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Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: DefCynodont119 on April 25, 2017, 05:08:48 am

Title: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: DefCynodont119 on April 25, 2017, 05:08:48 am
In the same vain as the "Would Severanti's strategy eventually have worked?" thread, I wonder: how would the GTVA react once they found out Earth got hit with a rock 14-km in size? And yes, I measured it in FRED
(By comparison, the Chicxulub impactor had an estimated diameter of 10-km) Yikes Macduff, you really outdid yourself.



Steele already got flamed by high command for "Underestimating" the GEFs, when the Vasuden convoy was "Destroyed by Gain Effort forces"
So he might get everything short of execution for letting Earth drop of the map, His fault or not.


The public's opinion on the matter would be, uh. . . Bad.  If the UEF-GTVA war put the Tevs on shaky ground with each other before. . . This disaster could set the GTVA on fire.


How would it affect MORPHEUS? With the Elders gone that's a +1. and judging by the original plan I know they accounted for the loss of at least a few major cities, but, the whole planet?
(Remember, this rock is almost certainty bigger then the one that took out the non-avian dinosaurs, There won't be much left)


And if somehow there is anything left, talk about a refugee crisis. Granted, the Vasuda Prime exodus was handed mostly well, but still.


TL;DR: It's hard to fight over who owns earth if earth is uninhabitable.



So, those are my ideas, what do you think?
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Snarks on April 26, 2017, 09:18:49 am
It would be a huge blow to the Terrans, as the entire point of their war would have been lost. Sure, the non-Earth colonies would probably amount to one or even two populated GTVA system's worth of resources/production/population, but losing Earth would be like losing one half of the GTVA's worth of resources/production/population. It would be a minor victory for the Terrans, as they would probably get something out of it. But it would also be like getting a consolation prize.

On a different note, I thought the Gef asteroid subplot felt a bit silly. There's already so much stuff going on that throwing another catastrophic event into the mix just felt unnecessary, and in a lot of ways, diminishes the competence of a LOT of people in the Blue Planet universe. It's a nice touch that both Fedayeen and SOC react to the asteroid, but with so much riding on the line, you'd think there'd be contingencies for it.

I would have been fine with the SOC fixing everything should the player lose. Maybe to force a failure condition, Laporte and her crew would be KIA from SOC through FRED magic.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: The E on April 27, 2017, 06:59:14 am
On a different note, I thought the Gef asteroid subplot felt a bit silly. There's already so much stuff going on that throwing another catastrophic event into the mix just felt unnecessary, and in a lot of ways, diminishes the competence of a LOT of people in the Blue Planet universe. It's a nice touch that both Fedayeen and SOC react to the asteroid, but with so much riding on the line, you'd think there'd be contingencies for it.

The GEF (specifically, that particular cell) aren't exactly characterized by their rational approach to strategy.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: General Battuta on April 27, 2017, 09:05:29 am
Historically arming the local insurgency to fight a guerilla war on your behalf has often gone badly awry.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 27, 2017, 09:51:52 am
(http://i.imgur.com/9kmSCqI.png)
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Damage on April 27, 2017, 01:46:16 pm
From a story point, I always felt like the MacDuff/Gaian Effort mission was kind of a neat subplot that *could* have been left out without really detracting anything from the main story.  It demonstrates a bit how much other stuff is going on in this war without getting too distracting with dialogue and background info.  (Though there's some of that, too.)  As Battuta said, arming the local, err...."freedom fighters."

It's kind of like the first chunk of Return of the Jedi, wherein the main characters are NOT actively helping the Rebellion for a couple days, but are instead on a side-quest.  "Yes, there's a war on, but this is important too, and it may help advance the plot tomorrow."

Moreover, from a technical point, it's a nice little "concept mission" like the Blade Itself.

Out of curiosity, if this mission hadn't been in place, what might've replaced it?
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: General Battuta on April 27, 2017, 02:02:13 pm
I dunno, it was always pretty firmly there. The Gef/Macduff story had been simmering in the background since very early in Act 1 - it was time for a huge outside context problem to leap up and smack you. There's a reason we had the Gefs going after subspace components in 'For the Wrong Reasons'.

