Hard Light Productions Forums
Archived Boards => The Archive => Blackwater Operations => Topic started by: BigInc on March 04, 2005, 11:41:20 pm
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Hi, I just was wondering on the progress I have been following the game for awhile now and I am very excited about the release. Anyone, somebody please give an update! I am a huge fan of freespace 2 and wing commander series.
Thanks!
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Well, i have been keeping track of it, but i don't know if it will need all the graphical upgrades from the FSOpen Project, but i know it is required to be installed at least for the new sexc or whatever it is. (FRED stuff i believe)
The Demo was quite good, but i have had severe problems with FSOpen lately so i hope it is all working when BWO is finished and released.
also, i hope this campaign has full speech in Command Briefings, Briefings, Debriefings and ingame speech, because a FS or FS2 campaign without speech is not a finished campaign. (IMO)
I could never play Derelict a second time because of that, i must have failed each mission 5 times trying to read what it says ingame and going onto the menu to read something is not my type of solution.
Derelict had a good story, but it failed in my mind because of lack of speech, otherwise it was good.
Either way, i just hope they sort out the FSOpen problems that have been coming up and i am also losing track of the new stable releases.
Well, i was abit off topic eh? sorry. :/
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I can never understand why people have so much trouble reading the ingame messages. I've never had that kind of problem, I learned how to do that long ago when playing the single missions in FS1. It's not really that hard.
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To make reading the ingame messages feasible, the FREDder must ensure two things:
1) The length of the message is short enough so it can appear all at one time.
2) The time delay between messages is long enough to give the player time to read it in the first place.
Some FREDders forget these things, causing the player headaches.
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Our trouble is we have alot of dialogue. Thats bad for voice actors and thats also bad for downloads and also also bad for reading messages in-game.
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Days of 56k are over though. It was okay that we split hairs over megabytes two years ago, but it's a different world today.
People who can't get the voices today - tough deal. Almost everyone is on cable today, a standard for a couple of hundreds of megabytes should really be set.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
I can never understand why people have so much trouble reading the ingame messages. I've never had that kind of problem, I learned how to do that long ago when playing the single missions in FS1. It's not really that hard.
People who aren't good in english, might have trouble reading it.
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The problem with saying that - true as it may be - is that us native speakers would be extremely frustrated if all of the message delays were long enough to allow non-native (more specifically non-proficient) speakers to take their time in getting what is said. Messages should take exactly as long to display as it takes their voice actor to say them, plus maybe a second. No more, no less. And that's a fairly concrete point to work from.
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Non-native/learning English speakers - F4 is your friend.
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F4 is fine when messages are relatively few. But when you have whole chains of messages, it just becomes annoying.
And heaven forbid that the deluge of messages should happen during combat. Not only does pressing F4 break the 'flow' of the game, but chances are you'll miss something important just the same.
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And? You don't have to do it if you don't want to.
Also, don't press F4 in a firefight. Yes, that breaks the flow of the game. Just do it after the dogfight's over.
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If one can be guarenteed that no important information was in messages, then I would agree. Don't use F4. Heck, don't even bother reading the messages in the first place.
But as it stands, messages are an important method of increasing the player's situational awareness, both in the context of the mission and sometimes for the whole campaign (like plot points and such.)
These cannot be ignored without having a detrimental affect on the playing experience.
As for F4'ing during a firefight... Mission critical information is too important to miss, and you never know if something like a hint will turn up while you're madly trying to shake off a wing of pursuers. (For example: A message from Command stating that reinforcements are now available for you to call in. Reinforcements that you could be in need of IMMEADIATELY.)
In any case, causing the player undue distress is a sign of bad mission design.
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F4 is not for BlackWater, because BlackWater does something different than any of the FS cannons.
This thing will need voices as a primary component, or it's not a finished campaign.
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Originally posted by BlackDove
Days of 56k are over though. It was okay that we split hairs over megabytes two years ago, but it's a different world today.
People who can't get the voices today - tough deal. Almost everyone is on cable today, a standard for a couple of hundreds of megabytes should really be set.
They don't offer cable everywhere :mad: and my USB Key only can hold 128MB.
In principle, I agree with you. In practice, though, the voice files should be in a separate VP.
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Originally posted by Primus
People who aren't good in english, might have trouble reading it.
Well, that is also a very good reason to have speech in campaigns, but i was more referring to realism.
