Author Topic: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?  (Read 17148 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Your posts are so good!

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
I don't think Steele speaking so literally about it works. For me, at least. I like it as a nice little nod to his morality, that even for a 'gentleman psychopath' like him, there's something about actually having to conduct MORPHEUS that leaves him unsettled.

IIRC, Steele's dreams were about walking the perimeter, checking the six, because 'they' sneak in through dreams.

SHAMBHALA is Byrne's secret project, yeah? And what he needs all the captured GTVA warships for?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 08:59:33 pm by Azrael15 »

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Your posts are so good!

*bows*

I don't think Steele speaking so literally about it works. For me, at least. I like it as a nice little nod to his morality, that even for a 'gentleman psychopath' like him, there's something about actually having to conduct MORPHEUS that leaves him unsettled.

IIRC, Steele's dreams were about walking the perimeter, checking the six, because 'they' sneak in through dreams.

SHAMBHALA is Byrne's secret project, yeah? And what he needs all the captured GTVA warships for?

It's pretty clear that the reason Steele's dreams are like that is that he's been inoculated with Nagari countermeasures. "They sneak in through dreams" obviously refers to the Vishnans. Also -- morality? Ha. He's been in SOC for over 20 years...

Shambhala is a project of the Elders. Remember, Byrne is the military representative of the Elders. And he studied directly under Martin Mandho, whose idea Shambhala probably was in the first place; in fact, I suspect that he was the catalyst for aligning the UEF with the Vishnans.

As for why Shambhala needs the 14th BG and the Agincourt -- it's a huge project. We're talking about the mass upload of billions of minds to a computer. If said computer lets people think all the faster, then this needs to happen at the same time or risk huge personality clashes between uploads. Were it not for certain discoveries, it probably would have been beyond their tech level; as it is, even with the massive industry of Sol behind it, it is just massively hard. They needed the logistics ship -- which can field-repair a destroyer, down to the fusion reactors and subspace motivators -- for supplies and equipment, since the rest of Sol is involved with a shooting war and they needed to accelerate their timetable.

As for the rest -- The Sanctuary is the most obvious. They have 10,000 people who have been shaped by Vishnan Nagari activity for 50 years; they could serve Shambhala in all sorts of ways, from technical support to shepherding the people into "enlightenment". Of the other ships of the 14th, the only ones we know defected were the Duke and the Solace. The Solace did not become part of Shambhala; they were sent to Second Fleet as a supply ship. The Duke's disposition is less clear; nothing she has to offer is as obviously useful to Shambhala, except for maybe some computer records and maybe her Vishnan-touched crew.

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
I can't really believe that with the absolute juggernaut that is Sol's peacetime economy, the UEF would need a GTVA logistics ship to build a load of computers. GTLs are, as you said, there to hold missiles and warship parts and fuel refineries for a fleet on the run from a legion of Sathanai. They're not chip fabrication plants.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Maybe this computer the Elders intend to upload us all to is mobile, but once it starts the upload process, it will essentially be broadcasting its location and be unable to move if attacked.  The 14BG, 1st Fleet, and the captured logistics ship could be for nothing more than buying time once Shambalah Station unzips its fly? The process probably isn't instantaneous.

One of the logistics ships may well be Shambalah Station! They are large and mobile and you can fit a lot of people and equipment on them.
"Any idiot can face a crisis; it is this day to day living that wears you out." – Anton Chekhov

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Iif it's mobile, I'd assume it wouldn't be one of the logistics ships, or the Sanctuary, since the project was active before the Tevs entered the system. But if it had a presence in the physical universe, wouldn't the Shivans be able to find it and destroy it? It takes a lot less to destroy one ship or station, however well-armored, than it does planets.

 

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
I feel like it's required to mention that the "they" Steele mentions in his dream is not required to be Vishnans.  It's possible that SOC personnel (among others) have been exposed to Shivan Nagari incursions, 'peaceful' or otherwise.  It occurs to me that this may be something particularly related to the Shivan Comms Node.  The metaphorical representation of Laporte's subconscious Nagari broadcast in Ken is a Shivan Comm Node, after all.  She has no reason to know that such a thing even exists, nevermind accurately simulate one in her subconscious.

