Hard Light Productions Forums

Site Management => Site Support / Feedback => Topic started by: Andreas Rybak on February 03, 2021, 12:52:34 pm

Title: Discord issue
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 03, 2021, 12:52:34 pm
Would like to jump in that apparently the insanity which caused Mjn to leave the Discord also resulted in me being banned from said Discord. I’ve reached out to DahBlount and haven’t heard anything back one way or another. Have done nothing against the Discord rules, but I have a suspicion as to why I was banned - and if that suspicion is true, I’m extremely concerned that staff take the word of a certain person as gospel.

EDIT: Heard back from DahBlount. He still has no idea why I was banned or what’s going on with this. I’m even more concerned now.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: The E on February 03, 2021, 01:15:25 pm
You were banned due to credible accusations of being a holocaust denier. We do not tolerate that.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 03, 2021, 01:21:28 pm
You were banned due to credible accusations of being a holocaust denier. We do not tolerate that.

And by “credible accusations” you mean Phantom told you I was and you believed him. Phantom has been claiming for over a year now that I am a Nazi, and has repeatedly harassed and targeted me every time we end up crossing paths in the Discord. I have gone out of my way to avoid him because multiple people in the community have made it clear to me that he is a known ****-stirrer and troublemaker. The fact that you didn’t even message me in response to this ridiculous accusation - in fact, you blocked me when I so much as asked you why I was banned - and I spent a day and a half trying fruitlessly to get an answer from someone on HLP staff regarding why I was banned frankly is a sign of how off the rails things have gone.

This community’s been in existence for over twenty years. Why are we all now turning on each other like a tribe squabbling over the last remaining food and water?
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: The E on February 03, 2021, 01:30:29 pm
And by “credible accusations” you mean Phantom told you I was and you believed him. Phantom has been claiming for over a year now that I am a Nazi, and has repeatedly harassed and targeted me every time we end up crossing paths in the Discord. I have gone out of my way to avoid him because multiple people in the community have made it clear to me that he is a known ****-stirrer and troublemaker. The fact that you didn’t even message me in response to this ridiculous accusation - in fact, you blocked me when I so much as asked you why I was banned - and I spent a day and a half trying fruitlessly to get an answer from someone on HLP staff regarding why I was banned frankly is a sign of how off the rails things have gone.

This community’s been in existence for over twenty years. Why are we all now turning on each other like a tribe squabbling over the last remaining food and water?

What Phantom has said has been corroborated by several other people, all of whom are individually trustworthy.
This isn't a case where one single statement (or even repeated statements) by one person, regardless of who they are, is enough evidence. But when multiple people make similar accusations and provide screencaps, then that is enough for me.

Secondly, when I tried to message you back, Discord told me that a message could not be delivered since you didn't accept messages from people who are not on your friends list, so I blocked you.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 03, 2021, 01:59:29 pm
And by “credible accusations” you mean Phantom told you I was and you believed him. Phantom has been claiming for over a year now that I am a Nazi, and has repeatedly harassed and targeted me every time we end up crossing paths in the Discord. I have gone out of my way to avoid him because multiple people in the community have made it clear to me that he is a known ****-stirrer and troublemaker. The fact that you didn’t even message me in response to this ridiculous accusation - in fact, you blocked me when I so much as asked you why I was banned - and I spent a day and a half trying fruitlessly to get an answer from someone on HLP staff regarding why I was banned frankly is a sign of how off the rails things have gone.

This community’s been in existence for over twenty years. Why are we all now turning on each other like a tribe squabbling over the last remaining food and water?

What Phantom has said has been corroborated by several other people, all of whom are individually trustworthy.
This isn't a case where one single statement (or even repeated statements) by one person, regardless of who they are, is enough evidence. But when multiple people make similar accusations and provide screencaps, then that is enough for me.

Secondly, when I tried to message you back, Discord told me that a message could not be delivered since you didn't accept messages from people who are not on your friends list, so I blocked you.

I know who the individuals in question are. I understand they share certain similar political views and view certain jokes made in bad taste. Yes, I made politically insensitive comments well over a year and a half ago in order to deliberately rile up certain extremely sensitive users in a political channel that I left over a year ago. Said individuals(some of whom are online right now) have attempted to over the last year ensure I never do anything in the community again in a campaign of targeted harassment. The fact that these claims have been made to you only now when the community is riled up should be a clear sign there is insincerity and an agenda at work.

As for messaging me back - I know that’s not true because up to when I attempted to message you we were friends. I had added you on my new Discord same day I had made it and rejoined the community - was the only way I could have been able to message you as we weren’t in the same Discord. I attempted to message you after the fact, then checked and saw that you had unfriended me. Attempted to add you as a friend again and got the notification I couldn’t do so, indicating I had been blocked.

If it will unabashedly dispel these false claims about me, will go ahead and publicly state it here for the record - Yes, I believe the Holocaust happened. I believe Hitler actively engaged in a campaign of genocide against ethnic and religious Jews in Germany - Jews who just twenty years ago he had fought beside in the trenches of World War I - and allowed horrendous and egregious crimes against humanity to happen to them in an act of barbarism unparalleled. I pray that such an indication of the inherently evil nature of man never happens again, and actively disavow any suggestions that I support, praise, or otherwise hold a positive view of the Holocaust in any way, shape, or form.

I am extremely disappointed in the blatantly abusive moderation of the Discord, particularly the statement of the Discord owner to me in DMs that he has continually believed I have been a Nazi for years, has evidently tolerated it for this long, and only now has decided to ban me without any opportunity for me to be able to defend myself - additionally rejecting any defenses with “you’re still a Nazi.” I highly recommend a reevaluation of the Discord staff and potentially a complete refreshing of the Discord since I see no chance this will ever change.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: The E on February 03, 2021, 02:49:00 pm
I know who the individuals in question are. I understand they share certain similar political views and view certain jokes made in bad taste. Yes, I made politically insensitive comments well over a year and a half ago in order to deliberately rile up certain extremely sensitive users in a political channel that I left over a year ago. Said individuals(some of whom are online right now) have attempted to over the last year ensure I never do anything in the community again in a campaign of targeted harassment. The fact that these claims have been made to you only now when the community is riled up should be a clear sign there is insincerity and an agenda at work.

Oh, so you were only jokingly making statements that are holocaust denial.

Great. That clears that right up.

You are staying banned. I do not give a **** whether someone makes statements like that in jest or in all seriousness. There are lines that should never, ever be crossed, and that is one of them.


Also, let me make something abundantly clear. I have been aware of these accusations for a long time. I haven't taken any action on them, or recommended that action be taken, because off-site behaviour is a tricky issue.
The discord moderation staff has recently made the decision that, in egregious cases like these, we will ban for offsite behaviour. Thus, you were banned.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 03, 2021, 03:12:17 pm
Also, let me make something abundantly clear. I have been aware of these accusations for a long time. I haven't taken any action on them, or recommended that action be taken, because off-site behaviour is a tricky issue.

The discord moderation staff has recently made the decision that, in egregious cases like these, we will ban for offsite behaviour. Thus, you were banned.

I admit to making insensitive comments over a year ago on a discord full of toxicity I left. I have not at any point on HLP’s discord or forum actively engaged in anything capable of being in any way construed as any sort of Holocaust denial, and in fact in the post you quoted have actively expounded my true and sincere beliefs regarding an act of genocidal moral depravity - while simultaneously condemning my prior insensitive comments. I have even condemned them on the very very rare occasion that said comments have ever been brought up, clarified they do not represent my views, and have stated similarly to the above my belief that the Holocaust happened and was a targeted attack on the Jews by the Nazi regime in Germany.