Granted this is a game, but i don't like the fact that i get splashed by a group of Shivan Fighters because i was trying to read something that realistically would be spoken.
I know for a fact that if BWO doesn't have speech at all, i certainly won't be playing it.
I am sure it has a good story, but having to go into the message log to see what this person was saying because you had to dodge several missiles and laser blasts is a real put off.
In the real military, i doubt they expect fighter pilots to read conversations.
For example:
a pair of US Fighters are patrolling an area and the leaders' wingman notices a stealth fighter behind the leader and sends the message (no speech), by the time he has read it, he is dead.
This is why speech increases the realism of it and it makes you feel like you are accually there.
also, if you lot are wondering that if you did speech the 56k'ers wouldn't be able to get it because the filesize would be high....well:
1: If anyone has 56k modems still, not our fault, us broadband speed connection users shouldn't be limited because of them, also, 56k'ers in the UK would find it cheaper to have broadband.
2: Either way, this campaign is gonna be 100MB+, which is gonna screw up 56k'ers either way. (speech or no speech)
Just do the speech and make it an optional component.
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Hellraiser: So you haven't played Derelict, or Sync, or Homesick then?
Demanding voice-acting isn't going to get you very far. We'd all like to see BWO released with full voice-acting, as we would any campaign. The problem is it's not easy to do. You have to find enough people to act the parts, and act them well, you have to edit all the voice files to fit properly, and you have to do a lot of editing to get Vasudan voices to sound right/add static etc.
As for the "realism" argument... Freespace is entirely unrealistic. It's a sci-fi game. The mods are done by people in their spare time, because we want to do it. We don't get paid for this stuff.
I know that the BWO team will include voice-acting if it's feasible, but if they can't, then you can't say they've done a half-arsed job. BWO is probably the longest-running project ever, and the team are known for their skill and the quality of their work. It will be excellent, voice-acting or no.
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Originally posted by pyro-manic
Hellraiser: So you haven't played Derelict, or Sync, or Homesick then?
Demanding voice-acting isn't going to get you very far. We'd all like to see BWO released with full voice-acting, as we would any campaign. The problem is it's not easy to do. You have to find enough people to act the parts, and act them well, you have to edit all the voice files to fit properly, and you have to do a lot of editing to get Vasudan voices to sound right/add static etc.
As for the "realism" argument... Freespace is entirely unrealistic. It's a sci-fi game. The mods are done by people in their spare time, because we want to do it. We don't get paid for this stuff.
I know that the BWO team will include voice-acting if it's feasible, but if they can't, then you can't say they've done a half-arsed job. BWO is probably the longest-running project ever, and the team are known for their skill and the quality of their work. It will be excellent, voice-acting or no.
I tried Derelict, but i kepted dying or failing the mission because i was reading something being said and no i don't believe in pressing 'F4' to see what was said, i technically shouldn't need to.
I never heard of the other campaigns.
Also, i was not demanding speech for FS2 campaigns, i just want a complete campaign. (ie with speech)
If there is no speech in the campaign, i might as well call it a book because you tend to be reading more then playing, especially if BWO is as intense with dialog as is hinted.
But i guess no one accually understood what i was trying to point out.
Either way, its up to the makers if they want to add speech to the campaign, i just said that if they don't add speech, i don't play it....its as simple as that.
I will just replay the main campaign over and over and over again.
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There has never to my knowledge been a fully voice-acted campaign released for FS. That should tell you something about the difficulty of the task.
If you don't want to play things because they don't meet your (somewhat unrealistic) standards, that's fine, but you're missing out (and will continue to do so). If you're desparate to have voices, then do something about it - join a campaign as a voice actor and record some parts yourself.
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Actually, you can read something more quickly then you can speak it in most cases. For example it takes me about two seconds to read that sentence. I admit I read rapidly, so let's call it four seconds for most people. By way of contrast, it takes me about five seconds to speak it.
Yes, I did time this. Yes, I have no life.
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Easy there people.
We haven't got to the voices yet, so there's still plenty of room for success in that area.
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Originally posted by Hellraiser
I tried Derelict, but i kepted dying or failing the mission because i was reading something being said and no i don't believe in pressing 'F4' to see what was said, i technically shouldn't need to.
I never heard of the other campaigns.
Also, i was not demanding speech for FS2 campaigns, i just want a complete campaign. (ie with speech)
If there is no speech in the campaign, i might as well call it a book because you tend to be reading more then playing, especially if BWO is as intense with dialog as is hinted.
