Off-Topic Discussion > Arts & Talents

Unborn Legacy - FS campaign idea dump [WARNING - heavy polgrish!]

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0rph3u5:

--- Quote from: Nyctaeus on August 10, 2019, 09:06:43 pm ---Anyway I imagined all verses of the multiverse as having the same laws of physics as our universe [Shivanverse/Unbornverse included] but different dark matter/antimatter/normal matter ratio.

--- End quote ---

Than I question why bother with another universe if the multiverse is homogenous - in this case. Normally the consistency of universes across a multiverse is to highlight the difference in comparision (e.g. through a "meet your doppelgängers"-scenario or an alternate timeline), which is not something you actually did originally.

To witch the second universe to a something akin to a "Dark Matter galaxy" would have served the same purpose; an outer layer of dark matter would have prevented observation, so you could easily have stuck any fantastical cosmic phenomena in there you like; as long as the cosmic impact is a net zero in gravity and radiation you're good.

But then you mentioned this:


--- Quote ---Shivanverse may be far beyond the point of expanding and it already started it's collapsing again to primordial singularity
--- End quote ---

Now this makes it a bit more interesting - the universes are of a different age. This might actually make it interesting because you immediatly land on scenario where potentionally cannot "turn back the clock" on the arrival of the extra-universal beings. There is some real thematic charge with regards to terms of coexistence, ressource limits vs technological surrogation etc etc...  :yes:


--- Quote ---Another explanation for dark matter and overally exotic matter from another universe is their mystery. While we can't see dark matter, we see it's influence. I wanted to introduce various exotic physical phenomenon like gravity or subspace anomalies to put emphasis on how dark and unknown Shivans really are and their native universe alike. Unknown physical phenomenon are excellent lorebuilding tool. Artistic reasons counts too.
--- End quote ---

If you want unknown phenomena caused the inter-universe contact it really opens the question why the two universe must have the same cosmology - to stick with Entropic Gravity, it explains the same phenomena as Dark Matter but without having to introduce introduce non-baryonic particiles into the cosmology; yet if you were to transfer from a Dark Matter into an Entropic Gravity universe there would be immideate consequences as by implication the laws governing gravity would be different.

Just imagine a terran ship crossing the dimensional membrane and then its means to greate artifical gravity immediatly failing because the laws of nature governing the device no longer apply. Which then by extension could also serve a reason not make the player cross over in the over universe.

As for the artistic reason, I get the whole dark = obscurity = mystery angle ... it just a bit plain IMO.


--- Quote --- Entropic Gravity is just a theory
--- End quote ---

So is Dark Matter - last I know, definitive proof for the existence of Dark Matter is still out.

Now Dark Matter is theory that has the support by the scientic consensus, for a complicated array of reasons some of them good (e.g. no competing theory has produced evidence either), some them hard to understand (because complicated math), and some of them downright dogmatic (which way to include gravity in the GUT).

Nyctaeus:
I see where you are heading and I can oversimplify it all in the question: Why both universes have to share the same laws of physics?

The answer is even simpler: They don't :P

Dark matter and uniformity of cosmology in the multiverse are current mainstream theories, so they were my default pick when I started to form cosmology standing behind Unborn Legacy... But I also like more exotic theories. As I said before, Entropic Gravity-verse would be excellent alternative. This part of the lore was never fully formed, and I guess I would updetail or completely rework this part if I ever decide to develop UL. I still like the idea of dark matter-verse, but Entropic Gravity-verse is also good... If not better idea if explored correctly and consistently.

I like strange, exotic, obscure, unknown... :]

Collapsing is another, and completely different thing. It does not exclude the reason why Unborn decided to pierce through multiverse membrane, but it may be actually another reason. Shivan-created Rift is another possibility. The Destroyer is ancient and presumbly eternal entity that is certainly aware that it's universe is slowly dying, so he created the Rift to re-settle himself and shivans to our universe. Unborn followed and significantly complicated the process delaying it or completely stopping it's progress. The Dark Gate constructed by Ancients using Unborn tech is one of examples of titular Legacy, as Ancients contributed to Unborn's efforts to stop or delay Shivans advance.

I know that both Shivans and Unborn are extremely old and advanced. Perhaps III or IV on Kardashev Scale. A single warship hulk recovered by Ancients and later by GTI was considered a relic of some ancient war, but in fact it was a part of eternal war. Maybe even Unborn left the hulk purposely to influence native, younger races and encourage them to commence their own efforts against forthcoming Shivan threat. Unborn certainly does not give a **** about native life in our universe, but they won't hestitate to utilize it if possible.

Ideas, ideas, ideas...

