Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Slasher on July 01, 2011, 12:31:25 pm
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In FS canon, do jump nodes revolve around their system's star(s) like planets? Or do they remain static relative to other bodies and stellar phenomena in system?
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I don't think canon has any info on this.
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They can't be fully static; they'd drift out of the system fairly quickly.
And canon does have info on this; we visit the node from Capella to Gamma Drac at least twice. Compare the backgrounds and tell me if planetary/solar locations change.
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We've theorized in the past that nodes are products of Langrangian points between the large gravitational influences in a system, the star and one of the outer giants for instance. So yes, if we say that this is the case, they would revolve around the parent star, but pretty slowly.
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I guess that BP got it wrong then, as in the FS1 ending cutscene you can clearly see the Earth in close proximity to the node, while in BP:AoA they're nowhere near the Earth when they arrive in the system for the first time (or at the end either). Also, I don't think that WiH supports a near-Earth jumpnode, as it would effectively put the planet itself within the GTVA holdings.
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I guess that BP got it wrong then, as in the FS1 ending cutscene you can clearly see the Earth in close proximity to the node, while in BP:AoA they're nowhere near the Earth when they arrive in the system for the first time (or at the end either). Also, I don't think that WiH supports a near-Earth jumpnode, as it would effectively put the planet itself within the GTVA holdings.
easily hand waved.
Firstly there is what 50? years between FS1 closing cutscene and BP:AoA, The solar system will change very noticeably in that time, also there are a number of gas giants in the system would effect things using the gravity theory perhaps moving the node away from Earth orbit.
Secondly the Lucifer was undergoing a subspace altering explosion at the time which might throw the maths out significantly
Thirdly how does the jumpgate factor in, does it have any effect on the jump corridor.
Fourthly going back to point 1 what is the Earth's orbital position at the end of FS1 compared to AoA
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Umm, I'm gonna give the first FS1 a pass on accuracy and say it was artistic license. Besides, maybe it was an unstable node that humans knew about but could traverse.
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I guess that BP got it wrong then, as in the FS1 ending cutscene you can clearly see the Earth in close proximity to the node, while in BP:AoA they're nowhere near the Earth when they arrive in the system for the first time (or at the end either). Also, I don't think that WiH supports a near-Earth jumpnode, as it would effectively put the planet itself within the GTVA holdings.
Where did this come from? Almost everyone in here is suggesting in one form or another that the node could have easily moved between the two time periods...
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Or that that a new node was created entirely. :)
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Yeah, nothing says that reactivating a collapsed node via an artificial subspace gate is going to take you to the exact same place in the system that the original node did.
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I guess that BP got it wrong then, as in the FS1 ending cutscene you can clearly see the Earth in close proximity to the node, while in BP:AoA they're nowhere near the Earth when they arrive in the system for the first time (or at the end either). Also, I don't think that WiH supports a near-Earth jumpnode, as it would effectively put the planet itself within the GTVA holdings.
easily hand waved.
Firstly there is what 50? years between FS1 closing cutscene and BP:AoA, The solar system will change very noticeably in that time, also there are a number of gas giants in the system would effect things using the gravity theory perhaps moving the node away from Earth orbit.
Secondly the Lucifer was undergoing a subspace altering explosion at the time which might throw the maths out significantly
Thirdly how does the jumpgate factor in, does it have any effect on the jump corridor.
Fourthly going back to point 1 what is the Earth's orbital position at the end of FS1 compared to AoA
Fourth point doesn't work assuming the node is static in relation to the star, (which i think is the argument, considering the other post said BP got it wrong). Yeah true when the Orestes jumps in the earth could be on the other side of the star, but the GTVA-UEF war lasts much longer then a year, all the GTVA would have to do is wait for Earth to spin back round to them, insta win. I somehow doubt that the orbit of Earth would change significantly enough within 50 years to make a significant strategic difference in terms of that war. Points 2 & 3 are fair, and i don't think anyone knows the answer to that haha (i suppose BP canon can handle the effects of those two things, depending on how they happen to interpret nodes in the first place), but if nodes are static then point 4 doesn't work imho.
Regardless though, I think we have to assume nodes are static (in relation to their stars), how else would the Knossos still have been in position 8000 years later? I find it unlikely that the Knossos could have somehow managed to 'tag' itself to the node and follow it around without some kind of power output that would be significant enough for the GTSC Erikson to detect - and it didn't have that output.
That's my position, but I recognize that it can also be argued canonically that they move because static nodes would probably have static defenses (installations built for combat) rather then easily deployed and packed up RBC's and Sentry guns. As the nodes lack those defenses they either:
A) move
B) The GTA/PVE/GTVA are colossally stupid
C) All nodes that Alpha one encounters have had their defenses destroyed/are new and don't have any yet
D) perhaps static defenses are simply not cost effective
Canon just isn't clear enough on this one, but i feel the evidence of the longevity of the dormant Knossos is a pretty strong argument in favor of static (in relation to their star) nodes
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Yeah true when the Orestes jumps in the earth could be on the other side of the star, but the GTVA-UEF war lasts much longer then a year, all the GTVA would have to do is wait for Earth to spin back round to them, insta win.
Wat
How having the node in view of Earth is an insta win.
I mean, you're still a few millions klicks from it. Which means you're one subspace jump from it. Which means you're still as far away from it as if the jump node was the other side of Sol.
Seriously, since when is distance relevant, when we're using subspace ?
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Yeah true when the Orestes jumps in the earth could be on the other side of the star, but the GTVA-UEF war lasts much longer then a year, all the GTVA would have to do is wait for Earth to spin back round to them, insta win.
Wat
How having the node in view of Earth is an insta win.
I mean, you're still a few millions klicks from it. Which means you're one subspace jump from it. Which means you're still as far away from it as if the jump node was the other side of Sol.
Seriously, since when is distance relevant, when we're using subspace ?
If the node was close enough to be in view of earth (and earth wasn't a pinprick in the FS1 end cutscene, it was nearby) Then the GTVA wouldn't need Neptune. They wouldn't need Jupiter. Their supply chain would be non-existent because they could just keep all the supplies in delta serpentis and pop through the gate when they needed repairs.
Seriously, the GTVA fleet could just come herp derping through the gate en masse, it wouldnt matter how many destroyers they could support in system, because their objective is to close to the gate to require sustained logistic presence in the system.
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Also Admiral Petrach said that the Knossos might not have been detected because it was inactive 15 years ago from 2367, and Bosch sent the Trinity to activate it and get itself trapped.
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In BP canon, nodes move around on highly eccentric orbits.
