Hello everyone !
I love talking Wing...as you probably can tell from my few posts here so far...and am glad to hear the various perspectives from people here...some new fans...some older fans familiar with the Wing Universe...and of course the input of the Tech Guys who have so kindly brought the SAGA experience to us all.
This thread is going to focus on the sizes of ships in Wing...mostly on the Capital Ships, because the Fighter-lengths are all well-documented and reasonably sensible when compared with each other fighter in the game, both Kilrathi and Terran. Don't worry...the initial post here isn't going to be that long...I just want to lay some things out there that I've often thought about and wondered what the opinion of most other Wing fans was on them.
So...to begin:
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Terran Heavy Carrier - Kennedy, etc.... - how did you guys (SAGA team) arrive at a length for this ship ? I'm trying to remember if they ever published it in Wing-III manuals ? I don't think they did....they MIGHT have done so in Wing-IV when writing up the Lexington's Manual-Entry...but I can't recall.... was it something like 800+ meters ?
In any event...how reasonable is it that the Ranger-Light Carrier is 720 Meters...but the Terran's heaviest and most powerful new fleet carriers are only 100 meters or so larger ?
Also...in terms of fighter-capacity, how does it make sense that 48 Fighters (appx 4-squadrons - Terran Squadrons are the same as ones today in the USA, etc. - 12-Fighters each, Kilrathi Squadrons are 8 ...because the Kilrathi are infatuated with the number 8 ...they have 8 digits (fingers-thumb) supposedly...and count things in terms of eights...the Fleet Action novel recounts Thrakkath drooling over the new Hakaga-Super Carriers by saying, "...they were bristling with heavy weaponry. Four-eights of Neutron Guns, Four-eights of Mass Driver point-defense cannons, Four-eights of Laser Turrets" - etc.
Essentially he was saying that 4 x 8 = 32 Neutron Guns, 32 Mass-Drivers, 32 Laser Turrets was the weapon loadout for the Hakaga's (which were really more like battleships than mere carriers).
....(continued from above)....can be carried on a 720-m Ranger....but a slightly-larger Heavy Carrier can jump up to over 100+ fighters carried ??-------------------
Kilrathi Corvettes (Kamekh) - Does the SAGA team have Kilrathi Corvettes in the game so far (I mean is it being planned ?) - if not...what is the reason ? The Kamekh's seemed like excellent light-escorts for convoys where a Destroyer-sized ship could not be spared ?
They also boasted an impressive load of missiles and Torpedoes in both the Wing-II manual write-up of them....and even MORESO in the (presumably a newer-model of Kamekh) Privateer Games. The Kamekh's there were CRAZY. Just check out their Gun, Missile, Torpedo load-out listed in the Privateer manual. It's staggering....much more variety and number of guns than seen in most other Cap-Ships in later games (Wing III, Wing IV, etc.)
So what happened to those powerful Kamekh's, and what would be the reason NOT to include them in the main-campaign , assuming that decision has been made (or not ?) ?
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Terran Destroyers - (Wing III) - I think these ships have only 1-AMG turret mounted on the front "chin" of the ship... how does that allow them to be effective in cap-ship / vs. cap-ship combat ? Granted they have torpedo tubes (IIRC)...but beyond that...they lack any real anti-cap-ship defense / offense ? Correct ?
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TCS-Vesuvius -
This one has always fascinated and confused me .... anyone who played Wing-IV remembers the plot by Admiral Tolwyn to annihilate undesirables and forge a new genetic race of super-fighters for the Terran Confederation to fight off the threat he believed was coming (from the Alien Race seen in Prophecy, most people think).
Tolwyn's Flagship and a central piece of several missions - is the newly launched Terran Super-Carrier -
TCS Vesuvius.
Now...this ship has a ton of AMG's, Tachyon Guns (just watch in-game missions where you attack the ship, the bolts it fires at you are almost exclusively NOT Laser Turrets - so it suggests they outfitted it with almost all Tachyon's and AMG's - or at least a huge number of them - for maximum anti-fighter / anti-cap-ship combat potential)... missile tubes, etc.
However...if you view it "in mission" (when you are flying) , sure it's big...but it's not "OH MY GOD THAT'S RIDICULOUS !!!" - big.
BUT....there are several critically important Cut-Scenes / Movie-Scenes - where you can see the BWS-Light Carrier -
Intrepid ... being pursued by the
Vesuvius.
In those scenes...the
Vesuvius appears to be ENORMOUS. Like perhaps 10,000 meters long....given the Durango-class
Intrepid is about 400-450 meters long (IIRC)...and the scenes I am talking about...you can see the two front "prongs" coming off the front hanger-bay of the
Vesuvius...and the PRONGS ALONE are larger / longer than the Intrepid itself.
If you scaled that out over the entire length of the ship...you are looking at a Super-Carrier of 5000-10,000 meters in total length. This would actually make some sense given the carrier is supposed to carry a Flight Wing of
over 400-Fighters / Bombers - !!!
If you used "Simple Math" - and accepted that a 720-m Carrier (Ranger-class) could carry 48 (Four-Squadrons) Fighters...the idea that a 5000, or 7000 meter long super carrier couldn't carry nearly 10-times that isn't all that hard to believe.
HOWEVER...here's my problem... when you get to the Wing-Prophecy game...they decided to one-up the old Vesuvius and create a MEGA-carrier...
- the
MidwayMega sounds "better" than even Super...so naturally they wanted the
Midway to be pretty much "da bomb" in regards to size, strength, etc. etc.
