Author Topic: PBR and DDS file formats.  (Read 537 times)

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PBR and DDS file formats.
Since I've been out of the loop for sometime now, what texture -blahblahblah do we now have?
I know about normal, glow and the old spec.   Roughness aka -reflect is basically an inverse of glossy (or in Painter it is roughness).  I've heard about -ao.  Is -unlit basically -albedo?

Also what are the dds formats for these?  The nvidia tool seems to be broken with photoshop CC and the intel version is a bit confusing.  I can't seem to get the extra textures to display correctly.
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Online Oddgrim

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Albedo is the diffuse texture without any AO baked into it, -ao is a baked map with a curviture map into the red alpha layer. -Reflect is the specular map with the glossy in the alpha layer. And the normal is the regular setup, teh wiki page for the PBR conversion process is kinda borked at the moment.

As for .dds conversion I have been using the intel photoshop plugin https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-texture-works-plugin it has worked faily well for me so far. c:
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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
I must be doing something wrong then.  If I use the asteriod -reflect texture  (renamed as ship-texture) it works, but if I use my own texture it doesn't do anything.

Is your -reflect map originally greyscale?  I'm exporting via texture works as texture type:color, compression:BC1, autogen mipmap
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 

Online Oddgrim

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
I must be doing something wrong then.  If I use the asteriod -reflect texture  (renamed as ship-texture) it works, but if I use my own texture it doesn't do anything.

Is your -reflect map originally greyscale?  I'm exporting via texture works as texture type:color, compression:BC1, autogen mipmap

You'll need to include the alpha layer as well in the -reflect map (glossy) to make it work.
[GhostOfMjn: I can provide hi res vasudan ass]
[Hades]: we have so much in common we should bang.
My models page:
http://p3d.in/u/Oddgrim

 
Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
I must be doing something wrong then.  If I use the asteriod -reflect texture  (renamed as ship-texture) it works, but if I use my own texture it doesn't do anything.

Is your -reflect map originally greyscale?  I'm exporting via texture works as texture type:color, compression:BC1, autogen mipmap

You'll need to include the alpha layer as well in the -reflect map (glossy) to make it work.

Ahh ha! That was it, don't think I would have figured that one out in a million years.  Looks like I'm going to be writing some small Substance Designer materials to autofix that.
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 

Offline Axem

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
To make things a little easier, you can set up export configurations in Substance Painter to align to how FreeSpace will expect textures. Make sure your project is set to Specular/Glossiness and then throw the below preset into your "...Documents\Allegorithmic\Substance Painter\shelf\export-presets" folder.

It handles everything, including the setup for the normal map channels so you just need to convert straight to DXT1 or DXT5.

EDIT: See later post for updated presets
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 05:27:06 pm by Axem »

 
Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
To make things a little easier, you can set up export configurations in Substance Painter to align to how FreeSpace will expect textures. Make sure your project is set to Specular/Glossiness and then throw the below preset into your "...Documents\Allegorithmic\Substance Painter\shelf\export-presets" folder.

It handles everything, including the setup for the normal map channels so you just need to convert straight to DXT1 or DXT5.

I don't see how to set the spec/gloss in Painter.  I know how to do it in Designer though. I can however create additional spec/gloss channels in Painter.

BTW that script gave me some weird results, perhaps how we set things up differently.  Yours uses diffuse, while mine uses base for the albido.  And the "converted maps" normal opengl produces no results.  However replacing it with the regular normal worked (or at least it seemed, could be flipped).  Also I'm kinda confused with the reflective export.  According to the exporter you're using the Specular as RGB and Glossiness as alpha, but when I import it into photoshop alpha is missing.

