Author Topic: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi  (Read 103416 times)

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Oh I agree with that sentiment. I also think that the plot is like a rough diamond still needing a lot of cutting and refinement. There is so much goodness in that movie, but it's still in a very drafty shape.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
btw, Jonathan McIntosh made this video (clearly written before TLJ premiered) about how the Jedi sucks, and I can't disagree with a single word in it.



It also points to two things in my mind: One, the story within the prequels is actually a good story, two, it sucks that Lucas didn't get that the Jedi were the bad guys in it and went on to execute a pontentially great story so incredibly poorly.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I liked this film a fair bit (and it left me with a lot to think about) but I have never seen a major pop culture movie where the people who dislike it so clearly, totally do not understand the movie. It's like some sort of forcing function for comprehending stories.

"You just don't understand"

No, the movie is utter bovine excrement.
They raped the lore in ways too horrible to describe, ruined the characters, ruined the atmopshere and introduced a million more plot holes.
And I'm not even a SW fan. I shudder what fans think.
The entire story makes no sense.

Leia Superman? Casino? They are the most obvious since there's no flashy CGI or action to distract you from noticing it, but spend any amount of effort actually thinking about the plot and it all falls apart.

Where the hell does the First Order get the resources for all of it's stuff? Building a Death Star was considered a monumental task at the height of the Empire, when Sidious had the resources of an entire galaxy at his disposal. But somehow the remanants build planet-sized death cannons and mega-ships off screen like it's nothing.
"Let's ram at lightspeed. No one has ever thought of that in the entire history of space warfare!"
Luke simply giving up and living on an island drinking blue milk from alien big-tits?
Yoda destroying old Jedi lore because "Miss perfect Sue already knows it all!"

Good thing I watched it on an empty stomach, since I couldn't suppress a barfing urge trouhg it.

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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Jesus Christ Trashman, I can't even start to wonder how it's like to hate something for so many wrong headed reasons.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
The issue of questioning character motivations such as Luke's, is that then the motivations of everybody are under the loop equally. We only have Finn's word of him being kidnapped if even that in the actual movie, and we all know what happened with the lore expanding books. It doesn't make sense for the First Order to kidnap kids to the army due to obvious motivational or desertion reasons as clearly demonstrated by Finn himself. So it's starting to look like more the First Order either killed Finn's parents for a good reason, or took him under their custody and protection, while the kid didn't realize what's actually going on. What is actually Rey's motivation for helping anyone and not staying away from the whole intergalactic mess? While Luke was dismantled in the story, Rey appears as the unquestionable beacon of light side hope.

It makes even less sense when you consider that the kids were kidnapped at a young age and trained together (with a healthy dose of brainwashing).
The fellow stormtroopers would be the only family Finn would have known.
The idea that he would just suddenly decide to betray them because he saw some guy get shot (and barely reacts to his brothers being shot or him shooting them himself) is bonkers.


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Jesus Christ Trashman, I can't even start to wonder how it's like to hate something for so many wrong headed reasons.

Yeah, something being crap is a wrong reason to not like something.
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Offline The E

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Where the hell does the First Order get the resources for all of it's stuff? Building a Death Star was considered a monumental task at the height of the Empire, when Sidious had the resources of an entire galaxy at his disposal. But somehow the remanants build planet-sized death cannons and mega-ships off screen like it's nothing.

you know, the first nuclear bomb took a monumental engineering and logistical effort to put together.
Nukes 3 through x-thousand? Not so much. There might be an analogy there for you to consider.

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"Let's ram at lightspeed. No one has ever thought of that in the entire history of space warfare!"

Judging by everyone's reaction to Holdo's maneuver as she was turning her Cruiser around, clearly they have. They know what's coming. They try to stop it. But since they don't have any ships in range to actually stop the Cruiser, they can't. So the astonishment here isn't so much about the fact that this tactic exists, it's about Holdo's willingness to use the Rebellion's last remaining capship to employ it in that moment.

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Luke simply giving up and living on an island drinking blue milk from alien big-tits?

Did you, at any point, actually listen to what Luke says in the movie? Or think about what it was he was trying to do?

