[Badman]

Hi All,

My name is Craig and I've been playing the Freespace / 2 (and SCP) games and mods for many years - it is an exciting community and has been a pure pleasure to play (... played the Babylon Project to death)

I'm also an old-school fan of the 3000AD Battle Cruiser / Universal Combat games and am an active member of that forum. Derek Smart has matured into a wonderful grumpy wise old man (we'll not that old, same age as me anyway - 40ish) that has not let the industry make him too cynical, and has never stopped evolving the core technologies that go into making a holistic sim --- it is at least worth the attempt!!!

What is required is feedback to a question that Derek has posed ........ Within the fabric of the 3000AD universe, what sort of space / air / ground / naval / trade MMO do gamers really want?

So, I'm reaching out to the other cool sim forums around to try to get some buy-in on idea's etc. I'm really only asking this on this forum and the StarWraith forum to keep it within my favourites at this point.

The SCP is discussed with much respect on the 3000AD forums and the mods etc are often discussed; yes, as competition, but also as a wonderful indie title (well ... completely free is still indie right?)

Can you guys please help out???? If so, just go to http://www.3000ad.com and find the "Galactic Command Online" discussion in the community forums - "and So It Begins!"

[General Battuta]

Oh, boy.  I hope none of the old-timers decide to reactivate their grudge against Mr. Smart.

The SCP is discussed with much respect on the 3000AD forums and the mods etc are often discussed; yes, as competition, but also as a wonderful indie title (well ... completely free is still indie right?)

Technically, you need to own a copy of FreeSpace 2 for the SCP to work, so the SCP itself is hardly competition. But I'm glad things are positive; after the 'Derek Smart Wants to Buy FreeSpace' debacle I thought there would be some kind of awful bilateral hatred.

Anyway, I must say that I'm not a big fan of the MMO. If one did go off, however, I'd suggest steering more towards Freelancer than EVE in terms of flight mechanics; I'd rather have hands-on control than a click-click-click interface.

The ability to command both fighters and warships would be wonderful too.

[Black Wolf]

Really... probably not the best forum to ask for help for Derek Smart. I personally hope his MMO costs him millions and bankrupts him. Hes an arrogant prick, and based on his dealings with us here, I very much doubt he's "matured" into anything (nd if he has, anyone who has to wait until they're 40-ish to mature enough to be allowed on the internet (I wish) probably has some kind of developmental disorder.

Actually, Derek Smart or not, I thought people who register and make one post telling us to go do something completely unrelated to Freespace got deleted as spambots?

[General Battuta]

Oh, let Badman be. He seems like a good guy himself.

[Black Wolf]

Oh, let Badman be. He seems like a good guy himself.

Which is more or less why I didn't lock the thread myself.

[Snail]

Actually, Derek Smart or not, I thought people who register and make one post telling us to go do something completely unrelated to Freespace got deleted as spambots?

He's obviously not a bot. He seems friendly enough. There is no linkspam. The post is in the appropriate subforum. Mostly harmless. IMO.

[kaloonzu]

I had honestly hoped that Battlecruiser/UC would die a painful and silent death in some obscure corner of cyberspace.....alas, even after wasting $20 on UC, I do not yet have veangence.

Badman, I'd look at how X3 works, and make it something like that, but MUCH easier to pick up and learn. Also, more combat would be nice in the UC universe that isn't a complete FUXUP unless you have carrier craft. Furthermore, you would have to make it so you could actually progress in the universe, rather than stagnate for days on one objective/career/system war.

[Black Wolf]

He's obviously not a bot. He seems friendly enough. There is no linkspam. The post is in the appropriate subforum. Mostly harmless. IMO.

I realize he's not a bot, just following a bot's MO.

[Badman]

Yeah, I knew this site would be a somewhat delicate one to approach, but I really love FS / SCP and value the opinion of those that live here.

There have definitely been some .... uhm .... tensions in the past, but personally I don't care, I just get involved in the excitement of a possibly awesome outcome.

Anyway, thanks for not binning my post.

