better graphics, that's natural, what I'm talking about, as my entire sentence states, is that modern gaming seems to be more orientated towards graphics than gameplay, once upon a time, you wrote a game and put the best graphics you could to it, nowadays it seems the first stop of any game is the graphics engine, once that's sorted, they worry about adding a game to it. And on many occasions, far more work goes into the graphics than the game.
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No, Aldo highlighted the parts of the sentence that were backing up your argument, while ignoring the key part that invalidates your argument. I just highlighted it to be visible - the point is that the entire sentence matters, not just what aldo highlighted, and since you chose to start with said part, it is exclusively important and takes precedence to any other points you'd be trying to make.
So either you
a) Don't know how to write English
or you
b) Don't know anything regarding the topic of the point you were trying to make
Your pick.
Now, assuming a) is your problem, we're all on the same page, except for the fact that, like I said, it is a given that developers will try to entice the player with graphics and ultimately keep the player enamored with them, while ignoring the rest, because that's the easiest way to attract morons. Morons have money too, and there's nothing bad about making money.
It is however, our hope, that someone will (although scarcely) make games that include things aside from graphics, and therefore will make a product that is acceptable to those of us who have a higher intellect than a rabid gorilla.
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Thank you for resorting to insults, it proves you're out of options. I rest my case.
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You can rest whatever you want, your points all still remain unproven, beaten and brutally assasinated forever.
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Yes, you've conclusively proved that if you pull the first 16 words out of a 40ish word sentence and quote them out of context with a sarcastic comment, you can make up anything you want.
The simple fact you had to resort to insults strongly suggests that you are backed into a corner, fight or flight situation, you see.
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I've already explained that's not the case. You've yet to make any relevant argument regarding my logic.
Also, if you consider what i wrote above as insulting, you really have some issues regarding your own psychology.
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Fun game > Pretty game
That's where this thread is headed.
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Either
a) Don't know how to write English
or you
b) Don't know anything regarding the topic of the point you were trying to make
So you give me two options, either I'm stupid or ignorant, yes, I can see how that wouldn't be considered rude....
Whilst the start of the sentence may be considered a summarisation, it is not the body of the text, it's literally judging a book by its cover, that is why the rest of the sentence exists, to explain the meaning of the opening, if you ignore the rest of the sentence then you are ignoring its meaning. What you have done is effectively read the title and judged the content by it.
Edit : And, quite frankly, it was done deliberately.
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Those are the only two extrapolations I could deduce by you insisting that you were correct. If you can find any other reason as to why you'd make the omission and still think you were right about it, you're welcome to add it.
And again, I've already stated that the argument you're trying to make is invalid for the reasons I've already written on page one, in the post you found insulting. The fact you chose to focus on the wrong part, isn't my fault or problem.
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The whole point originally made by me was that games were getting more and more graphically focussed, I didn't mention why, or how, simply that it was happening. I don't see any relationship in your comment regarding appealing to the common denominator and Zylons original comment about how it had been going on for ages.
Now, quite honestly, taking the first 16 words out of a sentence and reading whatever you so desire into them is not good debating. If you want to debate the point, then you have to debate the whole point, not just snip out a few words and argue your entire case based on those.
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Except that point wasn't made by you, a completely different point was the point you made.
If you'd have made the point you were trying to make, as you explained later, then we'd have agreed on it from the jump.
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No it wasn't you yourself said Aldo highlighted the parts that supported my point of view, so they were obviously there.
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While ignoring the parts that invalidated it.
See, you're conveniently taking out even parts of my sentences that prove you right, without looking at the whole. The whole invalidates you.
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Yeah ok. I'll just have to accept that, to you at least, the phrase
'Personally, I'm interested to see just how far the 'pretty graphics' genre will go before it collapses'
says more than...
'and I'm not referring purely to Playstations, just gaming in general is becoming so heavily dependent on 'looking good' that, personally, I'm beginning to feel that original gameplay is coming in a distant third after visual and audio. Looking at the results for that game, it more or less copies that trend.'
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Give it a rest eh guys?
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for the graphics whores, two words: Doom. Three.
TKO!!
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I was never that impressed with D3's graphics, although I liked the game otherwise. The contrast was way too high, making everything look washed out, and the textures were often very blurry. The engine also has that annoying frameskipping problem. Far Cry came out six months earlier and looked much better in my opinion.