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
It's pretty clear that the reason Steele's dreams are like that is that he's been inoculated with Nagari countermeasures. "They sneak in through dreams" obviously refers to the Vishnans. Also -- morality? Ha. He's been in SOC for over 20 years...

Absolutely. His repeating phrases are basically a ritual to ward off demons.

I still think Steele needs some glimmer of humanity. His SOC record - while no doubt impressive -doesn't preclude that. I don't see why MORPHEUS would be something that Steele calls a 'nightmare' if it's just, basically, turning off Nagari sensitivity. And I don't see why he'd phrase it so ominously to Lopez, unless he's deliberately messing with her. I always thought MORPHEUS was something like genocide (purging all Vishnan compromised elements in Sol), although I can't remember where I picked that up.

Quote
Shambhala is a project of the Elders. Remember, Byrne is the military representative of the Elders. And he studied directly under Martin Mandho, whose idea Shambhala probably was in the first place; in fact, I suspect that he was the catalyst for aligning the UEF with the Vishnans.

Yeah. I was just remembering (I think) Calder calling it Byrne's special project. Mandho's also the guy who tells Laporte to listen to Ken as the Elders sometimes hear similar voices, and to explicitly trust Ken. Good catch.

Quote
As for why Shambhala needs the 14th BG and the Agincourt -- it's a huge project. We're talking about the mass upload of billions of minds to a computer. If said computer lets people think all the faster, then this needs to happen at the same time or risk huge personality clashes between uploads. Were it not for certain discoveries, it probably would have been beyond their tech level; as it is, even with the massive industry of Sol behind it, it is just massively hard. They needed the logistics ship -- which can field-repair a destroyer, down to the fusion reactors and subspace motivators -- for supplies and equipment, since the rest of Sol is involved with a shooting war and they needed to accelerate their timetable.

As for the rest -- The Sanctuary is the most obvious. They have 10,000 people who have been shaped by Vishnan Nagari activity for 50 years; they could serve Shambhala in all sorts of ways, from technical support to shepherding the people into "enlightenment". Of the other ships of the 14th, the only ones we know defected were the Duke and the Solace. The Solace did not become part of Shambhala; they were sent to Second Fleet as a supply ship. The Duke's disposition is less clear; nothing she has to offer is as obviously useful to Shambhala, except for maybe some computer records and maybe her Vishnan-touched crew.

Very good point about the Duke. I always forgot about that little ship.

I feel like it's required to mention that the "they" Steele mentions in his dream is not required to be Vishnans.  It's possible that SOC personnel (among others) have been exposed to Shivan Nagari incursions, 'peaceful' or otherwise.  It occurs to me that this may be something particularly related to the Shivan Comms Node.  The metaphorical representation of Laporte's subconscious Nagari broadcast in Ken is a Shivan Comm Node, after all.  She has no reason to know that such a thing even exists, nevermind accurately simulate one in her subconscious.

I'd say it points more to them than the Shivans, though. The Shivans have only seemingly done dream stuff to Laporte, but even then it seems to be more through waking hallucinations. The Vishnans, on the other hand, seem to embrace slippery dream manipulation more than their black and red counterparts.

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
It's pretty clear that the reason Steele's dreams are like that is that he's been inoculated with Nagari countermeasures. "They sneak in through dreams" obviously refers to the Vishnans.
I have always felt a bit different about that. Maybe Fedayeen. That would be a lot like them, instead going for enemy fleet assets (which is damn hard at the time) just go for the commander, the most dangerous of all enemies, himself. Force him into an error, push him into sleep deprivation, something like that - actually EWAR, but directed at people, not vessels.
If Steele would simply go nuts, he would be replaced for sure. A lot of stuff started to go really bad for the UEF sine Steele took over Severanti's role in this war. I really doubt that GTVA could find someone comparable to him - thus, if that would happen, UEF would actually have a chance of winning.

Very good point about the Duke. I always forgot about that little ship.
There is something more about the Duke. I've read somewhere, that it was the only vessel to actually posses in its memory banks the code needed to activate the Knossos portal in N362. That would make sense - firstly, the vessel with its entire crew has been (aggressively!) possessed by an alien influence (Vishnans? maybe). Then, it went to N362 and as soon as it arrived there, it sent a message to the Knossos portal, activating it. No other people anywhere around to intercept it. The only place it is stored is the Duke itself. Which defected to UEF.

