Author Topic: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion  (Read 54089 times)

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Offline Lorric

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
You know, fun thing about that snippet that you kept around for 6 years.

After you sent that to Black Wolf, we had an internal discussion about that. The consensus that emerged then was that yes, I was wrong to share that, and I agreed not to do it again ... but also, that there was never a formal rule in place that said that moderation reports were confidential.
That is a very poor excuse. I'm sure you don't have formal rules for a lot of things, because they go without saying. Or they should!

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I don't see how these things from 6 years ago apply to the current discussion.
Read back to see how we got here.

 

Offline Fineus

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I'm inclined to agree with Nightmare on this one Lorric, I don't see how this is useful with reference to the issue at hand.

That goes for everyone else too. If someone has done something you feel worth raising now then please do so in a separate thread.

This topic could do with resolving without the thread devolving into cross-purposes.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I don't see how these things from 6 years ago apply to the current discussion.

Lorric wants to pretend that his report being mocked on IRC is the equivalent of threatening legal action and deleting a thread because of wounded pride.

Here comes the defence from the clique!

The clique being who?  The people who don't particularly like you?  Yeah, truly quite a power bloc.

No one cares about the axe you have to grind re: The_E.  No one cared then and no one cares 6 years later.  Maybe take that as a signal to let it go.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 09:44:48 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I'm inclined to agree with Nightmare on this one Lorric, I don't see how this is useful with reference to the issue at hand.

That goes for everyone else too. If someone has done something you feel worth raising now then please do so in a separate thread.

This topic could do with resolving without the thread devolving into cross-purposes.
Well, it goes back to the topic of people wanting Goober stripped to the ranks. I don't even necessarily want to go through the staff with a chainsaw, but if we booted Goober now it would be because it was Goober, not that what he did was so bad. I'm happy enough with things as they are. We have Axem and MP-Ryan now and maybe, just maybe, things might change a bit when people abuse their positions.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I'm something of a believer in second chances (I appreciate some are not) but would hope this moment will prove a wake up call and an end to these issues. (If) further issues arise then we'll have this moment to look back upon - this is "that chance".
Again, goober's been here longer than most of us and his behavior is nothing new, there's only so many seconds chances one should be given.
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Offline Fineus

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Well, it goes back to the topic of people wanting Goober stripped to the ranks. I don't even necessarily want to go through the staff with a chainsaw, but if we booted Goober now it would be because it was Goober, not that what he did was so bad. I'm happy enough with things as they are. We have Axem and MP-Ryan now and maybe, just maybe, things might change a bit when people abuse their positions.

Fair enough! In that case I'd agree I'm keen not to go through the staff with a chainsaw (or indeed anyone).

Quote
Again, goober's been here longer than most of us and his behavior is nothing new, there's only so many seconds chances one should be given.

On the one hand, I'd say being around somewhere longer does mean you have greater scope to get it wrong but also maybe (just maybe) earn a couple more second chances than someone brand new. I would say that Goober has significantly contributed to this community - more so than some drama on a political sub-board should undo. Perhaps that makes me appear weak but whatever. Ironically this is NOT a court of law / legal system and it's silly to play as such. We're a bunch of fans of gaming and modding and so-forth and should approach this as such.

*However* I also concur with the general consensus that threatening legal action etc. was an unacceptable move. It's for that reason that the above steps are being taken.

I won't claim to speak for everyone - be it the community, the admins, the mods or anyone else. But I will say that while I would like for nothing further to come of this, IF there are further problems I am very much a witness to what happened here and that this is a 'last' second chance.

Conversely I don't want witch hunts going forward to try and poke or provoke *anyone* into a reaction or into saying something stupid.

Mistakes have been made, action taken (with the understanding that the chance given is a last second chance). Personally I'd be glad that that be the end of it.

 

Offline Lorric

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Btw Fineus, I forgot about you as it's so rare to see you when I was thinking about staff. I've never had any issue with you. You even moderated me once, and I thought it was fair. It's nice to see you here, the fact someone got you involved and you are involved in itself is one sign that this has been taken more seriously than is normal.

 

Offline Fineus

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
It's nice to see you here, the fact someone got you involved and you are involved in itself is one sign that this has been taken more seriously than is normal.

Nice to see you (and everyone else) also!

I'm painfully aware that I'm not around much these days and it's fantastic to see everyone still cracking on - not to be sentimental but it IS great.

In a way that's why I'm so loathe to see 'big' steps taken if a little step might do at this point. I hope that it does!

(And yes, while I won't claim to have spent a 10th of the energy the other active admins and mods have here in recent years, I do hope my speaking up shows it's not something that's escaping attention at all levels. I really do hope it can be resolved amicably and that's the approach I think we all want to try first).

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Frankly, I find that this "solution" is wholly inadequate. What you're telling us, Axem, is that Goober will remain an admin, with all of the associated privileges on the forum, including the ability to moderate GenDisc and PolDisc. He's just not "allowed" to do it.

In other words, you're telling us that an admin who's already demonstrated a willingness to ignore the rules of the forum and the responsibilities of his role to get his way isn't going to do it again because . . . he's going to follow some new rules?

Why should we believe that? What guarantee do we have that he's not just going to ignore those too? Or that he's not going to break some other rules the next time someone says something mean about him? Hard to feel like this issue has been satisfactorily resolved when the offending individual is completely free to reoffend, and with no indications that his behavior is actually going to change (unless you expect us to believe that Goober has had a complete change of heart in the span of, what, a week?)

e: And no, my problem here is not that I find Goober's views repugnant (although I do), it's that he threatened a bull**** legal action against people who disagreed with him and then abused his admin powers to win the argument.