After both sides of the war had been arming and trying to manipulate the Gefs, the Gefs demonstrated why post-subspace war is so high stakes: there's a lot of potential planetkillers out there. It's as crazy, unexpected, and outside the narrative as a bunch of jets slamming into your buildings one morning.

Spoilers for current science fiction book/tv series
Spoiler:
We ended up rather presciently forecasting the way the same conflict went in the Expanse books!
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: DefCynodont119 on April 27, 2017, 02:48:54 pm
Hey, Awesome posts so far. I would argue that Macduff was really good at tactical planing. (no where near as good as steele but closer than most would want to admit)

You don't build a subspace drive big enough to move an asteroid bigger than the K-T one overnight. It's clear that Macduff was using GTVI bribes/arms to fund his project from day one. The GTVA never stopped to think, "hey, you think that those guy are completely insane? Maybe we should stick some agents in their station? Just in case they do something completely insane? Naw. . It's cool bro."


If anything, Framing the GEFs for attacking the zods was the worst thing that happened to the GEFs.



Going back to things I asked in the OP and other post-impact effects; what do you think would happen to steele? The finger would almost surely be pointed at him.


Also, is there any chance of the GEFs becoming active outside Sol once earth is gone? Like, Hammer of Light levels of active? and Is that a good idea for a spin-off mission?

Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: -Norbert- on April 28, 2017, 04:09:13 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the nuclear winter that was caused by the meteor that slowly killed off the dinosaurs and not the impact itself?

So yeah, a lot of people would be killed on the impact site and more by possible tsunamis if the meteor impacted in or close to the ocean, but on a planetary scale I think the meteor would have wiped out a comparetively small number of citizens of Earth.

Both the UEF and GTVA have terraformign equipment so it stands to reason that they could greatly shorten the length of the nuclear winter or maybe even outright prevent it. And even if they can't, Humans still have the necessary technology to survive in such an enviroment or alternatively evacuate to other habitats, like Mars, some moons or hollowed out asteroids like the Gefs use.

Of course a flood of billions of refugees would cause a whole lot of new problems all over the Solar System, but also opportunities.

In an extreme case it could even lead to peace, if the GTVA were to agree to a cease fire and delivered disaster relief... or it could mean that Steele would use the ensuing Chaos to make a decisive strike against Earth or Mars. Of course the political fallout of letting Earth be so badly mauled might still cost him his career, but by the time he get's withdrawn the strike would have already happened.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: DefCynodont119 on April 28, 2017, 07:45:53 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the nuclear winter that was caused by the meteor that slowly killed off the dinosaurs and not the impact itself?


You're not wrong :) but if I may:

*PUTS ON PITH HELMET*   ;)


Depends on where you are and your definition of slowly.

Nuclear winter was the final killer yes, but there were some other nasty effects too, one worth noting is the firestorm wave. Basically, if you ever had to look up/study nuke tests, you know that super-heated air can travel much farther than the part of the shockwave that smashes stuff. A super-heated air wave may only hit you for a second or two if you are a few miles, (or hundred miles if we are talking big space rocks) from the explosion. And be only a little hotter than an oven, but this is enough to start combustion.

As far as we can estimate, the K-E impact's firestorm could have reached half the planet- exposure to oven like temps for 1-2 secs probably won't kill you directly, but it could start forest fires in areas located on the same hemisphere FIGGEN' EVERYWHERE relative to the impact site.


And the extra ash/soot from the worldwide fires does not make the nuclear/volcanic winter any shorter. For the other side of the planet thing take longer, + you have the tsunamis, the earthquakes, large amounts of super-heated ocean surface could make really really really really really bad storms. also ash kills ozone. not to mention that- I'm, trailing off now, sorry, Paleontology gets me excited.  :cool:


One last thing to remember: Macduff's rock is 40% bigger; I can't say how much worse that would make it. but the PVN and GTA did get a few hundred million out of Vasuda Prime, and the GTVA got most of everyone out of Capella, so mass exoduses are nothing new and may have contingencies.


and as you said:
Both the UEF and GTVA have terraformation equipment so it stands to reason that they could greatly shorten the length of the nuclear winter or maybe even outright prevent it. And even if they can't, Humans still have the necessary technology to survive in such an environment or alternatively evacuate to other habitats, like Mars, some moons or hollowed out asteroids like the Gefs use.