It is inappropriate, especially a year to a year and a half after said event has happened, to ban someone for, again, insensitive jokes made not even on the Discord itself, based on policy made through a moderation change not publicly announced, implemented with no warning, and with no indication for nearly 36 hours to the banned person why they were banned.

Additionally, the creation of a dichotomic system where the rules of punishment in this community are different depending on what service you’re using and who the head admin is is ridiculous and only further encourages the splintering of the community. Again, with a community that’s been through 5 presidents over a long enough span of time for its members to be born and potentially graduate from college, this needs to stop and we need to look more at coming together instead of devaluing words and actively seeking to purge the community of elements certain people view as unwanted. That sort of behavior inevitably leads to an unironically fascistic system where ever less deviant views from those of the staff result in people getting purged from the community - and with many friends in the community  who have a diverse array of views, I don’t want to see that happen personally.

EDIT: was additionally pointed out to me that this system of banning people for past sins doesn’t allow for growth of individual users past prior maladjusted behavior and more to overarching normalcy, but instead punishes them for past misdeeds instead of considering how they are functioning now. By this logic, even one single misdeed should be eternally held against someone regardless as to whether they have apologized for it, rejected it, and anathematized their past jokes - which would damn many people.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: MP-Ryan on February 03, 2021, 05:25:12 pm
CORRECTION - This post content references a different user recently banned due to Holocaust denial.
-

I've seen the screenshots.  While the forum and the discord are managed slightly differently (due to the nature of the medium), the principles are the same, and if you had made similar comments on the forums in any capacity you would count yourself lucky not to have been banned on the spot.

Holocaust denial and minimization is unacceptable.  This is not a matter of difference of opinion, and I don't particularly care if you think this was nuanced or you think you have grown, nor do I particularly care whether you viewed it as a joke.  You made public comments that minimize one of the worst genocides in history, and the worst in modern memory, and you have now experienced consequences of that in a medium in which real-time moderation is difficult.  The fact that you have not been banned on the forums speaks more to that fact that many of us were originally unaware of these comments and that we can closely watch your posting behaviour here, which is far less transient.  I would urge you to take this as a lesson in social consequences of your actions and learn from it instead of rules lawyering, because if you prefer not to have fragmented participation in this community we can absolutely accommodate a ban from the forums as well if that's preferred.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: xenocartographer on February 03, 2021, 05:52:06 pm
So, I have my own perspectives and biases on this issue. I'm operating with limited information. I believe my reasoning holds up based on the information available to me, but I like to believe I'm a rational person. I recognize that I'm speculating, so if there's any information that contradicts any of these points, please bring it up and I'll change my position.

That being said, based on what I do know, there's a lot about this that doesn't smell right to me. I'm going to dig into it and hope either party can provide some answers. First off, there's this exchange:

Quote
You were banned due to credible accusations of being a holocaust denier. We do not tolerate that.
Quote
If it will unabashedly dispel these false claims about me, will go ahead and publicly state it here for the record - Yes, I believe the Holocaust happened. I believe Hitler actively engaged in a campaign of genocide against ethnic and religious Jews in Germany - Jews who just twenty years ago he had fought beside in the trenches of World War I - and allowed horrendous and egregious crimes against humanity to happen to them in an act of barbarism unparalleled. I pray that such an indication of the inherently evil nature of man never happens again, and actively disavow any suggestions that I support, praise, or otherwise hold a positive view of the Holocaust in any way, shape, or form.
Quote
Oh, so you were only jokingly making statements that are holocaust denial. Great. That clears that right up.

There's an issue here that has nothing to do with the ban, and Andreas was right to object to it. The E's first post all but calls Andreas a Holocaust denier, which is basically equivalent to calling him a card-carrying Neo-Nazi. It's a profoundly serious condemnation and should be treated as such. By Andreas' own admission, he made "insensitive jokes" for immature reasons. That isn't in dispute. But it is not equivalent to denying the Holocaust, as E implied. And even if Andreas had held that position at the time, he doesn't now. Either way, unless the situation is profoundly different than it seems, calling Andreas a "Holocaust denier" was inappropriate.

Secondly, there's E's claim to have blocked Andreas because they couldn't reply. On the surface, this doesn't really add up. Unless Andreas were spamming E, that isn't a particularly sensible reason to block him in the first place. But "friending" is mutual on Discord, and unless they were "friends" in the first place, Andreas shouldn't have been able to message E in the first place. Since both parties agree that Andreas messaged E after the ban, they must have been friends, so E should have been able to respond to Andreas. (Discord also allows DMs between people who have a server in common, whether or not they're friends, but if that were the case, E should still have been able to reply to Andreas.)

None of that's directly related to the ban. What is definitely related is how strangely this ban was handled. As far as I'm aware, no one was notified of the ban. I performed server-wide searches on Discord for "ban," "banned", "kick", "remove", "suspend", and even "hammer" and found no relevant results. Andreas was not notified of the ban - neither why he was banned nor even that he had been. But, most tellingly, he DM'd one of the other Discord moderators to ask if he had been, and that moderator didn't know.

Let that sink in a bit. A ban is the single strongest tool in a moderator's toolbox. They're compared to Mjolnir for a reason. For this other moderator to be unaware that the ban had happened implies that E invoked a moderator's strongest tool without seeking the consent of, nor even notifying, the other moderators. If E had even posted "I just banned Andreas" in some moderator-only server, then this other mod would have been aware. They would certainly have been aware if there were any discussion about it. That implies that The E performed the ban unilaterally and swept it under the rug.

Why?

Andreas has repeatedly stated that the comments he was banned for were made a year ago. So far, E hasn't denied that. That brings us to the heart of this case. If Andreas' behavior wasn't ban-worthy a year ago, and hasn't been ban-worthy in the mean time, where did this come from? So far, both parties have been content to leave unchallenged the narrative that Andreas' behavior has been fine since then. If that's the case, why ban him now?

What motivated a immediate, unilateral ban a year after the fact?



E, like I said above, I know I only have one side of the story. So far, I've tried to make it clear why the information that's available to me doesn't add up, but I know that's not all the information. If Andreas did or said something problematic recently, for example, that totally changes the picture. So, please, if you know anything like that, please share it.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: MP-Ryan on February 03, 2021, 05:59:26 pm
CORRECTION - This post content references a different user recently banned due to Holocaust denial.
-

MageKing posted that the user MorGy was banned immediately after he did so and why.  If Andreas would like us to post the screenshots that led to this action, we can certainly accommodate that request, but I will caution that that places those screenshots fully in public domain and the Streisand Effect is a very real thing that he may not want to experience.  We will leave that up to him, however.

I can't speak to why DahBlount was unaware - it is possible he missed the staff discussion, which is not his fault as those chats tend to move quickly.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: xenocartographer on February 03, 2021, 06:07:14 pm
So, this definitely feels like somewhere where there might be information I'm unaware of, and please do correct me if that's the case. How would you know if there was a staff discussion? You don't appear to be a Discord moderator, and Andreas wasn't banned from the forum.

Are these screenshots the ones from a year ago?
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: MP-Ryan on February 03, 2021, 06:15:07 pm
My apologies - I am informed the matter of Andreas is a separate one from the Holocaust-denying discord user I was referencing.  There are communication channels between the forum and Discord moderation staff (and some overlap), so we are privy to some of each others' discussion.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: xenocartographer on February 03, 2021, 06:20:49 pm
Gotcha. Okay, that actually does go a long way towards clearing things up in my head, thank you!
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 03, 2021, 06:31:54 pm
I've seen the screenshots.  While the forum and the discord are managed slightly differently (due to the nature of the medium), the principles are the same, and if you had made similar comments on the forums in any capacity you would count yourself lucky not to have been banned on the spot.