But i guess no one accually understood what i was trying to point out.
Either way, its up to the makers if they want to add speech to the campaign, i just said that if they don't add speech, i don't play it....its as simple as that.
I will just replay the main campaign over and over and over again.
Listening is easier than reading during flying. And (good) voice acting makes a campaign a lot better, but, c'mon, it's not that big of a deal. You're missing alot if you don't play campaigns which don't have speech.
:)
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Originally posted by High Max
Sounds to me that you are too picky. :nod:
I have 56k and I know it sucks but I can always go to the library or college to download a large file. As long as it's not more than 128MB because I have a flash drive that can hold only 128MB.
Yeah, it would be a huge mistake on the team's part to not make the BWO voices file a seperate file from the core file. [/B]
I tried Derelict with no speech and it was completely stupid and boring because i was spending more time in the message log then playing.
If i wasn't doing that, i was either getting splashed or the targets i needed to protect got splashed, so in this case, i am very picky.
campaign with speech = i try it
campaign without speech = i don't even think of trying it
its as simple as that.
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Originally posted by BlackDove
Easy there people.
We haven't got to the voices yet, so there's still plenty of room for success in that area.
I know for sure that a campaign as big as BWO will need speech because it supposedly has loads of dialog.
But as someone stated, this is being done for free and out of the creaters free time, which is good of them, i just hope you do put in speech because this campaign is very interesting, i just hope you don't kill it by not having speech as a optional component....well kill it to me anyway.
Only time will tell.
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Send me scripts and tell me how to do it and I'll speak lol... Don't know if it would be quality but I could try! That is where I have felt many other campaigns have fallen short. I hate pressing esc just to read some text! Piss... release two versions one with voice and one without... ???? Just a thought.
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Well, if i wanted to read dialog, i would read a book, i play a game to play it and now-a-days, about 90% of all games have speech in them.
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Of course, I would wager that most of those '90%' were produced by professional companies who, as a matter of course, had the time and money to invest in voice acting.
Oh, and I would also wager that most of those '90%' came on prerecorded media which could be easily bought from shops and thus saving the user the ned to download and such.
Not that I'm saying BWO (or any other FS2 project) could not do it either. But then one must consider the implications in time and effort required on the parts of both developers and users. (Developers must devote the time and effort making the voice pack, the user has to download it.)
And if you only do campaigns that have speech, your repertoire must be viturally non-existant, and so your ability to judge campaigns is nill as far as I'm concerned.
I for one will gladly settle for a dual version of BWO. A non-voice version which can be enhanced by a voice-pack add-on.
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I have tried campaigns without speech, but i have to constantly go into the message log to review what 'Command' said to do because i was too busy dodging 5+ Shivan Fighters hell bent on splashing me when the message was displayed.
Just imagine you being in a Perseus Intercept Fighter and you are being chased by 5+ Dragon Class Fighters and a Shivan capship that is close enough for its Anti Fighter Beams to hit you. (you would be concentrating on surviving....wouldn't you?)
That is where the speech brings you more into the game and it makes you feel like you are really there.
I ain't saying that each campaign should have speech that HAS to be used, just having it as a addon is good enough for me.
(even though now-a-days most people have Broadband and UK people that still have 56k modems, should try to get broadband, it would be considerably cheaper in the long run)
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If you are being pursued by 5 dragon fighters with a cap ship near you, I assure you, voices won't be able to help you there.
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well, i am sure it won't, its the principle of the thing, i would gladly give my life for my ship, even though that would make the mission a failure, but you know what i mean.
When there is speech, well acted speech, it brings you into the story and makes you feel you are really there.
A Speechless campaign doesn't do that and never will.
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Originally posted by Hellraiser
A Speechless campaign doesn't do that and never will.
Yes, they do. Honestly, if you're having trouble reading messages at the average speed, you might want to invest in a speed-reading course. Reading an average-length line shouldn't take any longer than a glance of a few seconds. Even if you're in combat, that's not really that much to ask; just slam your burners, weave a little, and read the message. Either that, or just hit F4 a few seconds later. As has been mentioned above, reading the lines takes less time than listening to someone say them, so I can't really see what your problem is. Regarding BWO, even without voiceacting, it's going to rock something fierce. I've been drooling over this campaign since I first found HLP. :D
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Originally posted by Mongoose
Yes, they do. Honestly, if you're having trouble reading messages at the average speed, you might want to invest in a speed-reading course. Reading an average-length line shouldn't take any longer than a glance of a few seconds. Even if you're in combat, that's not really that much to ask; just slam your burners, weave a little, and read the message. Either that, or just hit F4 a few seconds later. As has been mentioned above, reading the lines takes less time than listening to someone say them, so I can't really see what your problem is. Regarding BWO, even without voiceacting, it's going to rock something fierce. I've been drooling over this campaign since I first found HLP. :D
You're forgetting, though; acting. Part of the point - if not THE point - of voice acting is to create an atmosphere.