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Doom 3 was ok looking, but once again, suffered from a case of more effort being put into the graphics than were put into the game, to the point where the gameplay was actually being limited by the graphics.
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Only if your computer wasn't up to the task ;)
I don't know.. I found D3 to be a fairly well rounded game. The interface was top-notch as everything merged together quite nicely. The PDA was a nice touch and yes the graphics and audio were very pretty. Could they have put more effort into the storyline? I'm not sure.. it wasn't the greatest storyline in the world but it did have a lot of immersion (thanks to the graphics and the PDA) - that said they probably could have done more for the storyline than that.
And on that front, graphics can provide immersion that has made good games into great games. Imagine Doom 3 with ****ty graphics and what are you really left with? Not much. Alright it was perhaps too dark in places but the graphics really helped to heighten the sense of "oh **** what's around the corner".
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Yeah, I'll admit, the main problem with it was the fact that the graphics slowed the game down, which isn't nearly as much of a issue now.
I suppose my main problem is that, exactly as you stated, Doom3 without pretty graphics wasn't much of a game. There were some good moments, I'll admit that, but when Doom came out, the whole 'FPS' scene was new, Doom 3 was just another FPS, but with a more famous name.
Edit : Though, in all honesty, I did enjoy playing it simply because it was Doom ;)
Oddly enough, this always reminds me of a Terry Pratchett quote...
'Mankind has tried several ways to fight the Ultimate Evil, Prayer, Doing Good Deeds, Fasting etc, why did it take until Doom2 for someone to think of the double barreled shotgun?'
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I thought Doom 3 as a game was pretty good. It was reasonably long, the weapons were fun to use, and the PDAs added a lot of detail to an otherwise generic story. The level design was a mixed bag but there were some well done parts. The graphics were actually its weakest aspect IMO.
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I think the PDA's were under-used in all honesty, all they really did was confirm what you already knew, it would have been nice to have them as more than talking key-cards with the occasional access code. It would have been interesting to try and piece together both the problem and the solution by using the information on them.
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That'd be neat, but then the kind of people who like through-and-through shooters like Doom aren't necessarily going to want to stop for some puzzle solving.
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Point. Talking of which, was it me, or were the puzzles in Doom and Doom 2 a LOT harder than the ones in Doom 3? I'm trying to figure out whether it was just because I was young and not as literal a thinker or whether they were genuinely tougher.
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I don't think you can call the stuff in Doom 3 "Puzzles".
Far as I'm concerned, D3 was a weak game, game wise. Sure, the darkness, the engine, the flashlight, greeeeeat, I can appreciate the leap, but as a game, not really impressive, kind of dumbed down and boring. Darkness doesn't replace level design ingenuity.
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Agreed, there was nothing really to 'solve' as such, I remember in Doom and Doom 2 there were floors that needed lifting to get to bonuses, or sometimes merely to complete the level that took a great deal of solving, sometimes you had to trick two monsters into attacking each other etc, and the one thing I really missed was the ability to stand in one area and listen for what was behind each door, so you could plan your attack. The 'everything teleports' system in Doom 3 sort of ruined that.
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That's true, the teleporting thing did add some tension as you never quite knew when things would pop up - but it also spoiled things a bit as the complex didn't so much feel overrun as "everythnig came, killed everyone but you and now it's just waiting to pop back up infront of you".
It'd be better if they had creatures prowling around the levels, rather than waiting to voip in.
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(http://www.famitsu.com/blog/express/mobimg/photo-20061110-221310-0-cea6f15b4ad84dbae55eb41c06a62ad6.jpg)
"WAAAAAAAGH I got my two months rent piece of equipment that I won't be able to fully use in at least, a whole year. YATTA!!!"
They just started selling them in JapLand.
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That's a really big box. Funny that the Japanese suddenly don't have a problem with size....
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That's a really big box. Funny that the Japanese suddenly don't have a problem with size....
what's more amusing that the PS3 is physically larger than the 360
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And heavier than the original Xbox.
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That's because they needed more space to squeeze all that cool into... ;)
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I think if I were to look for problems in the PS3, the size of the box it came in really would be a non-starter.
