[General Battuta]

Presumably the same way we prevent extensive arguments about Magic the Gathering card prices. This just won't be a place for those discussions.

[AdmiralRalwood]

Well if it's the people therein, how do we prevent simular "outbreaks once there's not a place to vent?

with the report button, obviously

historically, people getting Political Prisoner'd has not usually resulted in them ****posting all over the rest of the forums

[Lorric]

Is Scotty not a moderator anymore? His name is not blue and his badge is gone.

[Mongoose]

BTW, to all y'all complaining about how GenDisc shouldn't be the first thing newcomers see... is nobody old enough to remember when GenDisc was at the top of the forums? We moved it to (nearly) the very bottom years ago, for the very reason that it was indeed off-topic from HLP's purpose de existance (fake French alert).

Yeah, the memory of this had me chuckling at those posts too.  Hell, one or two prominent individuals were angered enough by that change to flat-out quit visiting the site.

Yes, but is there a way for tags to be community-moderated? We don't need trolls tagging something maliciously and it having the same level of legitimacy as an accurate tag. Community moderation would be good, or perhaps something where any given tag doesn't show on a thread until X number of people have suggested it?

I'm fairly sure (though not 100% certain) that the tagging mod involves choosing from a list of pre-defined tags to label a thread.  So we'd have built-in tags like "Campaign" or "Model" or "MIssion," as well as for FSO versions like "3.7.4" to filter things.

[Phantom Hoover]

Hell, one or two prominent individuals were angered enough by that change to flat-out quit visiting the site.

bomber harris do it again

[Sandwich]

HLP's purpose is to "bring modders together". So once we're together and we form friendships and relationships, are we forbidden from discussing things of importance to us as people, which may not have any relevance to the original reason we formed a bond (FS2)? I'm fine with excluding GenDisc from being counted in the recent replies list, and posts therein haven't counted for a forumite's postcount for years, but I don't think shutting it down entirely is the right step.

For one, if you don't like it, nobody's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to go there.

Secondly, if you're worried about newcomers being turned off by passionate discussion, please go turn off the internet and read a book under a tree or something equally pastoral. HLP is not liberal American college campus 101, and we don't need to create "safe spaces" for people who get offended by every little thing... besides, I think it's actually heartwarming how we can debate and bicker in one thread, and then trade modding tips or whatever in the next.

Finally, I'll be the first to admit that I've actually had a change of mind, fairly recently too, as a result of a GenDisc thread—the gay parents thread. I hadn't considered that the parents in question were—regardless of whatever else they were—simply bad parents. Someone posted that possibility, and it seems to be quite the reasonable explanation for the horrible experiences I posted about.

Anyway, all that to say that GenDisc isn't bad at all. It's passionate, raw, and real. I vote it stays—de-emphasized in whatever means we see fit, but I believe it should remain open for discussion for the more daring among us.

[AdmiralRalwood]

HLP's purpose is to "bring modders together".
[...]
we don't need to create "safe spaces"

Pick one.

[xenocartographer]

HLP's purpose is to "bring modders together".
[...]
we don't need to create "safe spaces"

Pick one.

I don't get it.

[Mongoose]

Re: GenDisc specifically, some time ago a suggestion was proposed (and eventually shot down) to separate out political/religious/whatever discussions into their own folder.  What about actually doing that this time, but taking things a step further: make that folder only visible to an opt-in usergroup.  That way those people who enjoy that sort of discussion, or at least who get some lulz from reading it, are free to partake as they please, and all newbies have to see is the fun mundane stuff like WHIYL.

[xenocartographer]

I'd be on board with that.

[karajorma]

I could live with that. As long as making it opt in didn't result in it becoming worse. i.e it would become opt-in but the level of moderation wouldn't be reduced (in fact I'd suggest bringing back the old zero tolerance on flaming rules). Basically the political discussions sub-forum would become a place where if you asked to be in it, you're expected to show a higher level of maturity that we've had on GD, not a lower one. No soapboxing, belittling other users, etc.

People who can't show that level of maturity, would swiftly be kicked out of the forum.

The main reason we haven't in fact split off political discussions is because there was a good likelihood of it turning into a flame pit that would drag the rest of the board down with it. If people are happy with accepting that they will have to be on their best behaviour in the political forum and that things that would be tolerated in the other forums won't be on that board, I'd be happy with splitting it off right now. Then we can leave Gen Disc as the place to talk about funny stories you saw on the news, what books / films you like, etc.