Holocaust denial and minimization is unacceptable.  This is not a matter of difference of opinion, and I don't particularly care if you think this was nuanced or you think you have grown, nor do I particularly care whether you viewed it as a joke.  You made public comments that minimize one of the worst genocides in history, and the worst in modern memory, and you have now experienced consequences of that in a medium in which real-time moderation is difficult.  The fact that you have not been banned on the forums speaks more to that fact that many of us were originally unaware of these comments and that we can closely watch your posting behaviour here, which is far less transient.  I would urge you to take this as a lesson in social consequences of your actions and learn from it instead of rules lawyering, because if you prefer not to have fragmented participation in this community we can absolutely accommodate a ban from the forums as well if that's preferred.

Indeed - if I had made comments here a year to a year and a half ago on the forum, I would have been banned. Same would have been justifiable if I had made such on the Discord directly. I didn't. I made both on a Discord that was neither the HLP Discord nor the forum. Again, this was a year to a year and a half ago(it's been long enough) - and as you yourself have said, "Discord feeds everyone's worst impulses," and "We aren't the thought police and I'm not about to start administering a personality test to prospective registrants," I have not made any similarly insensitive comments in the community in the entire time between when those comments were previously made and the present day - or in my time in the community for that matter.

Your unwillingness to even consider that I as an individual have grown and evolved from having been immature enough to flippantly make such comments is quite frankly a problem. It symbolizes quite plainly that people are irrevocably damned the moment they do something stupid and no period of time, even time in which the user has spent contributing to the community, is enough to redeem them. Ignorant of the fact that a Discord is only a semi-public place whose comments are visible solely to those who are in it - and thus is not truly "public" - what you have just said is that any user can hunt down prior comments of an abhorrent nature, joking, serious, or otherwise, and use them as a pretext to, regardless of time passed between said comments, get them banned from HLP for having said such. If anything, you've just created a call to arms certain users can and will use as an excuse to get other people in this community exiled.

As is, I prefer the 'fragmented participation' be unitary in that what happens outside HLP Discord and forums is irrelevant to what happens inside HLP Discord and forums, given that's been working for the FS2 community across the better part of two decades and hasn't caused us to catastrophically implode like countless other gaming communities that are half to a quarter of our age.

I'm confused, however - So was this MorGy guy banned from the HLP Discord for, in said Discord, having denied the holocaust? Because that's what I'm accused of having done and what I have blatantly repudiated in an earlier post, so not exactly sure what he was banned for aside from "being a Nazi," as MageKing said.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Mito [PL] on February 03, 2021, 06:40:23 pm
Just a quick notice, Rybak's previous post had an edit that happened after the post under it was written.


I feel obliged to mention that The E is deeply involved with a political agenda that seeks to outright remove all people who have shown the capacity to even remotely consider anything related to fascism from every single social circle they're capable of, and has proven that over and over in the HLP Discord, the forums and some private conversations. If this wasn't enough, on the HLP Discord he also publicly endorsed real life violence against people who have committed some speculated act of "supporting fascism". Given his personal affiliations he bragged about there, he's actually trying to make that happen, too.
Oh, also remember, superheroes are a deeply fascist concept.

(Rybak, be on the lookout in case an angry German decided to visit you in some dark alley with a baseball bat twenty years into the future)

Because the eternal march to eradicate fascism knows no boundaries, understands no mercy and cares not for collateral damage or the chance for redemption. And at some point, it becomes its own flavour of fascism.


Add to that the latest unspoken agreement that members of the HLP Discord are free to verbally abuse others in a manner very resembling some aspects of domestic violence because of some very arbitrary and unimportant misdemeanors (that I believe I have explained my stance on multiple times, and I think it to be a bit related to people becoming very stubborn with some strange or unacceptable beliefs), and the Hard Light Productions Discord server becomes a quite toxic place.

Edit: speaking of - when do the contents of private messages become ground for bans? I just can't wait!
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Mongoose on February 03, 2021, 06:42:15 pm
Mito, I suggest you remove yourself from this conversation, as your contribution to it is neither productive nor helpful. There is more than enough drama flying around without actively adding to it.

(Also, just for the record, The E was not the one who issued this ban in the first place.)
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 03, 2021, 06:48:06 pm
Mito, I suggest you remove yourself from this conversation, as your contribution to it is neither productive nor helpful. There is more than enough drama flying around without actively adding to it.

I admittedly have to disagree, as Mito was from my recollection one of the individuals in the Discord in question where the screenshots of my inappropriate comments were made and, from my recollection, was the owner of said server at that point in time.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Mongoose on February 03, 2021, 06:50:08 pm
Edit: speaking of - when do the contents of private messages become ground for bans? I just can't wait!

If a PM on HLP contains objectionable content, then it can absolutely be grounds for a ban. The same would be true if someone abused another member via an off-site method. That should go without saying.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Mongoose on February 03, 2021, 06:51:57 pm
Pardon the double-post:

I admittedly have to disagree, as Mito was from my recollection one of the individuals in the Discord in question where the screenshots of my inappropriate comments were made and, from my recollection, was the owner of said server at that point in time.

He's attempting to stir up **** solely for its own sake, so no, the fact that he was present at the time does not make his post any more welcome. If he had chosen to contribute in a rational manner, that would be a different story.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: General Battuta on February 03, 2021, 07:06:27 pm
OP, serious question. What is your opinion of The Turner Diaries? I have a hard time believing that someone in deep enough to read and recommend The Turner Diaries would be able to make a full turnaround in a year. I guess it is possible, but I, personally...I dunno, I guess it just gives me bad vibes.

I understand the concerns about eternal damnation for temporary sins. But I do also think that it's right to draw a hard line around certain behavior, and distributing Turner Diaries bootlegs is in the camp of full-on advocacy and evangelism for anti-Semitism.

For whatever it's worth I do think it is good that you have publicly repudiated Holocaust denial.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: General Battuta on February 03, 2021, 07:11:36 pm
There's an issue here that has nothing to do with the ban, and Andreas was right to object to it. The E's first post all but calls Andreas a Holocaust denier, which is basically equivalent to calling him a card-carrying Neo-Nazi. It's a profoundly serious condemnation and should be treated as such. By Andreas' own admission, he made "insensitive jokes" for immature reasons. That isn't in dispute. But it is not equivalent to denying the Holocaust, as E implied. And even if Andreas had held that position at the time, he doesn't now. Either way, unless the situation is profoundly different than it seems, calling Andreas a "Holocaust denier" was inappropriate.

How exactly would you characterize the claim that only a million people died in the Holocaust?
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 03, 2021, 07:18:26 pm
OP, serious question. What is your opinion of The Turner Diaries? I have a hard time believing that someone in deep enough to read and recommend The Turner Diaries would be able to make a full turnaround in a year. I guess it is possible, but I, personally...I dunno, I guess it just gives me bad vibes.

I understand the concerns about eternal damnation for temporary sins. But I do also think that it's right to draw a hard line around certain behavior, and distributing Turner Diaries bootlegs is in the camp of full-on advocacy and evangelism for anti-Semitism.

For whatever it's worth I do think it is good that you have publicly repudiated Holocaust denial.

Cannot tell if 4chan user or redditor - that said, anything that, keyword could, be gained from reading the Turner Diaries is completely wiped out by the sheer ludicrousness of the book. Even ignoring who wrote it and the ideology he was seeking to promulgate, it's just, well... bad. "Oh yeah this guy joins the resistance and becomes part of a super secret cabal and he and he alone can save people from the enemy" is one of the dumbest plots for a book I have ever met, clearly painting the main character as the writer's Gary Stu with more vim and vigor than Fifty Shades of Grey's Anastasia. There are better survivalist books, there are better fictional books - there are better books in general than this piece of white power fapfiction, and again, that's excluding the fact the guy who wrote it was founder of the National Alliance neo-Nazi group and the most prominent white nationalist up to the time of his death.

tl;dr 2/10 would not recommend reading. Additionally, it is worth pointing out that as early as April 30th of 2019, the same day the jokes and attempt to rile people up(I believe the word I used was 'troll'), I stated in the same location that I truly believed six million Jews had died in the Holocaust. Which means that this ban is for something not a year old, not a year and a half old, but nearly 2 years old that's had nothing happen.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: xenocartographer on February 03, 2021, 07:21:14 pm
How exactly would you characterize the claim that only a million people died in the Holocaust?

Holocaust denial.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Nightmare on February 03, 2021, 07:24:16 pm
If this wasn't enough, on the HLP Discord he also publicly endorsed real life violence against people who have committed some speculated act of "supporting fascism".

Do you have any evidence for that? It's an extreme strong accusation you're making there so you should provide evidence. Promoting political violence of any sort is an absolute no-go (and against both Discords as well as HLP ToS, what can get your account deleted by Discord); leave alone a complete disqualification for any kind of staff membership.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: General Battuta on February 03, 2021, 07:25:21 pm
Cannot tell if 4chan user or redditor

Child, we made 4chan.

Do you have any evidence for that? It's an extreme strong accusation you're making there so you should provide evidence. Promoting political violence of any sort is an absolute no-go (and against both Discords as well as HLP ToS, what can get your account deleted by Discord); leave alone a complete disqualification for any kind of staff membership.

Nazis should be punched in the face and this statement should be welcome on any platform run by decent people.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 03, 2021, 07:28:15 pm
Nazis should be punched in the face and this statement should be welcome on any platform run by decent people.

Inquiry to determine whether this is a potential double standard or not - does this mean that the statement "commies should be punched in the face" or "punching commies is good and should be encouraged at all times and in all places" should be welcome on any platform run by decent people?
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Rhymes on February 03, 2021, 07:28:15 pm
If this wasn't enough, on the HLP Discord he also publicly endorsed real life violence against people who have committed some speculated act of "supporting fascism".

Do you have any evidence for that? It's an extreme strong accusation you're making there so you should provide evidence. Promoting political violence of any sort is an absolute no-go (and against both Discords as well as HLP ToS, what can get your account deleted by Discord); leave alone a complete disqualification for any kind of staff membership.

Punching Nazis is good and should be encouraged at all times and in all places.

Inquiry to determine whether this is a potential double standard or not - does this mean that the statement "commies should be punched in the face" should be welcome on any platform run by decent people?

No because communism does not advocate genocide as a core tenet of its ideology. Nazism does. Very simple.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: General Battuta on February 03, 2021, 07:30:19 pm
Nazis should be punched in the face and this statement should be welcome on any platform run by decent people.

Inquiry to determine whether this is a potential double standard or not - does this mean that the statement "commies should be punched in the face" or "punching commies is good and should be encouraged at all times and in all places" should be welcome on any platform run by decent people?

I don't know. Stalinists and Maoists, maybe.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Nightmare on February 03, 2021, 07:30:56 pm
If this wasn't enough, on the HLP Discord he also publicly endorsed real life violence against people who have committed some speculated act of "supporting fascism".

Do you have any evidence for that? It's an extreme strong accusation you're making there so you should provide evidence. Promoting political violence of any sort is an absolute no-go (and against both Discords as well as HLP ToS, what can get your account deleted by Discord); leave alone a complete disqualification for any kind of staff membership.

Punching Nazis is good and should be encouraged at all times and in all places.

Guys. We're not talking about banning nazi-assholes from HLP what is a must have (but requires proper evidence) but promoting political violence IRL.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Rhymes on February 03, 2021, 07:32:13 pm
Guys. We're not talking about banning nazi-assholes from HLP what is a must have (but requires proper evidence) but promoting political violence IRL.

Punching Nazis should be encouraged at all times and in all places.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on February 03, 2021, 07:32:31 pm
Guys. We're not talking about banning nazi-assholes from HLP what is a must have (but requires proper evidence) but promoting political violence IRL.
IRL, Nazis should be punched in the face.

EDIT: Whoops, I just realized I forgot to convey any of my thoughts on, you know, the point of this thread here instead of just on Discord, so:

There are certain things that it doesn't matter where you said them or why—they cross a line and there must be consequences. "Pretending to be a nazi to troll someone" is functionally indistinguishable from "being a nazi". "Ironic antisemitism" is still antisemitism. I can't read your mind; I don't know if you were kidding or not. For all I know, you did mean those things, and just realized that you couldn't admit to such without suffering social consequences, like Schrödinger's Douchebag (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s%20Douchebag).

What I do know is that I've never once "jokingly" or "accidentally" denied the holocaust. Ever. In my entire life. And you never once denied saying those things. So while I don't know why you said them, I do know that you said them, and anybody who will do that is not somebody I can tolerate on the HLP Discord.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: xenocartographer on February 03, 2021, 07:33:33 pm
Hey, everyone, let's not descend into squabbling about political labels. They mean different things to different people, and arguing based on them is unlikely to be productive from any perspective!

e: Er, referring to "Communist," not "Nazi"...
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 03, 2021, 07:37:54 pm
If this wasn't enough, on the HLP Discord he also publicly endorsed real life violence against people who have committed some speculated act of "supporting fascism".

Do you have any evidence for that? It's an extreme strong accusation you're making there so you should provide evidence. Promoting political violence of any sort is an absolute no-go (and against both Discords as well as HLP ToS, what can get your account deleted by Discord); leave alone a complete disqualification for any kind of staff membership.

Punching Nazis is good and should be encouraged at all times and in all places.

Guys. We're not talking about banning nazi-assholes from HLP what is a must have (but requires proper evidence) but promoting political violence IRL.

Not going to lie, if their concept for promotion of physical violence is to specifically target any sort of political ideology, regardless of said ideology's innate abhorrent tenets, then by the definition of "political violence,"1 Battuta and Rhymes would have promoted such.

That said, admittedly this is getting a bit off topic regarding my issues with being banned from the Discord for having insensitively joked nearly 2 years ago on a discord that's not the HLP discord, with nothing having happened prior to yesterday regarding said insensitive jokes as I continued to contribute to the community.

1: https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/political-violence
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Nightmare on February 03, 2021, 07:39:47 pm
Hey, everyone, let's not descend into squabbling about political labels. They mean different things to different people, and arguing based on them is unlikely to be productive from any perspective!

e: Er, referring to "Communist," not "Nazi"...

I wasn't talking about labeling anybody, I've got better things to do than that. Promoting political violence is an outright crime in all civilized countries, and ironically one of the reasons Nazis are rightfully being hated for.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: xenocartographer on February 03, 2021, 07:45:05 pm
No, I'm sorry, it felt like there was going to be an argument about what defining "Communist," and I was trying to to head that off, but the discussion had already moved on.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 03, 2021, 07:46:03 pm
For the record, since there’s a lot of confusion into which Andras is injecting misinformation:

1) All the events discussed took place in an unofficial ‘HLP politics’ discord, started by Mito* after politics was banned from the official HLP discord. It was populated entirely by active HLP members. You can call it ‘offsite drama’, but it wasn’t exactly far offsite.

2) Andreas spent hours arguing, in some detail, that the Holocaust killed 1/5th as many Jews as the historical consensus says and that their populations recovered quickly afterwards. He only started claiming that this was a ‘joke’ to ‘troll’ us days later.

3) He did, in fairness, say that the Turner Diaries was 60% puerile nonsense when he linked a bootleg PDF and told us to see for ourselves. He also said that the other 40% was good commentary on the ‘decadence’ of contemporary Western society. You may notice a numerical theme emerging here.