Ok a little more success, but I have one thing bugging me right now, the lack of real metal.  Worn nikked edges have a whitish appearance rather than the steel/alum/nickel appearance.  What am I missing?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 11:30:25 pm by Scooby_Doo »
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 

Online Oddgrim

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Not sure if this would help but, heres a quick and dirty tutorial about PBR gloss/spec maps. Might be useful for understanding those two better. https://forums.unrealengine.com/community/community-content-tools-and-tutorials/23244-pbr-tutorial-series?52529-PBR-Tutorial-Series=&highlight=PBR+tutorial
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Offline Axem

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
If you've started out in Metal/Roughness and you switch to the Specular/Glossiness shader you'll need to go to TextureSet settings and add the maps typically associated with the Specular/Glossiness workflow (diffuse, specular, glossiness), otherwise you'll just be getting that white material because it's now just not using the old metal and roughness maps. All of the default materials should be set up for either way, but user made materials might just be for Metal/Rough since that's what things like UE4 and Unity use.

I'm not sure what's up with the normal map. OpenGL and DirectX use very slightly different normal maps (or expect the data in a different way) and since FSO uses OpenGL, that's why it refers to the converted OpenGL normal map.

Also are you exporting to png? Photoshop sees transparency and alpha as two completely different things. If you're not seeing an alpha channel, export your maps to TGA then convert to DDS.

 

Offline DahBlount

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
-unlit doesnt exist anymore fyi. Just put the albedo as your diffuse, reminder that Albedo should have no lighting information either.
<Axem> yet still more insightful than #hard-light

<Axem> jad2.23 will just be cat videos

<DahBlount> So
<DahBlount> JAD2.2 is like that
<Axem> maybe
<Axem> it can be whatever you like!
<DahBlount> A Chocolate Sundae?
<Axem> sure

My models: GTF Gilgamesh - GTD Nuadha [Redesigning] - Ningirama [WIP] - GTG Zephyrus

 
Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
If you've started out in Metal/Roughness and you switch to the Specular/Glossiness shader you'll need to go to TextureSet settings and add the maps typically associated with the Specular/Glossiness workflow (diffuse, specular, glossiness), otherwise you'll just be getting that white material because it's now just not using the old metal and roughness maps. All of the default materials should be set up for either way, but user made materials might just be for Metal/Rough since that's what things like UE4 and Unity use.

I'm not sure what's up with the normal map. OpenGL and DirectX use very slightly different normal maps (or expect the data in a different way) and since FSO uses OpenGL, that's why it refers to the converted OpenGL normal map.

Also are you exporting to png? Photoshop sees transparency and alpha as two completely different things. If you're not seeing an alpha channel, export your maps to TGA then convert to DDS.

Yup I just added those two maps to the list.  BTW back when I was working with unreal I actually had a several extra maps  (User1, user2....) for extra information like paint color, toggling scratches...etc.

And as for the png, that would explain why I don't see the alpha channel.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 04:08:12 pm by Scooby_Doo »
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 

Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
I basicly wanted to ask the same question as Scooby, as another Painter user but due to lack of time for establishing proper Painter -> FSO workflow, well... I guess it's about time to join the discussion.

Normalmaps from Painter are inverted by default in FSO, as they are in DirectX normalmap format. Export them with no alpha, disassemble on separate red, green and blue channels, than invert green and blue. Set red as alpha, and assemble normal again. As for DDS formats, everything with alpha is DXT5 and without alpha is DXT1. I'm not sure if FSO handles any mipmapping.

Additional maps like team colors may be handled by -misc by FSO engine.

Is there any easy way to convert metal/rough to spec/gloss? DahBlount was explaining me this on discord channel, but I was tired as hell and now I remember nothing o___O.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 05:30:55 pm by Nyctaeus »
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Offline DahBlount

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
There's a metalness to specular conversion tutorial here.
https://www.marmoset.co/posts/pbr-texture-conversion/#metaltospec

The reason I discourage people from using metalness workflows is because they are inferior to specular workflows when it comes to sampling. The metalness texture has issues at material transitions that can only be fixed using a selective filter that smooths and dithers the edges or you get aliasing in the reflection. Specular materials do not have this issue as the metallicity is implicitly held in the magnitude of the specular color and the transitions between materials are thus smoother and dont affect the reflection.
<Axem> yet still more insightful than #hard-light

<Axem> jad2.23 will just be cat videos

<DahBlount> So
<DahBlount> JAD2.2 is like that
<Axem> maybe
<Axem> it can be whatever you like!
<DahBlount> A Chocolate Sundae?
<Axem> sure

My models: GTF Gilgamesh - GTD Nuadha [Redesigning] - Ningirama [WIP] - GTG Zephyrus

 
Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Ahhhh I remember noticing that too.  I just thought it was something I was doing wrong.