[AdmiralRalwood]

HLP's purpose is to "bring modders together".
[...]
we don't need to create "safe spaces"

Pick one.

I don't get it.

Either your goal is to be a haven for modders (in which case things unwelcoming to modders need to be minimized), or your goal is to be an unregulated free speech zone (in which case you just have to accept that some conversations being allowed is going to drive potential modders away). Trying to be all things to everyone is physically impossible.

[General Battuta]

I believe it should remain open for discussion for the more daring among us.

Maybe you should dare to play some FreeSpace

[JSRNerdo]

I believe it should remain open for discussion for the more daring among us.

Maybe you should dare to play some FreeSpace

[Mongoose]

Let's keep this thread free from the usual petty sniping, shall we?

[Colonol Dekker]

How many people (not big players) use GD over a dedicated chat forum because they LIKE hard light?
I do and have since 90-whenever it opened.  I chose it over VBB as it was MORE sensible. I may not post as much but it still is a good read.

[Grizzly]

HLP is not liberal American college campus 101, and we don't need to create "safe spaces" for people who get offended by every little thing...

Safe spaces were brought to life in a country were bigoted views on people with non-default sexualities are common, and where those bigoted views are often expressed trough harassment and bullying and other ways that only shut people up. They aren't for people who get offended by every little thing, they are against them.

I'd argue that that is a point you're missing here: By having guidelines for forum conduct, one that specifically mentions that "racism, homophobic language, sexism, personal attacks, and harassment" are not permitted, HLP already is a safe space. By arguing against safe spaces you're also arguing against the forum policies that you've been enacting and the forum policies that created the enviroment that you just praised. The point that a lot of people are making in this thread, even if they don't agree to a solution, has been that they don't feel that this policy has been enforced consistently.

[Lorric]

+1 for gen disc split, I've advocated for it before. I didn't mention it here before because I thought it was very much off the table.

[Sandwich]

Either your goal is to be a haven for modders (in which case things unwelcoming to modders need to be minimized), or your goal is to be an unregulated free speech zone (in which case you just have to accept that some conversations being allowed is going to drive potential modders away). Trying to be all things to everyone is physically impossible.

Evidently I should have been more specific, or perhaps I mislabeled the term—apologies all around if so. I was intending to refer to those instances where students were so bothered by the result of the election that "safe spaces"—or whatever the proper term—were created for students who couldn't handle their normal routine immediately thereafter (eg. http://college.usatoday.com/2016/11/15/heres-how-universities-are-offering-support-to-students-after-trumps-election/).

I'm not referring to safe spaces created for other reasons, (primarily) prior to the election results. The difference being that a safe space against an actual threat of violence or in-your-face expressions of hatred is eminently reasonable, while a safe space against an outcome you don't like of a democratic election is a bit ridiculous. Basically... protect, don't pamper.

Anyway, I'm not getting into any further political discussion in this thread, of all places. My point is that yes, HLP should be a protected place for modders to do their thing, but since we have a dedicated forum for non-modding-related discussion—GenDisc—I  don't believe there's any need for actual pampering. Completely removing the off-topic discussions from the public eye to prevent exposure to passionate discussion and occasional vitriol seems to me to fit firmly in the "pampering" category.

I believe it should remain open for discussion for the more daring among us.

Maybe you should dare to play some FreeSpace

Hush, you. I told you not to bring that up.

Re: GenDisc specifically, some time ago a suggestion was proposed (and eventually shot down) to separate out political/religious/whatever discussions into their own folder.  What about actually doing that this time, but taking things a step further: make that folder only visible to an opt-in usergroup.  That way those people who enjoy that sort of discussion, or at least who get some lulz from reading it, are free to partake as they please, and all newbies have to see is the fun mundane stuff like WHIYL.

I'd be okay with a split into a subforum, but why hide it? Label it appropriately, perhaps "Controversial Topics", and explain in the description that this is an area for often-heated debates about the more divisive topics of life, politics, religion, morality, etc, and that people who are bothered by such topics need not partake. Nothing more than that needs to be done (IMO).

<3 y'all!

[karajorma]

Actually I quite like the idea of making it opt-in. Anyone who doesn't like it can opt back out again. But I'd suggest making it visible at first but with the kind of heavier moderation I mentioned before, if that can stop it being such a problem on its own, there wouldn't be any need to make it opt-in. If after say 3-4 months we've not had any major issues cause of it we leave it as is. If it's caused problems at the same level as the current gen disc we make it opt-in. If it has caused more problems, we burn it to the ground and then salt the ashes with plutonium so nothing can ever grow there again.