*Mito had nothing to do with any of these views and I feel the need to say so explicitly.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 03, 2021, 07:50:08 pm
There are certain things that it doesn't matter where you said them or why—they cross a line and there must be consequences. "Pretending to be a nazi to troll someone" is functionally indistinguishable from "being a nazi". "Ironic antisemitism" is still antisemitism. I can't read your mind; I don't know if you were kidding or not. For all I know, you did mean those things, and just realized that you couldn't admit to such without suffering social consequences, like Schrödinger's Douchebag (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s%20Douchebag).

What I do know is that I've never once "jokingly" or "accidentally" denied the holocaust. Ever. In my entire life. And you never once denied saying those things. So while I don't know why you said them, I do know that you said them, and anybody who will do that is not somebody I can tolerate on the HLP Discord.

The precise words I used after saying such nearly two years ago was, quote, "I actually do believe six million Jews died in the Holocaust." I then repeated that "I do in fact believe six million Jews died."  This was the exact same day as said comments I was banned for were made. Six months later, after one of the individuals again attempted to claim I was a holocaust denier in the same chat, I stated again that quote, "I'm not a Holocaust denier." I have stuck to what I have said since as my previous post of believing the Holocaust happened and that Hitler was an evil man for nearly two years, regardless as to how many times Phantom has continued over said near-2 years to accuse me of such. There is no reason in the present day to doubt my views when two years of actions support the consistent narrative I have said again and again over that time. That is why I have a problem with this ban.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Mongoose on February 03, 2021, 07:53:50 pm
I am going to lock this thread temporarily because quite frankly it's generating a flood of reports and has become a massive headache. It will be unlocked in the near future once things have settled a bit.
Title: Re: I Just Wanted A Chance To Explain Myself
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 04, 2021, 12:59:13 am
The fact the person who's harassed me with calls of "Nazi" and "holocaust denier" for almost 2 years is the same person who set the **** off with Mjn that drove him off HLP and the same person who tried to and successfully incited a group of people to get Goober deadminned is very concerning. Once is unintentional, twice is coincidence, three times is a habit, and I would recommend a reexamination of said person's presence in the community if they've continued to repeatedly follow this line of behavior.
Title: Re: Re: I Just Wanted A Chance To Explain Myself
Post by: karajorma on February 04, 2021, 01:31:29 am
The fact the person who's harassed me with calls of "Nazi" and "holocaust denier" for almost 2 years

While I'm not going to make excuses for that behaviour and we are discussing several issues surrounding both of these matters internally, the fact remains that you wouldn't have faced two years of being called "Nazi" and "holocaust denier" if you hadn't thought it would be fun to pretend to be one.

Still think it was a good idea? Still think it was funny?
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: The E on February 04, 2021, 01:50:23 am
There's an issue here that has nothing to do with the ban, and Andreas was right to object to it. The E's first post all but calls Andreas a Holocaust denier, which is basically equivalent to calling him a card-carrying Neo-Nazi. It's a profoundly serious condemnation and should be treated as such. By Andreas' own admission, he made "insensitive jokes" for immature reasons. That isn't in dispute. But it is not equivalent to denying the Holocaust, as E implied. And even if Andreas had held that position at the time, he doesn't now. Either way, unless the situation is profoundly different than it seems, calling Andreas a "Holocaust denier" was inappropriate.

It is my admittedly un-lawyerly opinion that the statements under discussion fulfill at least some points of the german legal definition of holocaust denial.

Quote
Secondly, there's E's claim to have blocked Andreas because they couldn't reply. On the surface, this doesn't really add up. Unless Andreas were spamming E, that isn't a particularly sensible reason to block him in the first place. But "friending" is mutual on Discord, and unless they were "friends" in the first place, Andreas shouldn't have been able to message E in the first place. Since both parties agree that Andreas messaged E after the ban, they must have been friends, so E should have been able to respond to Andreas. (Discord also allows DMs between people who have a server in common, whether or not they're friends, but if that were the case, E should still have been able to reply to Andreas.)

He started messaging me at 1951 on February 3rd. I blocked him, out of reflex more than anything, to give myself time to think about my response. When I came to a conclusion, I unblocked him and tried to message him, at which point discord informed me that the message could not be delivered.

Quote
None of that's directly related to the ban. What is definitely related is how strangely this ban was handled. As far as I'm aware, no one was notified of the ban. I performed server-wide searches on Discord for "ban," "banned", "kick", "remove", "suspend", and even "hammer" and found no relevant results. Andreas was not notified of the ban - neither why he was banned nor even that he had been. But, most tellingly, he DM'd one of the other Discord moderators to ask if he had been, and that moderator didn't know.

Let that sink in a bit. A ban is the single strongest tool in a moderator's toolbox. They're compared to Mjolnir for a reason. For this other moderator to be unaware that the ban had happened implies that E invoked a moderator's strongest tool without seeking the consent of, nor even notifying, the other moderators. If E had even posted "I just banned Andreas" in some moderator-only server, then this other mod would have been aware. They would certainly have been aware if there were any discussion about it. That implies that The E performed the ban unilaterally and swept it under the rug.

Just to be ABSOLUTELY BLOODY CLEAR about this: I did NOT issue that ban. I did vote for a ban in the relevant discussion in our internal modchat, but I explicitly did NOT act unilaterally.

Quote
Andreas has repeatedly stated that the comments he was banned for were made a year ago. So far, E hasn't denied that. That brings us to the heart of this case. If Andreas' behavior wasn't ban-worthy a year ago, and hasn't been ban-worthy in the mean time, where did this come from? So far, both parties have been content to leave unchallenged the narrative that Andreas' behavior has been fine since then. If that's the case, why ban him now?

What motivated a immediate, unilateral ban a year after the fact?

We also recently banned another member of the discord for similar statements made in another community (except in their case, they are unrepentant and never fell back on "it was just a joke to trigger the libs"). We held off on that ban because we were informed by members of that other community that us issuing a ban would upset some delicate balance on their end, and because banning over off-site behaviour is a massive grey area.
Over the past few weeks, we had some discussions about what moderation should be, what community standards should be, and we made the decision to issue bans for known people with nazi leanings.
As Fusion's statements were well-documented, and seeing as how we are unwilling to entertain "I was just joking" as a credible defence or excuse, the ban happened.
Title: Re: I Just Wanted A Chance To Explain Myself
Post by: General Battuta on February 04, 2021, 08:08:58 am
The fact the person who's harassed me with calls of "Nazi" and "holocaust denier" for almost 2 years is the same person who set the **** off with Mjn that drove him off HLP and the same person who tried to and successfully incited a group of people to get Goober deadminned is very concerning.

I don't think grouping yourself with Goober is doing yourself any favors.

The fact the person who's harassed me with calls of "Nazi" and "holocaust denier" for almost 2 years

While I'm not going to make excuses for that behaviour and we are discussing several issues surrounding both of these matters internally, the fact remains that you wouldn't have faced two years of being called "Nazi" and "holocaust denier" if you hadn't thought it would be fun to pretend to be one.

Still think it was a good idea? Still think it was funny?

Yeah, this is kind of my take. You ****ed up and you've got to live with the consequences. It's just a game discord.
Title: Re: Re: I Just Wanted A Chance To Explain Myself
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 04, 2021, 12:08:49 pm
Still think it was a good idea? Still think it was funny?

As I said on Discord during our conversation when this thread was locked, No, I don't. Just wanted to reiterate that here publicly.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: -Joshua- on February 04, 2021, 01:18:35 pm
Why did you wait until after a ban to walk back from it? It's not like you weren't called out on it before.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Mito [PL] on February 04, 2021, 01:46:30 pm
Now, before I make a longer post as a response to the bunch of posts that popped up today...