Also, as a side note, I believe other individuals that have threatened legal action against folks on HLP have eaten at least a temp ban. But then, they weren't admins, so apparently they don't count.

I've largely refrained from commenting so far because everyone has a right to express their opinions on this particular staff decision, but I do want to take this opportunity to clear things up.

This was a long and contentious discussion and it was not arrived at lightly.  HLP's systems do not easily allow for us to distinguish between "technical side" administration and moderation abilities.  Goober has provided substantial technical-side support and work that does not go unrecognized.  However, all the staff recognized that this situation is intolerable which is why we have collectively compromised on tangible, real measures.  Goober will not be moderating GenDisc and PolDisc from this point onward until there is clear communication otherwise.  There are substantial changes to the way moderation in those areas will be conducted.

There are extremely few actual user bans in HLP's history - and to make this clear, I would not support the immediate banning of any user for vague legal threats as a first course of action.

As to what is to prevent Goober from violating his agreement again, he has given his word that he will abide by these conditions.  As a result, this compromise reflects the combined opinions of the entire staff who participated in the discussion (which was heated and passionate, and the simple reason that it was not public is because we didn't need to burn down the entire forum with that kind of discussion).  As someone who deals with contentious and serious legal matters in their career, my view fits the cliche:  the fairest kind of compromise in a serious matter is one that no one is happy with.  This agreement strikes that balance.  Should the agreement be violated, then there will be direct, serious, and [relatively] immediate consequences.  That's my word on the matter.

If anyone doesn't trust the motives of any individual person who contributed to this decision, we ask at least that you trust that all of us have tried to strike a balance that is best for the community itself going forward - and if it turns out that approach was incorrect, then we'll all revisit these decisions again.

Thanks.
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Skipping all the Lorric thread hijacking....

2 points of clarification.

First... I accused Goober of being a white supremacist supporter. I remember, because I wanted to say other things, but chose not to. Others may have taken the next step, but I can't reference the thread to check. It was my accusation that originally got the legal threat.

Second... It was bad that he deleted the thread, but let's not forget that was after another mod had locked the thread temporarily while he waited for a mod not active in the thread to moderate it. Appropriate moderation had already occurred. Goober didn't approve and took matters into his own hands.

This solution is... Pretty much what I expected. I made my position on all this pretty clear to Goober in private more than a week ago. Unfortunately for him, I'm still an asshole. I wish I could be as kind and graceful as people I highly respect like Axem and Galemp, but I'm not.
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Offline Galemp

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Mike, being intolerant of intolerance doesn't make you an asshole. Were that we were all so brave.

As others have said, being kind and gracious with those that hold hateful ideals, is a privilege, and one I'm taking advantage of in my approach to all this. That doesn't make me the better man.

That said: again, what we are dealing with here is abuse of power by an admin threatening legal action against members. I think "don't do it again" is an inadequate response and and that at least a temp ban would be more appropriate, as admins should be held to a higher standard and the punishment needs to reflect that. No member would be afforded that same opportunity.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I'm going to point out that with the exception of someone whose posts I never even saw called Motley-Jester, the last temp ban we gave a user was in 2016.

Bans on HLP are pretty rare these days. We do try to treat them as a last resort a lot more than we used to.
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Offline Lorric

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I for one am interested to see what he says in this apology. We should at least see that before thinking about banning him.

The emphasis on the legal action threat puzzles me. Sure, I know some people just want to get rid of Goober, but I don't think everyone who has brought it up does. It was obviously an empty threat, and they knew it, which is why they all gleefully jumped in, I'm Spartacus style.

But let's not act like he's the only one at fault, whenever he opens his mouth about anything in that part of the forum, someone, often more than one person, beats him over the head with the doomsday thing, and this was no exception. I think he's got the message. It was over three years ago! And with the supremacist thing, he was seriously provoked, though shouldn't have fallen into the trap, but they've been poking the proverbial bear for a long, long time now trying to get this to happen.

So for me it seems best the way things are, no bans for anyone, Goober loses his authority in Gen and Pol disc.

 
Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
First... I accused Goober of being a white supremacist supporter. I remember, because I wanted to say other things, but chose not to. Others may have taken the next step, but I can't reference the thread to check. It was my accusation that originally got the legal threat.

There is no reason whatsoever for that thread to remain deleted long after every other admin has acknowledged that its deletion was totally illegitimate.
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
But let's not act like he's the only one at fault, whenever he opens his mouth about anything in that part of the forum, someone, often more than one person, beats him over the head with the doomsday thing, and this was no exception. I think he's got the message. It was over three years ago! And with the supremacist thing, he was seriously provoked, though shouldn't have fallen into the trap, but they've been poking the proverbial bear for a long, long time now trying to get this to happen.

If someone doesn't like being called out for their ****ty political opinions, they should shut the **** up about politics.  No one forced him to start spewing his garbage, and no one owes him a safe space in which to do so.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
imagine getting your panties in a knot over politics on an internet forum lmao
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
The deletion of the thread is being reversed (in part), and absolutely no one is proposing that opinions, ****ty or otherwise, be protected from criticism.  Axem's last statement on that subject stands: https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=96974.msg1902484#msg1902484

In the meantime, while you're all welcome to complain about the selected path forward, it would be greatly appreciated if everyone could move their hand holding the matches away from the hand holding the gasoline can.  Go ahead and be mad, but there is no need to try to start a bigger fight (and I am not looking at anyone in particular, just a general comment).
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Offline spart_n

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
this thread is very wholesome 0 big chungus non-approved, made-keanu-reaves-quit-his-acting-career reddit moment, tbh.