[Stryke 9]

I[/i] WIN!!!!

Because unlike either of you two, I am a minor deity. And I say I'm right.

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I bite people.

Left Behind:
 www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/lbmain.html

[QXMX]

In terms of line of sight, it might be impossible for humans to perceive this in subspace since our brains only process information in three dimensions.  

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.....File not found....please enter password

Webmaster of Subspace Zero

Co-Creator, GroundZero
ICQ# 117983680

[Eishtmo]

 

Originally posted by Stryke 9:
I WIN!!!!

Because unlike either of you two, I am a minor deity. And I say I'm right.

And I am the Eternal Eishtmo.  Gods don't live as long as I have.

Of course, it also allows me not to care about such trivial things.

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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.

[Carl]

you guys, my theory was so simple and solved the problems, plus have evidence to back it up. just go with it.

besides, you know shivans have a better knowledge of subspace.

[Nico]

 

Originally posted by Carl:
you guys, my theory was so simple and solved the problems, plus have evidence to back it up. just go with it.

Nah, I prefer mine. for me subspace is just a tunnel. our space is 4 dimensionnal, unlike subspace one. So if you want a connection to be possible, it has to fit with the lowest requirements (just like unreal2 won't with my PC   ).

[Shrike]

Subspace is upperdimensional, so perhaps it doesn't matter your direction when you go in, because from the perspective of subspace, all directions from 'real' space are the same.

[Setekh]

Sounds like the North Pole. Everywhere is South from there.

[QXMX]

A good reading on Einstein's Theory of Relativity might help  


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.....File not found....please enter password

Webmaster of Subspace Zero

Co-Creator, GroundZero
ICQ# 117983680

[Eishtmo]

 

Originally posted by Shrike:
Subspace is upperdimensional,

Like I told you in SB, subspace is a lower dimension, not an upper one.



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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.

[Shrike]

 

Originally posted by Eishtmo:
Like I told you in SB, subspace is a lower dimension, not an upper one.

Well sorry, but if it involves more dimensions than our normal 4, it's upperdimensional (you know, number = >4?   )

[Stryke 9]

How 'bout this? Make everyone unhappy:

Subspace is like another place in between, yes? So the dudes can jump in from where ever, get in formation, and then jump out.

[Stryke 9]

And Einstein has nothing to do with Subspace, because it doesn't really exist. It's just more convenient to the game than the ships actually physically advancing:

[imaginary sequence of FreeSpace without Sibspace]
Command: Look out! We're picking up hostiles on radar!

Alpha 3: Where, Command? I don't see 'em!

Command: Roughly four light-years from your position. Keep an eye out, and rearm i you need to...

[six days later]

Alpha 4: Can we go now, Command

Command: Negative! The Shivans are still coming! Hold your position, it'll only be a few more years!

Alpha 2: Can we at least get lunch?

Command: Are you kidding? A Shivan attack and you want lunch???

 

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Long live Cheez!

Left Behind(son to be Ragnarok Station):
 www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/lbmain.html

[^Graff]

My theory:

Subspace is a parallel universe in which the basic laws of physics apply, but distances between certain points of space are just more compressed.  It is compressed even more in the places where gravity wells exist in OUR universe, so a vessel travelling in subspace can get somewhere faster by riding the "grav waves" where it is more compressed.  

The reason why the tech room says that a subspace drive requires gravity is because outside of a powerful gravity well, distances are compressed so little that it is impossible to get anywhere within the space of a lifetime.  When entering subspace, it doesn't really matter which direction you initially point, because you just have to set an exit waypoint and an autopilot takes care of it.  It is difficult to navigate manually in subspace because the areas of compression are difficult to predict without a computer and grav sensor, but it is possible.

When command tracks a ship's vector in subspace, they are not tracking the vector that the ship took when it entered subspace, but the vector the autopilot took during its first few seconds of flight, until it left the range of the sensor.

All four dimensions exist in subspace, because if there were only three, it would be instantaneous, and the final mission of FS1 proved that time does exist in subspace(Command: You have seven minutes to destroy the five reactors...).

[Eishtmo]

And now, a mathematical definition of subspace:

A subspace is a set of vectors, part of another vector space (in this case R^3).

To be a subspace, it has to:

1) include the identity vector (zero vector),

2) be CLOSED under addition (that is, if two vectors a and b are in it, a+b has to be in it too),

3) be CLOSED under scalar multiplication (so if a vector a is in it, ka has to be in it too).

From Dr. Math.

I know, it makes no sense.  What it is saying is that a subspace is a collection of vectors (basically, length, width, height, time) that is within another set of vectors.  At minimum, subspace is just another part of space with all four dimensions, at its maximum, its one single dimension.  It is not an upper dimension space, that would have more than our four, a subspace cannot have more than four.  Ever.  If it does, its not a subspace.

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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.

[Setekh]

 

Originally posted by Stryke 9:
And Einstein has nothing to do with Subspace, because it doesn't really exist. It's just more convenient to the game

That's not entirely true.

[Nico]

 

Originally posted by Stryke 9:
And Einstein has nothing to do with Subspace, because it doesn't really exist. It's just more convenient to the game than the ships actually physically advancing:

[imaginary sequence of FreeSpace without Sibspace]
Command: Look out! We're picking up hostiles on radar!

Alpha 3: Where, Command? I don't see 'em!

Command: Roughly four light-years from your position. Keep an eye out, and rearm i you need to...

[six days later]

Alpha 4: Can we go now, Command

Command: Negative! The Shivans are still coming! Hold your position, it'll only be a few more years!

Alpha 2: Can we at least get lunch?

Command: Are you kidding? A Shivan attack and you want lunch???

