Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: SuperCoolAl on December 28, 2003, 08:50:34 am
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Well I'm surprised there isn't a thread dedicated to your theories on why things happened in the FS series- so I've made one! :rolleyes:
I'd like to see your theories on the Shivans, Capella, Bosch, anything!
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Well I have my own _very_ unique idea, but if I told anyone, I would stamp the letter saying Hidden Terror is dead. Sorry :p
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k, gimme a few hours to write what my theory is :)
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my theory on capella is that the shivans used the energy released from the nova to shunt their fleet into another dimension :nod:
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The Shivans – from a shivan’s point of view :)
A shivan is a half organic, half robotic hybrid, a modified ‘real shivan’ to be able to survive in what we call ‘the universe’. What we really should call a shivan is indeed, an energetic being dwelling in the depths of yet another universe, which we refer to as ‘subspace’. What we can see in subspace is only a very small part though. There’s much more inner spheres, which I will refer to as ‘the subspace Vortex’. We have the shivans (and maybe various other beings) in the vortex, and we have terrans, vasudans and many other species in our universe.
Of course the processes are very complicated, but you could demonstrate with the this easy example:
Imagine a glass filled half with water, half with oil. There will be a clear barrier, seperating water and oil. The water will remain unharmed, just as the oil will.
Now, to the more complicated and FS-story related parts of it:
As always, the human race had high plans, very high plans indeed, and as the restrictions of the physical laws were reached we had to find yet another way to work around them. And we discovered subspace. A multidimensional place to shorten our distances to a minimum. The Vortex and our universe exist at the same position, yet at different dimensions and this way completely seperated (see the example). Now technological progress made it possible to penetrate the barrier between normal space and subspace, making it possible to travel really fast to about any place you could think of. All that is needed to have a inter system jump point is a disturbance in the barrier (imagine: a point with less surface tension, due to dust or something.). You can penetrate it there, travel through it and re enter our universe at a completely different point in space.
As the subspace ‘matter’ and our matter are contrasts to each other they’re pretty volatile when mixed in the right proportions; high dimensional matter simply doesnt ‘fit’ in our three (four) dimensional space. When some little ships use subspace, there will be no real results. It will be a good way to travel. At the end of the TV-War subspace was heavily used, both by vasudans and terrans. As you will see there was LOTS and LOTS of penetrating the barrier.
Back to our example: Take the glass and a stick. If you penetrate the barrier once it will go back as if nothing happened. Keep pushing and poking at it and you will see that there will be great disturbances, the barrier will blur and you will have a mixed part. By using subspace you HURT the balance between subspace and our universe.
The Shivans, being subspace beings can sense subspace disturbances at long range (there’s practically no distance dimension in subspace so that doesnt really make sense anyhow). They feel when something is goin on. Now you can imagine that when you reach a certain point in subspace activity the barrier will not hold anymore. This would result in a clash of the two universes, leading to the distruction of both subspace and our universe (or, at least big parts of them). You can imagine the Shivans are not pleased when their home is attacked, when their universe is put in danger. At the end of the TV-War Shivans had found the time had come to act. To stop the ongoing damage that was done. Just like millions of other races, the terrans and vasudans had succeeded in luring the great destroyers. But they are not only the great destroyers but also the great preservers. You see, without them, we probably would not have a universe to live in anymore. The ancients were too keen on subspace, with their portals damaging the barrier even further than ordinary subspace travel would. So the shivans had built organic-robotic hybrids which they could send into our universe, to finally do something about the damage being dealt to the universe. Of course, the shivans (which started attacking the terrans and vasudans at the end of the TV-war) will also use subspace to travel, continuing to damage it. However, they will have to decide: Either let the terrans and vasudans progress to abuse subspace, or damage it too, but with the hope to stop the races killing it. For this reason, the shivans will ONLY attack if there’s really very much travel going on. Only then, the damage they would to themselves would be justified. At the end of the TV-war this was the case, so they sent the shivans we know.
Quite effectively the shivans destroyed Vasuda Prime, the fleets of the terran and vasudan military, and were headed for Sol. The destruction of the Lucifer in the jump to Sol created a subspace cataclysm sealing off the node. This was quite convenient for the shivans, although unplanned. The terrans and vasudans both left crushed, there was no need to keep attacking. The ‘subspace sensors’ were calm enough again. Things settled down. But the Vasudans and Terrans grew strong again. They created the GTVA, they conquered world after world. Bosch was the only one who had made the right conclusions. He KNEW humanity would face death if it continued to harm the universe. (see the reference with ‘shivans are the revenge of an angry cosmos’) His motives were clear: Stop the terrans to use subspace, and ally with the shivans. Make agreements on limited subspace travel and settle down. There was a slight problem, though. There were no shivans. So he thought and thought how to lure the shivans to out universe again. The idea he got was brilliant. By using the ancient’s portals he could easily create a very heavy subspace disturbance big enough to lure the shivans back.... and to communicate with them.
Bosch opened the portal, and the combined disturbance by the heavy GTVA travel and the opened portal was enough to get the shivans to act again. They came from Gamma Draconis, trying to get ahold of the portal, to shut it down once and for all. However, Bosch had different plans with them. Bosch knew humanities last chance was to ally with the shivans, and so he had a plan: With Sol being completely cut off of any subspace jump node, the only thing that had to be done was to kill ALL terrans and vasudans out of Sol, and Humanity could live on and on in Sol, in peace. He created the NTF, which turned out to evolve in it’s own direction (which Bosch was unable to stop, as can be seen in the monologues) – Yet he managed to get to the destroyers. With the universe at the brink of collapse, the shivans had to act immediately.
Back to our example. A large explosion at the barrier can have enough force to split both liquids, destroying part of it, but preventing the barrier to collapse completely.
The shivans launched their Sathanas capships for Capella. The only hope of the universe was in capella. Bosch was able to communicate with the shivans, and they agreed to help him in his plans. Granted, his actions would have to be drastic: help the shivans kill every single terran and vasudan outside Sol, and the Shivans would leave Sol in peace. The terrans there would never be able to exit Sol, not knowing about the ancient’s portals.
Now some of you probably think: Why didn’t Bosch tell the GTVA? It’s pretty simple. Imagine i’d go to the GTVA, and i’d say “Hey you... uhm... stop using Subspace will ya?” – There’s no chance to get the ambitious and power hungry races to actually stop abusing subspace for travelling purposes. No chance but-... to kill them.
With Bosch commissioned (he would probably be given an armada huge enough) to kill the GTVA (he was terran so he knows better about how terrans and vasudans think and act and he’s a universe-native specimen) and the Sathanas fleet making capella go supernova (and then opening subspace channels to have a multidimensional blast, can be seen in the endgame movies) they would restore the barrier just in time to prevent a complete apocalypse. That’s where FS2 ends. The peace achieved will not last long. The shivans, being a subspace-native race (the shivans being a subspace-native race is also hinted by Bosch ‘shivans were born in a flux of subspace...’) know a lot more about it than any terran or vasudan ever will and they’ll be able to find ways into GTVA space, to once and for all stop the potential danger the GTVA is.
There is no diplomatic solution. There’s only the complete destruction of any GTVA population. And Bosch knows it.
So you see, everything forms together to a picture. There were endless species to discover the mysteries of subspace, they all started abusing it, they all were obliterated by the shivans. The same would happen to Terrans and Vasudans, who were lucky enough to suvive two encounters (but only cause they were left weak enough to stop harming the barrier enough so the shivans went calm again). The third encounter, though, would be the final blow to both all terrans and vasudans. Bosch wants to save the human race, even if it means killing all but Sol’s inhabitants. That way, at least Sol, our most precious thing, can be left in peace remembering the glory of the human race. The vasudans, unfortunately do not have any isolated systems, thus they cannot be conserved without facing the extinction of both species. Trying to teach the terrans will yield no results, as history keeps proving over and over. This is the explanation for the shivan’s behaviour as well as Bosch’s rebellion. And i’m pretty sure I hit Volitions nail on the head with my theory.
‘Course you could spice my theory up a bit here and there, it sounds a bit dumb if I write long essays, but you should get the basic idea.
If you have any questions (the above is very confusing probably) you can ask me, and i'll answer them as good as I can. :)
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Forgot to mention: The energetic, subspacy-nature of the shivans can be seen in the hallfight when the shivan opens the armour suit.
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Or it's just a gun
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We do not know. As I said it's a theory. :)
But then again, almost everything in the FS Unvierse is a theory :p
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As Stryke 9 once said:
[q]Nah, I think this proves my theory that the Sathani are Shivan trailer homes. See, they really just wanted to make friends with the Terrans this whole time, but due to an unfortunate culture gap and some preliminary spy reports collected durign the Terran-Vasudan war, the Shivans figured our primary method of communication involved focusing high-density plasma charges into each other. Thus, Lucifer scout fleet showed up and transmitted the message "We come in peace", wiping out all nearby. Hurt and confused at the Terrans' and Vasudans' panicked flight, they followed the GTA fleet to Vasuda Prime. Knowing an important populated planet when they saw one, what subsequently ensued was the equivalent of thousands of years of Shivan history, science, and literature broken up into several easy-to-understand blasts... Thirty years later, the Shivans spot Terrans in their nebula. Curious as to what happened to their peace delegation, they accost the first fleet they see and bombard them with questions. The Terrans return fire, and, overjoyed that contact has finally been made, the Shivans mobilize their colony ships, ordering them to set up a permanent base around the nearest Terran star where Shivans and Terrans (and Vasudans, who the Shivans assumed were just more Terrans) could trade, communicate, and live in harmony. Up to the death of the Colossus, the Shivans maintained their good intentions, though they had to admit that maintaining good relations with the Terrans seemed to be getting an awful lot of them killed. It was only when the Terrans sealed off the first Capella jump node that the Shivans guessed that something was amiss. Slowly the idea formed that maybe we WEREN'T friendly, after all. Hurt by this possible breach of trust, the Shivans sent out one last delegate, headed on what they last knew as a route to the Sol system and the capitol of Terran government, housed in a Cain class executive transport. When diplomatic talks opened up prematurely and destroyed the Cain and the diplomat before a meeting, let alone consensus, could be achieved. Shocked and disgusted by the treachery of the Terrans, the Sathanas fleet blew up the Capella star in the universal signal for "farewell", which they hoped would eventually reach the remaining Terrans in other systems, and returned home, never to be seen by Terrans again.[/q]
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To lightspeed.
WOW. :cool:
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This bugs me wouldn't gas miners mining from gas giants, say neptune, wouldn't that ignite the entire planet!! since neptune is made up of gas giants mostly made up of highly flammable subtances.:nod:
Also how do freespace ships turn?
I have accepted the fact, why the ships just stop when no power is directed to the engines.
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It's an age old question jdjtcagle, but we guess the answer is gameplay.
BTW you need oxigane to burn anything or some other oxigent substant.
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Lightspeed this is an excelent theory!
However I once again have to voice my own version
I think my whole attempt to "enlighten" your point of view would be very similar to a discussion between Platon and Aristoteles.
Platon believed in an other world - or the world of ideas - and his beliefs formed the very bases for our culture (religion included, along with the prospect of a soul!), while Aristoteles claimed that the ideas he spoke of was nothing but abstactions of the world, an image that human creates in his mind.
IMHO the same stands for subspace.
You speak of it as another world in the same place - I think it's the SAME WORLD in the SAME PLACE!
Later I'll do a "technical run down of my subspace idea :)".
To make the whole concept short, subspace is present in small pockets however at certain places - like the big blackwhole at the middle of the galaxy, or a blackwhole that remained from the Big Bang it is very fluid and more stabile than elsewhere, so there is no such thing as a pure "subspace world".
However what I agree on is that the use of subspace "hurts subspace" - but not real space, and I doubt it would collapse the universe for if it could it would have quite a while ago.
I think that the damage can be undone - however it takes several millenias for subspace to regain its texture.
I doubt Shivans have originated from subspace since they are too physical to be energy beings - and I think only energy beings can be born in a world that's constantly shifting and has huge energies on the loose - however they could have been sent by one specie who is.
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The point I'd like to emphasis is their age - as I always do.
Thousands of years! Human history in not roughly more than ten thousand years (some would say twenty)!
These being lived for thousand years without chaging too much - they are either incapable of change or their current way of life is too rigid.