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If the node was close enough to be in view of earth (and earth wasn't a pinprick in the FS1 end cutscene, it was nearby) Then the GTVA wouldn't need Neptune. They wouldn't need Jupiter. Their supply chain would be non-existent because they could just keep all the supplies in delta serpentis and pop through the gate when they needed repairs.
Seriously, the GTVA fleet could just come herp derping through the gate en masse, it wouldnt matter how many destroyers they could support in system, because their objective is to close to the gate to require sustained logistic presence in the system.
What you say doesn't make any sense.
How would the situation be different from what it is in WiH ?
Wherever the node is in the system, you're still one subspace jump away from Luna, Earth, Neptune or whatever place in Sol you can think of. The physical proximity doesn't matter ****.
Do you think they invaded Neptune first for proximity reasons ? They did that only because it was lightly defended and a potential logistical heaven. If that had been true for Mercury, they would have done the exact same thing.
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If the node was close enough to be in view of earth (and earth wasn't a pinprick in the FS1 end cutscene, it was nearby) Then the GTVA wouldn't need Neptune. They wouldn't need Jupiter. Their supply chain would be non-existent because they could just keep all the supplies in delta serpentis and pop through the gate when they needed repairs.
Seriously, the GTVA fleet could just come herp derping through the gate en masse, it wouldnt matter how many destroyers they could support in system, because their objective is to close to the gate to require sustained logistic presence in the system.
What you say doesn't make any sense.
How would the situation be different from what it is in WiH ?
Wherever the node is in the system, you're still one subspace jump away from Luna, Earth, Neptune or whatever place in Sol you can think of. The physical proximity doesn't matter ****.
Do you think they invaded Neptune first for proximity reasons ? They did that only because it was lightly defended and a potential logistical heaven. If that had been true for Mercury, they would have done the exact same thing.
Distance does make a difference if not in time traveled then at least in ability TO travel. The impression I get from the actions of ships in canon is that one jump can't carry you to ANYWHERE in the system, only a set distance. As such, ships often have to jump in at pretty bad locations for their missions. Examples of this would include:
The Taurus attacking the Plato. Seriously, I know the shivans kicked its **** in, but if they hadn't, that was NOT an effective attack range, not even close. That was WAYYYYYYY off. And they had accurate coordinates for the Plato, a wing of Anubises had just jumped in a click out, why did the taurus have to be so fa away?
The Plato itself was obviously equipped with a jumpdrive, so why did it jump in so damn far away from the node?
The Taranis in its attempted escape from Ikeya
The rosetta and their omega transports
The freighters attempting to escape deneb in fs2
In all of these cases, if the jump drives didnt have a limit on how far they could take he ships in a single jump why would these ships have exited subspace so far from their objectives?
Another case, the convoy you escort in FS2 to supply the colossus.. Why? If you are ALWAYS one jump from your target then why wouldn't they just wait for the colossus to arrive, hit their drives and jump in right at the colossus instead of risking attack?
Perhaps the most damning of all, the Bastion chasing the Lucifer. I mean seriously, if jump drives could take you ANYWHERE in the system in one jump why the hell would the Bastion jump in 22 clicks from the Sol node? How would Shima explain that to command. "yeah so heads up command, I know I'm supposed to save earth and everything, but i jumped in 22 clicks out and now i my drives are down. Sorry, the Lucy is getting away!!!"
There certainly aren't 'distortion fields' around the nodes, or at least not ones that large, based on the Prophecy jumping in right next to the sol nod, the Carthage at the Knossos, etc. So while that confirms the nodes don't have 'deadzones' around them, that would imply that either the GTVA/GTA/PVN are criminally retarded, or you can only go so far on one drive charge. By your logic, Convoys should NEVER need escort. They should jump into a system, sit at the node with friendly forces until their drives recharge and then happily be on their way to the next node through subspace all the way.
I have poured way to many hours into escort missions that pissed me off, ive gotta believe that they were actually necessary and command wasn't just jerking me around and choosing not to use subspace :P
Additionally, since we're arguing in the BPverse, look at the Carthage's backup drive. It is said that its only strong enough to take them so far, and they end up getting caught at Saturn. Now unless the backup drive is COMPLETELY different in every way from all other drives (which I suppose is possible but I think incredibly unlikely), that implies that its just a scaled down version of a normal drive, made for short distance jumps. But that also implies that all drives have a max distance limit, as i mentioned above
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IMO, the most obvious reason for large ships to not just jump in and sit right at a node is to prevent potentially catastrophic collisions. Space is big, so long as everyone isn't intentionally trying to occupy the same(say...2k diameter?) sphere.
Also, if everyone did the 'obvious', blockading warships or fighter/bomber groups would always know exactly where every ship attempting to leave the system will jump in, and they can just park themselves right outside the node, like Mjolnir sentries, and butcher anything that shows up. Theoretically, by picking a more variable spot to jump in, as a policy, you give yourself some time/distance to turn and run to buy time for your subspace drive to recharge for a quick intra-system getaway, if you discover trouble near the node(or, for your escorts to remove the trouble, if you have any).
To be entirely fair, though, the needs of the story sometimes just come first, i.e. the Taurus; giving you the 'oh crap' moment when, after chasing down the 'unknowns' for the visual ID, they jump out and reappear several klicks away, right next to the science cruiser you're supposed to be guarding. The Bastion's run to the node also likely suffers partly from this(rule of dramatic, letting Alpha 1 and the strike force run the gauntlet on the way to the node), though the need to not unknowingly blunder in and jump right in front of the Lucifer might give them some excuse.
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Distance does make a difference if not in time traveled then at least in ability TO travel. The impression I get from the actions of ships in canon is that one jump can't carry you to ANYWHERE in the system, only a set distance. As such, ships often have to jump in at pretty bad locations for their missions. Examples of this would include:
The Taurus attacking the Plato. Seriously, I know the shivans kicked its **** in, but if they hadn't, that was NOT an effective attack range, not even close. That was WAYYYYYYY off. And they had accurate coordinates for the Plato, a wing of Anubises had just jumped in a click out, why did the taurus have to be so fa away?
The Plato itself was obviously equipped with a jumpdrive, so why did it jump in so damn far away from the node?
The Taranis in its attempted escape from Ikeya
The rosetta and their omega transports
The freighters attempting to escape deneb in fs2
In all of these cases, if the jump drives didnt have a limit on how far they could take he ships in a single jump why would these ships have exited subspace so far from their objectives?
Another case, the convoy you escort in FS2 to supply the colossus.. Why? If you are ALWAYS one jump from your target then why wouldn't they just wait for the colossus to arrive, hit their drives and jump in right at the colossus instead of risking attack?