Of course a flood of billions of refugees would cause a whole lot of new problems all over the Solar System, but also opportunities.

So, the only question at that point is how many people could they get off Earth and how long do they have to do so.



( DefCynodont119 is NOT a professional Paleontologist/Geologist/Planetary Physicist. [yet] So take everything I say with a grain of Salt/Halite/Sodium Chloride. )
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Mito [PL] on April 29, 2017, 06:42:57 am
One last thing to remember: Macduff's rock is 40% bigger; I can't say how much worse that would make it. but the PVN and GTA did get a few hundred million out of Vasuda Prime, and the GTVA got most of everyone out of Capella, so mass exoduses are nothing new and may have contingencies.
There's quite a difference right here. Both Vasuda Prime and Capella evacuations had the time to react to the threat. Vasudans probably started evacuating as soon as the word arrived that the Lucifer is headed for their homeworld - that gives us... how much? I'd say that at least a couple dozen hours or more.
And Capella - GTVA had noticed the threat at least quite a few days before the star was detonated.
UEF in this situation wouldn't have nearly as much time to react. If we assume that the asteroid can jump all the way from Kuiper Belt to a place, let's say, closer to Earth than Luna is... An hour before it impacts? I think the assumption of subspace capabilities of the drive core is fairly accurate, since you fail the mission if asteroid jumps. It might emerge from subspace a bit further away from Earth though, which can give some more time to the UEF.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: General Battuta on April 30, 2017, 02:44:26 pm
The asteroid breaks apart on jump which makes it way harder to intercept. (Also shows that MacDuff did not magically engineer a subspace drive for a giant-size ship.)
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: CT27 on May 03, 2017, 08:35:36 pm
It'd certainly be a morale hit for the GTVA Terrans since reclaiming Earth was one of their goals.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: -Norbert- on May 05, 2017, 01:24:58 am
I guess one more factor is how well Steele could keep his involvement with the Kostadin Cell secret.

As long as all the blame falls on the Gef alone, it might even help the GTVA politically if they use it right.

"Just like we said all along, the Sol government is incapable of protecting their citizens in the face of real danger. If they can't even guard against mere terrorists, how can they ever hope to resist the Shivans? We need to liberate the citizens of Sol from this flawed government that is so obssessed with spiritual matters that they don't notice the physical reality right under their noses."

Sounds pretty good to get the people on your side after the news hits. Hell, that might even convince quite a few of the shaken Federation citizens to go over.

But if ever Steele's backroom-deals with the Gef come to light... I guess there'll be rioting in the streets. He can be happy if it's only his career that's finished.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Nova Terran on May 10, 2017, 09:43:33 am
The GTVA would exterminate every Gef cells in Sol, partly as retribution (you don't get away with basically destroying one's homeworld), and partly as cover-ups.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Mito [PL] on May 10, 2017, 02:37:37 pm
Nah. In the long run, humanity is exterminated by Shivans - Vishnans ordered a cull, and Ken doesn't have any reason to force Shivans to stop the killing spree.

Or does he...? Maybe if Shambala goes down (or isn't ever finished in the first place) Ken accomplishes his goals and humanity is spared.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Erebus Alpha on August 01, 2017, 12:56:45 am
There is one other piece to this equation: Impact velocity.

The Gef habitat is basically a kuiper belt object. Because those orbit so much further away from the sun, their orbital speeds are much slower. Pluto, for example, orbits at 4.7 km/sec.

Contrast with Earth, which has a much higher orbital speed, of 30 km/sec.

It's completely possible that if the Gef habitat retains its velocity through subspace transit, it could slam into Earth at 25+ km/sec.

Heaven forbid that Earth and the Gef habitat were on opposite sides of the sun during their orbits. Because then any retained velocity would be ADDITIVE. Which means impact velocity would be between 30-35 km/sec.

But wait, there's more! Order now, and I'll super-size your apocalypse!