Joshua, do you really think that the previous acts of randomly pinging Rybak with the intent being a blatant invitation to yet another verbal assault were equal to just asking him about these past events? Especially when you could also DM him, instead of just tossing that into the HLP Discord?

In a way, he handled your bristling for a fight better than most of us.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: -Joshua- on February 04, 2021, 01:49:43 pm
I remember having conversations about this and the response was always either a) it was a joke or b) outright denial. So I was kinda waiting for him to act unilaterally.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 04, 2021, 02:04:10 pm
Why did you wait until after a ban to walk back from it? It's not like you weren't called out on it before.

I walked back from it on the 30th of April, 2019. Multiple times. And walked back from it on the rare occasions Phantom attempted to call me a Nazi in HLP Discord proper. I walked back from it in my prior statement in this thread. I have continually indicated over nearly 2 years that these are not my personal views and, again, that I believe the Holocaust happened. I didn’t “wait until after a ban.”
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on February 04, 2021, 02:23:38 pm
And walked back from it on the rare occasions Phantom attempted to call me a Nazi in HLP Discord proper.
As far as I can tell, this is untrue; saying that PH calling you a nazi doesn't make it true isn't "walking back" anything.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: -Joshua- on February 04, 2021, 02:26:06 pm
Quote
I walked back from it on the 30th of April, 2019. Multiple times.

I was there. I recall that you claimed to be joking and denied that what you were doing was holocaust denial.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 04, 2021, 02:29:19 pm
And walked back from it on the rare occasions Phantom attempted to call me a Nazi in HLP Discord proper.
As far as I can tell, this is untrue; saying that PH calling you a nazi doesn't make it true isn't "walking back" anything.
When he did so I actively denied such. Again I have consistently stated and indicated through my actions over the last near-2 years that I believe the holocaust happened and am not a Nazi. I have not at any point over said time indicated otherwise in HLP's discord, forums, or any affiliated DMs or other discords.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: General Battuta on February 04, 2021, 02:31:51 pm
Now, before I make a longer post as a response to the bunch of posts that popped up today...

Joshua, do you really think that the previous acts of randomly pinging Rybak with the intent being a blatant invitation to yet another verbal assault were equal to just asking him about these past events? Especially when you could also DM him, instead of just tossing that into the HLP Discord?

In a way, he handled your bristling for a fight better than most of us.

Maybe it would be better for your mental health if you just didn't get involved in this. You've already harassed a long time community member into quitting his role.


Most people manage to go through life with zero Holocaust denial in any form. If you have changed as a person and do genuinely regret your actions, that is fantastic and so much better than most people manage. But I think a Discord ban is a fairly small price to pay. It is, again, only a video game discord for a tiny community.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: General Battuta on February 04, 2021, 02:33:10 pm
Frankly I think this thread would best be served by the discord mods issuing a final judgment and declaring the matter closed.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: General Battuta on February 04, 2021, 02:44:24 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/5Y41dGN.png)

Bringing Modders Together
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 04, 2021, 03:01:07 pm
But I think a Discord ban is a fairly small price to pay. It is, again, only a video game discord for a tiny community.

Then why a ban if the Discord is so insignificant? Functionally the Discord is additionally the more active portion of the community in contrast to the much slower forums, and is where people receive their direct updates regarding Knossos, FSO, the MediaVPs, new campaigns, and campaign updates. The 'small price to pay' has been the suggestion I am a Nazi having been promulgated to such a degree that the Discord owner's comments when I asked about the ban functionally boiled down to "yeah, I’ve always thought you were a Nazi, you can’t convince me otherwise and you can’t defend yourself, **** you you’re not getting unbanned." I have behaved properly on HLP for the near two years that has happened - again, why permanently purge me from the active part of the community for past sins that I have admitted and apologized over across 2 years?

As I've mentioned, this sets a very dangerous precedent that I wholly expect people to abuse in order to get people they don't like removed for past misdeeds.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: General Battuta on February 04, 2021, 03:43:08 pm
It is tough to tell genuine change from appeasement (if you'll forgive the cheap pun).

I, personally, look a little warily on your attempts to build a narrative linking your discord banning (for past hate speech) to Mjn's sudden departure (for, basically, overreacting to well meant criticism: a case of everyone being catastrophically poor at emotional intelligence) to Goober's de-adminning (for unrepentantly threatening legal action and violating the long-standing HLP moderation standard of 'don't delete posts' and 'don't moderate discussions you are involved in', not just once but over a period of years) to some nebulous future threat of trumped-up personal vendettas. These are all very different cases, handled in many cases by different people. This community is extraordinarily slow to ban; there are people who vocally loathe the moderators and do almost nothing except complain about them who are still freely posting. There are people who've returned from lengthy bans and are back to participating.

So I'm not personally super sympathetic to the case that you're going to create some kind of chilling effect on posting Turner Diaries bootlegs. If anything the opposite seems to be the case; we have had two people banned recently for posting Nazi ****, yourself included, and a bunch of people are upset about it! And one of the mods most constantly targeted by complaints about his anti-fascist bias* (someone who also expresses constant frustration with Phantom Hoover, who you're trying to paint as a mastermind in all this) has thrown in the towel and given up. That doesn't seem like a great wave of purges to me.

If you are in fact posting in good faith, please consider 1) that it is genuinely hard to tell, given the situation and 2) that you might be better off with just an apology and acceptance for now. I think that would seem much more genuine than worrying about dangerous precedents.

In any case this is all in the hands of the Discord mods now. It's their Discord and they can do what they want with it.

*fascists should be punched in the face in real life
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 04, 2021, 03:58:31 pm
You shouldn't be looking warily. Almost 2 years of consistently indicating I am not a Nazi and believe the Holocaust happened should be more than enough evidence to you and everyone else that, again, I am not a Nazi and believe the Holocaust happened. My actions on HLP's Discord and forums have additionally followed with no deviation to suggest that I am a Nazi or believe the Holocaust didn't happen. My issues with Hoover stem from his involvement in all three instances(creating the petition thread for Goober's removal, having restarted the conflict with Mjn on the Discord according to the chat logs), and having publicly called me a Nazi in HLP the day before I was banned(which I denied, again staying consistent). Additionally, your excuse of "people who've returned from lengthy bans and are back to participating" means nothing considering MageKing told me, quote, "You will not be unbanned." I can't return from a length ban and go back to participating if the ban is permanent.

And yes, I do fully believe that banning people for past wrongs, especially past wrongs that didn't happen on HLP, will lead to weaponization of the ban system. The fact people are opposed to this, as well as prior comments made indicating such opposition, make that clear here. That you have to even suggest I am not posting in good faith is exceedingly disappointing to me given, again, my continued statements of not being a Nazi and believing the Holocaust happened over the near 2 years. It should not be 'genuinely hard to tell,' I've already apologized multiple times, and I see no reason to accept being banned for something I wasn't even banned for when it actually happened, let alone getting banned for it nearly 2 years after the fact.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: General Battuta on February 04, 2021, 04:04:20 pm
If people think handwringing about fascists is spurious I would encourage you to go look at the discord communities for, say, Skyrim modding. Without proactive moderation it can get very jackboots very quick.

e:

You shouldn't be looking warily. Almost 2 years of consistently indicating I am not a Nazi and believe the Holocaust happened should be more than enough evidence to you and everyone else that, again, I am not a Nazi and believe the Holocaust happened.

Were it so easy! It's hard to rebuild trust after something like this, and I acknowledge it can be frustrating—for both of us, because a lot of neofash types are very careful to hide their power level. Morgy/CWG Andrew never said anything overtly fascist on HLP discord, and yet...

