and you know what, everyone is entitled to thier own opinion, and I am going to try to fix my mesh the hard way rather than symetry, then fix the minor uv errors that will occur, while presercing a good part of the uv, and also greyleader you know what, I bake an AO everytime to keep an eye out for errors, so I do know what I am doing, and I know what I need to fix I just messed up one minor thing, and the reason I dont post a wireframe, is not because i am afraid, but rather because I only post them when I need help, as when I am working on the model the first important thing is visuals, then polys, because my first priotity is getting the right appearance to get a model ingame, and its not my modeling skills I am worried about. And I am always willing to ask for help, just ask the guys on the IRC, i proably get annoying with how many times I ask, and thanks you guys for tolerating me. and also its more my texturing skill I am worried about because that is a BIG weakness of mine