P.S. I own both FS and FS2 ... AND all the old Descents :-)

[Falcon]

I visited 3000 A.D. a few days ago and when I saw that an MMO was in the works it caught my interest. All I want from a space MMO is a good balanced PvP system doesn't require you to grind through so many levels just to stay competitive. Anyways I wish him the best of luck on his endeavor.

[Titan]

Screw levels and grinding entirely. It's a pain in the ass.

I say this as I try to log onto Runes of Magic 

[Colonol Dekker]

Yeah i'd hate to earn a load of stuff then lose it cos i got outspanked by someone who had a months headstart on me. Multi should be one-off skirmishes with stat saving in this genre. Or EVE happens and people lose loads of real life cash.

[Flipside]

Difficult to say, if anything, I'd say that Derek's stuff is more suited to MMO than single player, my concerns about BC were the fact that Derek's ideas were far grander than the systems there were written on could support, which, I think, tended to lead to dissapointment, if you could remove the need for the computer to maintain enough AI to keep the universe vibrant, so it could focus on other matters, he could have a workable formula.

As a man, he's an arrogant prick who insulted the Hard Light Community on two forums and then had the gall to try to claim we started it, but as a game concept, a BC3000AD MMO wouldn't be unworkable.

[MR_T3D]

-I'd say keep stats to a minimum in effect, and keep them simply, say, make it so that it takes about 10hours to gain the arbitrary 'skills' in game for a class, then leave the rest to equipment.
In terms of PvP, I'd like to see system similar to BF2, in that the longer-term players have access to some better stuff, but someone whom has only played a dozen hours can be just as competitive with their equipment.

And MANUAL CONTROL TOGGLE for ships.

[DSmart [3000AD]]

I see the name calling hasn't stopped. For those of you oblivious to the facts, Internet way back machine is your friend.

FACT is, some folks in THIS community started with the insults, name calling etc back when I announced that I was interested in licensing and doing FS3. I responded in kind. Who wouldn't?

Most of you who live in glass houses like to throw stones. Yet when someone drags in a wheelbarrow loaded with graphite boulders and lobs them through your glass ceiling, that person becomes the bad guy and you all start crying foul or reaching for the insults shoulder bag you carry around with a false sense of pride.

...and yet, here we are again.

Remember the Freespace 3 debacle? Well gee, lets see....I've shipped THREE games since then. Echo Squad SE (a space combat sim from 2008), All Aspect Warfare (2009) and Angle Of Attack (2009). Had I gone ahead worked out a license deal with Herve for the FS3 license, you would have been playing a next-gen space combat FS3 game in 2009. But no. What are you playing now in the FS world? Oh, thats right. Mods (some really good ones at that) and some half-baked space combat sims that most of you don't like and which will never aspire to be anything like FS2 or any of the mods. And Eve Online - the glorified spreadsheet in space - even with a healthy 300K subscribers - continues to be the leading space combat game. So who ended up losing? Not me, I can tell you that. I'm still making games.

Lets fast-forward.

Having shipped my two new games, I have resumed working on my MMO because I believe that my game world calls for it. And given my install base, would do well.

How many of you are happy with Eve Online (an excellent game in its own right, but a spreadsheet in space is NOT a space combat sim)?

How many of you have been waiting for the Jumpgate Evolution Beta for over TWO YEARS now? And how many of you still have hopes that it will be any good, given the information that has been coming out of Netdevil?

How many of you think that Black Prophecy will ever see the light of day? Especially given the current industry climate and the fact that they're still out looking for a publisher - and thus funding?

How many of you are waiting in the rafters to fork out your credit card to play Star Trek Online in three months? Go ahead, raise your hand.

Go ahead and think about those questions for a minute. I'll wait.

Done? Good.

I have put out a "Request for comments" so that most of you who have been wanting an engaging and worthy space+planetary combat MMO, can put in your own 2c and help with the outcome. I announced my Galactic Command Online MMO just two weeks ago with an extensive FAQ containing every conceivable question any space combat fan could possibly have.

And as you all know, if anyone is going to do it, then its going to be me because I don't rely on publishers to chart my course.

You have a chance to help out with a game that you might like to play and what do you do? You shoot the messenger [Badman]?