Ships in FS2 and BP do zoom into and out of subspace much faster than they usually move (DIVE, DIVE, DIVE, HIT YOUR BURNERS PILOT!). If you fail the mission, the Gef habitat doesn't just lazily glide into subspace, it hauls butt at a few km/sec. It does not have thrusters like a ship does.

...Which means when it pops back out of subspace and fractures into a bunch of pieces, it's unlikely that they will decelerate. This cometary debris could have been moving with a relative velocity of 40 or 45 km/sec - before Earth's gravity began accelerating it.

Contrast with most near-earth asteroids, which start with velocities rather closely matched with Earth's, and you have a recipe for the biggest catastrophe in all of Earth's history. This thing would completely wreck the planet. There would still be a ball of rock that used to be Earth...but not much else.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: DefCynodont119 on August 01, 2017, 02:46:52 am
There is one other piece to this equation: Impact velocity.

The Gef habitat is basically a kuiper belt object. Because those orbit so much further away from the sun, their orbital speeds are much slower. Pluto, for example, orbits at 4.7 km/sec.

Contrast with Earth, which has a much higher orbital speed, of 30 km/sec.

It's completely possible that if the Gef habitat retains its velocity through subspace transit, it could slam into Earth at 25+ km/sec.

Heaven forbid that Earth and the Gef habitat were on opposite sides of the sun during their orbits. Because then any retained velocity would be ADDITIVE. Which means impact velocity would be between 30-35 km/sec.

But wait, there's more! Order now, and I'll super-size your apocalypse!

Ships in FS2 and BP do zoom into and out of subspace much faster than they usually move (DIVE, DIVE, DIVE, HIT YOUR BURNERS PILOT!). If you fail the mission, the Gef habitat doesn't just lazily glide into subspace, it hauls butt at a few km/sec. It does not have thrusters like a ship does.

...Which means when it pops back out of subspace and fractures into a bunch of pieces, it's unlikely that they will decelerate. This cometary debris could have been moving with a relative velocity of 40 or 45 km/sec - before Earth's gravity began accelerating it.

Contrast with most near-earth asteroids, which start with velocities rather closely matched with Earth's, and you have a recipe for the biggest catastrophe in all of Earth's history. This thing would completely wreck the planet. There would still be a ball of rock that used to be Earth...but not much else.



First off, this is a great post,  :yes:
2nd, I wish I could do the math on this, but at that point we are going into Late Heavy Bombardment / Major Hadean-Archean impact events Territory.  0_0

Not the worst earth has seen tho, unless you're not counting Thea. But dang close if you are.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Mito [PL] on August 01, 2017, 04:17:57 am
This is where Freespace's FTL idea gets blurry. If subspace jumps would retain the speed, vector and momentum of a jumping object, well... The Imperiuse in Delenda Est would have to either decelerate in the Belt (with 1G=10m/s^2, a deceleration of 1km/s would take 100 seconds of full 1G thrust slowing down in relation to asteroids) or would have buzzed by Wargods with a speed of several km/s.

But if subspace jump is preserving only the speed relative to the environment (i.e. these several hundred m/s of a destroyer jumping out), then we've got only a few km/s plus what Earth could accelerate with its gravity underway. For reference, the Chelabinsk meteor had a speed of 19 km/s before the impact. I'm not sure what to really think about it.

But I recall there being a very good read about subspace drives in Shetland/Ephesus fiction, also involving some info on how to crash at a planet with ludicrous speeds.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Rheavatarin on August 01, 2017, 08:51:02 am
Yeah, the physics is awfully blurry here. I mean, why does magical space drag affect spaceships, but not planets, asteroids, satellites, etc. The reasons are for game play and fun. So, in that spirit, I think it is more interesting to consider the political and social effects of the cataclysmic destruction of the vast majority of Earth's population and non-space infrastructure instead of trying to figure out exactly how quickly the aforementioned population and infrastructure get destroyed.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Mito [PL] on August 01, 2017, 09:31:13 am
The "how quickly" here differs between possible outcomes a lot. With a stellar body of that kind of size the Gef asteroid has got, at 5km/s it would probably partially burn down in Earth's atmosphere and result in some (a lot) of casualties, perhaps similar to debris falling after Darkest Hour.
But the same body at 25-35 km/s could just glass half a continent worth of land and cause Earth to enter something alike a post-nuclear-war winter.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on August 01, 2017, 03:15:16 pm
This is the fundamental problem with subspace as presented in-game: as far as we can tell, there is nothing stopping anyone from using any subspace drive as a massive kinetic weapon, and yet it never happens (that we know of), even by accident. This is (AFAIK) why BP tries not to examine the specifics of subspace in any in-depth way beyond how it applies to the strategic situation, because otherwise one wonders why SSMs don't just slam into targets at c-fractional velocities.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: General Battuta on August 01, 2017, 03:23:17 pm
The Gef asteroid shears apart when it jumps, suggesting that objects this large can't safely be moved by subspace across such a huge velocity gap (at least with Gef tech).
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: DefCynodont119 on August 01, 2017, 04:58:30 pm
The "how quickly" here differs between possible outcomes a lot. With a stellar body of that kind of size the Gef asteroid has got, at 5km/s it would probably partially burn down in Earth's atmosphere and result in some (a lot) of casualties, perhaps similar to debris falling after Darkest Hour.
But the same body at 25-35 km/s could just glass half a continent worth of land and cause Earth to enter something alike a post-nuclear-war winter.

Well, this rock is huge, it's a good deal bigger then the highest mass estimates of the one that killed the dinos, correct me if I'm wrong but even at <5km/s and after braking up into several pieces post jump as Battuta said; my educated-guess would be that even under the best circumstances, glassed continents and a nuclear winter are gonna happen no mater what.


So it's not so much "how quickly" but "how permanently" Either Earth gets a mass extinction similar to the ones it's had in the past; or Earth gets turned into a more or less sanitized ball of magma.
As far as the Terrans are concerned, Earth is gone either way so yeah.





So, in that spirit, I think it is more interesting to consider the political and social effects of the cataclysmic destruction of the vast majority of Earth's population and non-space infrastructure instead of trying to figure out exactly how quickly the aforementioned population and infrastructure get destroyed.


Yeah, that kinda was the original point when I posted the OP.
But me being the massive nerd that I am, I may have derailed my own thread with my own physics talk.  :nervous:  :lol:
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Erebus Alpha on August 02, 2017, 03:53:30 am
Well, the political and social effects of this doomsday scenario are dependent on how bad the extinction is.

Best-case scenario, Earth gets lucky, the subspace window opens in the upper atmosphere, relative velocity is minimal, much lower than an asteroid impact, and a shotgun spray of cometary ice messes up a continent.

That would throw a massive wrench in the UEF's plan to win the war, and it would do nothing but benefit the GTVA. Hell, the Tevs might even consider broadcasting "Our Gef allies dropped a giant comet boulder on your puny heads! Surrender, or we will send more!" After all, in this scenario, it wouldn't be any worse than several dozen nukes going off, and without any of the nasty side effects of radioactive fallout. You might have some mild crop failures, but the short term effect of losing population and infrastructure is going to be a lot worse than any debris the impact propels into the atmosphere.

The Tevs initially set out to hold Earth hostage with orbital bombardment. That's why command sent Bei & his multitude of beam cannons. It's pretty reasonable to assume that if the Vishnans had not interfered and dragged them into alternate-reality Shivanland, Bei & company would have followed through on the threat, and would have started vaporizing cities.

Aside from being much more random in its distribution of destruction, the comet strike would be mostly the same as a post-bombardment Earth. The Tevs are now in a great position to begin landing and annexing the planet (though it's stated somewhere that there are not enough marines in the whole GTVA to occupy even one continent on Earth).

Now let's consider the worst case scenario:

The cometary debris smashes into Earth at 60+ km/sec,  possibly the highest-velocity impact Earth has ever seen. The blast vaporizes a continent and propels a measurable percentage of Earth's mass into various suborbital trajectories. The fireball boils off a decent fraction of the oceans, wrecking all the shallow ocean biospheres. The heat wave encircles the planet, igniting everything flammable. Plant life fails on a global scale, and the fires burn off the last of Earth's precious oxygen.

This planet is no longer worth fighting over. Everything the GTVA came here to do was a massive waste of time. On top of this, the dream of returning home to Earth that propels the Terran half of the GTVA is forever shattered.

Crushing debt alone will probably force the Terran half of the GTVA to implode. Maybe Khonsu II can save them all, maybe Khonsu II can deal with the inevitable Terran backlash & NTF-effect. Maybe the Vasudans just detach from the husk that used to be the GTVA, and go do their own thing for a while.

The Tevs can actually gain a lot from this if the physics (or lack thereof) cause the impact event to be not-that-bad. But as the damage inflicted by this event increases, it starts to get disadvantageous for the Tevs.

Of course, it could be even worse than that:

...This is (AFAIK) why BP tries not to examine the specifics of subspace in any in-depth way beyond how it applies to the strategic situation, because otherwise one wonders why SSMs don't just slam into targets at c-fractional velocities.

If subspace can be used to induce c-fractional velocities...hoooooooooly crap. A measly 0.01 C, or 1% lightspeed, is almost THREE THOUSAND km/sec.

This is death-star-level destruction. There would not be an Earth after this.

...But as it concerns the Tevs & Buntus, an impact of that magnitude is no better or worse than the 60+ km/sec impact. Earth is equally useless & unusuable as either a sterile ball of rock, or a pulverized mess of vapor, dust, and asteroids.



PS, I do use subspace drive shenanigans to propel things to crazy-high velocities in my upcoming mod. The GTVA doesn't do it because of accuracy issues (can't hit the broad side of a sathanas) or strategic value (planets are worth more intact). The Shivans, on the other hand, used to do it all the time, until they invented more efficient and destructive strategic superweapons.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Mito [PL] on August 02, 2017, 06:31:29 am
Kinetic energy of an object is equal to 0,5 x m x (v^2), that's why what looks like a marginal (under these circumstances) speed difference may have very different possible impact energy. In this case, between 5 and 35 km/s, the worst case impact would release about 50 times more energy than the best case scenario. In Wikipedia article of Chicxulub Crater, it's estimated that a 10km diameter planetoid with a mass of 1000 billion tons crashing at a speed of 20km/s would release about 4 x 10^23 Joules of energy. A quick calculation, that would be 16x the energy of the best case, and about 0,33x the energy of our worst case scenario.

So, if the planetoid (I suppose we assume that both the past extincion rock and the Gef asteroid are very similar in size) carried over all the momentum through the jump... Yeah, Earth is basically totally toast, as it's assumed that that planetoid from 60 million years from before caused all of Earth's biosphere to totally burn out. Now, 16 times less energy might not be very much. But I decided to take a look at this (http://impact.ese.ic.ac.uk/ImpactEffects/), impact of that kind of rock at 11km/s has got conditions for many people surviving down to about 300km from the center of the crater, while at 35km/s the fireball would outright cook everything in the radius of a little bit above 1000km. Not considering long term damage here.

And 30km/s compared to c=300000km/s is only 0,01%. But I imagine how that kind of warfare would look like - grab or make an object, push it on an orbit far below Mercury's orbit and when it gets the speed it needs, engage its jump drives to carry it to the target. At the radius of 0,0045 AU from the Sun (period of 1 Earth day) it would have about 450km/s, which is about 0,15% of c... Which I wouldn't really consider c-fractional yet. I suppose one would need to teleport objects from other star clusters or even other galaxies to have that 1% c available.

Either way, if such an event occured, it would be a blow for both sides. UEF obviously can't continue the war with Earth blown up just like that, while the GTVA's pursue of taking over Sol becomes a massive genocide, not a war. Not to mention that Tevs wanted to take over Sol economy, not destroy a half of it and make the other half crumble. Oh, and in the end Shivans kill everyone.

The thing I'm contemplating is how much of an influence MacDuff could actually have in the Vishnu/Shiva "conflict". We're discussing a way by which he could stop the Vishnans from achieving their goal even as effectively as Tevs can. It also seems harder to intervene in this particular case to prevent him from toasting Earth.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Erebus Alpha on August 02, 2017, 06:53:30 am
Idk, the Vishnans could probably have swept the rock away, where it would have crashed into alternate-reality Lucifer-burned Earth.

Of course, it also begs the question: If the Vishnans can design a civilization to their specifications (Ubuntu/UEF)...could Kostadin be a Shivan-designed civilization? Macduff might be the product of Shivans playing with Nagari sensitives. You know, a contingency in case the whole Ken/Laporte thing did not work out.

Macduff doesn't play around with any silly occupation, or annexation, or cute little orbital bombardments like the tevs do. His approach is straight and to the point: Blast the enemy into extinction with subspace ****ery, and damn the consequences!

Kostadin Cell being a product of Shivan design makes a disturbing amount of sense.

EDIT: If you want to achieve a high percentage of C using a subspace drive, enter subspace while at/near the periapsis of your orbit around the sun, well inside the orbit of mercury. Re-emerge from subspace a few million km higher, pointed back at the sun for another high-speed descent and slingshot maneuver. Rinse and repeat until you achieve your desired velocity. Or to the limit of your reactor & drive endurance, whichever comes first.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Snarks on August 02, 2017, 09:00:01 pm

Of course, it also begs the question: If the Vishnans can design a civilization to their specifications (Ubuntu/UEF)...could Kostadin be a Shivan-designed civilization? Macduff might be the product of Shivans playing with Nagari sensitives. You know, a contingency in case the whole Ken/Laporte thing did not work out.

Macduff doesn't play around with any silly occupation, or annexation, or cute little orbital bombardments like the tevs do. His approach is straight and to the point: Blast the enemy into extinction with subspace ****ery, and damn the consequences!

Kostadin Cell being a product of Shivan design makes a disturbing amount of sense.


Considering that Laporte is being directed by the Shivans through the Ken anima, it seems contradictory to the Shivan's objectives. In general, I don't think the Shivans have the capacity to influence an entire civilization. I think that's more of a Vishnan thing. Shivans and Vishnans both rely on Nagari, but otherwise seem to differ quite a lot.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: DefCynodont119 on August 03, 2017, 12:32:33 am
Considering that Laporte is being directed by the Shivans through the Ken anima, it seems contradictory to the Shivan's objectives. In general, I don't think the Shivans have the capacity to influence an entire civilization. I think that's more of a Vishnan thing. Shivans and Vishnans both rely on Nagari, but otherwise seem to differ quite a lot.


True, but it does not exclude the possibility that Macduff is a Nagari sensitive; If he is, he could be aware of the larger power's agendas, but focused on using their actions to profit for himself. . . Somehow. . .
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: xenocartographer on August 03, 2017, 06:34:47 pm
There's absolutely no reason why Shivan animae (I'm not sure if the term applies to Ken, but for lack of a better one) would have to cooperate, or even be particularly likely to. Think about our own brains - different brain structures compete all the time, and for that matter, so do different somatic systems. I'd argue, and am considering writing an essay arguing, that internal contradiction is an inherent property of Darwinian systems, and the Shivans are definitely evolved. If Ken is optimized to solve the problem in Sol, his methods almost certainly would diverge from the larger Shivan heuristic response.

Alternatively, One Future could be a particularly direct implementation of an interuniversal fitness function. Either is compatible with a Shivan-designed Gaian Effort.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Erebus Alpha on August 04, 2017, 04:16:46 pm
I don't think the entire Gaian Effort is the result of Shivan manipulation of Nagari sensitives. The Gefs consist of a bunch of seperate cells, with varying agendas, and most are not as hardline & extremist as Kostadin cell.

During Age of Aquarius, Steele gives us a hint. It might be true, it might be false: "Could the enemy weaponize cognition? Could the Hammer of Light's religious awe be the result of external stimulation of the temporal lobe?"

I think it's more likely that the Shivans are doing to Kostadin cell what they did to the Hammer of Light, and there is a decent chance that Macduff himself is a Nagari sensitive.

...Even if it turns out to not be the case, it's still a fascinating thought. This is what I love about BP: There is a practically infinite amount of plot fuel, and any number of very awesome & exotic things can end up happening, because there are more questions than answers. Although our baseless speculation, in many cases, is completely story-worthy, the writers of BP canon have never failed to deliver an even more impressive experience.

I cannot help but wonder if the story of the BP universe is finished, or still in development. Does the BP team use our wild speculation for cultivating and testing story ideas?

The BP team might be Shivan! :eek2:
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Snarks on August 04, 2017, 08:08:33 pm
I can't remember where, but I recalled that the Elders might be keeping the Gef around, as a final contingency for humanity's survival, should the Shivans annihilated everything else. The Gef's adaptation to living in fringe space would give them the best ability to survive without actual colonies. I would suppose that this factor, at least for non-Kostadin, non-suicidal Gef, would work against the Shivan's interest of destroying an entire species.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Erebus Alpha on August 04, 2017, 08:34:22 pm
As I understand it, the Shivans in the BP canon are basically cosmic gardeners, exterminating species that pose a threat to future development, so that lots of new & different things exist in the future. And they appear to use subspace & Nagari as a mechanism for target detection.

I know that's a gross oversimplification, lol. And it does totally ignore the Vishnan side of the equation.

Consider this though: Any species that expands through the cosmos without faster-than-light travel, such as the Gefs, are off of the Shivans' radar. This might not be a flaw at all. If a species is wholly incapable of becoming a hegemony, because it lacks FTL travel and communication, then would genocide be necessary?

It makes sense that a society (Kostadin) shaped by Shivan nagari interfacing would (1) be capable of persisting over the long term without requiring the Shivans to wipe it out, and (2) recognize the necessity of violence and destruction, like the Shivans do.

This would also paint Ken as a hopelessly naive idealist in the Shivan system, trying to macgyver some way that humankind can continue to exist. Perhaps because in the long run, nothing short of extinction or total subspace deprivation would satisfy the Shivan anti-hegemon imperative.

Who knows, the Shivan manifesto may demand nothing short of total extinction, which would also make Kostadin the hopelessly naive pet project of some poor Shivan idealist.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: xenocartographer on August 05, 2017, 08:25:32 am
I can't remember where, but I recalled that the Elders might be keeping the Gef around, as a final contingency for humanity's survival, should the Shivans annihilated everything else. The Gef's adaptation to living in fringe space would give them the best ability to survive without actual colonies. I would suppose that this factor, at least for non-Kostadin, non-suicidal Gef, would work against the Shivan's interest of destroying an entire species.

Al-da'wa can mention this in the fourth(?) dreamscape.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: QuakeIV on August 05, 2017, 04:18:59 pm
I mean, as I understand it, its perfectly possible for humanity to survive as long as it doesn't threaten the cognitive diversity of the universe.  Any macgyvering would probably be centered around the fact that humans are too easily driven into a genocidal rage, and how can we keep humanity from doing something that will get it killed.  Its my understanding that Shivans dont just wipe out everything that is big enough and has subspace technology, they do in fact have restraint.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Rogue Assassin04 on September 07, 2018, 04:55:55 pm
I had a few questions. I apologize if it seems too lame/non-relatable.


*If earth did get destroyed, what would the alien races think about it? How will it change their secret agendas?

*Also, if the GTVA and the UEF had terra forming equipment, why didnt they restore Vasuda Prime?

*Would this affect the development of Shambhala?
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: QuakeIV on September 08, 2018, 06:49:04 am
I'd personally suppose vasuda prime was a bit too far gone to be considered a viable terraforming candidate.  You could pick the vaguely decent mars-alike place, or the radioactive, geologically unstable place with **** tons of dust clogging up the upper atmosphere for the next few centuries.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: Snarks on September 09, 2018, 03:24:37 am
Wasn't the terraforming of Mars something that took decades? Plus, it likely seem to be something that was done before subspace travel was developed. If you could just find a more suitable planet, it's likely far cheaper to settle than to try to turn a barren wasteland into something useful.
Title: Re: [Spoilers] What would happen after a GEF Victory in "One future"?
Post by: QuakeIV on September 09, 2018, 08:37:51 pm
As far as I know thats mainly what they ended up doing, in the sense that I recall most of the surviving vasudans getting shipped to their remaining colonies.