 

You want to see how it would be in real? Go and look Gunbuster, it uses all those time stuff, and it's logical and works great, now shut up.

[Ace]

Sub-space has nothing to do with "riding gravity waves" as mentioned earlier in this thread.

Here are the actual [V] facts on how sub-space within the FreeSpace universe works:

Artificial jumps do not have power requirements to operate outside of a gravity well, the denser the well the more powerful a sub-space jump is.

Natural sub-space nodes exist in regions of space, within FS and FS2 inter-system nodes are the ones used, intra system nodes may exist but are rarely used with the artificial drives.

Artificial and natural drives are seperate devises, the drives fusing these technologies (such as used during the Altair expedition during the Great War) are not cost-effective on fighter craft frames. Capital ships use both the inter system and intra system drives. (natural node and artificial)

Ships when activating the drive vibrate at a frequency which excites a sub-space node, activating it.

Sub-space is N-dimensional.

Each vessel enters it's own sub-space corridor in N-dimensional space. With sub-space tracking ships can enter an existing jump with another vessel.
The pre-existing vessel powers the corridor, and if destroyed in the jump will cause the node to collapse.

Sub-space nodes can be collapsed with high-yield explosions such as a ship loaded bow to stern with Meson warheads, or the power output of five Shivan capital class fusion reactors such as the ones on the Lucifer.

Whether a node is line or sight or not is neglible, no technologies within the FS universe can interdict a vessel within sub-space as it is within it's own corridor and can only be tracked if a vessel observed it's jump into sub-space.

Technologies may be able to interfere with a vessel entering or exiting sub-space, the latter could prove deadly as the ship loses power to maintain the corridor.

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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
 http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/

[Slasher]

Hmmm, that makes a little more sense now.  I couldn't really understand why people were making up these "interdiction cruisers" ala Star Wars for their user-made campaigns when it seemed to me that they blatantly violated the rules of FreeSpace physics.  Not that I'm saying departing from the nature of the FS universe is a bad thing, it just didn't seem appropriate for a MOD that was meant to stick with the original storyline.  

As I see it, the technology to recreate an interdiction effect as seen in Star Wars does not currently exist in FreeSpace (2).  However, there is one thing I'm still curious about: when you enter subspace, are you traveling line-of-sight or not?  Take this example for instance: an Orion enters a jump node in the Beta Aquilae star system destined for Delta S.  Once this single jump is complete, it exits subspace and is now in Delta Serpentis.  Logic dictates (oh no, Slasher said "logic") that a strait line can be drawn between the point where the Orion activated it's subspace drive (in real space) and the point where it reopened the magic door and entered Delta Serpentis (emereging in real aka normal space).  So is it possible that the line that can be drawn between these two jump points (as seen in all those command briefings) is actually where a "subspace corridor" exists?  "Subspace corridor" basically meaning a confined tunnel of, well, subspace, that you cannot travel outside of.  

I've also heard contradicting theories as to whether or not the same laws that apply to intersystem jumps apply to those conducting subspace manuvers from within a system's outer limits.  But I'm beginning to think that IceFire (and anyone else with a similar theory) was correct in saying intersystem jumps are more line-of-sight (see above) while intrasystem jumps aren't as simple a matter as moving from point a to point b.  Here's another example: Alpha 1 is over Sirius III.  He punches in the coordinates for 444.34.23 (just random rubbish) and engages his subspace drive, and a few second later he emerges at 444.34.23.  Seconds later, Beta 1, who is over Sirius VIII, uses the same coordinates to jump to the exact same location.  However, the two fighters originated in totally seperate locations, possibly suggesting that intrasystem jumps don't require any help from intrasystem nodes whatsoever.  Further supporting this theory is the fact that ships don't seem to travel on predetermined routes while in a star system, whereas ships moving from one system to another enter a specific point (a jump node), and exit a specific point (another jump node).  As is obvious while playing FreeSpace 2, intersystem travel is much more restricted in terms of freedom when compared to intrasystem travel.  Unlike in system-to-system jumps, there are practically an unlimited number of ways from getting from point X to point b.  

So, what did I miss?  Probably a lot, huh?  

[Ace]

Actually on the line of sight, from what we've seen the following is more likely:

When you enter a node, you exit facing the same way as you entered in true space at your entry point, but the destination arrival is not effected or altered by your orientation save for your position when exiting.

Ships often move in fomations when jumping for organizational purposes, but it is not nescessary. (this explains why you can jump at odd angles, and doesn't contradict anything we've seen so far in FS)

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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
 http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/

[Slasher]

So do you think that jump nodes act more like teleporters than entrances and exits into and out of the "subspace corridors" I theorized about?  I can see how orientation upon entering subspace would have little or no effect on an intersystem jump because one way or another you'd be entering the same jump node.  However, I can't figure out if you'd be entering the same "subspace corridor" that every other ship might be using.  I doubt it, however, because in the last mission of FreeSpace Command needed to track the Lucifer in subspace in order for the GTA and PVN fighters to launch their attack.  This probably means that if the GTC St. Agustine entered the Vega jump node just a few minutes after the GTC Roanoke did, and neither ship was tracking the other into or inside of subspace, or making an attempt to stay in formation, they wouldn't have so much as a glimpse of each other while traveling in subspace.  So, I think that if there is a subspace corridor (a wormhole like phenomena ala DS9), it is not confined to a single space that every single ship that enters it travels through.  Otherwise, what would be the point in tracking ships into intersystem jump nodes, as you'd simply have to enter the corridor and spot them through sensors or make visual contact?  

Yeah, I know I'm sorta dancing around the original point with more questions.  I've always had a hard time staying on track.

[This message has been edited by Slasher (edited 08-30-2001).]