Considering that there are other space combat sim communities out there, what makes some of you think that behaving this way is going to yield any good outcome short of yet another Derek Smart bashing? You're not hurting me in any way, shape or form. I'm still twenty years and fourteen games in - and in an industry where so many have fallen. So obviously I'm not going anywhere.

 Anyway, for those of you remotely interested, you know where to go. Thats it - I'm done.

[General Battuta]

Good to hear from you, Derek.

I'm sure the tone will stay pretty civil. We've already got some on-topic feedback coming in, and, hey, three flamey posts isn't bad.

Anyway, as this is largely a FreeSpace fansite, I'm sure that everyone agrees that the state of the space sim market isn't great right now. Although your games haven't clicked for me, you've got a successful business model and a good niche, so keep it up.

While I don't think the FreeSpace universe was right for you (your games are far, far more complex than the relatively simple arcade-shooter model FreeSpace uses), and the real prerequisite for an FS3 is the use of the :V: writing staff, I'm happy to see you keep making games. And I followed your comments on RockPaperShotgun with interest and appreciation.

[NGTM-1R]

Manual control is only valid if it plays some kind of role. There's a very good reason EVE doesn't have it: it wouldn't matter. All ships have a 360 field of fire on all their guns/launchers/mining tools. Orbiting the target is, admittedly, still kind of crappy (ask anyone who's run into asteroids via the auto-orbit feature when it didn't have to take that particular plane) but that, manual and fairly simple even with EVE's interface slashing passes, and holding a range are basically the only manuvers of any meaningful value when your only restrictions on engagement are range and turrets' ability to track the target's relative motion.

BC/UC didn't really feature it for your capitals for the same reason.

EDIT: Jesus christ on a ****stick. For those interested in Derek's overall history, I recommend Flame War Follies.

[Snail]

I feel privileged to have witnessed this historic moment.

[DSmart [3000AD]]

Thanks General. Lets see how long it lasts.

The reason we are reaching out to all the space communities is simple. The genre is going to remain in a niche category and with half-baked attempts. So far, the likes of Taikodom are what passes for space combat MMO these days. Everything coming down the pipeline falls short in some form or another.

I can 100% guarantee you that given the number of people who have - and are quitting - Eve Online, and those who already know that JGE is only going to be a short step from the [failed] JGC, if a decent space combat MMO comes along and which captures the glory that all sides want - INCLUDING planetary aspects - we all win. Whats not to like?

I'm not developing some half-baked space combat game to cater to some investor (I have none) or publisher (don't have/need one). I'm building an MMO based on pre-existing properties which - believe it or not - continue to do well for me. However, this time around, I want to make the game more accessible so that we all win - regardless of whether or not you are in a fighter or a cap ship. Throw in first person support and planets - whats not to like?

[Herra Tohtori]

Personally, I'd love something like Combat Orbiter with a wide range of airplanes for atmospheric flight and as required, seamless transition to orbital combat as well.

Then I consider the ridiculous difficulty level it would pose for most people (who would think that the best way to reach a target ahead of your orbit would be to slow down, which moves you to lower and therefore faster orbit and lets you catch up to the target) and I realize no one will ever make that sort of game commercially.

Still, it could work if missions were cleverly designed, and if it offered a cleverly designed autopilot that would deliver you on target orbit. In fact, Orbiter's Delta Glider IV does offer a computer that does exactly that but it's sort of fiddly as you need to be clicking the flight computer's buttons on the panel to load up program codes (which you need to read from a PDF guide), and then there's the matter of time constraints - one orbit around earth takes 90 minutes at low altitudes, no one's going to really want to play one mission that long in multiplayer.

However, if the game engine could run this kind of environment seamlessly in MMO gameplay, then it gets interesting as it would be possible to have atmospheric combat missions, orbital combat, ground attacks and capital ship engagements on orbit at the same time. It would require a lot of management from teams to do effectively, and it would also require a lot of dedicated players, but it would be pretty awesome if done right.


Regarding the alleged hostility between Mr. Smart and FS2 community, I'm not really impressed by people maintaining it (from either sides of the conflict). Seriously, it's been years since that debacle. Just let it rest in piece...