But it is, again, not up to me. It is in the hands of the Discord mods now.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 04, 2021, 04:20:12 pm
I don't even own Skyrim so not sure why I'd ever end up there. As is though, wouldn't the consensus of the discord mods also be influenced by the global team of administrators in order to maintain consistency between the discord and forums and prevent their divergence?
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: General Battuta on February 04, 2021, 04:22:29 pm
You're not the only person reading this thread!

I don't think there has ever been any stated desire to make Discord a formal extension of HLP's administration. It's just a discord about HLP.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 04, 2021, 06:10:07 pm
I don't think there has ever been any stated desire to make Discord a formal extension of HLP's administration. It's just a discord about HLP.

Considering most of the active membership of the community engages in general discussion there instead of the forum, mods have channels dedicated to their development and bug-fixing that are notably more active than those on here, and from my personal experience actual campaign development occurs more through the Discord than through the subforums in the campaign forums on here, it may admittedly be beneficial.

Well, that, and HLP directly linking from its website to the Discord saying that it is the HLP Discord.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Mito [PL] on February 04, 2021, 06:16:07 pm
Okay, this needs to be addressed firstly. My previous post? I have f*cked up so hard there that I can't believe I was ever capable of f*cking something up so damn hard if I didn't do just that yesterday. If this is of any value to anyone after my outburst, I am extremely sorry for this and will try my best to never ever repeat such. If it isn't, you can rest assured that I'm going to have a lot of time to detest myself over it in the near future, starting about today morning.

Yes, I think it was important to mention that The E has an intense ideological grudge against Rybak. Yes, I shouldn't have said that in such an idiotic manner. Yes, while I like to think of myself as understanding of the necessity of some drastic actions, the sheer intensity of the hate started to become ludicrous to me.

But, to reiterate what I should have said back there and didn't do it correctly: the HLP Discord server has lately had a large issue with certain individuals constantly harassing and attacking a productive member of the community who had a release recently. Since I don't really care anymore, I think they should be called out by nickname: General Battuta and Phantom Hoover are the most prominent attackers (that I can remember; if I am wrong, please correct me) were attacking Mobius firstly over his very weird announcement of the ModDB awards, and then a mistake in one of his responses to Battuta's harrasment in the forum topic. For the record, I have privately asked Battuta to stop these attacks, not only because I believed they seriously hurt Mobius, but because this behaviour also had a severely negative effect on me, for personal reasons. I got the response that he "will be nicer to Mobius", and, well, nothing really changed.
Therefore it is very concerning to me that the moderation staff were incapable to react to this situation as it was happening for weeks on the forum (the thread was locked, warnings handed out and a statement was given after a considerable time, I recall) and then again for at least over a week on the Discord, with the aggressors publicly engaging in lengthy ridiculising of Mobius on about bi-daily basis, but then a week or two later they're somehow perfectly fine with tracing back someone's antisemitic behaviour in a different Discord server from two years back. This is at best an issue with priorities.
Another very concerning thing is that it felt to me like nobody else in the community would take a firm stand against this behaviour. I'm sorry if I might be misremembering things, but I really am under the impression I was the only one to actually strongly oppose.


If this wasn't enough, on the HLP Discord he also publicly endorsed real life violence against people who have committed some speculated act of "supporting fascism".

Do you have any evidence for that? It's an extreme strong accusation you're making there so you should provide evidence. Promoting political violence of any sort is an absolute no-go (and against both Discords as well as HLP ToS, what can get your account deleted by Discord); leave alone a complete disqualification for any kind of staff membership.
Okay, let's start from the thing I said after that. My severely exaggerated point about The E "trying to make that happen" was about him joining the ranks of Antifa, which he openly mentioned in the Discord. As for the endorsement of violence, my memory of that is foggy at best. What I recall is that at some point I've engaged with a discussion with him where he openly stated something going so far beyond the typical "punch nazis in the face" slogan that I was honestly left with a thought that I simply cannot take this person seriously anymore. Which is something that I have really never felt towards somebody. If my memory serves, it might have been around two months ago in the #gaming channel of the Discord, but I'm not perfectly sure of the time frame. If you feel like you need to verify, please do, but don't ask me to do it. I am not in the HLP Discord anymore, and don't plan on returning.


Punching Nazis is good and should be encouraged at all times and in all places.
I think you of all people should maybe consider sitting this one out, given your record with assuming who are the people you're conversing with.



Also, I think it's worth mentioning that I'm pretty sure I have a pretty accurate understanding of who did repeatedly report Rybak for making extremely insensitive jokes nearly two years ago, and honestly this doesn't feel very encouraging to me.



So, there's another very haunting feeling that has hit me today like a truck. The timing of this situation is just too perfect. Let me explain.

A bit beyond a week or so ago, after learning that another member of the Discord left and instantly jumping to the conclusion that the reason for this was the absurd amount of toxicity generated in there by two individuals, and when they started to assault Mobius again, as per the latest customs, I had an absolute breakdown and promptly left the server too, leaving some parting insult that I think many might have considered extremely offensive. At this point I've decided to slowly remove any involvements I had with this community, and I moved to the barren politics server that I was in charge of. On February 1st, I have asked a question whether anyone is still using the server for anything, and that I was thinking of outright deleting it. The next day I have followed it with a statement that I want to leave the server, but I wouldn't want to delete it if there was any interest in it. Which it seems to have been near zero.

From this discussion, I understand that Rybak's Discord ban took place possibly hours after my statement of intention to remove the server, which is bringing me to a quite paranoical conclusion that I just can't shake off and it's been gnawing at my sanity for most of the day.

Did someone present on the server want this to happen?
Did they expect me to remove the server along with any proof of whatever defense line Rybak might have stated, with the exception of hand-picked screenshots from there, all being definite proof of his guilt?

Has my moment of weakness been used by someone as means of ridding the community of an inconvenient member without allowing them having any proof for any line of defense they might have taken?

Merely thinking of it makes me feel dirty. Not to mention the sleep lost over it and a massive headache.

Also FYI, the server is right now in the hands of qazwsxal.



It's just a game discord.
It is, again, only a video game discord for a tiny community.
You need to remember that most of the HLP related action has moved onto the Discord server. This directly means removing the person in question from the majority of the community intercourse... this is not "just a game discord".
Have you ever considered why would a hypothetical demasked nazi want so hard to return to "just a game discord" of the community that demasked him and visibly holds him in contempt?

Also, while I understand that it isn't aimed towards me, please do tell. Then why is my decision of leaving this community one of the most painful things I've ever done?

Maybe because this "just a game discord" and just a game community were things and people I have enjoyed spending time with and strongly involved myself personally with? Maybe because it was literally my only other major source of social interactions outside of work or other necessary activities? Maybe because it was a place where I made a bunch of friends that I wanted to enjoy spending time with?


Now, what's next on the list... Ah.
Maybe it would be better for your mental health if you just didn't get involved in this.
You.

After you have joined the Discord after one of your famous self-bans, I took a long while to see just who exactly you are. By observing you and asking around a bit about you I have arrived at a honestly depressing conclusion.

You're a siren.

This is a strange term, but I've never ever seen anyone fitting it just so well. You lure innocent poor souls into your circle of self-adoration with your puppet morality and promise of comfort and understanding... But when they warm up to you and get closer, they only get the choice between being manipulated into this... thing you create around yourself, or being rejected, attacked and ridiculed by you and your choir at every step. I have never had the image of someone to look up to crumble into pieces so insanely fast. Seeing your behaviour over the time has been a crushing experience in trying to keep loving the art while absolutely despising its author, given how a massive BP fanboy I used to be. I have no idea whether I made it or not, given that I haven't launched Freespace in about a month and don't feel like doing this anytime soon. So, I guess, never meet your childhood heroes?