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That's true, the teleporting thing did add some tension as you never quite knew when things would pop up - but it also spoiled things a bit as the complex didn't so much feel overrun as "everythnig came, killed everyone but you and now it's just waiting to pop back up infront of you".
It'd be better if they had creatures prowling around the levels, rather than waiting to voip in.
I thought that aspect alone was wank in the extreme. It ruined any tactical possbilities as the bad guys could be anywhere, anytime. Plus the maps were so tight you'd end up jimmy-jammed in a corner slugging it out with nowhere to go.
The PDA effect was much better in Shock, too.
And to reduce the Cyber Demon to a lame final boss :rolleyes:
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I think if I were to look for problems in the PS3, the size of the box it came in really would be a non-starter.
Yeah, but to DB, the PS3 is a big fat hairy problem. I mean, come on... *****ing over the size of the box? The weight of the unit? :rolleyes:
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I actually saw a PS3 on display the other day and I was shocked. The thing's huge! I mean it's a real clunker, nearly as tall as my PC tower and nearly as long, but only half as thick. It is designed to be streamlined so it looks smaller than it is, but it seems to be actually quite a bit larger than the 360, which is a surprise. Sony always lauded the portability of their systems since in Japan space is at a premium, but they phailed in that department this time. However, with all the hype attached to it I think Japs are gonna be clearing shelves in their dinky overcrowded apartments for this one, and so are many Americans for that matter.
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Are you sure it's entirely fair to be stereotyping 'Japs' as all living in tiny cluttered homes in 'Japland'?
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Just for reference:
Xbox 360:
Dimension: 309 mm(W) x 83 mm(H) x 258 mm(D)
Weight: 3.5 kg
PS3:
Dimension: 325mm(W) x 98mm(H) x 274mm (D)
Weight: 5 Kg
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Yeah, the "OMG THE SIZE" impressions are really stupid.
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Well, color me impressed... sort of.
Resistance got 9.1 at IGN. I'll wait for more sites to review first. It was given props for the gameplay, which apes HL2 alot, but apparently the graphics left a little to be desired, especially on a SDTV, and especially when compared to Gears.
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Speaking of PS3 related ****, anyone hear that PS3 games are going to sell for $90 US?
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Yeah, those were fake news.
At any rate, judging by this, the launch was a failure.
http://kotaku.com/gaming/top/foreigners-and-fights-ps3-jpn-launchs-dark-side-214130.php
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That's because they needed more space to squeeze all that cool into... ;)
it's more likely the PS3's power supply "brick" is internal rather than the external one the 360 currently utilises.
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At any rate, judging by this, the launch was a failure.
http://kotaku.com/gaming/top/foreigners-and-fights-ps3-jpn-launchs-dark-side-214130.php
I guess MS really hit on something when they had a silent launch last year.
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Oh, that's rich. :lol:
Sony has just become the asshats of the gaming community.
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That's because they needed more space to squeeze all that cool into... ;)
it's more likely the PS3's power supply "brick" is internal rather than the external one the 360 currently utilises.
Well, funnilly enough, the 360 actually has quite a lot of room inside the case. They could feasibly fit the PSU in their when they switch to the 65nm process without causing too many heat problems.
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That's because they needed more space to squeeze all that cool into... ;)
it's more likely the PS3's power supply "brick" is internal rather than the external one the 360 currently utilises.
Well, funnilly enough, the 360 actually has quite a lot of room inside the case. They could feasibly fit the PSU in their when they switch to the 65nm process without causing too many heat problems.
When are they going to make the switch? Sometime in 2007, right?
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Wait, the PS3 released?
...
Wow, ok, I'm out of it.
EDIT: And :lol: ness at that article.
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Speaking of PS3 related ****, anyone hear that PS3 games are going to sell for $90 US?
IIRC it's been confirmed PS3 and Xbox 360 games will share the same RRP.
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This is however, very promising.
http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/os/install-multiple-os-on-the-ps3-214203.php
Not having to chip it is one thing, but actually getting it to play 360 games and such.
If this works out and remains in any form, just ****ing wow.
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3rd parties at least. Most (and I say most because Gears and Forza are notable exceptions) Microsoft published games sell for $50 new.
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3rd parties at least. Most (and I say most because Gears and Forza are notable exceptions) Microsoft published games sell for $50 new.