Someone out there said that Shambala is actually a lot simpler concept that it would seem (or I misunderstood that).
So it's safe to assume that the Vishnan-influenced Elders are in possession of both the Duke and the key to N362 portal (with its presence in our realm actually confirmed by some Tev intel data), and at least 10.000 people that actually have been out there, through the portal. It is also unclear, how many people in Sol have been influenced by Vishnans, but we can safely assume that it's the entire Council of Elders with their surroundings, and at least Byrne and his flagship crew. Maybe even a large portion of 1st Fleet.
Plus the Agincourt, Sanctuary and some Tev units - just as military assets. And the Murugan dreadnought that appeared lately on Dan Bell's channel on YouTube. And Byrne "saving up" military forces to his project.
From this point of view it looks like Shambala is not some mystic sentience uploader, but a military project. To create a powerful fleet, gather all of the V-influenced population, shove all of them up that Tev artificial jump node in a single, big and unexpected strategic push, and then just punch through to N362, open the portal... And then what? Physically join the Vishans? Or simply "invite" them into our space?

Whatever would happen right there, it would really attract Tev attention (if we assume that MORPHEUS is really going to wipe out everyone related to Vishnans in Sol). Maybe they would just go chasing Shambala and leave Sol, since they have no interest in sitting there, since their targets have left the system, which could free up resources needed for Laporte to gather a fleet.
That would seem to be correct with Morrigan in the Shadow story.
Excuse me for any spelling errors I make - I'm still learning English :P

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Quote from: VILLAGE PEOPLE
We have the codes from the Duke. We have the location of the portal and ships in position for SMOKEJUMP. We have fledgling MORPHEUS countermeasures. We could insert a team. No more SADABA YEAR bull****: a realspace run. Good old-fashioned recon.

So the Duke wasn't the only copy of those codes.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
That doesn't hurt Mito's theory, though! The point is that the UEF does have a copy.

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
That's even better! Not only there's a redundancy for the code UEF possesses, just in case if any traitor or agent erases them, but there is a possibility of forcing Tevs to open the portal themselves and set up a blockade on the far side (pure tactical purposes: it's better to beam the enemy units to death when they leave a jump node than stand still in a fixed place in space and repel enemy attacks, especially if you only have a small force to use).

Thanks for pointing that out! :P
Excuse me for any spelling errors I make - I'm still learning English :P

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
I have always felt a bit different about that. Maybe Fedayeen. That would be a lot like them, instead going for enemy fleet assets (which is damn hard at the time) just go for the commander, the most dangerous of all enemies, himself. Force him into an error, push him into sleep deprivation, something like that - actually EWAR, but directed at people, not vessels.
If Steele would simply go nuts, he would be replaced for sure. A lot of stuff started to go really bad for the UEF sine Steele took over Severanti's role in this war. I really doubt that GTVA could find someone comparable to him - thus, if that would happen, UEF would actually have a chance of winning.

This would make sense...except if they could do that, they could hit a lot of other, softer targets (like Lopez or Leinonen), disrupt Steele's well-laid plans, and throw him off-balance considerably. And yet, there's no evidence of this in Tenebra. I'm not sure if they had the equipment or information to do that. It's clear some long-range communications are taking place, but is that because the Fedayeen have the capability to transmit, or because they are receiving transmissions from those who do?

Someone out there said that Shambala is actually a lot simpler concept that it would seem (or I misunderstood that).
So it's safe to assume that the Vishnan-influenced Elders are in possession of both the Duke and the key to N362 portal (with its presence in our realm actually confirmed by some Tev intel data), and at least 10.000 people that actually have been out there, through the portal. It is also unclear, how many people in Sol have been influenced by Vishnans, but we can safely assume that it's the entire Council of Elders with their surroundings, and at least Byrne and his flagship crew. Maybe even a large portion of 1st Fleet.
Plus the Agincourt, Sanctuary and some Tev units - just as military assets. And the Murugan dreadnought that appeared lately on Dan Bell's channel on YouTube. And Byrne "saving up" military forces to his project.
From this point of view it looks like Shambala is not some mystic sentience uploader, but a military project. To create a powerful fleet, gather all of the V-influenced population, shove all of them up that Tev artificial jump node in a single, big and unexpected strategic push, and then just punch through to N362, open the portal... And then what? Physically join the Vishans? Or simply "invite" them into our space?