0rph3u5:

--- Quote from: Nyctaeus on August 11, 2019, 12:50:16 pm ---I see where you are heading and I can oversimplify it all in the question: Why both universes have to share the same laws of physics?

The answer is even simpler: They don't :P

--- End quote ---

While I appricate that appearently I scored a point for Scepticsm; you are stopping short because I contiue to fail to make the implied allegory explicit.

If you have two universes, the distinction between them should have a point - a thematic grounding - as much as having theoretical footing - because Science Fiction.* That's why I got reasonably excited by the implication of the second universe being an aged universe - an incurrsion from such a universe would be a good allegory for a lot of things that are would constitute an irrecovable change (as there would come a point when you no longer can "send them back").

If you have to universes that share a cosmology - therefor are only different by degree and not kind - there is no reason to not treat them as interchangeable places. Which has some applications, as said in the kind "this small thing makes all the difference"-kind of story which is a foundation for normative storytelling.

As originally proposed, in the story the speration of the universes only serves to do two things:

1) To disconnect the histories of the Unborn/Shivans from the Terran/Vasudans; having them have no interaction, not even an accidental one, prior to when it is required. However that can be achieved in multiple different ways, e.g. distance, time dilation, or the interferrence of a third party, that do not require you to make a whole new universe.

2) To impose limits on guiding being behind the Shivans, which is okay** - but I am not convinced that this is the only way to do it; but then again I might be a bit to fond of deicide has an allegory for the attempt to emancipate the individual (successful or not).


* To examplify the point let me introduce you to a central point of Pendragon-lore: Model 2-technology.

Spoiler:Model 2-technology is why there are Humans outside of the Milky Way, both in terms of how they got there and why they got there.

Model 2-technology is basically the catalyst every "super-science tech" I want people to have, but it is also based in alien perception of reality that cannot 100% be translated into terms that are within the human standard capability to precieve and abstract (but doesn't contradict it either; its like there is a secret menu to reality); Model 2-integrated AIs asked to explain the science to humans will stop making sense during the explaination and can be confused by humans lack of understanding.

However due to their utility, and the fact that you can have an AI learn to integrate into human made technology, Model 2-components is highly sought after - and since it cannot be manufactured by humans (wouldn't know how to) it needs to be extracted from machines that do. Hence one reason why humans "hunt" Mechanosphere objects and why humanity entered in technologcial stagnation after the Commonwealth was destroyed (the most efficent way to get Model 2-componets requires coordination beyond the limits of the Empire, Arbiters, Freeholds, the Harbor Captains and the Revolutionary State combined).

The whole thing collapses into an allegory on limits of human understanding and the question if these limits are absolute; also as to how easily one can misunderstand the shape of the world if one relies on the familiar.

** Maybe a bit too much this ;)

Nyctaeus:
There are couple of reasons why I decided to introduce Shivanverse.

I can't just simply put two incredibly powerful and ancient races in our universe because such a war results in extreme environmental changes. Purgatorium itself is full of subspace anomalies, dark matter "clouds" and other strange phenomenon. Where two universes meet, space go crazy. Ancients themselves had obvious and large effect on terran and vasudan races in main FS timeline, and putting more advanced, ancient civilisations in even more distant times would make things even more complicated. Mass Effect displayed civilisations in the Milky Way as growing on ruins of possible Type III civilization, and this fact affected every race in the galaxy. Yay, space is huge but if you have galaxy-spanning civilization, something surely remain after them. If I simply put Unborn-Shivan war in some distant sector of space, T and V may never find any trace about their existence.

I don't buy Mass Effect at all to be honest. The Leviathans and their backstory are terrible explanation for horror things the Reapers are, because there is nothing exotic, obscure and abstract about this explanation and Leviathans themselves. The Reapers are just waiting outside the galaxy for life to flourish again, like BW needed the most fake and unbelievable explanation to hide the dark, evil guys from the player. I don't do this. The bad guys are scattered around the galaxy unable to reconnect, but majority of them awaits in collapsing, nightmarish realm plotting their comeback.

UL is alternate timeline story - a FS story affected by interference of unknown, and not necessairly evil superpower - the Unborn. From UL perspective, main FS timeline is just the same story without Unborn interference. But in this case, they just decided to do their part. Following other example - The Man from a High Castle when Allies just lost the World War II, I don't want to change any other aspects of past of FS universe aside from everything that remained after Unborn. If I just set whole war in our galaxy and close to T, V and A, possible implications are huge and too big to be neglected.

The other thing is the mystery and exoticism factor. Different universe if detailed properly, deepens the unknown vibe that Shivans should have. Not only because it has different rules of physics etc. but also for the very fact of being different universe. Also strange environment allows me to create stranger and more interesting backstory for them [that I only started a little :P] even if I don't want to fully reveal it to avoid technobabble and keep things deliberately untold. Following official narrative of V, I want to hint majority of thos thigs and leave player with a base for further, internal brainstorm. This rule applies also to the Unborn. If Ancients were capable of fully understand Unborn technology, they would be unquestionable rulers of the Milky Way by now, but they presumbly lost the Unborn hulk during the chaos of Ancient-Shivan War and they were on the edge of extinction so majority of their even limited research was lost. The Dark Gate, spinal beam cannon of Minos-class superdestroyer and bio-crystalline, regenerative armor of their ships are everything they inherited.

I imagined Unborn as deeply mental and psionic race, interfering with their technology via pure willpower. They never used any written or spoken language, because their memories are not stored in their "brains", but in decentralized information "cloud" based on perception of reading basic quantum information field. Think this with more quantum woo. So Ancients reverse-engineered the simplest things with very limited time and completely no understanding. GTI and HoL have more time, but even worse cognition but much more voracious ambitions. This is the same rule as Pendragon example you mentioned - I don't want Shivans and Unborn to be understandable for Terrans, Vasudans and Ancients.

So historic implications, requirement of limits for the Destroyer and exoticism factor remain valid in my decision to introduce the Shivanverse, but there is also another reason. The simplest and most obvious.

Different universes are awesome :P. No matter how deep and complex lore we want to create, certain things just remain awesome for general reception. Whole BP was founded on simplest and the most overused plot in sci-fi and fantasy - the destiny and choosen ones, than added tremendously detailed lore around it. And it works well.

0rph3u5:

--- Quote from: Nyctaeus on August 12, 2019, 08:40:51 am ---I can't just simply put two incredibly powerful and ancient races in our universe because such a war results in extreme environmental changes. [...] and putting more advanced, ancient civilisations in even more distant times would make things even more complicated.

--- End quote ---

I take it that you have never watched Babylon 5 then?

Spoiler:In Babylon 5 there are a number of so-called First Ones - ranging from single individuals/ship to whole species worth. All the First Ones are advanced beyond the point that their tech is inscrutable and their motives can't really be discerned - with the exception of the Shadows and the Vorlons. Furthermore, these First Ones are depicted as being so advanced in terms of technology and interst that they just don't interact with the Younger Races anymore, unless they want to (and in one instance if they don't care).

The Shadows and the Vorlons interact with Younger Races in the galaxy, but only as so far as employ them as pawns in what ammounts to a comsic war of ideology on how to best nurture the advancement of the Younger Races. However during the events of the show both sides abbandon their restraint and threaten to destroy the Younger Races as a result - but not each other despite the ability to do so.

--- Quote --- Yay, space is huge but if you have galaxy-spanning civilization, something surely remain after them
--- End quote ---

The question is not the existence of any remains but if these still hold anything that yields information (There is a reason Histiography traditionally gives much more significance to Tradition than Remains); e.g. as the chase with the hieroglyphic script of Ancient Egypt before the Rosetta Stone was found. It was accepted that the hieroglyphs were language but because there had been no continious tradition of their meaning nothing could be said about what they actually meant, until  with Rosetta Stone a fairly mundane text which was repeated in Ancient Greek (which had a continous tradtion) and Demotic Egyptian (which is precurrsor to Coptic) - from that translation could be worked out.

FS1's depiction of being able to translate the Ancients' language at all is highly unrealistic to the extend of being intellecutally offensive - with the FS Ref Bible's loophole of ancient Ancient-Vasudan contact making it only minimally better. But then again you can let it slide because it works well with "Destruction of the Old brings forth a better New"-angle of the Epilogue cutscene, which also aligns Shiva as being a revealing deity in the tradition of Shaivism*.

*In Shaivism, Shivan is the supreme deity and imbuded with all 5 powers that make up the divine (creation, preseration, destruction, revaliation, obscuration). Note: I am not a Hindu, I just talked to one once :D I just may have been saying non-sense.


--- Quote ---*all the ME stuff*
--- End quote ---

TBH I never cared much for the Reaper-lore because I found it beside the point - its all noise with little to nothing to add in terms of the subtext. (*grumbles on for a bit about who's fault it is that game fiction tends to be unambigious and overexplained to deteremental degree*)

The important part about the Reapers, to me, was their thematically grounding in Mass Effects organic-synthetic dichtiomy - being the extreme of synthetic end of the scale. Additionaly, their defeat is less about the actualy in-universe objective but about the generational change that is represented with the Council Races & Company asserting their right to self-determination over what is essentially the just previous generation of occupants of the galaxy.

Needless to say that for that reason alone, I found Geths' and Legion's story to be the most compelling arc across the series (and still wonder what makes the people tick who say that about Krogans) .... okay maybe not quite because Tali  :lol:

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