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Yoda destroying old Jedi lore because "Miss perfect Sue already knows it all!"

The entirety of ancient Jedi lore fits onto half a dozen handwritten volumes. Apparently, there just isn't that much to it, not to mention that both Yoda and Luke seem to think that most of it is actually wrong and misleading.
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Offline zookeeper

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Meh, I didn't like it. Just like TFA, there were lots of good moments and nice things, but overall it was a bit of a disappointment. Too much stuff going on (or so it felt), the casino planet, the awful final scene of random kids, weird and out-of-place inspirational lines everywhere and there weren't even any particularly great action sequences that I recall.

EDIT: And the lightspeed ram. Urgh.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Quote
Yoda destroying old Jedi lore because "Miss perfect Sue already knows it all!"

The entirety of ancient Jedi lore fits onto half a dozen handwritten volumes. Apparently, there just isn't that much to it, not to mention that both Yoda and Luke seem to think that most of it is actually wrong and misleading.

Nevermind that Rey herself stole the ancient books and that's what Yoda actually meant when he said that all that knowledge was with her anyways!

Regarding Yoda, I'd say that Luke has it more correctly than Yoda, but the latter has more experience in his favor, so huh.

Regarding the Lightspeed ramming stuff, this is something that I as a kid always thought about. I mean, the entire concept is bonkers and stupid. FTL ships have more than infinite momentum. To take this concept and try to apply some huge consistent thought about it is just the wrong way to go with it. Just accept that it's a corageous ramming suicide maneuver, because that's the way the movie intends it to be.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I absolutely love how Trashman first says Battuta's wrong when he says that most people who hate this movie completely miss the point, then goes on to thoroughly demonstrate how he completely missed the point.

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I also love it when someone talks about "lore-raping" then claims "I'm not a fan".

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Nah, he's just concerned, you see, for all of us fans, who clearly do not know what is better for the sake of our minds.


Regarding fanboyism, I finally watched RLM's analysis. I think they over did their ****ting on the movie, especially how it's obvious they liked a lot of the scenes. I believe they are just over compensating for their gullible-ish review of Force Awakens, before they realised how less impressive the movie really was. But I do agree with a lot of what they said, I guess I just loved the movie more than they did!

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I liked it. Not great, some humour fell flat and was a bit out of place, but much better than Force Awakens.

Unfortunately though, JJ Abrams is director Episode IX so it will suck without question. The only hope for Episode IX is that JJ Abrams gets fired.


The point was that the guns on the First Order fleet weren't quite in range so they couldn't damage the ship shields faster than they could recharge and the cruiser was fast enough to keep them at a distance.

That makes sense, but it doesn't make sense that the Mon Calamari was quick enough to get out of range but not quick enough to pull further away.  It's like they sped up to get out of range and then slowed down to allow the Cruisers to keep at distance.  Didn't really bother me and could have been explained away but they didn't bother to do so.

Luke simply giving up and living on an island drinking blue milk from alien big-tits?

I dunno the shock of one of your students murdering everyone in your school, after he caught you contemplating murdering him, might be reason enough for a good-hearted person to run and hide out of shame and embarassment.  It makes far more sense that Luke is a bitter old man than it does that Obi wan fondly remembering Anakin after Anakin murdered a bunch of Jedi kids and Obiwan dismembered him.  Though that's a problem with the prequels, not A New Hope.  But yeah "Luke your dad, the guy whose arms and legs I cut off after he murdered little kids? He was a good friend".  Realistically Obi Wan can only be seen to have some sort of mental break, where he's created the fantasy that Anakin and Darth Vader are entirely separate individuals.

 

Offline Det. Bullock

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I liked it. Not great, some humour fell flat and was a bit out of place, but much better than Force Awakens.

Unfortunately though, JJ Abrams is director Episode IX so it will suck without question. The only hope for Episode IX is that JJ Abrams gets fired.


The point was that the guns on the First Order fleet weren't quite in range so they couldn't damage the ship shields faster than they could recharge and the cruiser was fast enough to keep them at a distance.

That makes sense, but it doesn't make sense that the Mon Calamari was quick enough to get out of range but not quick enough to pull further away.  It's like they sped up to get out of range and then slowed down to allow the Cruisers to keep at distance.  Didn't really bother me and could have been explained away but they didn't bother to do so.

Better accelleration?
Remember that in Star Wars space is an ocean and the first order ships appeared to be still when the Raddus turned tail with the rest of the fleet.

Luke simply giving up and living on an island drinking blue milk from alien big-tits?

I dunno the shock of one of your students murdering everyone in your school, after he caught you contemplating murdering him, might be reason enough for a good-hearted person to run and hide out of shame and embarassment.  It makes far more sense that Luke is a bitter old man than it does that Obi wan fondly remembering Anakin after Anakin murdered a bunch of Jedi kids and Obiwan dismembered him.  Though that's a problem with the prequels, not A New Hope.  But yeah "Luke your dad, the guy whose arms and legs I cut off after he murdered little kids? He was a good friend".  Realistically Obi Wan can only be seen to have some sort of mental break, where he's created the fantasy that Anakin and Darth Vader are entirely separate individuals.
Well, Obi Wan had a mission to fulfill (keeping Luke alive and far from the dark side) and didn't really lose his faith in the Jedi teachings.
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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
That makes sense, but it doesn't make sense that the Mon Calamari was quick enough to get out of range but not quick enough to pull further away.  It's like they sped up to get out of range and then slowed down to allow the Cruisers to keep at distance.  Didn't really bother me and could have been explained away but they didn't bother to do so.

Better accelleration?
Remember that in Star Wars space is an ocean and the first order ships appeared to be still when the Raddus turned tail with the rest of the fleet.

The empire officer specifically states that the ships are lighter and "faster".

I would just assume that moving faster would only burn more fuel and if they gained enough distance the empire would simply make a short jump to catch up. So keeping them at arm's length at sublight would give the greatest amount of time to think of other options.

 
Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
The bombers thing, and frankly all the space battles in the modern Star Wars films, was atrocious when good old fashioned dive bombers existed since the original movie (plus the Y-wings were far better designed than these fat B-wings. I'll take ****ty space battles if we get good character writing and light saber fights but the space combat hasn't been there since RotJ.

You know the Tie Bombers drop bombs in pretty much the same manner in Empire Strikes back when they were bombing the asteroid looking for the Falcon.  It's stupid, but it's not new.

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
They were making a conventional bombing runs on a planetoid.  Not an antishipping attack.  Space B17s were dumb,  like Wing Commander U boat sequence dumb.  Heck, the Rebellion was smart enough to build all snubbies. :rolleyes:

I just saw it.  Kinda on the fence.  It certainly had some great set pieces and I still enjoyed the characters.   A lot of glaring dumb logic though.  Not that the old films didn't have their share but it's 2018.  We don't have Arnie hip firing an M60 anymore, we have John Wick.  I just expect better at this point.

In some ways I wish the original characters didn't end up failures, in other ways I wish they had vested further in subverting things.

I dunno I didnt hate it but I didnt walk out being wowed. 
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 06:21:11 pm by StarSlayer »
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
you know, the first nuclear bomb took a monumental engineering and logistical effort to put together.
Nukes 3 through x-thousand? Not so much. There might be an analogy there for you to consider.

The bomb wasn't that difficult to build in terms of work/resoirces, it was difficult to DESIGN (invent).
You can't honestly compare a 2m long bomb with a FTL capable station the size of a moon...or a planet.
You might as well say that a skateboard is equal to an aircraft carrier.
And again..REMNANTS.

Something for you to consider.


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Judging by everyone's reaction to Holdo's maneuver as she was turning her Cruiser around, clearly they have. They know what's coming. They try to stop it. But since they don't have any ships in range to actually stop the Cruiser, they can't. So the astonishment here isn't so much about the fact that this tactic exists, it's about Holdo's willingness to use the Rebellion's last remaining capship to employ it in that moment.

An unstopable tactic that makes giant death stars pointless.
Makes you wonder why the rebellion didn't simply ram small ships into the Star Destroyers at FTL. Very cost-effective tactic in terms of resources.
All the move did was introduce another plot hole.