The reason behind this could be that they are robots - but if they're just automats, then they couldn't even handle the necessities of war.
So they are ither partly/wholly cybernetic beings sent by someone or acting on their own volition, one things remains the same - they're ancient.
That thing alone answers why they have zero-G tendencies in their bodies - or why zero-G evolution has taken a toll on them - they've just spent so much time in space they evolved while doing so!
Back to the age stuff, if they are that old....and still not Gods.... they must have reached a static level of life or at least something - or they temselves - prevent them from evolving further (.....or degenerating too. Some believe the only evitable end of evolution is death and decay and only doom awaits at the end of the tunnel).
So we have a bunch of cyborgs in a form that is milenias old (we don't know wheter they live that long, but their way of life and the way they handle things seems to suggest they are quite used to everything the universe may throw at them and simply stopped caring - they've always won, so they will win just like they did so far regardless setbacks).
If their culture or customs are that ancient it has to be quite static or have a very strong basis to stand throughout the changes of history.
Before you go on and say "Good, now what about their motives?" let's ponder this a little more. Did we have smg. similar on Earth, during our own Terran history.
You won't really find examples withing your reach, for the Western/European/American culture was always in perril and such forms of state were impossible.
As Henry Kissinger puts it in the Introduction of his book "History of Diplomacy", in Europe where the land is small and resources are close the constant struggle of wills was seen as an insusrer of the greater peace.
However most of Earth never knew such belief! In the East, Asia was ruled by EMPIRES most of the time - they stood for hundred if not thousand years and the dimensions of an individual were far less important than his place in the greater picture.
If we can take any merit from the above, then I have to conclude that Shivans have IMPERIAL tendencies, not in the terms of the age of colonisation, but rather the very thoughts and ideals of living in a huge imperium.
The other possibility is that they resemble a more primitive form, the tribal society that has lived even today (please take a look at the Middle East). During our entire history some place on Earth were so harsh that it was impossible to maintian a stabile life - so only nomad tribes could exist.
Of course as technology advanced less and less places fir into the category, but who can say that were never setbacks, or other problems that arose with the effects of the said advancement on society (IMHO the several dictatorships and other late "cyberpunkish" tendencies around centralised power show this desire for the return an earlier "form of leadership" (with deadly promise for opposition) that can hold the society together).
Never the less tribal and dictatoric societies exit and I'm afraid that they will exist in the future too. These societies are very rigid by nature to ensure the sheer survival of the people when resources are far between.
This situations can arise anywhere in history so this form of society or just the general rigidness can arise time to time.
It is possible that Shivans inherited nomadic/tribal tendencies.
Now we have a deadly mixture for Shivan behavior.
If something is old it has to be rigid if it's unchanging. The two possibilities I saw is either the imperialistic character created by the sheer wastness of the culture - and it is a good generalisation that the older a state the "bigger" it gets culturally and by sheer territory if it maintains it position, the other is the nomad tendancy created by the harshness of life.
Mix those - imperial with nomad.
The fact they ruled so long, as well as their constant move and lack of interest in planets can validate both statements.
You have a substance that can be more evil than anything to your Christian soul (I mean Christian as someone brought up in that cultural environment, it's not religion I speak of), for it contradicts most of your beliefs and your ways of life.
Vasudans were - imperial, civilised. Terrans idividualistic, civilised.
Regardless their motives or their origin with those attributes they are going to be the nemesis of Terrans.
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So if we look for the goals of Shivans we have 3 things to consider:
-Shivans are ancient--> imperial, nomad
-Subspace is damaged by its very use.
The Shivans could originate from an empire - their own, or their masters, that would explain the imperial part more clearly than the sheer time stuff (though such a mindset has a greater chance to endure time).
If it was their/their masters empire they must have used subspace - and an empire that old is beyond our imgination. It must have been huge.
However the greater the emire the heavier the subspace use - so in growing so big any empire in effect kills itself.
Asimov portreys this excelently in his Foundation novels - over centralisation leads to decay and eventual impossibility to keep the centre alive, while decentralisation leads to fragmentation of the state.
You need a massive flow of matter and spirit (yes, spirit, a part of culture the general ideals and thought IMHO are just as important as goods), to maintain the empire - for the lack will separate the parts and either lead to fragmentation or an ever growing strain between the centre and the ruled worlds.
Either the Shivans or their Masters must have realised this - or they would have perished - so some measure was taken to prevent or reform the use of subspace.
So a purpose of the Shivan is to solve the subspace crisis.
Going from the nomadic point of view Shivans could have been nomads all the time - however as simple nomads they would never rise to the piller of power they stand upon.
They either became nomads following a powerfull cataclysm ("their exile") or were created as wanderers to do their duty (monitoring/annihilting the leseer subspace users), it is also possible they were the nomads who brought down the empire before it could kill itself so subspace abuse, and live off the remains.
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TO SUM UP MY THOUGHTS OF SHIVAN NATURE
-Shivans are ancient --> imerial and/or nomadic - probably both
-Subspace fragile --> subspace crisis
Shivans are an answer to the subspace crisis.
They are either smg. that remained from a once great empire (as its servants/soldiers, once rulers or the rebells who brought it down), or the empire has left our know world along with the crisis leaving the Shivans behind to prevent another crisis.
They can protect an existing empire too - however the empire can be in decay, or exist mostly in the Shivans imagination remaining in ruins, or the Shivans can struggle to revive it and has to pacify the whole galaxy to do so - and calm the ripples of subspace as well.
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COCKYTUS -
viable without the center of universe - the galactic balckwhole would be just as good.
Their could be an alternate answer other than the regulation of subspace travel or annihilation:
I liked the Cockytus idea - by moving INTO SUBSPACE, a transfer system can be set up that can monitor and use subspace effectivly, with a carefull schedule and planning the effects of several and millions of vessels can be toned down.
Think of Lightspeed's glass with oild and water.
If you toned all the pokes to a rythm and the surface could keep up the pace - of course if you kept doing that eventually it would still be too much, but it would take a lot more effort.
It could be that that's what precisly happened. The empire thught they solved their problems, when a a couple of thousand years later they overstressed their new subspace, destroying their own civilisation - leaving the Shivans behind who vainly try to put things to their place "removing" off sync. interference who could casuse the breakdown - us and all the orher races, that have risen since the fall of the empire.
It is also possible that other events eventually consumed the empire leaving space for other races - however COCKYTUS is still there - with the promise of salvation.
However COCKYTUS was the empire's stronghold and centre, as well as the heart of the galaxy near the great black hole where subspace is smootherst.
A paradise in the abbys of death, guarded by the fiery dragons of an angry subspace enraged by mortals meddling with powers beyond their right.
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SUBSPACE
We don't live in a 4 dimensional time space, we live in multidimensional one. Stephan Hawkings already mentioned this theory in the "Brief History of Time" - he used the orange aproximation.
When you look at an orange from distance you can pretty much say it's a sphere - however if you look close you can notice all the small bumbs and trenches on the surface.
The same stands for the other dimensions - they don't come into play unless events take place on a miniscule scale - quantum phisic scale.
Latest studies try to explain this even without addition of new "dimensions". Instead - as far as I could understand - they explained it as if space could "wrap around itself" creating small pockets of universe.
Of cource these wraps have an edge - that's where you can enter.
However it seems the laws of physics aply everywherer - so gravity, electromagnetic fields, weak and strong interaction can intervince.
Gravity is special since it practically wraps space if some of Einstein's laws are viewed in that fashion, so gravity can disturb these pockets, and create an opportunity to enter - thereby a node.
IMHO subspace is not homogene, it is fractured in most of the universe but around big masses with great gravitiy it is more solid than elsewhere - this is the reason intra system jumps are esier to make.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Or it's just a gun
It is a gun. It sez so in the tech room.
Energy beeings? Someone watched too much ST. That's the worst thing in the whole ST universe.
ENERGY CANNOT BE ALIVE!!!!! period.
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[color=cc9900]Why not? Just because in our experience it isn't, doesn't mean it can't be. I might as well say:
ORGANIC BEINGS CANNOT BE ALIVE!!!!!111 period[/color]
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we could go matrix and say that the shivans were AI created by ancients for galatic domination. and then.....:)
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Originally posted by jdjtcagle
This bugs me wouldn't gas miners mining from gas giants, say neptune, wouldn't that ignite the entire planet!! since neptune is made up of gas giants mostly made up of highly flammable subtances.:nod:
You need an oxidising agent for a substance to burn. On gas giants like neptune you don't have one so nothing much happens.
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Beware: severe quoting ahead
Originally posted by Flaser
Lightspeed this is an excelent theory!
However I once again have to voice my own version
sure, you got some things wrong about my version though i want to clarify to you
You speak of it as another world in the same place - I think it's the SAME WORLD in the SAME PLACE!
That's what i said. Its the same world, its in the same place but actually could be called two worlds since theyre pretty much seperate. Look at a sheet of paper. It's 2-dimensional and is affected by actions in the 3rd Dimension, although it does not see or notice the presence of the 3rd dimension.
To make the whole concept short, subspace is present in small pockets however at certain places - like the big blackwhole at the middle of the galaxy, or a blackwhole that remained from the Big Bang it is very fluid and more stabile than elsewhere, so there is no such thing as a pure "subspace world".
IMHO untrue. Subspace exists everywhere, anywhere you can think of. And all that black hole stuff is assumption, there's other theories about the center of galaxies -- There is, of course no such thing as a pure 'subspace world' but there is points you CANNOT reach with the second dimension (up/down) or the first dimension (left/right/up/down). Same thing for the third dimension, the fourth dimension and so on. There ARE high-dimensional-only places
However what I agree on is that the use of subspace "hurts subspace" - but not real space, and I doubt it would collapse the universe for if it could it would have quite a while ago.
I think that the damage can be undone - however it takes several millenias for subspace to regain its texture.
Yep. I forgot to mention but as a glass with oil & water will settle down, so will subspace. If you stop entering and exitting it, of course.
I doubt Shivans have originated from subspace since they are too physical to be energy beings - and I think only energy beings can be born in a world that's constantly shifting and has huge energies on the loose - however they could have been sent by one specie who is.
Now read up CAREFULLY. Shivans themselves could never exist in what we call 'space'. They made half-shivan half-robotic hulls to move around in (or nearly complete robots). In my theory the only sighting of a shivan we ever get to see is in Hallfight, when the shivan opens the armour suit. The rest is like our spaceships. Theyre flying through subspace, yet would a terran never adapt to it. So the shivans 'sent themselves', modified.
The point I'd like to emphasis is their age - as I always do.
Thousands of years! Human history in not roughly more than ten thousand years (some would say twenty)!
These being lived for thousand years without chaging too much - they are either incapable of change or their current way of life is too rigid.
The reason behind this could be that they are robots - but if they're just automats, then they couldn't even handle the necessities of war.
So they are ither partly/wholly cybernetic beings sent by someone or acting on their own volition, one things remains the same - they're ancient.
Humans are about a million years old, civilisation started roughly 14000 years ago. The shivans did change. However, If you look at such an alien, multidimensional life form you will not notice. The semi robotic hulls might have changed a bit, but the concept remains the same. Theres no need to change it, is there?
That thing alone answers why they have zero-G tendencies in their bodies - or why zero-G evolution has taken a toll on them - they've just spent so much time in space they evolved while doing so!
I dont think so. I think (if you read up) that what we can see of a shivan is a semi-robotic being ESPECIALLY designed for zero G operations. In their spaceships, creating gravity would only take up extra energy. So why waste it, when you can create a body to perfectly adapt to zero G environments? The shivans themselves, are probably not used to gravity either, at least not as we know it. The Vortex is too different to what we know
Back to the age stuff, if they are that old....and still not Gods.... they must have reached a static level of life or at least something - or they temselves - prevent them from evolving further (.....or degenerating too. Some believe the only evitable end of evolution is death and decay and only doom awaits at the end of the tunnel).
Once again, i dont think so. Theyre simply alien enough for us not to notice. Who will actually SEE a shivan (not the robotic armour suit) and who would UNDERSTAND it. Probably you need to be a shivan yourself to properly percieve a shivan at all.
So we have a bunch of cyborgs in a form that is milenias old (we don't know wheter they live that long, but their way of life and the way they handle things seems to suggest they are quite used to everything the universe may throw at them and simply stopped caring - they've always won, so they will win just like they did so far regardless setbacks).
Any multidimensional being is powerful. I'm pretty sure TIME is our fourth dimension (any three dimensional room can exist at infinite times, so that's quite four dimensional room we live it) - so imagine, they have infinite time to build their armada, they have probably control of other dimensions we dont even dream of.
Imagine the paper again. You can bend it around, and the creatures living on it will wonder why they can go easier in one direction, suddenly. you can poke holes through it, and they will claim 'that space vanishes'.
If their culture or customs are that ancient it has to be quite static or have a very strong basis to stand throughout the changes of history.
Before you go on and say "Good, now what about their motives?" let's ponder this a little more. Did we have smg. similar on Earth, during our own Terran history.
You won't really find examples withing your reach, for the Western/European/American culture was always in perril and such forms of state were impossible.
As Henry Kissinger puts it in the Introduction of his book "History of Diplomacy", in Europe where the land is small and resources are close the constant struggle of wills was seen as an insusrer of the greater peace.
However most of Earth never knew such belief! In the East, Asia was ruled by EMPIRES most of the time - they stood for hundred if not thousand years and the dimensions of an individual were far less important than his place in the greater picture.
If we can take any merit from the above, then I have to conclude that Shivans have IMPERIAL tendencies, not in the terms of the age of colonisation, but rather the very thoughts and ideals of living in a huge imperium.
Shivans are not in any way comparable to terrans. Theyre far older and have evolved a lot. Theyre far ABOVE terran standards. The only thing that counts is the communtiy, the Vortex.
The other possibility is that they resemble a more primitive form, the tribal society that has lived even today (please take a look at the Middle East). During our entire history some place on Earth were so harsh that it was impossible to maintian a stabile life - so only nomad tribes could exist.
Of course as technology advanced less and less places fir into the category, but who can say that were never setbacks, or other problems that arose with the effects of the said advancement on society (IMHO the several dictatorships and other late "cyberpunkish" tendencies around centralised power show this desire for the return an earlier "form of leadership" (with deadly promise for opposition) that can hold the society together).
Never the less tribal and dictatoric societies exit and I'm afraid that they will exist in the future too. These societies are very rigid by nature to ensure the sheer survival of the people when resources are far between.
This situations can arise anywhere in history so this form of society or just the general rigidness can arise time to time.
It is possible that Shivans inherited nomadic/tribal tendencies.
Again, I dont think there is such thing as a 'form of leadership' or anything. They KNOW about each other, they can share THOUGHTS with each other, they can BE each other, they can FEEL each other, you see.... theres no need for some being like this to have a state of any kind. Shivans are too superiour.
So if we look for the goals of Shivans we have 3 things to consider:
-Shivans are ancient--> imperial, nomad
-Subspace is damaged by its very use.
The Shivans could originate from an empire - their own, or their masters, that would explain the imperial part more clearly than the sheer time stuff (though such a mindset has a greater chance to endure time).
If it was their/their masters empire they must have used subspace - and an empire that old is beyond our imgination. It must have been huge.
However the greater the emire the heavier the subspace use - so in growing so big any empire in effect kills itself.
Asimov portreys this excelently in his Foundation novels - over centralisation leads to decay and eventual impossibility to keep the centre alive, while decentralisation leads to fragmentation of the state.
Seen above, don't think they have masters, I think they are their own masters, yet the are in unstopping communication with the Vortex, acting like a collective mind, as they can GATHER and COMBINE their thoughts and energies to achieve things a single shivan would never be able to.
You need a massive flow of matter and spirit (yes, spirit, a part of culture the general ideals and thought IMHO are just as important as goods), to maintain the empire - for the lack will separate the parts and either lead to fragmentation or an ever growing strain between the centre and the ruled worlds.
Either the Shivans or their Masters must have realised this - or they would have perished - so some measure was taken to prevent or reform the use of subspace.
Shivans never conquered worlds. You know they didnt cause they NEVER actually captured a planet or anything. They only get ahold of JUMP NODES. Wonder why? Read my theory
Shivans themselves only use 'subspace jumps' when they have to. They know about the effects, and they always knew. They get ATTRACTED by disturbances. It's in their nature. That's why theyre 'the great preservers'.
So a purpose of the Shivan is to solve the subspace crisis.
Going from the nomadic point of view Shivans could have been nomads all the time - however as simple nomads they would never rise to the piller of power they stand upon.
They either became nomads following a powerfull cataclysm ("their exile") or were created as wanderers to do their duty (monitoring/annihilting the leseer subspace users), it is also possible they were the nomads who brought down the empire before it could kill itself so subspace abuse, and live off the remains.
Shivans dont want to annihilate lesser subspace users. They NEED to prevent an apocalypse caused by massive subspace use. They can only focus on the greatest annoyances, little users will left unharmed. I'm not saying terrans are a great annoyance, theres probably much more powerful races the shivans are fighting. Yet theyre annoying enough for the shivans to care.
COCKYTUS -
viable without the center of universe - the galactic balckwhole would be just as good.
Their could be an alternate answer other than the regulation of subspace travel or annihilation:
I liked the Cockytus idea - by moving INTO SUBSPACE, a transfer system can be set up that can monitor and use subspace effectivly, with a carefull schedule and planning the effects of several and millions of vessels can be toned down.
Think of Lightspeed's glass with oild and water.
If you toned all the pokes to a rythm and the surface could keep up the pace - of course if you kept doing that eventually it would still be too much, but it would take a lot more effort.
It could be that that's what precisly happened. The empire thught they solved their problems, when a a couple of thousand years later they overstressed their new subspace, destroying their own civilisation - leaving the Shivans behind who vainly try to put things to their place "removing" off sync. interference who could casuse the breakdown - us and all the orher races, that have risen since the fall of the empire.
It is also possible that other events eventually consumed the empire leaving space for other races - however COCKYTUS is still there - with the promise of salvation.
However COCKYTUS was the empire's stronghold and centre, as well as the heart of the galaxy near the great black hole where subspace is smootherst.
A paradise in the abbys of death, guarded by the fiery dragons of an angry subspace enraged by mortals meddling with powers beyond their right.
very weird. Of course ther will be possibilities to use subspace without creating that much disturbance, but the shivans as remnants of a subspace using civilisation? That doesn't make sense. The shivans ARE subspace-native, else they would not act like they do, or care like they care. Subspace is not solid or anything anywhere. I think big gravity disturbes the barrier (as it would do in our glass) -- so theyre easy to make since you can PENETRATE the barrier more easily. You still do the same (actually even more!) damage though.
SUBSPACE
We don't live in a 4 dimensional time space, we live in multidimensional one. Stephan Hawkings already mentioned this theory in the "Brief History of Time" - he used the orange aproximation.
When you look at an orange from distance you can pretty much say it's a sphere - however if you look close you can notice all the small bumbs and trenches on the surface.
The same stands for the other dimensions - they don't come into play unless events take place on a miniscule scale - quantum phisic scale.
Latest studies try to explain this even without addition of new "dimensions". Instead - as far as I could understand - they explained it as if space could "wrap around itself" creating small pockets of universe.
Of cource these wraps have an edge - that's where you can enter.
However it seems the laws of physics aply everywherer - so gravity, electromagnetic fields, weak and strong interaction can intervince.
Gravity is special since it practically wraps space if some of Einstein's laws are viewed in that fashion, so gravity can disturb these pockets, and create an opportunity to enter - thereby a node.
IMHO subspace is not homogene, it is fractured in most of the universe but around big masses with great gravitiy it is more solid than elsewhere - this is the reason intra system jumps are esier to make.
Subspace is too high for any human to understand. However, we DO live in a multi dimensional room, yet our understanding is limited to 4 dimensions. We can possibly feel effects of other dimensions but we will never be able to distinguish or call them something. I think the scale can be quite big too, its just that at micro scale the things get difficult enough so we NEED more dimensions to explain as the effects are more apparent. However, I BET theres a LOT more things influenced by thousands of dimensions we dont have the slightest idea of. Even shivans have their limits ;) Subspace nodes are weak points in the multidimensional room. Imagine the paper again. We force a pen through it. You can move to the edge -- you will notice youre suddenly moving easier toward the 'unknown' than back, you will be PULLED into it, you cannot move back anymore. AAAND--- you'll fall off the paper. Of course you do not KNOW you did or do since you cannot percieve it, but you will have trouble :)
You will possibly land on the paper again, which is wrapped up. But you will land on a VERY distant point. You'll not KNOW the paper is wrapped though as it seems straight to you, in your bent 2-dimensional room. Same thing with gravity. The thrird dimension bends around it, we do not see it though? why? since the fourth dimension (time) is not visible to us. Yet we can PROVE that time changes ar very high speeds (infinite mass -- GRAVITY) or at high gravity. Same thing then again with subspace. It's influenced by a lot of things -- for example time and gravity
phew
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Good theories, all, but, uhhh.... obsessive much? :eek2:
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Does it not feel good to get away from reality.
Obsession, there is no greater joy
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Originally posted by Beowulf
Good theories, all, but, uhhh.... obsessive much? :eek2:
Once you have a proper theory in place it makes for a better campaign since you know why the Shivans are doing things, what Bosch was up to etc.
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The only problem Lightspeed with that theory is that in an obscure VBB post a person at Volition (Pletcher I believe, I could be wrong) stated in a thread speculating what a Shivan was like within their suit, that it wasn't so much a suit, but a real Shivan.
In that thread, the energy weapon being used as support for their being energy based as used, as well as the Shivans exploding in Hallfight.
It turns out, that the explosion is from a grenade fired by the GTA marines, and the weapon is just that, a weapon.
I'm sure somewhere out there is probably a hard copy of the post I'm referring to.
Plus since the Shivans are symptoms of a larger problem, what is the problem?
The biggest clues: FreeSpace is another word used for Subspace, Shivans seem to have a nasty habit of blowing everything up that actively uses subspace. We don't know why they haven't blown up the Knossos portals, for all we know the Shivans might have destroyed most of them. Of course the fact that Bosch was able to communicate is another clue. What does this all add up to? We'll never know :)
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yeah there not robo suits, the shivans arn't majical multi-dimentional superbeangs who's very matter we can't comprehend,
if that were true thay would simply atack us at our weakest, and point between about 100 years ago and 5 billion years ago, as you said, there multi-dimentional, therefore they can atack us at any point in any time, they can move into the past like we could walk across the room, wich they havn't done.
they are simply VERY old beings, I think they evolved in space, in ether some astroid feild or debris filled nebula, but they are so unfathomably anchent that they might have been humonoid ( :ha: ) at one point, we know that they have been cleaning space of anything they felt like with god like power for at least 8,000 years (and that they were at least a formitable force for a long time before), that alone is enough for them to have the power to bend stars to will, but there is every indication.(includeing what V had said) that they are MUCH older than that.
they are simply the 'super death aliens', anything you put up aganst them they will crush without effort.
what I wanted in FS3 is some sort of temporary victory, wich in terms of humanity would be a total victory, but the shivans would see simply as a temporary loss (we kick them out of our galixy, but they can afford to send planet sized super killertrons in normal space takeing several million years to reach us) eventualy they'd win.
I wanted it to be shown that they simply havn't even seen us yet, and we do something that not only get there atention but rightly pisses them off something feirce, then we get bomber sized shivan ships ripping destroyers in half in seconds followed by ships the size of small moons with power levels in scale or greater, things that the only thing you can do effectivly is run from.
hell it would be nice if the Shivans just out right wiped man kind out of exsistance and you just had to sit there and watch, maybe try your best to slow them down
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Originally posted by jdjtcagle
Also how do freespace ships turn?
I have accepted the fact, why the ships just stop when no power is directed to the engines.
I've .rar'ed and uploaded an AVI showing exactly how they stop... :D
www.sectorgame.com/ahtw/other/FS_Stopping.rar (1.4 MB)
...
give it 7 minutes from my post to finish uploading...
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The only problem Lightspeed with that theory is that in an obscure VBB post a person at Volition (Pletcher I believe, I could be wrong) stated in a thread speculating what a Shivan was like within their suit, that it wasn't so much a suit, but a real Shivan.
In that thread, the energy weapon being used as support for their being energy based as used, as well as the Shivans exploding in Hallfight.
It turns out, that the explosion is from a grenade fired by the GTA marines, and the weapon is just that, a weapon.
I'm sure somewhere out there is probably a hard copy of the post I'm referring to.
Plus since the Shivans are symptoms of a larger problem, what is the problem?
The biggest clues: FreeSpace is another word used for Subspace, Shivans seem to have a nasty habit of blowing everything up that actively uses subspace. We don't know why they haven't blown up the Knossos portals, for all we know the Shivans might have destroyed most of them. Of course the fact that Bosch was able to communicate is another clue. What does this all add up to? We'll never know
Yeah it's not just a suit. It's something like a cyborg. A modified body to be able to get to us in our dimensions. To exist outside subspace.
The explosion... I haven't referred to it in the slightest.
About the weapon. How STUPID would that be? I mean, look: The shivans use their plasma claws (those ARE weapons) to kill every single terran. And then the almighty mega shivan uses a plasma cannon which is prolly strong enough to blast a ship to pieces. What for? Why not use the claw? Showing off isn't really an option since nobody from the GTA/PVN will ever have seen it. IMHO most of Volition didn't know what each other thought, have a look at the FS1 tables... I think the... teamwork... could've been better :)
The larger problem. The multidimensional collapse of the world. They're only a part of that problem because they want to stop it, though they're obviously a problem for the GTVA.
I agree we can never know, but there's very simple & good theories that can be made up, and all clues in that last paragraph of yours fit my theory precisely :)
----
yeah there not robo suits, the shivans arn't majical multi-dimentional superbeangs who's very matter we can't comprehend,
if that were true thay would simply atack us at our weakest, and point between about 100 years ago and 5 billion years ago, as you said, there multi-dimentional, therefore they can atack us at any point in any time, they can move into the past like we could walk across the room, wich they havn't done.
You didn't read my posts, did you? ;)
The shivans do NOT ATTACK ANYONE at a weak point. about 5 billion years ago I doubt any terran used subspace. I doubt 100 years ago they did. In FS, they did. The Shivans get attracted by subspace disturbances. This (of course) also applies to the time axis. Them not having to bother with time, though is the explanation for the Freespace facts: They wiped out the ancients thousands of years ago, they killed other races " Stretching back to Infinity" (like Bosch says) -- Time is no matter for the shivans. They do not *know* time as we do.
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Originally posted by Odyssey
[color=cc9900]Why not? Just because in our experience it isn't, doesn't mean it can't be. I might as well say:
ORGANIC BEINGS CANNOT BE ALIVE!!!!!111 period[/color]
No..you cannot say that since we ARE alive...or do you consider yourself to be undead?
And I base my conclusion on pure logic and pysical facts.
Energy beeings = rubbish!
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[color=cc9900]You wouldn't say that if you were an energy being.[/color]
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Originally posted by TrashMan
No..you cannot say that since we ARE alive...or do you consider yourself to be undead?
Somedays I really think that only the British get sarcasm. :D
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Originally posted by Hippo
I've .rar'ed and uploaded an AVI showing exactly how they stop... :D
www.sectorgame.com/ahtw/other/FS_Stopping.rar (1.4 MB)
...
give it 7 minutes from my post to finish uploading...
Do you have it in exe format.:D
Or self-extracting rar
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Originally posted by TrashMan
No..you cannot say that since we ARE alive...or do you consider yourself to be undead?
And I base my conclusion on pure logic and pysical facts.
Energy beeings = rubbish!
explain, with pure logic and physical facts: How does Freespace work?
*imagines Freespace in your eyes*
engines = rubbish
vasudans = rubbish
shivans = rubbish
ships controls = rubbish
sound = rubbish
weapon effects = rubbish
storyline = rubbish
*starts to wonder why you're playing science fiction games*
*wonders why you registered on a FS-related board*
:p :nod:
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I have a very different theory of the FS epos.
Long ago, the Universe was created by Us, the Gods. We created the Universe for the purpose of it creating Life. The Life which would grow in the Universe would evolve into Sentience. This Sentience was then able to ascend to a higher level - Our level, to stay by Our side ever wondering at the beauty of Creation.
Pretty religious, I know... now comes the fun part!
The Universe was given its own course of evolution, to create in it a sense of Near-Chaos, the ideal environment for Life. The randomness of its creation was left to the Universe itself. Everything went according to plan, except for a certain sector in the Brahma-mattercluster.
A mattercluster is what we now see as the Universe: a huge collection of matter that generated from a big bang. This mattercluster does have boundaries, and isn't the only one of its type. Many more matterclusters exist, pure nothingness between them.
Back to the story. The Brahma-cluster developed its galaxies at an unnaturel rate. While other clusters were still cooling off, Brahma was evolving much faster. This phenomena was not impossible, but the chances of it were practically nihil. The randomness that balances the evolution elsewhere was replaced by a terrifying perfection.
This perfect evolution led to the emergence of the Narvanii, a great, sophisticated race which developed the technology for Artificial Sentience. They created a project called 'Shiva', to end a war between three other species not far from their fragile civilization. They designed Shiva as a sort of supercomputer, destined to end all wars.
There you have it - I see the Shivans as a race of artificially intelligent machines which has a perfect understanding of the Universe. Every possibility was calculated. The Shivans were impossible to defeat, as they were perfect. It would take something impossible to take them down!
The Shivans were designed to end all wars. Unfortunately, the mere usage of subspace was designated as an act of war by the Shivans, so the Shivans spread out and killed everything everywhere. The Shivan Empire became so vast, and its grip on the Universe so unbreakable, that We, the Gods, had no alternative than the Dissolution of the Universe.
As we created the Universe, now we began with the undoing of it. Entire clusters were reduced to nothingness, and the Shivans along with them. This dissolution was coming to Andarta, the home-cluster of the Terrans and Vasudans - and it's the bigger problem the Shivans are the symptom of. In Capella the Shivan J-fleet created an inter-cluster jumpnode to escape the Dissolution. The GTVA has to do the same... or they will be de-rezzed!
I'm still working on the story, and I've got a detailed (and far better IMO) version of the story above. I'm putting it all in respect with the events of FreeSpace, the T-V War, the Hades Rebellion, Aken Bosch, and the destruction of Capella.
Tell me what you think!
Greetings, Terra-jin
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Well, it's a good story but seriously. It does not match or fit the Freespace Universe in the slightest.
-edit: Here:
Long ago, the Universe was created by Us, the Gods. We created the Universe for the purpose of it creating Life. The Life which would grow in the Universe would evolve into Sentience. This Sentience was then able to ascend to a higher level - Our level, to stay by Our side ever wondering at the beauty of Creation.
those are.... very human gods. And where do they come from? What are they? WHY?
Pretty religious, I know... now comes the fun part!
The Universe was given its own course of evolution, to create in it a sense of Near-Chaos, the ideal environment for Life. The randomness of its creation was left to the Universe itself. Everything went according to plan, except for a certain sector in the Brahma-mattercluster.
A mattercluster is what we now see as the Universe: a huge collection of matter that generated from a big bang. This mattercluster does have boundaries, and isn't the only one of its type. Many more matterclusters exist, pure nothingness between them.
Back to the story. The Brahma-cluster developed its galaxies at an unnaturel rate. While other clusters were still cooling off, Brahma was evolving much faster. This phenomena was not impossible, but the chances of it were practically nihil. The randomness that balances the evolution elsewhere was replaced by a terrifying perfection.
not one single link to the Freespace Universe up to here.
This perfect evolution led to the emergence of the Narvanii, a great, sophisticated race which developed the technology for Artificial Sentience. They created a project called 'Shiva', to end a war between three other species not far from their fragile civilization. They designed Shiva as a sort of supercomputer, destined to end all wars.
There you have it - I see the Shivans as a race of artificially intelligent machines which has a perfect understanding of the Universe. Every possibility was calculated. The Shivans were impossible to defeat, as they were perfect. It would take something impossible to take them down!
The shivans as peacemakers? No.
Some questions:
1) Why do the shivans lead a war against the terrans and vasudans when they should make peace?
2) Shivans are no machines. They’re at least semi organic
3) after FS1 there is no war to be found, yet the shivans re-emerge attacking everything like berserks.
4) If you’re arguing they end every war (NTF rebellion etc, inner species conflicts) why havent they shown up in the world wars? Why didn’t they appear at the start of the TV-War?
The Shivans were designed to end all wars. Unfortunately, the mere usage of subspace was designated as an act of war by the Shivans, so the Shivans spread out and killed everything everywhere. The Shivan Empire became so vast, and its grip on the Universe so unbreakable, that We, the Gods, had no alternative than the Dissolution of the Universe.
No makey sense. The idea of a GOD creating something with a bug like that seems not to fit. A GOD is capable of everything. Also, a god’d use less... violent ... ways to solve the conflicts if his purpose is freedom.
As we created the Universe, now we began with the undoing of it. Entire clusters were reduced to nothingness, and the Shivans along with them. This dissolution was coming to Andarta, the home-cluster of the Terrans and Vasudans - and it's the bigger problem the Shivans are the symptom of. In Capella the Shivan J-fleet created an inter-cluster jumpnode to escape the Dissolution. The GTVA has to do the same... or they will be de-rezzed!
Why don’t they contact us then? Why don’t they ally with the GTVA? Why SHOULD they escape? Creating interjumpnodes by blowing up stars? Good peacekeepers you got there.
Also, the whole thing does not have any reference from the Freespace series.
I'm still working on the story, and I've got a detailed (and far better IMO) version of the story above. I'm putting it all in respect with the events of FreeSpace, the T-V War, the Hades Rebellion, Aken Bosch, and the destruction of Capella.
If you succeed to match all that up with your theory I can only say you’re very talented. Since it does not fit in the slightest. However, it’s a cool story idea and i’m sure you could get a pretty good universe outta it. Simply don’t call it Freespace. It has NOTHING to do with the Freespace universe as it is portrayed in the games.
Re-read your theory. Read mine. Decide which fits the facts better :)
Still, I like your idea. Change the names around and create different events to show it, and you’ll have a pretty good universe to start a new campaign ;)
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
explain, with pure logic and physical facts: How does Freespace work?
*imagines Freespace in your eyes*
engines = rubbish
vasudans = rubbish
shivans = rubbish
ships controls = rubbish
sound = rubbish
weapon effects = rubbish
storyline = rubbish
*starts to wonder why you're playing science fiction games*
*wonders why you registered on a FS-related board*
:p :nod:
Coause I like Freespace.
And there are levels of impossibility.
Engines, Vasudans, ect..all those are hardly improbable, but not impossible.
Energy beeings are impossible.
I reckon most people think energy beeings can exist becoause human brain generates brainvawes, so the equation brainwaves=em waves= energy = tought = life migh works. But em waves are NOT toughts.. em waves traveling trough the brain (organic matter), interacting with it and producing different electrochemical effects - that is tought. It doesn't work without the organic/chemical part....no can do...
Others might think - the soul..well that's a form of energy.so why not.
well...no! we don't know what a soul exactly is, and well.. when you die and you soul leaves you're body...you're dead. A soul isn't alive...so how can we talk about a LIFE form?
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Coause I like Freespace.
And there are levels of impossibility.
Engines, Vasudans, ect..all those are hardly improbable, but not impossible.
Energy beeings are impossible.
I reckon most people think energy beeings can exist becoause human brain generates brainvawes, so the equation brainwaves=em waves= energy = tought = life migh works. But em waves are NOT toughts.. em waves traveling trough the brain (organic matter), interacting with it and producing different electrochemical effects - that is tought. It doesn't work without the organic/chemical part....no can do...
Others might think - the soul..well that's a form of energy.so why not.
well...no! we don't know what a soul exactly is, and well.. when you die and you soul leaves you're body...you're dead. A soul isn't alive...so how can we talk about a LIFE form?
lol!
Vasudans are impossible, for various reasons.
Have a look at the engines. Ships stop when you have no pwer directed to them, you can brake without having front thrusters, you can turn with only rear afterburners etc, etc.
You can hear sounds where you shouldnt.
etc.
Energy beings are possible. I dont have time right now but i'll explain later.
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SHIVANS=ANTARANS!!!1!!!11oneoneoneone
Honestly, hearing the lot of you in these heated discussions about what's "real" in Freespace is like hearing a bunch of guys debate whether a sentence is proper grammar in Klingon or someone just made it up. It's fiction, it's not even hard sci-fi, saying something is "impossible" when the original creators plainly weren't interested physics and so on is to miss the point. Getting all hot and bothered about it is tantamount to wearing a little sign on your forehead saying "I will never ever get laid" for everyone around to read. Get some perspective, sheez...
Personally, I prefer fiction that takes reality into full account, but that isn't really a battle you can pick now, it got decided before you even bought the bloody game and learned about it. If you wanna ***** at each others' theories, do it in the context of their own internal logic, don't try to bring in some crap that doesn't apply. Ten to one there are holes even in what little is there.
Anyway. I like my theory best. Always did.
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I've just finished watching a space-op anime called Uchuu no Stellvia, and, right now, I've got a very simple idea on what happened at Capella. What if the Shivan were simply fed up with those two races resisting them ? We can be nearly sure that the armada shown during the Second Great War wasn't even a fraction of their true number. So, sacrifying a few of their numbers, they decide to create a supernova, and let the after effects of the supernova deal with them. I don't remember the distance between Capella and the other systems (and I'm too lazy to search for it :p ) , but a supernova can be felt quite a few light years away...
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The Shivans ate my homework.
This thread makes my head hurt
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Shivans are Humans from Future 10.000.000years:p :ha: ;)
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
The shivans as peacemakers? No.
Some questions:
1) Why do the shivans lead a war against the terrans and vasudans when they should make peace?
2) Shivans are no machines. They’re at least semi organic
3) after FS1 there is no war to be found, yet the shivans re-emerge attacking everything like berserks.
4) If you’re arguing they end every war (NTF rebellion etc, inner species conflicts) why havent they shown up in the world wars? Why didn’t they appear at the start of the TV-War?
Although I don't share his almost religious views of freespace, I can clear out some points of his view for you....
1 - He didn't use the word peacekeepers anywhere in his post, so reread it. I'll explain a bit ahead what he meant.
2 - Here's where you can and can't be right at the same time, you could in theory build organic (or semi-organic) computers.
3 - If you read his post with atention you'd find this.
Unfortunately, the mere usage of subspace was designated as an act of war by the Shivans
So this is where I explain his views of "machines to stop all wars".
To stop all wars, one doesn't need to be a friendly diplomat with good relation with other countries, imagine you could construct the perfect shield, no weapon could penetrate it, etc... If everyone used those things that could be considered a "device that stoped (or ended) all wars". The same could (in theory) be accomplished with a defensive weapon.
So according to him the shivans were some sort of military bots designed to attack everything that was hostile to them (according to what was designated as an act of war to them, like Shiva-jin Buu said). Let's look at a modern example... the US are said to be the police of the globe, and still they blow from time to time a country or 2 (slightly exagerated notion I know :D).
4 - They most probably didn't trace it fast enough on the last and the world wars they most likely didn't detect anything, because unlike in YOUR theory they can't go back in time in his!!
... I'll post my theory on FreeSpace later :thepimp: :mad2: :devil:
P.S.
Could someone show me HOW can an energy life form exist?
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
[...]
Could someone show me HOW can an energy life form exist?
You didnt put much attention to my post either :)
My main complaint was, why would gods (lets assume theyre almighty) create sumething with such an obvious flaw, with such a big bug, like the shivans have in his theory? They created life, and the shivans, instead of preventing war, eliminate all life forms simply because they use subspace?
You can do everything with energy. Create matter, heat stuff, produce light, produce magnetic fields, have gravity, split matter, drain energy...
It is possible :)
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No...
Read his post more carefully and you will see.
He says God created the universe, nothing more... then he says....
The Universe was given its own course of evolution
Then a race, not god, created the shivans.
This perfect evolution led to the emergence of the Narvanii, a great, sophisticated race which developed the technology for Artificial Sentience. They created a project called 'Shiva', to end a war between three other species not far from their fragile civilization. They designed Shiva as a sort of supercomputer, destined to end all wars.
And gods may be almighty but they sometimes can't be omnicient (how do you spell it?). As an example, see the greek-roman gods.
As for the shivans eliminating all life remember... to the shivans the use of subspace is as threatning as the use of a gun. And if every race stopped using weapons and subspace, it could stop the slaughter...
Of course this is his theory. I don't know every single detail. :rolleyes:
Shiva-jin Buu come defend your theory! :mad:
Moving on to the second point (energy beings)
How can they mantain integrity? And doesn't energy need a fisical form (an object) to fuction? (light is energy by the way... methinks.... ;) )
P.S.
Isn't gravity a consequence of having mass. Isn't it considered a "force" rather than energy? Or is it the same thing?
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
lol!
Vasudans are impossible, for various reasons.
Have a look at the engines. Ships stop when you have no pwer directed to them, you can brake without having front thrusters, you can turn with only rear afterburners etc, etc.
You can hear sounds where you shouldnt.
etc.
Energy beings are possible. I dont have time right now but i'll explain later.
Actually, the ships have thrusters in all directions, at least on the concept pics. By using such thrusthers you can simulate a atmospheric fighter. Alltough I doubt that both Vasudans and Shivans would use the same concept.
Could it be tha the sounds ae generated by the pilot's helm? Directional sounds have proven to improve the pilots reflexes by quite a bit.
Energy beeing are not possible. There is NO WAY energy can be alive, or for it to have toughts.
You can do lot's with energy, but not everything.
And If energy is alive, then I just spent 40 Watts of life forms;7
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life is unexplanable. Yet it has symptoms. And those symptoms can also be created with energy alone :)
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Right.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
life is unexplanable. Yet it has symptoms. And those symptoms can also be created with energy alone :)
Oh boy...what rubbish....:lol:
As Spock would say : "Highly unlogical!"
But just for the fun of it -
Oh? What simptoms?
And even if it was possible for energy to be alive, it can't be inteligent. And if Shivans are energy, how can they build fighters?
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[color=cc9900]I believe Spock would say something more along the lines of "Highly illogical".
But anyway, I don't think he'd say it. We don't have any proof that energy beings exist, and we don't have any that they don't since we don't know everything in the universe on a sub-atomic scale. Therefore, it's not illogical to theorise that it's possible for energy beings to exist. It is however illogical to flat-out say "energy beings do not exist", since you have no base for your comments other than experience of an incredibly limited area of the Universe.[/color]
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1 - How would energy beings mantain such a level of integrity?
2 - How would they perform the things you say they could without a "body" to work on?
3 - How would they multiply?
4 - How would they get the energy (in their case, the "bio-matter" in the sense they are made by energy) to perform such tasks?
etc... etc... etc...
Energy is never, never that organized, so it couldn't be alive... energy is being constantly created and destroyed, so any "living being" you might create made out of energy would be destroyed very quickly without ever leaving a trace of their existence behind (in simpler words, no descendant).
Where was I? Who yes... What exactly do you mean by energy?
What kind of energy?
P.S.
Life is explainable... getting a definition for it is hard... explaining it is not.
Here's a few links to satisfy your thirst of knowledge while I go kick some shivan ass all over again. :devil: :mad2:
Something I found (http://www.geog.ouc.bc.ca/physgeog/contents/9a.html) and another thing I found (http://baharna.com/philos/life.htm)
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[color=cc9900]I never said I believed or didn't believe in energy beings, just that it's terminally dumb just to sit and say "They do not exist".
How energy beings would work if they did exist is irrelevant. Some kind of incredibly simplified photosynthesis would be fun though. Or hyper-intelligent shades of the colour blue. It's all good.[/color]
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
1 - How would energy beings mantain such a level of integrity?
2 - How would they perform the things you say they could without a "body" to work on?
3 - How would they multiply?
4 - How would they get the energy (in their case, the "bio-matter" in the sense they are made by energy) to perform such tasks?
etc... etc... etc...
Energy is never, never that organized, so it couldn't be alive... energy is being constantly created and destroyed, so any "living being" you might create made out of energy would be destroyed very quickly without ever leaving a trace of their existence behind (in simpler words, no descendant).
Where was I? Who yes... What exactly do you mean by energy?
What kind of energy?
P.S.
Life is explainable... getting a definition for it is hard... explaining it is not.
Here's a few links to satisfy your thirst of knowledge while I go kick some shivan ass all over again. :devil: :mad2:
Something I found (http://www.geog.ouc.bc.ca/physgeog/contents/9a.html) and another thing I found (http://baharna.com/philos/life.htm)
1) There's no need for integrity. You seem to think about 'living energy men that walk around'. It would probably more be some kind of n-dimensional cloud of energy. The needed 'integrity' can be reached by electromagnetic fields, gravity, light or whatever you prefer.
2) Shivans are not 3-dimensional, they can channel their energies. They can TRANSFORM them.
Matter is a form of energy (it can be dissolved to energy again)
Anti-Matter is a form of energy (it can be dissolved to energy again)
Light is a form of energy (it can be dissolved to energy again)
Temperature is a form of energy (it can be dissolved to energy again)
Gravity is a form of energy (it can be dissolved to energy again)
Force is a form of energy (it can be dissolved to energy again)
Sounds are a form of energy (they can be dissolved to energy again)
chemical compounds contain a form of energy (they can be split to set free energy again)
You see, once you can control energy you can do lots of things with it. Like creating matter, like heating things, like moving things, like building things.
3) By 'eating'. It's like an energy pump. Energy is used up, and energy is gained (sucked out of the ambience). If no energy is used up for a long time, the energy will reach a critical amount, the 'integrity' will fail, and the energy will split up, allowing it to re-form into 2 or more different clouds.
4) which tasks? As energy they have no chance in our 3-dimensional room to do anything. Theyre not even an energy form as we know it. Theyre neither heat, temperature, light, magnetic fields, sonic, or anything else we know of. They're n-dimensional energies. For anything they need to do with the 3rd dimension they will create those who we call shivans. Simplified bodies especially designed for zero-g, controlled by a shivan, in contact with the Vortex at all times.
Could be any kind of energy, we do not know. We know but a VERY small fraction of energy forms that exist. It's probably too complex for a terran to understand anyway. We do not even understand our own life, so how could we possibly understand such really alien life forms?
As for your sites:
Though focussed on what we know as life there's a lot of similarities you see
(2). Living things have the ability to take energy from their environment and change it from one form to another. This energy is usually used to facilitate their growth and reproduction. We call the process that allows for this facilitation metabolism.
- hmmm... look at 2.
(4). Living creatures respond to stimuli. Cues in their environment cause them to react through behavior, metabolism, and physiological change.
- shivans are attracted by subspace use. Hmm...
(5). Living things reproduce themselves by making copies of themselves. Reproduction can either be sexual or asexual. Sexual reproduction involves the fusing of haploid genetic material from two individuals. This process creates populations with much greater genetic diversity.
- granted, theres no genetic material but look at 3.
(6). Organisms tend to grow and develop. Growth involves the conversion of consumed materials into biomass, new individuals, and waste.
- energy forms being transformed into those which shivans consist of.
Simply the fact that we have not yet discovered any energetic beings, or that we could explain how on earth they should work, does not mean there arent any. I'm pretty sure we HAVE already met some, or they are right here. We do not know, though. With our view limited to three dimensions, and our other human restrictions (we have too much filters in our perception) we will probably never notice or be able to explain anything like energetic beings.
But anyway, I don't think he'd say it. We don't have any proof that energy beings exist, and we don't have any that they don't since we don't know everything in the universe on a sub-atomic scale. Therefore, it's not illogical to theorise that it's possible for energy beings to exist. It is however illogical to flat-out say "energy beings do not exist", since you have no base for your comments other than experience of an incredibly limited area of the Universe.
We do not know about our universe yet. We do not know about higher dimensions. We do not know anything certain about gravity and time. We do not know what exactly light or energy is. All we have is a few theories, some of them contradicting each other, but all of them forming together to what we call 'science'. Seriously, whoever thinks humans are like gods and know anything for certain need to be kicked. It's more than illogical to say energy beings do not exist.
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Allrighty then, I've come to defend my theory!!! (thanks for the support, Ghostavo ;))
I use the theme perfection as something as arcane as the Gods themselves. They had the Universe develope with the randomization, and yet the perfect enviroments and events existed to lead the Narvanii into creating the Shivans.
The main Shivan computer, Shiva, is perfect, or all-knowing. They don't need war-experience, they already know everything. And they use that all-knowingness to carry out their only objective: to end all wars. Unfortunately, the Shivans realize that War is part of life, and therefore end all life.