Another thing is that glancing away from the centre of the screen is actually a bad thing to have to do in immersive terms.....and often you can't pick and choose when to read messages, important stuff such as new objectives, or status reports, or new threats can occur at inopportune times when simply going a wee bit faster and more wobbly isn't a good solution.
i would not go as far as to say a voiceless campaign is unviable, but I do think having speech is a quantum leap ahead in terms of playability and specifically immersion.
IMHO.
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I don't play campaigns that don't have speech because it doesn't envelop you into the storyline without well-acted speech.
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Originally posted by Hellraiser
I don't play campaigns that don't have speech because it doesn't envelop you into the storyline without well-acted speech.
Well, your...err...kind of going to be limited on the amount of campaigns you will want to play.....
Id play BWO with or without speech, it wouldnt bother me either way allthough speech would be nice.
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Yeah, I know. It pretty much limits you to the main campaigns, and Destiny of Peace (a good, if short, campaign).
Oh, and Awakenings, if anyone can find the voice-acted version of that. And the first half of Derelict (again, if you can find the voiceacted part).
But that's about it, that I can think of.
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Originally posted by Hellraiser
I don't play campaigns that don't have speech because it doesn't envelop you into the storyline without well-acted speech.
Sorry for being a nag, but I still can't see how you can say that. That would be like saying that reading a book doesn't envelop you in the story simply because you can't hear the people's voices. Use a little imagination; play out the dialogue in your head. :) I've felt more immersed by some of the "voiceless" FS2 campaigns than by most other games I've played. Hearing the words isn't the important factor; getting into the plot is, and that's something you can do without any audio at all.
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Can I murder the next person that says "voices"?
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dude, a book is meant to be read. lol
besides with reading a book, you ain't got hoards of alien ships trying to splash you.
With a book you just use your imagination and since i don't have much of an imagination, i prefer movies over books and campaigns with speech over campaigns without speech.
Its just my opinion.
Its up to you what campaigns you play.
But my opinion is: no speech = no play
end of story.
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Hmm. Digging through the VWatch archives yielded a number of FS1 campaigns with voice acting. (General rule: if it's FS1, and bigger than 300k, it probably has voiceacting, since very few people knew how to do MODs in those days.)
I still say you're limiting yourself to an insane degree, but whatever.
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i am sure the BWO is gonna be really good, but its just my opinion and my choice.
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Originally posted by BlackDove
Can I murder the next person that says "voices"?
The voices in my head say yes, you can. :D
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Originally posted by High Max
It's best to deal with it and enjoy the rest of the story. If it's a really great campaign, then a minor drawback like lack of voices shouldn't make you not want to experience the campaign. Also, dialog during a mission isn't usually an issue because most of the dialog takes place when there isn't any fighting for the moment. Notice that it's usually before the first hostile arrives and it's usually calm when most of the chatter is happening. That's when most wingmen dialog takes place in my experience. :nod:
Minor Drawback??
I call it a Major Drawback.
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People. This debate isn't going anywhere. I suggest we let it be, so it won't get the chance to turn ugly :)
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Yeah, it would.
Not gonna happen. :D
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Originally posted by High Max
So how's beta testing going? Time for an update? I'm looking forward to this great campaign. It's gonna be fun to see the Golgathas in action;7. Too bad you guys won't make a sequel in which we fight the Shivans. It would've been nice to see the Golgathas fight the Shivans.:nod:;)
:nod: I'm looking forward to this one too.
(nice switch to original topic :D)
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i don't really care if its high quality i just don't want to read it...heck ill even do the talking if need be i just don't want to pause to read, takes away from the suspense
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Originally posted by High Max
Oh no, it appears that we are back off-topic again :D
sorry sorry dont' kill me plz
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Burn him! Burn the blasphemist!
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ahh it burns!!!!
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Feel the burn :cool: