Author Topic: The problem of Tebuchets  (Read 6076 times)

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Offline Iain Baker

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Re: The problem of Tebuchets
If all missiles could be intercepted then saturation attacks might be the solution to getting through a cap ship's defenses, combined with decoys, radar jamming etc. Pretty much what happens in the real world today.
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Re: The problem of Tebuchets
If all missiles could be intercepted then saturation attacks might be the solution to getting through a cap ship's defenses, combined with decoys, radar jamming etc. Pretty much what happens in the real world today.

This guy disagrees:
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Re: The problem of Tebuchets
Trebuchets are not that hard for a player to avoid in most ships.

Shivans view most other species the way we view infectious diseases. They think they are doing good by curing the universe of them. After all, no one mourns the fate of smallpox.

The Final War For The Multiverse

 
Re: The problem of Tebuchets
If all missiles could be intercepted then saturation attacks might be the solution to getting through a cap ship's defenses, combined with decoys, radar jamming etc. Pretty much what happens in the real world today.

You would have to mount beams on all turrets. :D

 

Offline Iain Baker

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Re: The problem of Tebuchets
If all missiles could be intercepted then saturation attacks might be the solution to getting through a cap ship's defenses, combined with decoys, radar jamming etc. Pretty much what happens in the real world today.

You would have to mount beams on all turrets. :D

You say that like its a bad thing  :D 

Theoretically you could create a fast firing low power AAA beam for this. Too weak to be of much threat to fighters and bombers, but great at taking out missiles and bombs. Or, you could create a CWIS type turret to achieve the same. Very high RoF, very high projectile velocity, but low damage per shot.

Also anti-missiles. I have had some success using harpoons in single fire mode to shoot down bombs. You could imagine a fast-targeting, fast moving and multi-locking swarm missile would be useful for taking out multiple warheads. These could be mounted both on interceptors and the cap ships themselves. Again, nerf their power against fighters and bombers for balance reasons.

It would be cool if the CWIS, flack and anti-missiles were ammo-limited, and the 'anti-missileAAA' beams RoF has to be scaled back after heavy use due to energy draw and thermal build up. At the start of an engagement the amAAA, CWIS, Flack and anti-missile screen would be almost impenetrable, but as the munitions start to run out the cap ship becomes more vulnerable until it has only the AAA beams are left. These too then start to become less effective as their RoF has to be lowered.

This would make Shivan style multiple bomber waves a viable tactic. The first waves would be expended to use up the defenders munitions, the later waves would then go in for the kill. This would make for an interesting escort mission.

Waves 1-3: Ha that was easy, my cap ship has 'nary a scratch!  :cool: Waves 4-6: Ok, this is getting a bit tricky, my cap ship is getting a little beat up  :blah: Waves 7-8: Oh crap, my cap ship is getting wrecked  :shaking: Wave 9: Noooooo, my cap ship got blown up  :eek: :(
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Offline Iain Baker

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Re: The problem of Tebuchets
If all missiles could be intercepted then saturation attacks might be the solution to getting through a cap ship's defenses, combined with decoys, radar jamming etc. Pretty much what happens in the real world today.

This guy disagrees:



Touché  :nod: A stealth torpedo would make for a great new 'wonder weapon' in game, specifically designed to quickly penetrate a cap ship's defences even when they are operating at 100% efficiency (see above). Using one would be awesome, defending a cap ship against one would be nightmare inducing :-)
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Re: The problem of Tebuchets
Or you use cruise missiles - fighter sized drones with shields, a big warhead and subspace drive. That's my personal favourite.

 

Offline Iain Baker

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Re: The problem of Tebuchets
Or you use cruise missiles - fighter sized drones with shields, a big warhead and subspace drive. That's my personal favourite.

Those too :-)

That could fit well with the above actually.

Side A fields stealth missiles.

Side B then creates enhanced sensors, AWACs etc. to make them targetable.

Side A, realising their stealth edge has been lost, but also realising side A's defences are geared towards defeating small and relatively fragile warheads, decides to use a brute force approach instead. They then field shielded and armoured kamikaze drones with big warheads. Side A's defences have no trouble targeting and hitting the kamikaze drones, but are not able to destroy enough of them quickly enough before they impact. Considering the drone's mass and velocity, even the wreckage hitting the cap ship after the drone has been destroyed would be pretty damaging in of itself.

Side A then gears its defences towards harder hitting, but lower RoF point defences. This is effective against the drones, but is less effective against multiple smaller warheads.

Side B goes back to saturation small warhead tactics.

etc. etc.
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Re: The problem of Tebuchets
Then side C comes and opens warp holes with SSMs... inside side A and B. :D

 

Offline Iain Baker

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Re: The problem of Tebuchets
Then side C comes and opens warp holes with SSMs... inside side A and B. :D

 :lol:
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Offline PIe

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Re: The problem of Tebuchets
Touché  :nod: A stealth torpedo would make for a great new 'wonder weapon' in game, specifically designed to quickly penetrate a cap ship's defences even when they are operating at 100% efficiency (see above). Using one would be awesome, defending a cap ship against one would be nightmare inducing :-)
WCS had those.  Obviously, they decloaked at intervals so you could shoot them down, otherwise they would be unbeatable.  Yes those missions were very tense.
[6:23 PM] PIe: why do I have the feeling that I shouldn't be able to give orders to 22nd armored hq
[6:24 PM] Axem: 22nd armored hq, i order you to get me a cup of coffee
[6:24 PM] PIe: and donuts
[6:24 PM] PIe: BECAUSE THIS IS THE GTVA POLICE
[6:25 PM] Axem: :O
[6:25 PM] Axem: am i under arrest
[6:26 PM] [`_`]/: no, just please step out of the myrmidon
[6:26 PM] [`_`]/: you have so much to fred for

[9:50 PM] Sottises: wait did you do vassago's verge?
[9:50 PM] Sottises: .. dirge?
[9:50 PM] Axem: yes
[9:50 PM] Sottises: ohh
[9:50 PM] Sottises: well I have that and JAD too
[9:50 PM] Axem: :)
[9:50 PM] Sottises: what a contrast of themes lmao
[9:50 PM] Axem: isnt it
[9:51 PM] Axem: super grimdark thriller about unknowable alien intelligence and over the top colorful action about friendship
[9:51 PM] PIe: jad is grimdark???
[9:51 PM] Axem: :skull:

 

Offline Iain Baker

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Re: The problem of Tebuchets
Skipper torpedoes?
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Offline PIe

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Re: The problem of Tebuchets
I forget what they were called but that sounds right.
[6:23 PM] PIe: why do I have the feeling that I shouldn't be able to give orders to 22nd armored hq
[6:24 PM] Axem: 22nd armored hq, i order you to get me a cup of coffee
[6:24 PM] PIe: and donuts
[6:24 PM] PIe: BECAUSE THIS IS THE GTVA POLICE
[6:25 PM] Axem: :O
[6:25 PM] Axem: am i under arrest
[6:26 PM] [`_`]/: no, just please step out of the myrmidon
[6:26 PM] [`_`]/: you have so much to fred for

[9:50 PM] Sottises: wait did you do vassago's verge?
[9:50 PM] Sottises: .. dirge?
[9:50 PM] Axem: yes
[9:50 PM] Sottises: ohh
[9:50 PM] Sottises: well I have that and JAD too
[9:50 PM] Axem: :)
[9:50 PM] Sottises: what a contrast of themes lmao
[9:50 PM] Axem: isnt it
[9:51 PM] Axem: super grimdark thriller about unknowable alien intelligence and over the top colorful action about friendship
[9:51 PM] PIe: jad is grimdark???
[9:51 PM] Axem: :skull:

 
Re: The problem of Tebuchets
Skipper torpedoes?
Yup, and those were arguably even worse in WC3's archaïc flight model.

 
Re: The problem of Tebuchets
Touché  :nod: A stealth torpedo would make for a great new 'wonder weapon' in game, specifically designed to quickly penetrate a cap ship's defences even when they are operating at 100% efficiency (see above). Using one would be awesome, defending a cap ship against one would be nightmare inducing :-)
Y'know after reading that...
I now envision the LRASM dropping a 1000 lb mini-torpedo some 2-3 km from the target.

This is actually technically very doable.


Then side C comes and opens warp holes with SSMs... inside side A and B. :D
Is there any canon game mechanic or story element that allows or prevents such things?
I don't think such cases were ever mentioned.
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Re: The problem of Tebuchets
Then side C comes and opens warp holes with SSMs... inside side A and B. :D
Is there any canon game mechanic or story element that allows or prevents such things?
I don't think such cases were ever mentioned.