AFAIK MS hasn't published any actual triple-A titles for a while now outside of Gears of War....
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I have some friends that are going to camp out in line starting Wednesday for the Friday release. :blah:
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Hmm, one thing I have to say about that article I posted before.
After seeing some of the comments, I have to admit, I was tracking two other stores selling the console, who had the same crowds outside, and there were no problems like these.
The problem was that the store was unprepared, not that Sony did something wrong.
I loved this comment.
Yeah, this is all Sony's fault. How DARE they produce a console that people want? Why can't they be like socially-responsible Microsoft, who create a system that no one in Japan would ever buy. Or like Nintendo, who're able to churn out a million systems a day because they're using outdated technology that's probably worth about $20 in parts?
Damn you Sony. Damn you.
Hopefully they've learned their lesson and will develop less desirable hardware next time.
Also, Sony are responsible for the Iraq War. It's a fact. I saw it on some guy's blog.
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This is however, very promising.
http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/os/install-multiple-os-on-the-ps3-214203.php
Not having to chip it is one thing, but actually getting it to play 360 games and such.
If this works out and remains in any form, just ****ing wow.
It won't. The architecture differences between the Cell and Xenon processors alone mean that one can't run 360 games on the PS3 natively, and emulating even the smallest portions of code have enormous performance implications. Not to mention the futility of emulating multi-core enabled games on a single core processor (the SPEs on the PS3 aren't nearly comparable to extra PPC cores).
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This is however, very promising.
http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/os/install-multiple-os-on-the-ps3-214203.php
Not having to chip it is one thing, but actually getting it to play 360 games and such.
If this works out and remains in any form, just ****ing wow.
It won't. The architecture differences between the Cell and Xenon processors alone mean that one can't run 360 games on the PS3 natively, and emulating even the smallest portions of code have enormous performance implications. Not to mention the futility of emulating multi-core enabled games on a single core processor (the SPEs on the PS3 aren't nearly comparable to extra PPC cores).
Not forgetting the different system level architecture, too; both have different memory setups, the Epic devs were saying that they didn't think GoW would be doable on PS3 (which is split into 256 PPU and 256 GPU RAM blocks, whereas the 360 IIRC has 512 which can be 'freely' allocated)
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http://edition.cnn.com/2006/BUSINESS/11/14/sony.ps3.ap/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/BUSINESS/11/14/sony.ps3.ap/index.html)
Not quite backwards compatible.
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I was aware of that, it's said that Sony will kind of make a solution for this when they later give updates revisions for the PS3 bios/firmware. The PS2 has or used to has the same problem when running PS1 games, just look at how the Japanese PS2 Bios says "Playstation Driver v1.00" and the PS2 Slim is using the "Playstation Driver v1.11"
Many people is asking to PS2 emu developers if they plan to port their PS2 emu to the PS3, a lot argued why would you need a PS2 emu on a PS3 while it natively supports PS2, but it seems to be not 100% true.
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Or not.
I love it when people predict the future. I need me one of those crystal balls where everything works out for the fanboy who is using it :)
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I think there was at one point the suggesting of bunging, in effect, the PS2 hardware (on a chip) into the PS3 and thus overriding the need for (much) software emulation, but that was - ! - too expensive.
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Someone will be able to flash/flex/patch the PS3 bios i've no doubt.......
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Someone will be able to flash/flex/patch the PS3 bios i've no doubt.......
Of course, although I'd wager you only need to update the OS.
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So I reckon Sony will just simply let loose a downloadable patch, like they said they would do?
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That will depend in how they try to fix it, unlike the X-Box 360 which uses software emulation, the PS3 has a combination of CPU and rasterizer chips used in slim PS2 (EE+GS), it's unknown if they will either make a patch, a bios update, or release a new hardware revision.
Another problem is that the PS2 slim has problem even with PS2 games, the v14/SCPH-7500x (silver model) has been reported to have problems with games:
http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/action/tekken5/news.html?sid=6136677
They probabily used v14 hardware for the PS3, though it's unknown, they both have near realese dates.
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I would be more troubled about how they fix their PS2 that is unable to run PS2 games, the v15/SCPH-7700x is already being manufactured, I don't know if they have fixed those problems.