Quote
Quote
Yoda destroying old Jedi lore because "Miss perfect Sue already knows it all!"

The entirety of ancient Jedi lore fits onto half a dozen handwritten volumes. Apparently, there just isn't that much to it,

Miss perfect Sue already knows it all then.
C'mon, you can't deny Rey is one of the worst characters ever put on TV.


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not to mention that both Yoda and Luke seem to think that most of it is actually wrong and misleading.

Yoda didn't seem to think that way when he trained Luke.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I absolutely love how Trashman first says Battuta's wrong when he says that most people who hate this movie completely miss the point, then goes on to thoroughly demonstrate how he completely missed the point.

"You miss the point because I say so!" - You

Or maybe you missed the point?
Maybe there is no point and you rationalizing in your head, filling the holes someone else made?



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I also love it when someone talks about "lore-raping" then claims "I'm not a fan".

Just because I'm not a fanboy doesn't mean I don't know the lore...
The core of it anyway, didn't dabble much into EU, it was pretty **** (except maybe Thrawn)



Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Vidmaster

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I liked it. Not great, some humour fell flat and was a bit out of place, but much better than Force Awakens.
Unfortunately though, JJ Abrams is director Episode IX so it will suck without question. The only hope for Episode IX is that JJ Abrams gets fired.

Could not agree more. This one worked, although I have no idea how good subsequent watches will be. It reminds me a bit of Moffat's writing on Doctor Who, VERY VERY VERY dependent on twists.
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Offline The E

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Re: *SPOILER THREAD* Star Wars: The Last Jedi
The bomb wasn't that difficult to build in terms of work/resoirces, it was difficult to DESIGN (invent).

Oh? So the Manhattan Project, the massive investment in infrastructure and logistics that allowed the experiments that led to the bomb to actually happen, were what? A smokescreen? I'm not saying that the bomb was easy to design and conceptualize, but actually building, testing and deploying it took a monumental effort that, strangely, did not need to be replicated for subsequent bombs. Even the hydrogen bomb took only a fraction of the resources to develop and build.

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You can't honestly compare a 2m long bomb with a FTL capable station the size of a moon...or a planet.
You might as well say that a skateboard is equal to an aircraft carrier.
And again..REMNANTS.

Something for you to consider.

The Manhattan Project alone employed over 130000 people and cost about 2 billion USD (which, adjusted for inflation, comes out to 70 billion in today's money). So yes, compared to the size of the US economy and workforce at the time? I really can compare a 2m bomb with an FTL capable station the size of a moon.

Also, if we set aside stupid little EU arguments like what you're employing here: Thematically, it doesn't matter how the Empire and the First Order got the ability to pull off hyperstructure engineering. What matters is that they have a lot of power and that they are using it to build giant monuments to their own egos and/or penises.

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An unstopable tactic that makes giant death stars pointless.
Makes you wonder why the rebellion didn't simply ram small ships into the Star Destroyers at FTL. Very cost-effective tactic in terms of resources.
All the move did was introduce another plot hole.

Who knows? I mean, we do know that ramming a 3 kilometer Mon Cal cruiser into the 60km Supremacy .... didn't actually destroy the Supremacy. Disabled it, certainly, definitely caused a lot of damage, but last I checked, it was still in good enough shape to actually launch an invasion force.

The plot hole here exists only in your mind, just like similar objections to certain maneuvers in TFA are only plot holes if you cling to the idea of the Star Wars movies being a factually true and complete account of actual events in an actual universe; Star Wars, for me, has always had a mythological air to it (Hell, even their title card, "A long, long time ago in a Galaxy far away...." sets up a tone that belongs more in the realm of myths and legends rather than facts), and treating these films like war documentaries leads to silly arguments like yours.


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Miss perfect Sue already knows it all then.
C'mon, you can't deny Rey is one of the worst characters ever put on TV.

I actually can. I refer you to the threads about TFA in which I and others will deny it.

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Yoda didn't seem to think that way when he trained Luke.

And then he died. And got to watch what happened. And probably had a good long chat about this whole thing with Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 08:30:43 am by The E »
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns