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Into the Dark Waters - Fleets Composition

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Su-tehp:
I'll admit, when I first began editing Exile, I did have a problem with the idea of both the ORS and EFN having such large fleets. But that was tempered by the notion (and I think it was canonically mentioned somewhere in FS2) that the Sol system alone held a very large chunk of the GTA's economic base, so it wasn't too far-fetched for the Sol system to have fleets of Exile's stated sizes.

Not to mention that the Sol system's large population (several dozen billion or so) as of 2367 is not at all far-fetched since Earth's population was just over 3.8 billion when I was born in 1972 and has risen to just over twice that in only 48 years. Just think how much larger the human population would be 347 years from now in 2367 with an interstellar civilization capable of moving millions or billions of people across solar systems. Hell, a huge chunk of those billions would likely move to Mars, especially if it was terraformed to be more Earthlike with a breathable atmosphere (as Mars is in Exile's continuity; see The Martian War). Nyct's point about asteroid mining being a massive economic treasure trove also stands.

As for Nyct's notion of the Shivans' juggernaut fleet being expendable canon fodder, that makes sense as well. Seeing half of the juggernaut fleet willingly consign themselves to death-by-supernova in the Endgame cutscene certainly seems to heavily imply that the Shivans don't seem to value their own lives as much as we humans do ours. Or at the very least, the Shivans, being insectoid and/or partly hive-minded, don't have a problem with performing massive mass heroic sacrifices if it benefits the Shivan species/race/civilization as a whole. Nothing is known about Shivan civilization, but it's not outside the realm of possibility that their race could be hundreds of thousands of years old and their total population could be spread out over multiple galaxies and numbering in the trillions, if not in the quadrillions. If so, then it would be no surprise at all that the Shivans would have a humongous We Have Reserves attitude towards any hostile military encounter.

Mobius:
One of the limits to the size and capabilities of FreeSpace factions and their respective fleets may be driven by the discovery of subspace, which occurred very late compared to the first major colonization efforts within the Sol system. Subspace has in fact been discovered only a few years prior to the T-V War, therefore most of the Sol colonization process occurred by "regular" means for centuries (I'm assuming a 2050-2310 timespan here). If anything this demonstrates how the Terrans left in Sol after 2335 were, clearly, the vast majority of the Terran population at the time. The colonies which got cut off almost certainly had more room for exponential growth due to the presence of entire colonizable words, but they'd still be a minority even after a couple of generations.

Speaking of the Sathanas fleets, if they're expendable, imagine how truly massive the whole Shivan fleet is. The most significant and documented Shivan losses ever seen were the Sathanes which lost power as Capella went supernova, which combined, accounted more than any other loss inflicted to Shivan fleets. Yet still, that was a major GTVA loss.

Su-tehp:
I’m at work so I have to be brief. But it just occurred to me to ask just how much faster the Colossus would have been built if Sol’s economy had still been available to the rest of the GTVA after the Great War.

More later, after I get back from work and finish celebrating Biden’s win.


--- Quote from: Mobius on November 07, 2020, 03:45:09 am ---One of the limits to the size and capabilities of FreeSpace factions and their respective fleets may be driven by the discovery of subspace, which occurred very late compared to the first major colonization efforts within the Sol system. Subspace has in fact been discovered only a few years prior to the T-V War, therefore most of the Sol colonization process occurred by "regular" means for centuries (I'm assuming a 2050-2310 timespan here). If anything this demonstrates how the Terrans left in Sol after 2335 were, clearly, the vast majority of the Terran population at the time. The colonies which got cut off almost certainly had more room for exponential growth due to the presence of entire colonizable words, but they'd still be a minority even after a couple of generations.

--- End quote ---

Subspace was discovered only shortly before the T-V War? I don't doubt you, Mobius, but can you point me to where this is confirmed in canon? I expect it's likely in the Subspace Techroom entry but I don't remember reading this. Can you show me the quote?


--- Quote from: Mobius on November 07, 2020, 03:45:09 am ---Speaking of the Sathanas fleets, if they're expendable, imagine how truly massive the whole Shivan fleet is. The most significant and documented Shivan losses ever seen were the Sathanes which lost power as Capella went supernova, which combined, accounted more than any other loss inflicted to Shivan fleets. Yet still, that was a major GTVA loss.

--- End quote ---

Yeah, the Capella supernova is a huge case of We Win Because You Didn't. If the Shivans' resources are (for all intents and purposes) nigh-infinite, then losing several dozen Sathanas juggernauts means nothing to them if they cripple most of the GTVA fleet.

Mobius:
The precise moment the Terrans discovered subspace is not known, but it must be only a few decades - at most - prior to FS1. There's one entry in the FreeSpace Bible that somehow implies a discovery in the mid 2550s, but discovering something is clearly not the same as exploiting it. One modern day example is fusion reactors: we have them, they're being developed, but we're not quite to the point of mass producing energy from them.

It's therefore safe to assume, and the FS Wiki specifies that too, that a significant chunk of Sol's colonization occurred by conventional means of travel prior to the discovery of subspace.

Su-tehp:

--- Quote from: Mobius on November 10, 2020, 08:51:37 am ---The precise moment the Terrans discovered subspace is not known, but it must be only a few decades - at most - prior to FS1. There's one entry in the FreeSpace Bible that somehow implies a discovery in the mid 2550s, but discovering something is clearly not the same as exploiting it. One modern day example is fusion reactors: we have them, they're being developed, but we're not quite to the point of mass producing energy from them.

It's therefore safe to assume, and the FS Wiki specifies that too, that a significant chunk of Sol's colonization occurred by conventional means of travel prior to the discovery of subspace.

--- End quote ---

That makes a great deal of sense in hindsight, actually. (I think) I remember Capella being mentioned as one of the most developed, prosperous, and populous of the Terran colonies. And yet its population was mentioned in FS2 as only being about 200 million+ people, which is less than 2/3 of the current population of the entire United States, to say nothing of the fact that it's also only 1/37.5 of the world's current total population of 7.5 billion (did I calculate that right?). That's a pretty small colony compared to present-day Earth. If (practical) subspace travel is such a relatively recent invention in FS1 and FS2, then it makes sense that Capella (as well as the other Terran colonies) would have such relatively small planetary populations since they didn't have a lot of time to make more babies.

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