Perhaps the most damning of all, the Bastion chasing the Lucifer. I mean seriously, if jump drives could take you ANYWHERE in the system in one jump why the hell would the Bastion jump in 22 clicks from the Sol node? How would Shima explain that to command. "yeah so heads up command, I know I'm supposed to save earth and everything, but i jumped in 22 clicks out and now i my drives are down. Sorry, the Lucy is getting away!!!"
There certainly aren't 'distortion fields' around the nodes, or at least not ones that large, based on the Prophecy jumping in right next to the sol nod, the Carthage at the Knossos, etc. So while that confirms the nodes don't have 'deadzones' around them, that would imply that either the GTVA/GTA/PVN are criminally retarded, or you can only go so far on one drive charge. By your logic, Convoys should NEVER need escort. They should jump into a system, sit at the node with friendly forces until their drives recharge and then happily be on their way to the next node through subspace all the way.
I have poured way to many hours into escort missions that pissed me off, ive gotta believe that they were actually necessary and command wasn't just jerking me around and choosing not to use subspace :P
None of what you've mentioned so far is relevant to BP canon. Different eras, different technologies, not to mention some meh :v-old: mission design choices.
Additionally, since we're arguing in the BPverse, look at the Carthage's backup drive. It is said that its only strong enough to take them so far, and they end up getting caught at Saturn. Now unless the backup drive is COMPLETELY different in every way from all other drives (which I suppose is possible but I think incredibly unlikely), that implies that its just a scaled down version of a normal drive, made for short distance jumps. But that also implies that all drives have a max distance limit, as i mentioned above
It's a crash jump. Which means that it didn't have time to calculate coordinates. Which is why they ended up captured by the Saturn gravity well until it recharges anyone of its two jump drives. It's said clearly in the debriefings and briefings, did you even read em ?
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I was merely stating that FS canon implies that distance DOES matter for a jump, if BP canon directly says that's not true, show me the quote, i shall concede, perhaps i missed it
Additionally, yes I did read the briefings, and i remember there being a line about the Carthage's backup drive not being strong enough to take it back to Jupiter. Which backs up my point.
But even discounting this, the UEF had an AMBUSH in place set to hit the Carthage when it dropped out of subspace, which means they KNEW that he Carthage couldn't make it to Jupiter, crash jump or not. Yes, the crash jump is the reason the Carthage ended up in the exact position it did, but it certainly didn't hinge on the crash jump screwing the Carthage over.
I mean what kind of planning would that be. "We'll lure the Carthage into a trap, and when it jumps away, we'll hope it gets unlucky. Also pilots may die for this. And the crew of the mining stations. If the Carthage DOESN'T get unlucky with their crash jump then its all for naught. But we'll do it this way"
As such, the crash jump has nothing to do with the actual planning of the operation, which was designed to take advantage of the fact that they KNEW the carthage couldn't make it all the way back to jupiter, implying that jump drives have limits on how far they could take a ship on a single charge.
If there was no range, why would we need nodes at all? if normal space means squat when in subspace we should be able to hop from system to system wherever and whenever we please. Instead, we use a naturally formed phenomenon to boost our travel capacity, allowing us to go from system to system, again showing that there is a distance limit.
I'm starting to lose track of the sub arguments against arguments against the original point we were disagreeing over xD
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I was merely stating that FS canon implies that distance DOES matter for a jump
wat
No. It doesn't. Anywhere. Cite a source for that statement now.
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I was merely stating that FS canon implies that distance DOES matter for a jump
wat
No. It doesn't. Anywhere. Cite a source for that statement now.
He almost did, but his evidence makes a better argument for "Hurr durr, navicomputers suck balls" than it did for distance.
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Drogoth makes good points.
Why does it sometimes take minutes for support to arrive and sometimes seconds? Nowhere in canon did we have confirmation that in-system subspace jumps have no range or any kind of perational limit.
If anything, the gravity wells of planets, moons and similar object would turn jumping tin oa far more complicated matter, so going from point A to point B is a system may very well require multiple jumps.
If there really is no limit to subspace jumping, then FS and BP make little sense, in the way their military operations go. The GTVA could just jump it's entire fleet right above Earth and it's de-facto game over for the UAF (threat of orbital bombardment).
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The "We need jump nodes" argument is pretty strong in terms of a distance limit.. if anything, we know that standard jumps can't literally take you as far as you want or jump nodes would be useless.
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The "We need jump nodes" argument is pretty strong in terms of a distance limit.. if anything, we know that standard jumps can't literally take you as far as you want or jump nodes would be useless.
I thought you just needed the more stable jump nodes if you wanted to hop between gravity wells? Or have I just made that up?
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Intrasystem jumps only work in the presence of a large centralized gravity field, like a star's. You can't cross interstellar space with them, so that's where nodes come in.
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The GTVA could just jump it's entire fleet right above Earth and it's de-facto game over for the UAF (threat of orbital bombardment).
You apparently missed the part where the senior GTVA military officer defected and told them that wasn't actually going to happen because the GTVA couldn't afford to **** up the infrastructure that badly.
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Intrasystem jumps only work in the presence of a large centralized gravity field, like a star's. You can't cross interstellar space with them, so that's where nodes come in.
That's as much conjecture as the rest of it.. sounds plausible.. but don't state it as canon fact...
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I'll continue to do so, because it's straight out of the FS2 tech room entry on subspace. :p
First, an intrasystem jump can occur between two points in a star system. Most small, space-faring vessels are equipped with motivators capable of these short jumps. The presence of an intense gravitational field is required, prohibiting travel beyond the boundaries of a star system.
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FINE! :doubt:
More seriously... oops... :lol:
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I was merely stating that FS canon implies that distance DOES matter for a jump
wat
No. It doesn't. Anywhere. Cite a source for that statement now.
Notice that I said 'implies' not 'states'. I already posted quite a bit of evidence for why that is implied, see my post above,
I was merely stating that FS canon implies that distance DOES matter for a jump
wat
No. It doesn't. Anywhere. Cite a source for that statement now.
He almost did, but his evidence makes a better argument for "Hurr durr, navicomputers suck balls" than it did for distance.
I suppose it could be interpreted that way, but I don't buy that navcoms suck that hard. I did also mention the Carthage/Dashor as well as the Prophecy, which were all able to make pinpoint accurate jumps.
Additional evidence for non-crappy navcoms are:
the Galatea arriving in good position in La Routa Della Fortuna
the Mecross defending the PVD Hope against the SC Thunder,
The Sathanas that destroyed the Colly (the sath arrived in firing position)
fighters in general,
GTC Orff in Small deadly space
The Psamtik in the attack on the NTC Impervious and that other cruiser that i dont remember
The Vasudan cruiser and corvette that attacked the iceni, etc, etc.
All of these ships arrived on station where there needed to be. None of them showed up 9 clicks out of effective range (Taurus) or 22 clicks out (Bastion), and I don't buy that it was just luck.
As such, I still think the evidence I listed in the other post, + this stuff, shows there's a limit on jump distance, or perhaps at certain distances jumps become inaccurate.
In that case, there is 'max' jump range and 'effective jump range' which, as this is all just extrapolating from events without a clear yes or no, I think is entirely possible.
Either way that backs up my original point. If the D.S. Jump node was near earth in BP, the tevs would've had a much easier time of winning, because in either scenario, (max range or.. effective range) distance matters.
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The GTVA could just jump it's entire fleet right above Earth and it's de-facto game over for the UAF (threat of orbital bombardment).
You apparently missed the part where the senior GTVA military officer defected and told them that wasn't actually going to happen because the GTVA couldn't afford to **** up the infrastructure that badly.
Which is why they bombed luna and blitzed the orbital infrastructure right? Besides, all they need is enough ships to blitz sweep first fleet off station, or to destroy them, and mission accomplished. They can hold a gun to the head of earth and force a settlement. And if there's no range on jumps then there's no reason for the Tevs to have not already done that. Pile ten or twelve destroyers and their escorts in for one massive push, steamroll opposition through sheer force of numbers, if it fails, whatever, jump drives will cycle fast enough for the ships to escape again.
Which is why I agree with Trashman, the military operations of the Tevs wouldnt make any sense if you could jump anywhere in system from anywhere else, why would they have not already done this? Why would they capture jupiter. Why not just repeatedly dump SSM's into earth orbit all day every day?
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BP canon indicates the presence of the Durga (and probably by extension, Vajradhara) uberbombers (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/UEB_Durga#Blue_Planet:_War_in_Heaven_Tech_Description) is the reason just dog-piling warships on Earth and Mars wouldn't work.
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Notice that I said 'implies' not 'states'. I already posted quite a bit of evidence for why that is implied, see my post above,
It doesn't imply anything of the sort. There are a half-dozen explanations I can come up with for any of your examples that do not require what you are saying, and worse yet, a half-dozen reasons why each of them makes even less sense with your stated reasoning then it does with most others. You're voodoo sharking now; the way you'd have it is stupider than not explaining it all.
If the range limit is true, then why are they jumping at such fringes of it? Why is it always trying to reach an object just beyond their jump range? Especially when they could simply cruise out at the end where they weren't being actively threatened to reach a single-jump no-cruise distance. Your theory grows ever more unlikely as an explanation the more it is examined.
Which is why they bombed luna and blitzed the orbital infrastructure right?
You want to arguing directly the Battuta's stated reasons, that's your problem. Hush.
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BP canon indicates the presence of the Durga (and probably by extension, Vajradhara) uberbombers (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/UEB_Durga#Blue_Planet:_War_in_Heaven_Tech_Description) is the reason just dog-piling warships on Earth and Mars wouldn't work.
Unless that thing can one-shot anything up to a destie(and yes I read the tech entry), I just don't understand how 30 or 40 bombers could possibly be considered enough of a threat vs. an all in GTVA strikeforce consisting of all the ships we've seen fully stocked and staffed. That's at least a dozen covettes, at least 3 destroyers, said destroyer's fighter complements and last, but not least, 20ish cruisers(?). The math just doesn't work out unless those Durga's are a)virtually unkillable by fighter weapons and b)packing a lot more wallop than a boa with 3 banks of Helios..
On topic:
Upon further consideration, I think we should consider the intra-system subspace drives to be like the FTL on the Galactica. Range isn't the issue, a set of proper coordinates are. Sure you can jump from one end of Pluto's orbit to the other for next to no cost, but if you don't know EXACTLY where you are coming out, you could come out 10 or 15% of the distance traveled off your mark. Nodes are different, they're ends of a tunnel(sort of), so you don't have to know your coordinates exactly.
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After having found this in Pawns :
Not a problem, Wargods. We tracked her exit vector - that experimental drive doesn't have the range to take her back to Jupiter.
I have revised my posture toward BP canon regarding jump drives. My theory is this :
- Technically, range is involved in the jump procedure.
- It's been very long (probably since the T-V war or before) that we master the subspace technology well enough to direct enough energy output in our drives to cross an entire star system from end to end in a single jump, so intra-system distance has not been a concern since then.
- The Carthage's secondary jump drive is experimental, and plugged on a ship that wasn't designed for that. As such, it's probably limited by several factors, including the power output it can receive. Which explains the above statement.
- New sprint jump drives such as the ones equipped on the Atreus and Serkr probably don't suffer this limitation, being a generation ahead and equipped on ships with a much better power output.
In general (out of BPverse), I agree with Liberator's idea : navigation coordinates are the thing that matter in term of intra-system jump and accuracy of the jump, since power output isn't a concern anymore.
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The GTVA could just jump it's entire fleet right above Earth and it's de-facto game over for the UAF (threat of orbital bombardment).
You apparently missed the part where the senior GTVA military officer defected and told them that wasn't actually going to happen because the GTVA couldn't afford to **** up the infrastructure that badly.
They don't have to. The GTVA fleet is larger than the UAF fleet. Jump is as close to Earth as possible. Now the UAF have the problem, since Earth would be behind the GTVA fleet and nay miss shot = "uups. Did we jsut blew up Sidney/Moscow/NY?"
Not to mention once can easly overpower the enemy in any specific point.
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BP canon indicates the presence of the Durga (and probably by extension, Vajradhara) uberbombers (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/UEB_Durga#Blue_Planet:_War_in_Heaven_Tech_Description) is the reason just dog-piling warships on Earth and Mars wouldn't work.
Not good enough reason.
Those bombers have to be launched, cross the distance, get a lock, fire and so on...
In that time a single destroyer can level several cities. And this is even if the destroyer jumps in close to the bombers.
If he jumps in on the other side of the planet..the ship has even more time to unleash the pain.
And another factor for having a s***load of ships attack en masse, is that you cna pulverize an enemy before he can react. 3 destroyers jumping in right next to a station can destroy it before the bombers can even launch.
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You're basically saying (while double-posting) that BP canon is bull****. Fine by you. It's still BP canon. Deal with it.
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What he's saying is that, from a known tactical standpoint, 3 squadrons of bombers, no matter how potent the bombers are, are not sufficient reason to hold off from making things real in Earth orbit. BP canon not withstanding, none of most of us have seen a single Durga jump in and kill a destroyer before her defenders can engage and obliterate it and jump out again before being destroyed herself. 30 bombers vs. 3 destoyers worth of fighters are 30 dead bombers, doesn't matter how tough.
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It's easy to commit genocide by bombarding Earth from orbit, but you really don't want to.
1) Once you've finished destroying the birthplace of humanity, all of your shiny destroyers will be gone (destroyed by Durgas). Remember the UEF can shove Durgas down your destroyers' throats before they can jump out. Even if you somehow manage to save your destroyers, your support craft and fighter squadrons will be in tatters.
2) GTVA populace probably wouldn't take too kindly to their government committing mass genocide (probably leading to huge civil unrest and rebellion - You could always crush this with more orbital bombardment, but really now?).
3) You have achieved nothing militarily. All the infrastructure we wanted to capture intact is gone, and at the cost of a lot of our capital ships and crewmen. Steele's Blitz on Earth was pragmatic evil, destroying everything is just stupid cartoon villain evil.
4) You've achieved nothing politically. You've now shown everyone involved without a doubt that the Tevs are officially the bad guys. Remember that the whole damn point of the war was to make sure we were able to fight the Shivans by getting rid of Ubuntu pacifism. Not only have you needlessly wasted a lot of our capital ship deterrant, but also probably galvanized Ubuntu beliefs and splintered Terran population (see point 2). The Zods probably wouldn't take to kindly to genocide either.
Sure the UEF would be wiped clean from history but realistically so would the GTVA by the time you're finished.
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So... what does all this have to do with....
In FS canon, do jump nodes revolve around their system's star(s) like planets? Or do they remain static relative to other bodies and stellar phenomena in system?
?
(Just curious)
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"No canon info" is probably the only answer you'll get.
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I'd propose that they are influenced by gravity and revolve around the stars. Otherwise it makes no sense for the nodes to keep up with the star's path through the galaxy.
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So... what does all this have to do with....
In FS canon, do jump nodes revolve around their system's star(s) like planets? Or do they remain static relative to other bodies and stellar phenomena in system?
?
(Just curious)
Oh wait, this is that thread?
I thought this was another thread entirely. :blah:
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In High Noon, the Gamma Draconis and Vega jump nodes are just under 34 kilometers away from one another. Sun scale is 2.
In Their Finest Hour, we're at the Gamma Draconis node. The Vega node is nowhere in sight. Sun scale is 2.25.
In Apocalypse, we're at the Vega node. The Gamma Draconis node is nowhere in sight. Sun scale is 2.
In Exodus, we're at the Epsilon Pegasi node. No other nodes are present. Sun scale is 1.
In Clash of the Titans II, we're told in the briefing that we're going to the Epsilon Pegasi node (it's "Jump Node 0" in the mission, but whatever). "Jump Node 1," which could be either Vega or Gamma Draconis, is just over 29.5 kilometers away. Sun scale is 2.
Canon is pretty clear that jump nodes move relative to their primaries and to one another.
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Good research! IMO, that's pretty conclusive, even if it's the result of :v: not thinking it through...
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No, what the canon is clear about is they didn't give a damn about it at all... oh well I rather preferred the influenced by gravity version.
I'll stick to it myself then.
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No, what the canon is clear about is they didn't give a damn about it at all...
That too. :D
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No, what the canon is clear about is they didn't give a damn about it at all... oh well I rather preferred the influenced by gravity version.
I'll stick to it myself then.
I believe I even said that in my post.... (That they didn't care/think it through.)
However, the fact remains that in canon missions, the nodes are all over the place.. and given that the original question was whether or not nodes could move within systems... that is pretty conclusive evidence that they do. Whatever the "Scientific" reason is, doesn't really matter.
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^ Yeah I was replying to Lord's comment, not yours.
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It's easy to commit genocide by bombarding Earth from orbit, but you really don't want to.
1) Once you've finished destroying the birthplace of humanity, all of your shiny destroyers will be gone (destroyed by Durgas). Remember the UEF can shove Durgas down your destroyers' throats before they can jump out. Even if you somehow manage to save your destroyers, your support craft and fighter squadrons will be in tatters.
BS.
Bombers are slow and ponderous. It takes just a minute or two for a destroyers jump drive to re-charge.
That, plus it's escorting fighter complement = bye, bye Durgas.
Go ahead...do a little sim and you'll see what I mean. By the time bombers launch, evade the interceptors, get a lock, fire, and the SLOW bombs traverse the distance or hit (assuming they're not shot down) - FAR more than a minute.
But time enough for a few beam salvos.
2) GTVA populace probably wouldn't take too kindly to their government committing mass genocide (probably leading to huge civil unrest and rebellion - You could always crush this with more orbital bombardment, but really now?).
You dont have to. With Earth as your mean shield, the UEF will be responsible for any damage.
And the threat of destruiction might be enough.
Note that it's not even necessary to do even that. A massed attacked on the UEF fleet is all that's necessary. Without jump limitations, logistics problems from bringing in an entire fleet are non-existent.
4) You've achieved nothing politically. You've now shown everyone involved without a doubt that the Tevs are officially the bad guys. Remember that the whole damn point of the war was to make sure we were able to fight the Shivans by getting rid of Ubuntu pacifism. Not only have you needlessly wasted a lot of our capital ship deterrant, but also probably galvanized Ubuntu beliefs and splintered Terran population (see point 2). The Zods probably wouldn't take to kindly to genocide either.
Given how tight the media control by hte GTVA is...who would know? And who would be blamed? Heck, with carefull media manipulation, yo ucould even blame the UEF for any damage caused during hte battle.
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tl;dr TrashMan doesn't understand BP canon.
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tl;dr TrashMan doesn't understand BP canon.
Old news are old.
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Biggest problem with Trash's theory, considering it is possible inside BP's canon, is the notion that the GTVA fleet can operate between UEF and earth, using the latter as a shield. Not if you jump into the battlefield sideways, my bro ;).
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Everyone vote TrashMan for Secretary-General of the General Assembly!
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Ultimatively Earth is irrelevant.
Without range and logistics being a issue (and unlimited jump drive do just that), the UEF stands NO chance whatsoever. Teh bbigger fish wins. And GTVA is the bigger fish.
Tell me, what is stopping the GTVA from using it's superior numbers and close-range firepower?
What is stoping them from ammasing a large fleet and jumping right next to most important UEF military assests and vaporizing them?
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Of course. Problem is, logistics ARE an issue. It's made very, very clear in WiH.
Have you even played it ?
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'Coz it's precisely a game of cat n' mouse? Where you have to figure out where the ships are effectively hiding? And dunno if you noticed, but BP WiH p1 did show a bunch of moments just like the ones you are describing. For instance, when two lone frigates made a SOS through space, the serk team found them out and beamraped them. But what do I know right?
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Of course. Problem is, logistics ARE an issue. It's made very, very clear in WiH.
Have you even played it ?
I have.
But what teh game sez and what the tech room sez and what the fluff sez and what the common sense sez...can be different things.
I couldn't care less how strongly the briefing sez logistic are an issue, if the very bacground fluff contradicts it.
Jump drives wihout limits = trivial logistics. This is not even debatable.
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I think there is something in the Freespace universe you don't seem to be aware of.
It's called "jump nodes".
Also known as "the bottleneck of DOOM" in BPverse.
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Do UEF logistic ships have jump drives or are they constricted by
trade lanes jump gates?
No such trouble for Anemois i grant, but there's a limit to how many craft one can service right?
It took two to maintain a battlegroup....
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I don't think the UEF has any logistics ships. (except for the ones that defected or they captured)
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The UEF logistic ships are called stations. They're in orbit and the UEF has a ****ton of em.
Ingame evidence from AoA and WiH strongly implies that a Tev Anemoi can sustain logistically one destroyer and accompanying taskforce (that means about 3-4 corvettes, about the same number of cruisers, and all the fighter complement of the destroyer).
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They also have enough spare crew to totally replace an entire cruiser's crew...
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The UEF logistic ships are called stations. They're in orbit and the UEF has a ****ton of em.
Stations can't travel outside of a system. Or outside of their orbital position. Or anywhere, really. They serve the same purpose during the war but they're not logistics ships.
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Ahh you mean those which were raped in the latest GTVA incursion to earth?
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They also have enough spare crew to totally replace an entire cruiser's crew...
Skeleton crew. Muuuuch less than a normal crew. Depending on who they decided to keep on board, you can probably cut the crewing requirements by 50% and still have it move and kinda shoot at stuff.
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You'd think that in the future, all you would require is like a crew membership of ten people... and all the rest be extremely automated.
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Just look at a modern aircraft carrier not all of that **** can be automated and these ships are like ten times the size of a Nimitz.
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Not to mention that, between space phenomenae and nukes, ships are constantly bathing in EM. Not very good for maintaining automation.
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Just look at a modern aircraft carrier not all of that **** can be automated and these ships are like ten times the size of a Nimitz.
Tell me what is within a nimitz that can't be automated in the future.
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Tell me what is within a nimitz that can't be automated in the future.
Anything required to make a shoot/no-shoot decision, a course change decision, designate target priority, conduct repairs to battle damage, control any system subject to possible serious damage or stress in action...
I can probably come up with a few more if you like.
The thing that strikes me as bizarre is that you suddenly need Anemois at all, when previously the Terran fleet got by without, or the assertion that you can't surge ships into the combat zone for a week or two and then withdraw them, and they'll be able to operate on their own stores during this time.
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I don't think the issue is logistics so much as it wouldn't really get you anywhere. You'd probably win, but also sustain massive losses in the process.
Actually back on the subject of logistics the GTVA were operating in their own systems in FS2 (minus the nebula of course) but in Sol they only have control of Artemis Station and Neptune.
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I personally see the Anemois as a continued evolution of the GTVA logistics chain. With FS2 there was a massive increase in the size of freighters and the introduction of gas miners (though presumably they have always existed on some scale and were only first encountered in FS2) both of which were introduced to reduce the dependence on supply depots. The Anemois is a logical step beyond and is in essence a mobile supply depot, combining the storage capacity with material processing and fabrication facilities is a logical improvement on this.
So yes the GTVA can go on happily without them but Anemois makes the logistics aspect of fleet and battle management more streamlined and easier to protect, if higher in target value.
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I don't think the issue is logistics so much as it wouldn't really get you anywhere. You'd probably win, but also sustain massive losses in the process.
I'm not suggesting a shift in strategy, however, so unless they're already taking massive losses, adding more ships to their side of the table should work to decrease the losses they're taking.
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Tell me what is within a nimitz that can't be automated in the future.
Anything required to make a shoot/no-shoot decision
No. Drones are actually doing this as we speak... it will be far easier for an AI in 200 years to understand what they should or not do.
, a course change decision
There's the commander to do this. One person. I entertained the existence of ten people.
, designate target priority
No. Easily accomplished by an AI.
, conduct repairs to battle damage,
No. Drones may eventually be designed to do so. Not such a big deal, if you think we have 200 years to design them.
control any system subject to possible serious damage or stress in action...
No. Trivial problem really.
I can probably come up with a few more if you like.
I bet you can.
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The biggest argument for big crews is repairing damage. What if the drone bay is damage? Her derp all our drones are now useless! Same goes for long term repairs if the drones have no power supply.
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What if the drone bay is damaged? What if the crews are damaged? I really can't see the problem with the "drone bay", specially if you don't have one, and instead use the entire ship as the environment for most drones.
Long term repairs are an issue that are easily resolved in "spare time", back in some dock, or with some other external support. Short term, you have a ship at war, and I see no reason to put very qualified men and women in danger when you can instead use drones for the job.
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No. Drones are actually doing this as we speak... it will be far easier for an AI in 200 years to understand what they should or not do.
No current or proposed model of armed drone is allowed to attack a target without a human giving the actual command, and this is unlikely to change for the simple reason that nobody wants to encourage the robot rebellion, or for moral reasons allow completely automated lethal action. Speak of things in which you have some grounding. Humans are also infinitely less likely to break down, and a good deal harder to stop working correctly.
There's the commander to do this. One person. I entertained the existence of ten people.
Task overload denies you. A commander is absorbed in processing data and making decisions on targeting and strategy; while he will undoubtedly give course orders, a second person at the helm is required for safety reasons, as there are things the commander may not see. Similarly the commander is unlikely to be alone for the same reason, so there will probably be a second officer in the loop since a human's ability to process multiple tasks is limited. And so on and so forth, the larger the ship, the more people are required simply to command it effectively.
No. Easily accomplished by an AI.
Indeed? Then why is it so easy to screw with their heads on this in many games? AIs short of strong lack the flexibility and adaptability to handle this correctly.
No. Drones may eventually be designed to do so. Not such a big deal, if you think we have 200 years to design them.
You are proposing the existence of true AI in a humanoid platform then? Short of a true artificial intelligence the ability to adapt to unpredictable scope and types of damage would be difficult, nearly impossible; similarly any proposed drone must be able to maneuver both in gravity and non-gravity environments, reasonably good at dealing with extremes of EM radiation from both damaged equipment and enemy fire, and able to manipulate a wide variety of tools and materials.
Even if you can manage all that, the odds are good trained humans will be cheaper and easier to replace.
No. Trivial problem really.
As above: Humans are also infinitely less likely to break down, and a good deal harder to stop working correctly. Why do we still have humans in nuclear power plants? Surely we can construct a foolproof safety system by your logic?
Well, no, we can't. And trained humans are cheaper than trying.
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Topic title is now 'Question about jump nodes leading to very informative offtopicness', mhm.
Also, I doubt the AI can truly replicate a ship captain's hilarity and his rag-tag crew of maggots!
Oh Infi...why?! ):
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The thing that strikes me as bizarre is that you suddenly need Anemois at all, when previously the Terran fleet got by without, or the assertion that you can't surge ships into the combat zone for a week or two and then withdraw them, and they'll be able to operate on their own stores during this time.
Well, in FS2 retail, ships that sustained heavy damage in the nebula (the Aquitaine for instance) had to fall back to Capella (two systems away) to make repairs. Judging by what we have seen in BP:AoA, the Anemois can act as a mobile repair plateform. Having a logistics ship also reduce the impact of being cut from supply lines.
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And we never saw more than 2 desties operating in the nebula at the same time. Which coincides with the number of desties the tevs sent in Sol without previous logistical support at the beginning of the war. I think we can base the node bottleneckness on that.
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Logistics ships also somewhat discourage rash tactics against taking back the Sol node. If the UEF knew that logistical support was dead the instant the node was theirs, they would naturally be inclined to throw some heavy weight at it. However, if they knew that 2 logistics ships could keep Serkr squad and a few destroyers repaired and working for months after they lose access to the Sol node, well then, it's not nearly as attractive a solution.
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I think there is something in the Freespace universe you don't seem to be aware of.
It's called "jump nodes".
Also known as "the bottleneck of DOOM" in BPverse.
Really? Bottlenecks are only a problem if you get the enemy fleet on the other side.. THEN node blockades make sense. But the UEF doesn't hold the Sol-DS node. If they did, the GTVA wouldn't in Sol in the first place.
So again, what kind of a bottleneck are we talking about here?
GTVA ships operate in Sol. They hold the node.
Any ship in system can jump for support/resupply/repairs in 2 minutes.
Repair ships and reinforcements from DS can be there in 15-20.
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What kind of logistical set-up is in Delta Serpentis anyways? If you don't have shipyards and other logistical infrastructure that is equivalent to two anemois, then it doesn't matter how fast you can get to/from DS.
It's also pretty advantageous to have the ability to set up camp anywhere you want, and move at a moment's notice. At least, it's definitely preferable to having stationary bases.
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It's not just Delta Serpentis, you can get supplies to Sol from the whole of GTVA space without any hindrance.
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That's true for supplies such as food and ordinance, but not true of ship repairs. As I understand it, logistics vessels can repair destroyers to 100% at the front lines. Unless DS has something that can do the same thing, you have to fly your destroyers to some other star system in GTVA space, which is no longer some hour-long trip.
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Ganymedes
Also ship rotation.
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Which aren't mobile. Is the GTVA actually going to build 2-3 of these in DS just for the Sol operation? They're pretty huge last I checked.
But yeah, it's definitely feasible to have a stationary support base set up in DS. However, if you already have a handful of Anemois lying around from before, why not use them as they are in WiH?
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:wtf:
And?
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My point is, if you're the GTVA, you'd rather use the Anemois you already had from a long time ago, rather than build new Arcadias and Ganymedes in DS just for the Sol operation.
So while they're at it, why would they just sit the Anemois in DS if they can run them out and about in Sol for greater efficiency?
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My point is, if you're the GTVA, you'd rather use the Anemois you already had from a long time ago, rather than build new Arcadias and Ganymedes in DS just for the Sol operation.
You could always move the ship to the system. And then have another ship rotate in to replace it.
So while they're at it, why would they just sit the Anemois in DS if they can run them out and about in Sol for greater efficiency?
Maybe because Wargods
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Well, in FS2 retail, ships that sustained heavy damage in the nebula (the Aquitaine for instance) had to fall back to Capella (two systems away) to make repairs. Judging by what we have seen in BP:AoA, the Anemois can act as a mobile repair plateform. Having a logistics ship also reduce the impact of being cut from supply lines.
Yeah, but on the other hand, that also means you can't attack the logistical base or the damaged ships. Which is one of the things that has made the Shivans so hard to beat, and the GTVA has adopted Shivan doctrine wholesale in the mod in question.
And we never saw more than 2 desties operating in the nebula at the same time. Which coincides with the number of desties the tevs sent in Sol without previous logistical support at the beginning of the war. I think we can base the node bottleneckness on that.
We know a minimum of three destroyers were operating in the nebula at the appearance of the first Sathanas; your wing was recovered by the Memphis, the Psamtik was destroyed, and the Aquitaine hadn't yet gotten out of the nebula a few missions later.
Similarly, the GTVA had a minimum of four destroyers on station in the Nebula during their planned attack on the Sathanas during Speaking In Tongues.
Try again.
Which aren't mobile. Is the GTVA actually going to build 2-3 of these in DS just for the Sol operation? They're pretty huge last I checked.
It's pretty obvious they can be redeployed as necessary, as the tech description says they set up some in Capella and that front wasn't live for more than few months. Also don't trust how campaigns show them, with the ship through the middle; the many extensions are where docking is meant. One Ganymede can service many ships at a time; they don't need that many.
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1. They probably gambled that it was more worth it to have 100% of your ships on the front line, and easily maintainable to 100%, instead of debating whether it's really worth it to send home a 81% Deimos to top off its health.
2. Plot becomes more interesting if Wargods are allowed to win something for a change. Also, having the mobile base in Sol itself is insurance in case the GTVA lose the node.
So yeah, the conservative approach would have been to sit the Anemois in DS. But I guess GTVA was too STEELE to wait for ships to take an hour or so on a trip to and from DS. Remember with WiH warfare, battles last like, 10 minutes, so an hour is actually quite a bit of time.
It's pretty obvious they can be redeployed as necessary, as the tech description says they set up some in Capella and that front wasn't live for more than few months. Also don't trust how campaigns show them, with the ship through the middle; the many extensions are where docking is meant. One Ganymede can service many ships at a time; they don't need that many.
Thanks, I had forgot about that. I still think it makes sense that the GTVA would still prefer Anemois to stationary Ganymede rings though, since they're there, better, and sort of a "hey, why not"
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They also have mining and manufacturing capabilities IIRC. The ability to make new fighters in system when you're up against a logistically crippled enemy such as the UEF cannot be underestimated. Instead of having to send your front line destoryer to Delta Serpentis to restock on fighters, replacement fighters and pilots can come to you.