I also found the pbr-spec-gloss shader.  That at least brings the metallic look back into Painter, however  there's only a slight problem I see at least with Painter, a lot of the presets are based around metal (base color, metal).

« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 08:21:25 pm by Scooby_Doo »
That's cool and ....disturbing at the same time o_o  - Vasudan Admiral

"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I like, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor. And you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."

"Quick everyone out of the universe now!"

 

Offline Axem

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Okay so Substance Painter has a method that can export Spec/Glossiness from a Metal/Roughness project. I've updated my presets, see if they work for you guys. You select "FS2 - MetalRough" if you started out in a Metal Rough template and "FS2 - SpecGloss" for Specular Gloss template.

EDIT: See later post for updated files
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 05:26:41 pm by Axem »

 

Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Okay so Substance Painter has a method that can export Spec/Glossiness from a Metal/Roughness project. I've updated my presets, see if they work for you guys. You select "FS2 - MetalRough" if you started out in a Metal Rough template and "FS2 - SpecGloss" for Specular Gloss template.
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and Painter

Pardon me crazy bloom settings. Anyway, it preserves all reflectivity of the surfaces well. I can confirm that this presets are working almost flawless. The only problem is lack of exported albedo/diffuse so I needed to export it via different preset. This thing is great!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 05:20:55 pm by Nyctaeus »
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Offline Axem

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Oh right, I forgot that metal/rough uses base color not diffuse! You should use the converted diffuse if you haven't already. I've also updated my presets (now in a more permanent place)

Slightly updated files: https://sectorgame.com/fsfiles/repo/data/Axem/Other/SP_FreeSpace2_Presets3.rar

 

Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
Oh right, I forgot that metal/rough uses base color not diffuse! You should use the converted diffuse if you haven't already. I've also updated my presets (now in a more permanent place)

Slightly updated files: https://sectorgame.com/fsfiles/repo/data/Axem/Other/SP_FreeSpace2_Presets3.rar
I used basecolor from standard metalness preset, but albedo and basecolor are the same in both metal/rough and spec/gloss workflows. Basicly diffuse too, but it used to contain some additional reflectivity information if used inappropriately.
Thanks for updated presets!
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MY RELEASED CONTENT SO FAR
Old Conversions | GTSD Anchorage | ORFg Tychicus | GTCa Sagittarius | SCv Scylla | EFC Evangelist | EFFg Solomon | GTL Latona | SC Raguel | PVD Atum | GTCv Eurynome | FractalSpace - Apophysis Skydome Pack | Updated Ancients Models
All of my stuff can be used ONLY in Freespace campaigns and missions.

Veteran modder and graphic designer of all kinds. 3D is my speciality. Feel free to PM me if you looking for a model or other GFX help.

 

Offline Nyctaeus

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
:bump:

I'm reconverting the Schrodinger for proper -reflect format and I've noticed that albedo from this presets is incredibly dark:

Is this intended? Comparing to my previous exported textures, this results will be deffinitly darker ingame than desired result.
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MY RELEASED CONTENT SO FAR
Old Conversions | GTSD Anchorage | ORFg Tychicus | GTCa Sagittarius | SCv Scylla | EFC Evangelist | EFFg Solomon | GTL Latona | SC Raguel | PVD Atum | GTCv Eurynome | FractalSpace - Apophysis Skydome Pack | Updated Ancients Models
All of my stuff can be used ONLY in Freespace campaigns and missions.

Veteran modder and graphic designer of all kinds. 3D is my speciality. Feel free to PM me if you looking for a model or other GFX help.

 

Offline Axem

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Re: PBR and DDS file formats.
I really don't know... Would it be possible to get a hold of the project file?