Whatever would happen right there, it would really attract Tev attention (if we assume that MORPHEUS is really going to wipe out everyone related to Vishnans in Sol). Maybe they would just go chasing Shambala and leave Sol, since they have no interest in sitting there, since their targets have left the system, which could free up resources needed for Laporte to gather a fleet.
That would seem to be correct with Morrigan in the Shadow story.

Not sure if I buy the entire Solaris crew being influenced. Putting that aside, the plan sounds insane. If Steele had a half dozen Mjolnirs for station defense, it's safe to say that the Tevs would throw up node blockades every step of the way. How many Mjolnir hits can a Murugan take, even if they took over the project from the Jovians? And how useful would the Sanctuary, a destroyer with Great War technology, be as a military asset? Even with an overwhelming force -- the remnants of the 14th, most of First Home Fleet, and maybe a Murugan or two -- it's hard to say they'd put up much of a fight against the rest of the GTVA fleet. They'd have to plow through at least two battlegroups -- assuming Steele or the 19th doesn't give chase -- to get to N362 to do...what? There's no solid proof the Vishnans are there, or that the system is special to them. Why go to N362 to do something you could do at Earth?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 08:20:44 am by logomancer »

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
The GH files suggested that the Vishnans needed to physically deliver the Sanctuary into Sol in order to (retrocausally) bootstrap their Ubuntu program there, like some sort of inoculation. Perhaps the plan was to deliver the reciprocal payload back from Sol.

Tenebra made it pretty clear that the UEF is now in schism: 1fleet and the Elders on one side, and 2fleet, 3fleet and the Fedayeen with Laporte. Presumably both sides have their own endgame gambits; Shambhala for the former, and whatever Ken's planning for the latter? In Shadow, Shambhala fizzled out offscreen and we got a straightforward explanation of Ken's strategy, but none of that stuff applies to BP according to Battuta.

Steele's attack from the Tenebra ending cutscene will most likely result in a costly GTVA victory (it was premature and expedited by the threat CASSANDRA posed; he wanted to go in some time later), after which a lot of assets will likely be tied down by MORPHEUS. I think the UEF would have a decent shot at managing a Hail Mary. Remember that the GTVA also puts a high priority on having fleets ready for a Shivan threat, and their forces have been torn between that and the Sol theatre. I wouldn't count on them having a huge amount of assets ready to stop a UEF endrun.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Damage

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Except that if the UEF makes a run out of Sol, they'll basically be telegraphing their intentions.  What other possible destinations could they have except N362? -- And GTVI already knows what's there (if not what's beyond it.)


(Although we might get to see a sort of inverted version of "Journey of a Thousand Miles...")
I didn't feel like putting anything here.  Then I did it anyway just to be contrary.

 

Offline Darius

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Act 5 is basically forced entry x 5 in a row.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Revenant :black101:

Shadow does propose one possible UEF endgame involving an end run out of Sol. And it would fit the 'you must choose'/'you must destroy the GTVA' Ken foreshadowing.

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
Act 5 is basically forced entry x 5 in a row.

I swear every time you say anything about BP I can never tell if it's a stunning revelation or some dumb joke

Shadow does propose one possible UEF endgame involving an end run out of Sol. And it would fit the 'you must choose'/'you must destroy the GTVA' Ken foreshadowing.

Yeah, plus somewhere there's a mention that the Shivans at Capella might be waiting for some payload to be delivered. I'm pretty sure that'll happen in BP. But I can't see there being two different "dash through the GTVA to get to the aliens" missions, so that just leaves me back to having no leads on Shambhala!
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Damage

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Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
I suppose it could be a choice in place for the player.

Option 1, dash from Sol to N362 and attempt to contact the Vishnans direct.
Option 2, dash from Sol to attempt to get to Capella....for whatever reason. 

Except the known Capella/Vega node is gone...which leaves us a plot snag.

In either case, the GTVA isn't going to just let them walk through.
I didn't feel like putting anything here.  Then I did it anyway just to be contrary.

 
Re: [Spoilers] What is Shambhala?
toxx clause, if BP lets you do a choose-your-own-ending on something that important i will bake a pie too big for aesaar to eat
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.