Funnily enough, I had just handled the proccess of fully removing a person similarily abusive in similar fashion to you from my personal life no more than about two weeks ago. Time to go again, I guess.


So you dare put up the act of being concerned about me? After being one of the three people from here constituting the majority cause of my current issues with myself? After being explicitly told by me that every instance of seeing you assault innocent people destroys me from the inside in a way I never knew was possible, and just continuing doing just that? You have the audacity to publicly put up such a patronising act after all of this?

If you have any sort of common courtesy left in you, and if you really have any slightest care about my well being: don't ever speak to me again.




I am thinking this post is a bit of an act of fate. There I was yesterday, deciding to look into the new unread messages one last time before I let go, thinking of how fun it was to nerd out with the people here. And I just happened to stumble upon this and the Mjn drama topic.

At this point I think I'll just be around to see these reach their conclusions, and then just fade away. There is a part of me that desperately wants for something, anything to convince me otherwise, but I am not getting my hopes up at this point.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: General Battuta on February 04, 2021, 06:19:38 pm
You need the psychological help that everybody on Discord told you to get. You are a paranoid, volatile mess. Come back when you are better.

Because of this, you are also the primary source of problems on discord. Essentially the entire community is set up around calming you down every time you have an episode. You talk about nothing except discord drama and your own life problems, which, while terrible, are not going to be solved on discord. You need to work on yourself. I'm not going to delete this, because I did say it and I don't want to hide that, but it was said in anger and I apologize. You have needed a lot of soothing and have said some genuinely terrible things (denying COVID casualties in America bothered me in particular), but you are not The Big Problem.

e: That was too far. You've been gone the last few weeks and things have been calmer. But whenever you do appear it is, essentially, to shout that everything is awful and that this reminds you of a personal trauma. If you have awful personal trauma that is harming your relationships with other people, please seek therapy. I mean that. It can be incredibly valuable.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: General Battuta on February 04, 2021, 06:23:32 pm
Meanwhile the logs of Rybak's incident are being reviewed. It is, again, up to the discord mods to decide what they do.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: JSRNerdo on February 04, 2021, 06:26:33 pm
You need the psychological help that everybody on Discord told you to get. You are a paranoid, volatile mess. Come back when you are better.

Because of this, you are also the primary source of problems on discord. Essentially the entire community is set up around calming you down every time you have an episode. You talk about nothing except discord drama and your own life problems, which, while terrible, are not going to be solved on discord. You need to work on yourself.

lol

mirror, much
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: General Battuta on February 04, 2021, 06:29:21 pm
How so? Look past your kneejerk reaction, maybe reread this thread. Do you still feel that way?
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Andreas Rybak on February 04, 2021, 06:31:59 pm
You need the psychological help that everybody on Discord told you to get. You are a paranoid, volatile mess. Come back when you are better.

Because of this, you are also the primary source of problems on discord. Essentially the entire community is set up around calming you down every time you have an episode. You talk about nothing except discord drama and your own life problems, which, while terrible, are not going to be solved on discord. You need to work on yourself.

e: That was too far. You've been gone the last few weeks and things have been calmer. But whenever you do appear it is, essentially, to shout that everything is awful and that this reminds you of a personal trauma. If you have awful personal trauma that is harming your relationships with other people, please seek therapy. I mean that. It can be incredibly valuable.

I've been decently active, even in lurking, prior to the time that Mito left the server. I truthfully doubt that he needs psychological help - certainly in my many personal interactions with him I have never seen him be paranoid or volatile. Even during his time running the political Discord such was still not the case. He was not the primary source of any issues that have happened on the Discord - certainly not as of late - and I have not seen much from him in the way of Discord drama over the multiple years I've been a part of the community.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Aesaar on February 04, 2021, 06:40:04 pm
Mito, I don't mean this in the dismissive, mocking way it's typically used on the Internet.  I'm being as sincere as I can possibly be:

Please get help.  Please please please get help.  Step away from HLP for a while and focus on you and getting better.  If you ever feel inclined to come back, you'll always have that option, but right now, I really don't think it's healthy for you to be here.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: General Battuta on February 04, 2021, 06:45:19 pm
I am reluctant to go pull chatlogs of personal conversations from Discord and paste them here forever. It seems intrusive. But you'll have to trust me that a lot of us, not some narrow slice, were begging him to go see a therapist as soon as possible due the sheer misery he is enduring in his offline life. I'll refer you to Ertanax, Bees, and Cerazor as the first three names I see in the logs as character witnesses.

My impression that Mito is a source of problems may be heavily inflected by watching him tear down my personal friend and repeated ****ty stuff survivor The E over what was, essentially, a grudge over fancy IRC moderation. He has been dogged and persistent in blaming things on The E even when the German man is not involved. This led directly to E stepping down. Mito also had to be soothed in the middle of any conversation that remotely resembled a disagreement, whether big or small. From my perspective it seemed very much like he was hypervigilant and incredibly anxious.

Because of his own fears about exclusion, Mito seems unable to understand that not all interpersonal conflict is motivated by animus, and not all exclusion is malicious. Given a person who has done something wrong, and five people shouting at them that they have done something wrong, it seems to me that Mito will always—for very strong emotional reasons—side with the person who has done wrong, no matter what the wrong might be. This can be admirable, but in situations where someone has done something wrong and the community consensus points to some punishment (for example, Goober losing admin status), it leads to Mito melting down again and again over the 'bullying': ironically with no concern for those who were actually harmed in the first place. That's a moral myopia I find pretty frustrating.

It is clear that this is making Mito miserable and it certainly made The E miserable. People shouldn't stay in situations making them miserable.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: General Battuta on February 04, 2021, 06:50:42 pm
MP-Ryan and Ironbeer also good character witnesses.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: General Battuta on February 04, 2021, 06:57:21 pm
Anyway, **** this, being accused of abuse for trying to speak reason in a thread about some guy's Holocaust denial 'jokes' is a span too far for me. Mito, go to therapy. Rybak guy, I hope you get the appropriate punishment/relief for whatever you actually did. Face guy, I wish you would express your problems in a way other than being snide at weird times.

I'm going to go paste screenshots for Axem and Spoon so we can have a big collective groan. Mods, this has degenerated into bickering and I think it deserves a lock.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: Mito [PL] on February 04, 2021, 07:05:55 pm
You really don't know when to fall silent for a moment, do you?

So now that I'm pretty certain that you actually don't give the slightest f*ck beyond being smug in an internet discussion, throwing around lies and half-truths wrapped in silver lining for everyone to salivate over your eloquence...

You need the psychological help that everybody on Discord told you to get.
People shouldn't stay in situations making them miserable.

Doing just that. Can't do much of returning to normality with this amount of toxicity accompanying me.
Title: Re: Discord issue
Post by: MP-Ryan on February 04, 2021, 07:08:41 pm
This thread gets a pause while I write a response, and then maybe we'll collectively consider unlocking it after.  Maybe.  Stand by.

EDIT:  To address several reports about political violence, punching Nazis (actual Nazis), etc, I wrote out the following yesterday and ran it by the other moderators.  To put everyone on notice:

My grandfather earned medals for punching Nazis and worse, and I would consider it something of an honour to follow in his footsteps.  Calling for punching actual Nazis is not political violence because that implies it is a topic on which reasonable people can disagree - and it isn't.  It's a public service.  THAT SAID, HLP is a community dedicated to a space sim, not eradicating a genocidal scourge from recent human history, and there are plenty of spaces on the Internet you can talk about that instead.  So, in the interest of keeping politics and contention quarantined from the main community spaces, we're discouraging further discussion of that particular part of this topic and any further posts on the matter will be relegated to the PolDisc subboard.