Its probably very expensive fuel wise to ferry everything back and forth from DS
Being able to make a pit stop, replace some armor plating, repair some turrets, stock up on fuel, and jump out again is probably quite vital to a shock group like Serkr
We don't actually know how long the transit between Sol and DS takes, or if it's even the same all the time. An hour might not be so bad, but losing a warship asset for hours or days is potentially crippling to an offense
Scattered freighter groups are easy targets
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I think "Losistic Ships" are a gross, but forgivable simplification of the whole issue. They made a certain amount of sense in AoA (kinda required for the plot as it worked out, and justifiable in an initial invasion force), but the idea that
a) the GTVA needs them to run the war effort when they control a 100% secure area within (conservatively) an hour from the front lines and
b) that one big ship is more practical than a multitude of smaller, more specialized ships to do every kind of logistical task, including refuelling, resupplying of everything from fuel and munitions to food and toilet paper, and large scale repairs is, well, pretty ridiculous. Even if the latter were true for whatever reason, as evidenced by WiH, they're way to valuable to the enemy to give them any chance at destroying/capturing them
However, as also evidenced by WiH, the missions where you capture this ship are fun, and that's far and away more important than any fridge logic issues regarding the Anemoi generally
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Scattered freighter groups are easy targets
In an environment where everything is subject to overwhelming surprise attack without warning, dispersal is probably the best and most sound defense.
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Scattered freighter groups are easy targets
In an environment where everything is subject to overwhelming surprise attack without warning, dispersal is probably the best and most sound defense.
better to be more likely to loose small numbers here and there than risk loosing significant numbers in one go
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...not to mention some meh :v-old: mission design choices.
If anyone here plays ANY videogames, you'd know that reason sometimes has to take a seat while story does its thing. Any laws that :v-old: could have established (or that we agree on) are essentially malleable. This doesn't prove or disprove any of the theories, it just means that they had to happen that way.
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If the node was close enough to be in view of earth (and earth wasn't a pinprick in the FS1 end cutscene, it was nearby) Then the GTVA wouldn't need Neptune. They wouldn't need Jupiter. Their supply chain would be non-existent because they could just keep all the supplies in delta serpentis and pop through the gate when they needed repairs.
Seriously, the GTVA fleet could just come herp derping through the gate en masse, it wouldnt matter how many destroyers they could support in system, because their objective is to close to the gate to require sustained logistic presence in the system.
What you say doesn't make any sense.
How would the situation be different from what it is in WiH ?
Wherever the node is in the system, you're still one subspace jump away from Luna, Earth, Neptune or whatever place in Sol you can think of. The physical proximity doesn't matter ****.
Do you think they invaded Neptune first for proximity reasons ? They did that only because it was lightly defended and a potential logistical heaven. If that had been true for Mercury, they would have done the exact same thing.
Distance does make a difference if not in time traveled then at least in ability TO travel. The impression I get from the actions of ships in canon is that one jump can't carry you to ANYWHERE in the system, only a set distance. As such, ships often have to jump in at pretty bad locations for their missions. Examples of this would include:
The Taurus attacking the Plato. Seriously, I know the shivans kicked its **** in, but if they hadn't, that was NOT an effective attack range, not even close. That was WAYYYYYYY off. And they had accurate coordinates for the Plato, a wing of Anubises had just jumped in a click out, why did the taurus have to be so fa away?
The Plato itself was obviously equipped with a jumpdrive, so why did it jump in so damn far away from the node?
The Taranis in its attempted escape from Ikeya
The rosetta and their omega transports
The freighters attempting to escape deneb in fs2
In all of these cases, if the jump drives didnt have a limit on how far they could take he ships in a single jump why would these ships have exited subspace so far from their objectives?
Another case, the convoy you escort in FS2 to supply the colossus.. Why? If you are ALWAYS one jump from your target then why wouldn't they just wait for the colossus to arrive, hit their drives and jump in right at the colossus instead of risking attack?
Perhaps the most damning of all, the Bastion chasing the Lucifer. I mean seriously, if jump drives could take you ANYWHERE in the system in one jump why the hell would the Bastion jump in 22 clicks from the Sol node? How would Shima explain that to command. "yeah so heads up command, I know I'm supposed to save earth and everything, but i jumped in 22 clicks out and now i my drives are down. Sorry, the Lucy is getting away!!!"
There certainly aren't 'distortion fields' around the nodes, or at least not ones that large, based on the Prophecy jumping in right next to the sol nod, the Carthage at the Knossos, etc. So while that confirms the nodes don't have 'deadzones' around them, that would imply that either the GTVA/GTA/PVN are criminally retarded, or you can only go so far on one drive charge. By your logic, Convoys should NEVER need escort. They should jump into a system, sit at the node with friendly forces until their drives recharge and then happily be on their way to the next node through subspace all the way.
I have poured way to many hours into escort missions that pissed me off, ive gotta believe that they were actually necessary and command wasn't just jerking me around and choosing not to use subspace :P
Additionally, since we're arguing in the BPverse, look at the Carthage's backup drive. It is said that its only strong enough to take them so far, and they end up getting caught at Saturn. Now unless the backup drive is COMPLETELY different in every way from all other drives (which I suppose is possible but I think incredibly unlikely), that implies that its just a scaled down version of a normal drive, made for short distance jumps. But that also implies that all drives have a max distance limit, as i mentioned above
Sorry I'm getting in late on this. I always figured GTA/PVE/GTVA jump drives are kind of like the Shaw-Fujikawa jump drive; they're not very accurate. So even when you make a jump and calculate the coordinates, it's still like throwing horse shoes. You can usually get close, but not quite.
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Shaw-Fujikawa jump drives in Halo have an error range the size of a solar system, and jump drives in FS have an error range of a few kilometers at most. That's quite a difference.
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i accidentally two entire
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Yes, my friend's keyboard sucks. I accidentally the enter key.
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I said "kind of like." Not "exactly like."
Also, I think Lone Knight is right.
It's all about gameplay. Whether it makes sense or not doesn't really matter as long as you have fun while you're playing.
Ninty takes this principle to the extreme.
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There's no actual science behind this, but:
I've always thought that stable jump nodes are relatively stationary. They can drift a bit, probably due to their interaction with local gravitational fields and the variation of position between the two star systems (not to mention any unknown interstellar bodies or dark matter that might be lying in deep space). So in the course of a few hours there might be no noticeable movement--but over several months they might drift as much as dozens of kilometers, mere peanuts for interstellar travel. This would give a reasonable excuse for ships jumping out of position, and having to physically travel to the nearest node.
Regular navigational updates would be uploaded onto FleetNet or some civil network on a regular basis.
As I was writing this, another thought occurred to me--there might be some kind of dangerous interaction if a ship were to jump into real space too near a jump node, especially if the local conditions haven't been evaluated for a long time. Like say, accidentally juming to the next star system--or worse being thrown way off course and into an unknown system. (Or worse.) That alone would make a good reason not to jump too close to a node.
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I always figured jump nodes are gravitationally bound to their stellar system, but they just "point" in the direction of the star they lead to, thus making them stationary.
and I figured jumping at a subspace node was like hopping into a jet stream; it pushes you along to your destination at high speed.