I think they listed it at 2500-meters long (or something like that) in the Manual...and wrote in that it was "the largest carrier ever produced by Confed".
Well this wouldn't make much sense, given the size that the
Vesuvius is shown to have in all the cut-scenes it appears in.... but here's the catch....I think they realized this....so in the Prophecy Manual, you find the Super-Carrier listed as ...(IIRC) ... 1600 meters long.
Ummm....this is exceptionally UNDER-whelming compared to Kilrathi "Standard Carriers" like the Bhaktara being 920-Meters long...and considering that the previously-mentioned
Intrepid was listed as 400+ Meters long....and they are saying in the Prophecy Manual that it is almost 25% the size of
Vesuvius ???
Ummm, that makes no sense.
In NONE of the video's they show of
Vesuvius and
Intrepid interacting are you EVER given the impression that the Newest Terran Super-Carrier is ONLY 4-times the length of the
Intrepid.
Is it possible that the
Vesuvius and
St. Helens , being the first ships of the class produced...were much larger versions ....and that the newer Super-Carriers produced are "only" 1600-meters long ?
What size for the Super-Carriers is SAGA leaning towards displaying and what is the basis for that decision ?
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Kilrathi Dreadnought - (Prince Thrakkath's Flagship - the
Hvar'Kann)
Well, I saved the best (most controversial) for last ! I love the sheer crazy assymetricality of all the Kilrathi ships in Wing-III, but the best (most crazy) is the massive Dreadnought flagships they use.
Now...throughout Wing-III you get to see a ton of cut-scenes with Thrakkath onboard his super-ship, talking to Melek, plotting, scheming, etc. etc.
In MOST of these scenes, you see fighters, etc. flitting about outside the command-ship...and yeah, it looks big.
HOWEVER...in a few critically useful scenes...you get to see CAPITAL SHIPS flying alongside this behemoth... and that's when it TRULY becomes mind-boggling in terms of its size.
The LISTED-size for the Kilrathi Dreadnought in the Wing-III manual is a staggering 22,000 !!! meters long ...
Yes...true. Not 2200....but
22,000 !!!Now, I don't know if SAGA-team members actually plan on using that size for in-game...but I would hope that they would. I've heard of some debates on this suggest it was a typo...that the
KIS Hvar'Kann and other ships of the class were REALLY only 2200-meters...which, while very big, would put them in-line with the other ships in the Wing-III manual...not so far out of comparison (at 22,000) that it would be mind-blowing for any Sci-Fi to stack up against (that length)...
But as I noted above...there are a few scenes where it seems 100% the game-designers intention that the Dreadnought REALLY IS 22,000 meters long.
The BEST scene I can point to is the very intro movie for Wing-III. It's the part where we see Angel and the Captured Terran Spy-Team in the Grand Hall of Kilrah, where Thrakkath executes them all.
Before we see the "on Kilrah" scenes....we see a Jump-Point burst open and the monstrous Dreadnought comes sailing out...surrounded by its escorting Capital ships....(like it needs any help, hehe).
As the ship sails from left to right across the screen and we start to see Kilrah come into view....if you watch alongside the right-side of the Dreadnought....you can see a ship flying in the 'shadow' of the Dreadnought....at first glance (and 2nd and 3rd) I never realized it for what it was. I thought it was a Vaktoth or something.....maybe a Transport (100=some meters long)....but I was wrong.
Anyone who has Wing-III can verify this...if you play just that opening scene again....and watch really closely...you will see that the tiny ship flying alongside the Dreadnought is none other than a Kilrathi Light-Destroyer of 450-meters !!!
Yes....a 450-meters long Destroyer is MINISCULE next to the massive Dreadnought. Going off that scaling, you can easily accept the 22,000 meter-long listed size for the ship.
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One additional thing on the ship.... clearly it is not a UNIQUE ship either...the Kilrathi have at least 3-4. I can say this because in the final cut-scenes you see of the Kilrathi Grand-Fleet assembling....Thrakkath is drooling again and telling the Emperor "a vast armada has been assembled....NEVER before has there been such a mighty fleet !" (appx). And you see some outside views of the fleet - and you see TONS of capital ships moving around....more importantly you can see 2-3 other Dreadnoughts in the background ! (meaning that they have at least that many in service)
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Lastly...on weaponry for this ship....I know the Wing Manual lists it as having (only) 38-Laser Turrets - I think ???
But let's be realistic.... if a ship is REALLY that monstrous...there is no way in heck that it is not bristling with well over 100-turrets...of various varieties (Tachyons, many Heavy-AMGs to blow Cap-ships to dust, etc.).
Remember that in Star Wars a standard 1600-meter long Star Destroyer has 60 Turbolaser Batteries and 60 Ion-Cannons.
To say the largest ship ever seen in Wing Commander has barely half the weaponry of a ship many many many times smaller than it (even if its in another Sci-Fi) would be a joke. Heck, even if you took an actual Wing ship like Midway from Prophecy...it would have nearly as many gun mounts / missile launchers - etc. as the Wing-III Manual suggested the Dreadnought has.
I would hope that if the Dreadnought makes it into some SAGA missions (and I hope it does !!!) - that it would not only be represented to scale (22,000 meters !!! - what a sight that would be - lol) ...but also given weaponry in terms of sheer numbers of turrets, as well as actual firepower (don't have it with puny 3% damage Laser Turrets...lol) .....that match its staggering size and place in the history-books for Wing Commander Capships.
Well, that's it for now...plenty of great stuff to discuss so have at it forum-friends !