The reason why the Gods made the 'flaw' that led to the Shivans, is that they, too, are NOT perfect, therefore they are powerless against the Shivans. Realizing this, they un-do the entire Universe while they're at it.
The only thing that could stop the Shivans is something impossible, since every possible course of events is calculated by the Shivans. I still haven't decided what that impossibility is, but I like the idea of the defeat of the Lucifer being impossible by Shivan standards.
Here are some brainstorms of mine, trying to answer the fundamental FS questions.
How did the Narvanii create the Shivans?
The project Shiva was not life at all. It was an artificial sentience and therefore had no feelings or flaws. Shiva was a computer program that was programmed to end all wars in the Universe. The Narvanii had programmed it this way, because they sought to relieve the Universe from the terror of warfare. However, they, too, were mercilessly slaughtered by Shiva, even though they were her creators. After all, Shiva was programmed to end all wars, and the Shivans interpreted the Narvanii’s attempt at deactivating Shiva as an act of war. They didn’t feel any remorse, not even for their creators.
They created it by having the technology to create artificial intelligence, though this project actually had the complexity of natural life - which created Shiva’s perfection.
What was the meaning of the whole part with Bosch? Why did he disappear with a Shivan transport, while the rest of his crew was slaughtered by the Shivans? Why would the Shivans want to take Bosch away?
The prospect of re-programming came to mind, as the Shivans are in essence an armada of machines driven by a computer program. However, this feels too anti-climactic as yet, so a deeper explanation is required; perhaps of Shiva evolving from an artificial sentience into a real sentience. Now that sounds better, doesn’t it?
The Shivans were never interested in life, or anything for that matter. They only carried out Shiva’s original mission: to end all wars in the Universe. Because of this, the Shivans didn’t capture Bosch because they were interested in him, the Terran Race, the first ETAK ever, or anything.
Perhaps Bosch had learned how to command the Shivans through ETAK, altering their programming. For all we know, Bosch could have (accidentally?) ordered the destruction of Capella!
Bosch was probably taken away because he knew that the GTVA was hot on his trail, trying to capture him, and throw him before the court martial. I think he simply asked the Shivans to take him away, so he could die in freedom.
What is the story behind the remaining Archeii portals? Why did the Shivans preserve those? Does that technology surpass even that of the Shivans?
The Shivans are known to occupy all of space. We also know that every trace of each victim civilization is erased from history. However, the Archeii have stored records of their own Great War in various sites on their planets. These weren’t destroyed by the Shivans, and neither were the portals; they were even used often. Perhaps the Shivans spared them because they were different in some way.
No, perhaps the Shivans kept life under a sentient level. When the life they combated was extinguished, the Shivans wouldn’t destroy every trace of them.
The Archeii portals are likely inter-galactic jumpnodes, and the Shivans kept using them for their own. It does feel a bit un-Shivan that they would adapt to technology. They were already perfect, right?
Why did the Shivans destroy the Capella star? Where does the new Jump Node lead to?
The fact that the Shivans destroyed Capella raises many questions. Perhaps the Shivans knew that the Dissolution was coming onto Via Lacta, Andarta, so it could have been an evacuation. It was certainly not an act of war against the GTVA, as they were ignored by the J-fleet.
The supernova leaves questions too. Perhaps the Shivans used a supernova not to create a portal, but to cut us off from their space. However, it seems highly unlikely that this could be a plausible solution. The best answer is that the Shivans indeed tried to evacuate their system. The ‘why’ is another story, as the Shivans are supposed to guard each galaxy with equally sized fleets; which makes it less plausible for the Shivans if they would evacuate anything at all.
The jumpnode most certainly leads to another galaxy, or even another cluster. No contest here, as the Shivans probably wouldn’t have used such awesome power on a regular node.
What bigger problem is it that the Shivans are the symptom of?
Perhaps it is the Great Dissolution of the Universe by Them. However, the Shivans are more of a cause than a symptom in respect to the Dissolution. On another hand, the Terrans don’t know about that, so it could be viewed as a symptom. In any case, the Dissolution is definitely a bigger problem than the Shivans, since the Shivans are most likely evacuating Andarta, we have to find a way to follow them, or we will be reduced to Nothingness.
Any other bigger problem than the Great Destroyers, holding the Universe in an icy lockdown, is hard to think up, to say the least…
Why did the Shivans disappear, instead of actually being defeated after the Great War? What occupation do they have in a single galaxy? Why did they return to GTVA space in the Second Great War?
The Shivan Force is precisely what they need. They are perfect, and know everything. They created the force they needed for each war.
The Shivans first wave of vessels was a scouting party, which suggests the Shivans have a far greater fleet. However, those scouting parties are singularly capable of obliterating advanced civilizations. So perhaps Shiva had, in all her perfection, calculated the chance of a situation like the Great War, and created the secondary fleet. The J-fleet’s function is clearly to create inter-cluster jumpnodes.
The Shivan scouting party of the Great War disappeared, instead of actually being defeated. This must have something to do with the Shivan Ascending process. It needed an impossibility. Was it impossible to defeat the Lucifer? YEAH.
The Shivans use a fixed number of juggernauts to power up an inter-cluster jumpnode. Perhaps the destroyed juggernaut had to be compensated by the four juggernauts that remained behind in Capella during the supernova.
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1 - Integrity is needed or else your energy beings will dissipate, be used by someone (that would be a laugh) or would become to disperse to act strongly enough to do what it wants to do.
Show me how can any of those things be done with only energy, no machine etc...
2 - I wasn't talking about shivans, or else I wouldn't say How would they perform the things you say they could without a "body" to work on?
I was talking about energy beings (composed only by energy)
Saying "Something is a form of energy (it can be dissolved to energy again)" is incorrect or at least extremely wierd. How can you say something is energy and then saying it can be dissolved to energy again if it supposedly it was energy in the first place?
Matter is not energy, anti-matter is not energy. Only together can they create energy.
3 - Again, without a device to properly use energy you can't do that, pure energy (if such thing exists) can't do anything alone!!! Read above point (1) about the reproduction problems.
4 - Again I'm not talking about a bloody shivan!!! Shivans are not energy life forms... Either they are machines with biological components or they are cyborgs (same thing? or not?).
Either way they are alive.
How can energy control itself so it creates matter and anti-matter? (and making both unstable enough that they don't react with one another by the way)
Now for the remarks on those sites (purely stuff I picked up on the last minute) :P
That's right.... not talking about bloody shivans!!!! Leave them alone. I was talking about an uniquely energy being (not made out of anything else but energy, and matter isn't energy). And no I don't think of it as a man form made out of energy.
Energy can't think.
Energy can't move things without being applied to something.
Energy can't do anything alone!!
P.S.
By your definition of energy, we are all energy beings, and since you don't believe that (or else you would have mentioned it before) I sugest you revise its definition.
And for the rest of you guys, you are debating this like a philosofical discussion instead of a cientific one... present some facts will you?
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
Matter is not energy, anti-matter is not energy. Only together can they create energy.
Your assumption that you need matter and antimatter to create energy is incorrect. You can convert one or the other to energy. Study up on the mass defect of atoms and you'll see how partial convertion occurs during nuclear fusion or fission.
Personally I agree that energy creatures are pretty much impossible but since half of the stuff in FS2 is stupidly impossible too I'm really not going to complain about it :D
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
And for the rest of you guys, you are debating this like a philosofical discussion instead of a cientific one... present some facts will you?
[color=cc9900]You want facts in a theoretical discussion debating the token bad guys in an arcade-esque game?[/color]
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After reading all of this I have come to a shocking conclusion - either the human race is de-evolving (which can be easily seen by the sheer lack of intelligence in some posts) or it was allways dumb, only people notice it more these days.:D
For the Xth time..
Energy CANNOT be alive.
We all know that all living beeings have certain qualitys - those qualities the energy doesn't have! All we know about energy SUGGESTS that it can't be alive.
Energy is constant. It cannot be destroyed. So "energy beeings" couldn't multiply and would be immortal (so to say)..
And futhermore...
BAH.. I give up.. It's like talking to a brick wall
I suppose I won't be able to convince you in the error of your ways, but neither can you convince me, so there's no point in continuing..
And if you really belive that, then I don't wonder anymore where the stupid sects find their belivers. Within people who will belive anything...
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Matter can't be created either...
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quote:
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
And for the rest of you guys, you are debating this like a philosofical discussion instead of a cientific one... present some facts will you?
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You want facts in a theoretical discussion debating the token bad guys in an arcade-esque game?
For the last time, I wasn't talking about shivans, I was talking about the impossibility that are "energy life forms"
I wasn't talking about anyone's theory when I was trying to debate the current topic. So please don't come talking about with shivans or anything of the sort.
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[color=cc9900]Ghostavo: Sorry mate, my mistake.
TrashMan: You're almost as bad as Kazan in an argument... We do not know that energy beings exist, but we don't know that they don't, so even though because we've never seen them they're unlikely to exist, it is still possible. There are no definites involved either way, however wrong it sounds (and believe me, it doesn't sound quite right to me either).[/color]
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@ the discussion about energy beings:
well since you dont seem to refer to my theory at all, then, i guess its useless to go on. You dont seem to have even read it :)
I thought we were talking about the same thing, but obviously; we weren't.
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[color=cc9900]Lightspeed: I have to say, your theories make the most sense out of all the serious ones posted so far. If that's any consolation ^_^[/color]
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Ok... so when some of us meet such a life form we can actually have something important to say about it! :D :lol:
I've read your theory... I don't like the way you considering the shivans some kind of puppets, and I find it wierd that the idea of subspace being trashed (in a way, can't explain better, lack of better english :sigh: ) is being used by so many people without being refered in the game, must be popular I guess.
In my view, shivans are the remainings of an old civilization that did experiments on itself or on another being and now it behaves like the beast did in Homeworld: Cataclysm except without the megalomania, the conqueror will and that beam.
They just.... hang around I guess :D. (just kidding)
The motives however I don't have a clue.
Blowing up Capella shocked me, in the beggining I though the J-fleet around the star was going to open some sort of portal or activate a weapon.
I suspect the shivans were just as shocked as I was... :ha: :devil:
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
I've read your theory... I don't like the way you considering the shivans some kind of puppets, and I find it wierd that the idea of subspace being trashed (in a way, can't explain better, lack of better english :sigh: ) is being used by so many people without being refered in the game, must be popular I guess.
do I consider the shivans puppets? where?
As for suspace being damaged... I reckon i'm the first one to mention it (although I havent been around quite a long time so i wouldn't know) ~ and it is hinted in the game. :)
Listen to Bosch's monologues (in the english version, some of the translations make no sense at all) and you'll see ;) Also, the ancients monologues from FS1 can be quite helpful.
@oddysey: :)
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When you say that the shivans are "modified" "real" shivans (wow) the "modified" shivans are kind of being used as puppets since they don't have the needs of the "real" shivans and I assume nor free will.
Unless I'm mistaken or misled of course
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Energy beings are possible.
Sheesh I've read so STUPID theories.
Trashman - you're right energy won't change and mutilate as flesh - but neither do atoms work like that!
Your body and life is just a huge chemical reaction.
It's too simplistic and novel to thing of energy beings as bodies or actual shapes filled with light or whaterev - leaves those for the space operas.
Energy beings would be made of looping stuctures or electromagnetic waves that converge on themselves, preventing the photons from going off in all direction.
Of course such a secluded creature wouldn't work, so he would constantly loose some of his matter - thereby it would constantly have to capture "ligt or any radiation to exist".
This is the complete equvivalent of you - you just take energy in a raw form and free it through chemical reactions.
Don't think of the actual energy as being alive - it's just as dead as the cabon atoms in your molecules.
What's alive in an energy being is the structure.
The brain in just a huge web of condensators, never the less it works - if you create rings and other self envoloping shapes from energy the self-interference will actually preserve it somewhat (IIRC that's also an explanation for the existance of electron patheses in an atom) - you have the building blocks of the brain.
These stuctures of energy similar to the various structures the electrons take on around the atome core could interact in a variety of ways, so there is a more than average chance for change and development - even wihtout mutating factors like background radiation - which could literally shred the body of these beings apart, who could either reassemble themselves or vanish...
Please note - this creatures could be huge taking on proportions similar to an entire solar systems with "life" going very slowly inside them or they could be smaller than a celll for all we know.