I don't know- don't think so. Of course you can manipulate where things arrive on story purpose (compare Psamtik near Knossos and Iceni near Knossos had different outcomes), and possibly there's some kind of rule that you can't jump too close to node (Elseway, escort-capship-to-node missions would be pointless). But if you remember the mission where you were supposed to destroy the Iceni, one of the pilots complained that Command had Bosch escape on purpose although they were only a couple kilometers off. Also, Command had planned to attack the Sathanas rear in the nebula with 3 destroyers IIRC, so they must be able to put 3 of them into position without
a- having them in front of the Sath
b- being too far off to be able to use their beams
c- having them crash into each other
d- crash into the Sath

You'd probably require some luck to hit some point inside something the size a Sathanas though.

 

Offline Mito [PL]

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Re: The problem of Tebuchets
I think Into The Depths Of Hell had a missile that would open up a subspace window when it hits the target, dealing lotsa damage.

Also, if we decided to abandon the old V's approach to ship weaponry and warfare, we would definitely have something much more interesting. Capships would have very fast low-range warhead picking turrets, several powerful main cannons, swarm anti-cap torpedo launchers with additional countermeasures against enemy point defences... Maybe new multilock features could be used on turrets, this way we could use a single turret to launch a swarm of tiny missiles designed to intercept enemy projectiles and/or go for fighters.
How do you kill a hydra?

You starve it to death.

 

Offline Iain Baker

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Re: The problem of Tebuchets
Then side C comes and opens warp holes with SSMs... inside side A and B. :D
Is there any canon game mechanic or story element that allows or prevents such things?
I don't think such cases were ever mentioned.


I don't know- don't think so. Of course you can manipulate where things arrive on story purpose (compare Psamtik near Knossos and Iceni near Knossos had different outcomes), and possibly there's some kind of rule that you can't jump too close to node (Elseway, escort-capship-to-node missions would be pointless). But if you remember the mission where you were supposed to destroy the Iceni, one of the pilots complained that Command had Bosch escape on purpose although they were only a couple kilometers off. Also, Command had planned to attack the Sathanas rear in the nebula with 3 destroyers IIRC, so they must be able to put 3 of them into position without
a- having them in front of the Sath
b- being too far off to be able to use their beams
c- having them crash into each other
d- crash into the Sath

You'd probably require some luck to hit some point inside something the size a Sathanas though.

Luck - or something on the inside which can be locked on to  ;7 Looks like General Battuta has already thought of this http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/dickinson_12_15/
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Offline Woolie Wool

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Re: The problem of Tebuchets
IMO one way to balance Trebuchets would be to make them semi-active missiles like the Sparrow rather than fire-and-forget--instead of just lobbing them and moving on to something else, you would have to keep the target within a circle in the middle of the HUD for the missile to track.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

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Re: The problem of Tebuchets
Then side C comes and opens warp holes with SSMs... inside side A and B. :D
Is there any canon game mechanic or story element that allows or prevents such things?
I don't think such cases were ever mentioned.


I don't know- don't think so. Of course you can manipulate where things arrive on story purpose (compare Psamtik near Knossos and Iceni near Knossos had different outcomes), and possibly there's some kind of rule that you can't jump too close to node (Elseway, escort-capship-to-node missions would be pointless). But if you remember the mission where you were supposed to destroy the Iceni, one of the pilots complained that Command had Bosch escape on purpose although they were only a couple kilometers off. Also, Command had planned to attack the Sathanas rear in the nebula with 3 destroyers IIRC, so they must be able to put 3 of them into position without
a- having them in front of the Sath
b- being too far off to be able to use their beams
c- having them crash into each other
d- crash into the Sath

You'd probably require some luck to hit some point inside something the size a Sathanas though.

You only need precision of several km's to pull that off y'know.

If ships are too far, they can always maneuver into position, IIRC there were quite a few escort missions where the friendly cruiser, corvette or destroyer had to close the distance a bit, not to mention fighters always showing up at the edge of a battlefield and bombers having to go a couple km to get into range of their targets.

I'd say that there is limited precision outside of subspace nodes as to where someone shows up, and subspace missiles warping in inside their target is impossible...


IMO one way to balance Trebuchets would be to make them semi-active missiles like the Sparrow rather than fire-and-forget--instead of just lobbing them and moving on to something else, you would have to keep the target within a circle in the middle of the HUD for the missile to track.
Well the Phoenix (the AIM-54, not the FS 1 Phoenix V) had to be guided to its target for quite a distance before its own radar could actively see it.
Same with AIM-120 and all other missiles that are active radar - they need to have the target illuminated for a while to get to the specific one a pilot wants to shoot at.

They are fire and forget, but if not guided to the target using the airplane's more powerful radar, they'll use only inertial guidance and then will lock on the first thing they manage to detect on their own.
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