Author Topic: PCS2 global/local transforms  (Read 8123 times)

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Offline Vasudan Admiral

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Re: PCS2 global/local transforms
Haha, I think there might need to be an additional layer to the interface to make it usable for normal people man. ;)
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Offline Spicious

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Re: PCS2 global/local transforms
The options that aren't matrix are supposed to be that easier layer.

Is the rotation one better now?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 11:48:15 pm by Spicious »

 

Offline Vasudan Admiral

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Re: PCS2 global/local transforms
What changed since the last one? I can't see anything different?

Basically what I'm saying is that in its current form, almost no one will have a clue how to use it, regardless of how detailed any documentation is. From a user standpoint, having to do it in matrix form just doesn't make any sense.

So, what I'd suggest is changing it to something like one of these:

OK: A dialogue with 3 fields for rotation (in degrees) about the X, Y and Z axes. This would be ok for simple rotation tasks but tedious for anything more.

Best: In addition to the three-field numerical system, have a system where you select an axis you want to rotate it around (essentially radio buttons of X, Y, Z or user-defined vector) from the top menu, and then shift+click&drag lets you rotate the object around that axis in the 3d window. This system lets users very quickly define any rotation they want because of the real-time feedback, and lets them experiment a bit too.

(Oh and also, any operation needs to be undoable plz! :) )
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Offline Spicious

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Re: PCS2 global/local transforms
What changed since the last one? I can't see anything different?
Labels

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Basically what I'm saying is that in its current form, almost no one will have a clue how to use it, regardless of how detailed any documentation is. From a user standpoint, having to do it in matrix form just doesn't make any sense.
That's why the other options are there now. If a transform cannot be expressed as a sequence of scales (which includes flips with nothing ending up inside out), rotates and translates then it's time to learn some linear algebra.

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So, what I'd suggest is changing it to something like one of these:

OK: A dialogue with 3 fields for rotation (in degrees) about the X, Y and Z axes. This would be ok for simple rotation tasks but tedious for anything more.
Probably doable without too much effort. Most likely to just be the current rotate option + radio buttons for the standard axes.

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Best: In addition to the three-field numerical system, have a system where you select an axis you want to rotate it around (essentially radio buttons of X, Y, Z or user-defined vector) from the top menu, and then shift+click&drag lets you rotate the object around that axis in the 3d window. This system lets users very quickly define any rotation they want because of the real-time feedback, and lets them experiment a bit too.
Sounds painful...

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(Oh and also, any operation needs to be undoable plz! :) )
Not possible for anything that affects other objects without a rework of the undo system. We'll see...
Any sensible transform should be invertible anyway.

 

Offline Vasudan Admiral

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Re: PCS2 global/local transforms
I can't see any labels sorry. (the version in your sig was last modified on the 27th)

That's why the other options are there now. If a transform cannot be expressed as a sequence of scales (which includes flips with nothing ending up inside out), rotates and translates then it's time to learn some linear algebra.
Not quite sure what you mean here. Like, yeah sure any transform can be expressed that way but that's got nothing to do with the usability of the feature for the target users.

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Probably doable without too much effort. Most likely to just be the current rotate option + radio buttons for the standard axes.
That would be cool enough for now. :)

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Sounds painful...
I was hoping it wouldn't be, but oh well. :\
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Offline Spicious

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Re: PCS2 global/local transforms
I can't see any labels sorry. (the version in your sig was last modified on the 27th)
You're probably getting a cached version.

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I was hoping it wouldn't be, but oh well. :\
On second thought it probably definitely isn't. Probably painful to use without being able to undo though. Getting undo working with transforms is rather non-trivial, but undo needs fixing in general anyway; try deleting a subobject and undoing to see why.

Something should be ready to try shortly.

Edit: It's ready. Hold down alt and:
  • left click to translate;
  • right click to rotate;
  • scroll your mouse wheel to rescale.
The movement constraints in the toolbar apply.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 04:21:53 am by Spicious »

 

Offline Vasudan Admiral

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Re: PCS2 global/local transforms
!!!!!!
:eek:

Dude! Brilliant! :D
Seriously that's heaps smoother and faster than the systems I was thinking of.

(And frighteningly quick too - massive well done!)  :yes:
Get the 2014 Media VPs and report any bugs you find in them to the FSU Mantis so that we may squish them. || Blender to POF model conversion guide
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Offline Spicious

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Re: PCS2 global/local transforms
(And frighteningly quick too - massive well done!)  :yes:
That's how a nice-ish design helps. Most of the work for this was already done.

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Probably doable without too much effort. Most likely to just be the current rotate option + radio buttons for the standard axes.
That would be cool enough for now. :)
This is done now, and for scaling too.

 

Offline Vasudan Admiral

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Re: PCS2 global/local transforms
Wow! Again! :eek:
And it has the custom axis vector option too! Brilliant!
Unstoppable man.  :cool: :yes:

Also I reckon this has opened up a TON of possibilities for fredders or other people who want to change models without learning to use a 3d app and go through the rigmarole of learning to convert back and forth.

Ie, if a fredder suddenly finds they need a freighter with say, a radar and a few extra guns for a particular mission, they can do it in a few minutes! :)
Get the 2014 Media VPs and report any bugs you find in them to the FSU Mantis so that we may squish them. || Blender to POF model conversion guide
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Offline Spicious

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Re: PCS2 global/local transforms
There's still plenty to do:
  • options for transform origin, most likely just:
    • centre of the current thing or centroid if there are multiple things
    • centre of its parent or (0,0,0)
  • subobject rotation axes - are arbitrary rotation axes ever coming?
  • transforming subobject property fields
    • transforming/adding fvec/uvec
    • what to do with detail boxes
  • undo

I welcome suggestions on how to deal with some of these issues.

 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Re: PCS2 global/local transforms
Just got a crash with this build.  All I did was load a .dae, calculate moi, a global import, changed eyepoint and glow point parents, and do a autogen on paths.  I've tried it 2 more times and no luck reproducing.  The crash happened when exiting PCS2. 

That brings me to my next request.  Have autogen generate paths for subobject subsystems not just special point ones. 
No-one ever listens to Zathras. Quite mad, they say. It is good that Zathras does not mind. He's even grown to like it. Oh yes. -Zathras

 

Offline Spicious

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Re: PCS2 global/local transforms
Just got a crash with this build.  All I did was load a .dae, calculate moi, a global import, changed eyepoint and glow point parents, and do a autogen on paths.  I've tried it 2 more times and no luck reproducing.  The crash happened when exiting PCS2. 
I've noticed this happening sometimes; I'm not sure why yet.

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That brings me to my next request.  Have autogen generate paths for subobject subsystems not just special point ones. 
That's not how the system works, but this one's pretty trivial so it's done.

 

Offline Fury

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Re: PCS2 global/local transforms
These new PCS2 builds have a little issue on Win7.

Whenever I try to select new pcs2.exe to open a pof file with, Win7 won't display the new exe in recommended programs list at all. See picture. Pcs2-insignia.exe is the build from July 29th with insignia support. Pcs2.exe is an old build from February 2008.

When I deleted both of those older exes, with only new exe with transform support remaining, Win7 decided to open pofs in aniview for whatever reason, that's why it too is now displayed in the screenshot's recommended programs. I can only open pofs in new pcs2 exes if I first open the application and use open file dialog from there. It's annoyingly slow.

I wonder if others have noticed this on Win7 or if I'm the only one?

[attachment deleted by admin]

 

Offline Spicious

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Re: PCS2 global/local transforms
I haven't noticed this, but I usually replace the old version with the new.