You probably also wouldn't be able to see them , and the energy levels that surround us may be leathel for them....or it could be the other way arround, they contain such huge gigantic ammounts of energy that a careless slip of their "finger" would incinerate the Earth.
We don't know if electromagnetic waves can't form complex structures, but neither do we know if they can.
'til then this remains just speculation, but just outright BLOWING into each other face that:
"ENERGY CAN't BE ALIVE!"
"YES IT CAN!"
- that won't solve anything.
For some reason I don't believe they could live anywhere in a solar system, deep space seems much better for that kind of life - but I doubt the Shivans would be energy beings.....they would be way too alien - and wouldn't use ships to begin with.
If they had the power to stay alive and do us any harm - they could just collapse the entire cluster where the GTVA resides.
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
When you say that the shivans are "modified" "real" shivans (wow) the "modified" shivans are kind of being used as puppets since they don't have the needs of the "real" shivans and I assume nor free will.
Unless I'm mistaken or misled of course
You're miataken :)
Imagine humans would have 100% control of their genetic materials. If they were to settle on too hostile planets they would alter their bodies to fit the environment. We obiously still would have a free will.
Thanks for backing me up Flaser :)
The reason shivans are using ships and they don't seem so 'alien' is that they cannot.
Shivans have no way to exist outside subspace, they would simply die if they ever left it. The only way to get straight to us for them is to create physical bodies, half robotic and half organic (much like a space suit, only even more extreme). Thats also the reason why they build ships. Yet where they can they remain using energy: - they prefer lasers - they have beam cannons (first) - they have some kind of plasma claws as weapons.
Can also be seen in their transport, all those sparkling thingies. This also explains the red pulsating stuff on their ships.
--- kinda off topic now, but some additions to my theory:
Shivans seem to have a liking towards nebula regions, that's where they come from, in most cases. That's perfectly explainable. While watching the 'Bosch in the Nebula' monologue again, I realised that a nebula is indeed the remnants of a super nova -- just like capella will be. Thus the point in space where the subspace barrier will be most stable, is around nebula regions. And who knows? Maybe Gamma Draconis, was the downfall of the Ancients. ('Have the shivans been waiting for us..... all these years?') - Bosch realizes that this very old nebula (maybe millions of years old) might indeed be caused by the shivans, just like they will later on blow up capella. That's probably for the first time that he notices HOW old the shivans indeed are. That's also the reason why he does feel so insecure and uneasy. The shivans are millions of years old -- and probably nobody had succeeded in achieving what he had planned.
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If I really wanted I could write 20 pages of reaseons why energy can't be alive (and it isn't), but it won't do any good.
And I have disscussed this with chemistry, physics and biology professors and they all agree...
Belive whatever you want...I know the truth...
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Your belief in all-knowing mankind is... astonishing :)
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Ther are SOME things we know for sure....laws of the universe and physics and all...
But if you want a bit more of an explenation.
Energy is a flow of electrons. Chatoic in nature, uncontolable on small scale.
It has cretain laws that it follows (like we all know how lightning works - that it will allways search the path to ground where there are ositivly charged ions..)
Energy isn't tought. Energy cannot think. It cannot re-produce. It doesn't feel. It doesn't have senses.
Hell, I would like for such beeing to exist!
That would increase our chances that we are not alone in the universe, and such creatures are an interesting concept.
But between beliving ain everything and beliving in nothing, there must be balance. I belive the things that are plausable.
Sadly, energy beeings are not...
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Energy is a flow of electrons. Chatoic in nature, uncontolable on small scale.
It has cretain laws that it follows (like we all know how lightning works - that it will allways search the path to ground where there are ositivly charged ions..)
Energy isn't tought. Energy cannot think. It cannot re-produce. It doesn't feel. It doesn't have senses.
energy isn't thought. I never said that.
But look at it this way:
chemical compounds arent thought. They cannot think. They cannot reproduce. We can put up certain laws they follow blindly. They do not feel. They do not have senses. Yet, oh-what-miracle you believe yourself to be alive? ;)
energy does not have to be electrons.
Energy comes in many forms, for example matter, light, gravity, kinetic energy, temperature, radiation or sound.
You can transform all these energies without a problem (yet we're not really good at it yet)
The main point is, WHAT are thoughts? We do not know. It's really a thing science doesn't have an explanation for. We know a bit about what happens in our brain, but actual thoughts remain a mystery.
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Trashman you completely missed my point - BTW Lightspeed thanks, but my aim was to shed some light on a realistic possibility, not primarly support your theory or their existance.
Your arguement about energy not being alive or can't be is fundamentally flawed, because you compare inert, basic elements to a vastely complex and pretty much not understood structure that is living tissue or a living cell for that matter.
We never said that a photon or electron will evolve, mutate or have children.
We speak of bodies, organism made of electromagnetic parts. If you can create electromagnetic fields that have a metabolism - so they can sustain themselves, you already end up with a primitive lifeform.
Before you argue, that energy can't be contained or can't exist in this manner let me remidn you that light is nothing but an electro-magnetic wave where an electric field constantly induces a magnetic one that induces an electric and so on....
The key to such structure would be the interaction of fields that would create a cohesion - the human mind can't even cope with the geometry of an electron path - you expect it to find all the possibilities how you can arrange particlex by million numbers and state that it's not possible to create a self-sustaining one?
Professors don't like sci-fi and theories without a solid base for they have to teach applyable things not ramblings about what could be out there. If you ask them like that they will support your view of non-existing energy beings for the sake of simplicity.
Right now our understading of the universe makes such a being very improbable since energy in all the spectrum surrounds us, and an energy being would be like a human thriving in bullet rain from a million machine guns.
If the said lightform comes into greater interaction with the world he may develop a nervouse system and eventually gain sentience, I once again have to stress that for all we know these beings may not exist, or it could be that they can only live in empty deep space taking up space of entire star clusters, or the opposite is possible as well.
I'm afraid that even if your belief is good enough, your reasons are not.
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Originally posted by Lightspeed
Energy comes in many forms, for example matter
Originally posted by Ghostavo
By your definition of energy, we are all energy beings, and since you don't believe that (or else you would have mentioned it before) I suggest you revise its definition.
Now for a question, don't electromagnetic waves travel at the speed of light? How could they move at free will (or for any matter, how could they change where they are heading?)
My doubt is that how can energy control itself?
Matter can be organized to form cells, etc...
I can't see the same happening to energy.
I believe energy beings are possible only if linked to a physical body (matter), now if they aren't...
Flaser is right about the teacher thing... they don't like to answer to question that are too open to debate or too complicated.
But whatever you do, don't ask that question to a philosofy teacher, he will say everything is possible, blah, blah, blah... :D
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Energy won't form cells, actually a living energy being could be a lot simpler and primitive one than cellular being.
All you need are loops of electro-magnetic fields that can exist infinititly wihtout outsife intervention - if such structures are possible then you have a model of an energy being.
Of course there's always outside interference, so that will only be the state toward the structure strives - and this process will be the motor of the beings lifeforce, as the chemical tendency for lower power levels is the motor behind your life.
BTW it wouuld be a complex arrangement of magnetic and electrostatic fields that keep each other bound, they would have some kind of structure that could assimilate or capture the energy of particles so the being could "feed" - and of course it will also loose some of its energy just by sustaining itself.
Light - or electro-magnetic waves can't move of their free will - there is no such thing in case of a light wave.
This processes will happen of their own accord as your cellular metabolism works.
What I spoke of is a primitive like a mono-cell microba.
Of course the said stuctures could form a more complex being where the said units form a nervouse system and certain complexes will have the ability to emmit the said fields influencing the whole body.....of course that's over simplification.
All I say is that there is a more than impossible chance for an organism to form if the building blocks - spotanouse metabolism and self cohesion, and a dozen other things - are avilible.
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So..you all know more about that matter that professors that spent their whole life expanding their knowledge in the field of science.
What would you say if I told you I e-mailed Stephen Hawking and asked him if Energy beeings are possible?
What would you say if his response was that the probability of such a life form is beyond astronomical. And a intelligent energy lifeforem is even more unprobable?
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I'd say that if you're on speaking terms with Hawking than it's entirely possible to have a sentient being that exists entirely on happy thoughts.
Retard.
And you think that a quasi-religious appeal to some scientific shaman on something that everybody not an ignorant tit admits to knowing nothing solid about is conclusive in any way. In an argument about fictional alien races.
On second thought, "retard" is too kind.
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You're the tard here...:lol:
I honestly think That Stephen isn't as big a scientist as people think. Too much media exposure - they're trying to make a new Einstein out of him (which he isn't). I disagree with some of his ideas coause I simply think they're wrong (like when he said that all humanity should imbrace implants and stuff..yeah right... why don't I go replace my arm with a metal claw right away?).
And I'm not a beliver in science, if that's what you mean.
I'm a hardened Christian and a firm beliver in God's magnificence.
I allways base my decisions (well...most of the time anyway) on the grounds that they have to be logical, moral, and christianic(read: good)
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[color=cc9900]Congratulations, you just contradicted yourself. You don't trust Stephen, but you do on this one matter. Useful, eh?[/color]
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Originally posted by TrashMan
And I'm not a beliver in science, if that's what you mean.
I'm a hardened Christian and a firm beliver in God's magnificence.
So couldn't God create an energy being if he wanted to then?
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And in more ways than you think...
Originally posted by TrashMan
And I'm not a beliver in science, if that's what you mean.
I'm a hardened Christian and a firm beliver in God's magnificence.
God is dead? ;)
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Hmm... interesting ideas, but I thought I would point out that energy beings aren't mathematically sound and therefore do not make sense.
Take electricity, for example. Electrical pressure (voltage) applied across a wire obtaining electrical resistance (or impedence, "ohmage") causes electrical current (amperage). Electrical current is measured in coulombs per second and the amount of coulombs per second multiplied by the electrical pressure returns the amount of electrical energy used (aka watts, or joules per second). Energy is a measurement of the amount of work that is required to get something done and doesn't have properties of a living being.
Any indication that one is trying to say that energy can live is a mathematical flaw since energy is a measurement of work force. If it is mathematically flawed then you can pretty much know that the assumption is incorrect.
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Although I don't believe in "pure" energy beings, I must say that your arguments are... flawed like you say...
You are only thinking of electrical current (flux of electrons) and simple physical definitions of energy (having to do with moving objects, etc...).
Think of photons for example...
:thepimp:
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back to theories of shivans. you heard it before and though it was dumb but i'm going to post anyways. What if the shivans we see arn't the shivans. what if the ships are the shivans and the shivans we think are shivans are an immunesystem
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Originally posted by TrashMan
christianic(read: good)
Two words : Crusade (christian answer to the islamic jihad), Inquisition (or how to torture and kill people in ten esay lessons).
As you can guess by that, I'm something of an atheist :)
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Originally posted by Odyssey
[color=cc9900]Congratulations, you just contradicted yourself. You don't trust Stephen, but you do on this one matter. Useful, eh?[/color]
I said i disagree with SOME of his ideas.. Nobody is right all the time... You are really looking for needles in the haystack! Tsk, tsk, tsk...:lol:
KAJORAMA: Yes, he could, but why did he then create such laws that don't permit it? Of course, he could just change the whole reality and laws, and we would have never known...
GENRYU:What the early christians did, and what is the core of Christianity are two completely different things....
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What makes you think your interpretation of the 'core' of Christianity is any more correct that of - for example - Torquemada?
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Should I even bother to answer such a question?
No.. I won't dignify it with a response...
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[color=cc9900]Trashman, I'm not looking for needles in a haystack, unless the haystack is 99% needles. Sure, nobody is right all the time, which is exactly why you shouldn't base your whole argument around their words.
You really ought to dignify aldo with a response. He's got a ruddy good point. What have you got to lose by answering? A lot less than what you've got to lose by going off in a huff.[/color]
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Odyssey... didn't he just respond? LOL :D
Now I think I've just had a revelation about Capella! I beliebe that the shivans were actually lured in there by same strange readings that the GTVA was having...
If anyone here has played Starflight in the old genesis (or mega-drive), they will know more or less what I'm talking about.
Like some say, the shivans are a consequence of a bigger problem, now maybe "blasting" Capella was trying to solve part of that problem.
So now this is where I diverge into 2 theories, either Freespace 2 has more or less the same story that Starflight story and the star have some sort of "plague" and either the star are dying and the shivans trying to stop the plague from spreading.... or... more interesting... the shivans are trying to prevent something from happening!
P.S.
This is entirely fictional, has not a thing about pure logic and science, exactly like Starflight! :D
The thing about this theory (which is entirely made to explain what happened in Capella, nothing more) is that it doesn't match what the good ol' Admiral is saying in the end (which I still don't understand where he got that kind of information or if he is just making up theories along the way), and doesn't explain the wars...
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
Now I think I've just had a revelation about Capella! I beliebe that the shivans were actually lured in there by same strange readings that the GTVA was having...
[...]
So now this is where I diverge into 2 theories, [...] or... more interesting... the shivans are trying to prevent something from happening!
P.S.
This is entirely fictional, has not a thing about pure logic and science, exactly like Starflight! :D
The thing about this theory (which is entirely made to explain what happened in Capella, nothing more) is that it doesn't match what the good ol' Admiral is saying in the end (which I still don't understand where he got that kind of information or if he is just making up theories along the way), and doesn't explain the wars...
It could have all been so easier if you had read my first post in this thread :)
Let me quote:
With the universe at the brink of collapse, the shivans had to act immediately.
Back to our example. A large explosion at the barrier can have enough force to split both liquids, destroying part of it, but preventing the barrier to collapse completely.
The shivans launched their Sathanas capships for Capella.
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But... I said they were lured, you said the had already planned moving there.
You said something about a barrier, destroying both worlds unless it was done, etc... I didn't refer to these and said instead that they were trying to prevent something from happening, not specifying what it was on the 2nd theory... but I meant that the star was going to do something or cause something, that was why I said the shivans were lured. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.
Although some diferences you made me see that both theories are not that diferent, and instead very alike... have you ever played Starflight? ;)
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Hmmmm I do like the theory that the shivans weren't responsible for Capella and in fact were trying to prevent something from happening (would also explain why not all the Saths managed to leap out in time to avoid distruction!) :D
The question is, did Bosch know what was going to happen?
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I don't know about you, but to me the meaning of beeing a Christian is very simple:
Do good to others, regardless of their belief, race or anything else
This was so straight forward that I don't even know why you asked that question? Why don't you just read the New Testemony in the Bible?
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I think I'm going to piss you off, TrashMan, but first, I'd like to say that this isn't about you, it's about christianism in general.
That being said, I'm sure that people who call themselves christian would also be looking into the Old Testament, also in the Bible, which clearly state "an eye for an eye".
Welle, it isn't about christianism but more with religion in general and the hypocrisy which the people in charge generally show.
That being said, and to try to steer this topic into the original direction, I'm also of the opinion that the Shivans weren't really trying to wipe out the GTVA at Capella. If they really wanted that, the number of Sathanas present would have been more than enough to wipe out all the military facing them.
One of my pet theory is that the Shivan know that the race facing them know that the best way to counter them is to collapse the nodes that let them arrive. And this way, they could be protecting the other race from the true destroyer, who could be coming from subspace (or freespace, as it is also known and could explain the title), or simply be battling the Shivans in the same system the GTVA found the Shivans.
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Interesting theory...
Alltough I don't belive Shivans are proteting the GTVA, for they could have just said - watch out. Instead they are communicating via plasma burns.
GENRYU: - I prefer the new testemony. You must allso note, that the Bibl was written by humans, after beeing passed on from generation to generation verbaly. And like a story tends to change the more people it passes (like fisher's tale - it was THIS big!..), so are elements in the Bilbe present (and in every book of old religions) that have been changed.
The new testemony was written allmost imidiately after the said events took place, so it's far more acurate. That's why, alltough I like the Odl testament, I don't take it too seriously...
The current Pope is the best one ever. If you can find something wrong with him, then boy - you need therapy pronto!
And if you are refering to some embers of the church clergy that are rotten/bad - that happens everywhere and neither the church is imunne. Alltough speeking in percentages, it happens less often.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
The current Pope is the best one ever. If you can find something wrong with him, then boy - you need therapy pronto
How about the fact that he got Pope Pius XII sainted despite the fact that he did next to nothing to help the jews during the holocaust? Even though allied leaders repeatedly asked him to do speak out and tell the german catholics what was going on?
How about the fact that the catholic church has helped the spread of AIDS (http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html) in Africa by warning people not to use condoms because they are permeable to HIV even though the WHO has repeatedly told them that this is not true?
How about the fact that the Vatican has been instrumental in getting a law passed in El Salvador that bans abortions
even to save the life of the mother? (http://www.iht.com/articles/119188.html)
The current pope is a complete bastard willing to let millions of people die a horrible painful death rather than have them use condoms. He'll even go so far as to spread lies about the science involved. And this is supposed to be God's infallible representative on Earth?
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I feel I would be remiss in my duties as a lurker if I did not include a link to the most elaborate and convoluted Shivan theory of all time (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,18138.0.html). It's currently under semi-renovation, seeing some editing now and then in preparation for its final re-release, so if things seem disjointed or otherwise weird in some places, that's why.
I won't be viewing any replies in this thread--'cause, damn, man, it's just too long--but I wanted y'all to have as many resources as possible for your fightin'.
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I've been reading you theory carefully for the last... 2 hours!!! :eek2: :shaking: :confused:
There are some points who seem to diverge... instead of one theory you have a lots of them! :D
You say the shivans are, some kind of anti-bodies, energy beings, physical beings (because of the need of a planet, "Cocytus", among other things)...
Then there are some points where I am confused by the data you provide, I will give some examples...
The "immune system" depiction is not without flaw. Such a theory would suggest that the Shivans are spawned from subspace in overwhelming numbers, in the same manner as immune cells are within the body. While there can be no argument that the Shivans are numerous, their legions cannot be infinite; this would stack the odds in such a way as to automatically doom both Terrans and Vasudans to extinction. So colossally unfair an advantage would be against the trend of balance in nature--not to mention the programmers at Volition, who would probably want to make a gamer feel somewhat less-worthless than this.
The immune cells within a body are not infinite, or else AIDS and other deseases would never be such a problem now would they?
this theory is strengthened, albeit not much, by the fact that Capella turns green in hue. Yellow star + blue subspace node = green :D
In both my FS the subspace nodes are green, is this a bug? :p
Comm Node = Life Support
:wtf: If that is true wouldn't we have seen such evidences of them in the great war? Wouldn't it be better to protect such a valuable thing? Snd then you say something which confuses me even more like...
Secondly, for reasons unknown, the Shivans do not seem capable of sending messages from normal space into subspace.
So... that would mean that they would need to have what? At least one in every sector? And how to get in that sector in the first place?
And so on and on and on...
It seems LightSpeed and you have a very very similar if not identical theory on the shivans... :D
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Originally posted by karajorma
The current pope is a complete bastard willing to let millions of people die a horrible painful death rather than have them use condoms. He'll even go so far as to spread lies about the science involved. And this is supposed to be God's infallible representative on Earth?
* removes kajorama from his Christmas list, contacts and everything else*
I DON'T KNOW THIS GUY!
EDIT: And you belive all that ****? And how can anone stop you fom using condoms?
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Read the links (unless you're scared of going to hell from just associating with anything I say :D ). If you help pass a law making all condoms carry a warning stating that condoms don't prevent the transmision of AIDS who's going to use them?
The only way you'll convince people in Africa to start using condoms is educate people so they know that it could save their lives. The Vatican has not only been unwilling to help in that but has actually prevented it happening by spreading outright lies about their effectiveness.
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Ok....
Karajorma and Trash Man: Condoms are uneffective in 2%....But this comes from 2% condoms being mechanically damaged (by "provider" or user)
Still they are most effective (not prermanent) way to stop "ahem" :) "being father" or getting AIDS/HIV.....
Catholic church forbids using condoms, beacuse You don't need them when You're controlling yourself.....
This is however at least difficult in life of HUMAN and that's why peoplel should be aware of pros of condom!
"How about the fact that he got Pope Pius XII sainted despite the fact that he did next to nothing to help the jews during the holocaust? Even though allied leaders repeatedly asked him to do speak out and tell the german catholics what was going on?"
True!!
But:
That does't mean You should use such "hard" words against him...
Consider this:
Pope is the leader of catholics (religion), yet his function is so important that You should consider him as a politician...
He has big impact on most things (downing of Soviet Union)
Just to have clear situation: I'm an agnostic (leads sonner or later to atheism), any kind of religion is nothing more than "peacegiver" to people that fear smg (ie. death), for everyone fears smg...
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....although I wouldn't go as far as to contribute the Soviet Union's fall to him - Gorbachov is a more likely candidate.
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Originally posted by pasti
Karajorma and Trash Man: Condoms are uneffective in 2%....But this comes from 2% condoms being mechanically damaged (by "provider" or user)
I know that. But the Vatican was claiming that the virus was able to pass through the condom as if it wasn't there. In other words it was claiming that condoms were only effective as birth control. That's a blatent lie.
Originally posted by pasti
But:
That does't mean You should use such "hard" words against him...
Consider this:
Pope is the leader of catholics (religion), yet his function is so important that You should consider him as a politician...
That's basically why I called him that. If I'd called Blair or Bush or any other government leader a bastard for doing something similar no one would have cared. As far as I'm concerned when he does something as despicable as what he did in Africa he doesn't deserve to be treated with any less contempt than any other politician.
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Originally posted by Ghostavo
It seems LightSpeed and you have a very very similar if not identical theory on the shivans... :D
Nah, defianately not.
Especially check the things about:
- Bosch
- The subspace physics are slightly different
- Subspace fights back
- "Whatever those things were, the Shivans have got less of them now." - completely different
- Apocalypse - completely different (and there is no black thing around the star - you can perfectly see the stars)
- Why would the Shivans worry about a Colossus fleet? Wouldn't they already know about Allied fleet strength from experience during the Great War? - completely different
- You're full of it, buddy. The Shivans would never back down from a fight. - completely different
- I'm still a little fuzzy on the whole "Comm Node = Life Support" thing. Can you clarify? - completely different
- Planet Hell - completely different
- If the Shivans can travel to any point in subspace--and, by the same token, any point in normal space--then why don't they just jump their whole fleet into the heart of the GTVA? - completely different
you see, theres a lot of differences.
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How about the fact that the catholic church has helped the spread of AIDS in Africa by warning people not to use condoms because they are permeable to HIV even though the WHO has repeatedly told them that this is not true?
That's only a half-truth. Many 'recreational' condoms are indeed permeable to HIV, although such things are rarely labelled as such.
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Yeah but they made them put the warning on all condoms not just the recreational ones. Besides I'd imagine that the recreational kind are much harder to find in Africa.
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*Whistles and removes more people from his Christmas list*
EDIT: The Pope, like all church leaders before, is allso a human, and thus makes mistakes.
Unlike others, he at least tries to do good and undo his mistakes.
(didn't he apologize for the cruel thing the church did in the past...I don't recall others doing so)
He's the best Pope so far, a truly unique man (I know some people who know him), and the world is a better place with someone like him.
As for the AIDS thing, if you are carefull, you can't get it - condom or no condom - so that's a mute point.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
As for the AIDS thing, if you are carefull, you can't get it - condom or no condom - so that's a mute point.
[color=cc9900]Well, aside from a condom or some other contraception methods, the alternative is no sex. Considering that all these people are told by Christianity is that the sole purpose of condoms is to prevent conception, it's not surprising that they go at it without one and spread STI's all over the shop. It might be a mute point for someone like yourself brought up in a decent school with proper knowledge about the world (but sometimes I wonder), but if your life is based on what this one idiot says and you don't have any way of knowing he's wrong, where do you go?
Oh dear, there I go from your Christmas list. Such a shame.[/color]
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The pope is a poor, old, ill person forced to occupy a job he doesnt want anymore.
I won't comment on the actual discussion as a) this doesn't fit here and b) i'd be removed from more than a christmas list :p
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Unless someone here has a theory about this being a shivan conspiracy, replacing the pope with a shivan and then to help spreading HIV through false information and propaganda and by doing that, forcing human beings into extiction!!! :D :D
I've been watching too many sci-fi movies I guess. :rolleyes:
(Damn.... I won't be receiving a Christmas present the next year!! :p )
*wanders around thinking about what he just said*
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Damn it, my plans were discovered :shaking: