Author Topic: Destroyers in Act 4  (Read 6286 times)

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Even with only 2 gorgons you're dealing with 8 total balors, making the TTK just under 1 second. That's still an insane amount of firepower and the big, sluggish Ainsarii would have trouble avoiding it.
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 
I think there are a lot of scenarios where that's not true. An ineffective or reduced Fedayeen capability is worth showing some cards.

Out of curiosity, how many other Falcatta-equivalent fighter squadrons do the Fedayeen have? Maybe 10-20ish?

 

Offline Darius

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Depends how many bases and carriers the fedayeen have to house them. The Masyaf can carry and service about eight fighters for active duty.

 

Offline Snarks

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Depends how many bases and carriers the fedayeen have to house them. The Masyaf can carry and service about eight fighters for active duty.

Wait, does that mean the Masyaf's entire strikecraft operations is dependent on Falcata and Spatha wing?

 
I mean the Indus only supported about 8 fighters too.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 
Looking at Delenda Est the Indus fighterbay can hold 8 Kents and 8 Uriels but I'm guessing it doesn't have the crew necessary to operate all of them at once since only 2 wings fly off the Indus.

These are frigates, not destroyers. They can't support the 10-12 wings a destroyer can.
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 

Offline Aesaar

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Destroyers support way more than 10-12 wings.  They run 10-12 squadrons.  IIRC, the Erebus supports 11 squadrons, which is 132 strikecraft of various types.  The Solaris carries 16 squadrons (192 strikecraft).  Destroyer air wings are huge.

Curiously, the Diomedes can support 12-16 strikecraft up to and including the Artemis.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 06:23:37 am by Aesaar »

 
I thought a destroyer can house 10-12 squadrons...? How many fighters would that be? I think it was mentioned somewhere that a Solaris can carry over 100 fighters (160? I don't remember). Aesaar nailed it.

Also, massed bomber turrets are no joke, especially on the Gorgon. 4 Gorgons with quad balors on their turrets results in 16 balors worth of firepower. That's 1408 shield DPS and 1216 hull DPS. That will 100-0 an Ainsarii with perfect shield management in under half a second.
Nah. That's two Gorgons, I think, and be aware of the turrets' layout - I don't really think that this kind of bomber can fire more than two of them at the same target simultaneously. That's 4 Balors worth of firepower...

And, well, Asinarii is a stealth vessel. It shouldn't get shot just like that. Gorgons have AWACS integrated into their spaceframe? Okay then, Fedayeen, it's time to arm your UX Accelerators and Grimlers.

I don't really like overinterpreting things. That's why I see just two new bombers attacking the Masyaf. Two bombers. Oh, and they can target stealth fighters - I think the tech description reflects that.
Excuse me for any spelling errors I make - I'm still learning English :P

 
But they totally fire with all 4 balors on the Ainsarii in the cutscene, it's not even difficult to get all 4 on the same target. The 2 turrets have 2 balors each and they're on the wings so they have a very good firing arc.
[19:31] <MatthTheGeek> you all high up on your mointain looking down at everyone who doesn't beam everything on insane blindfolded

 
If two or four of these Gorgons are powerful enough to blow up the Masyaf...why did the GTVA even bother building Erebus spaceframes?

Just fill the Imperiuse with a 50/50 Nyx/Gorgon air wing and go nuts.

Run into a sathanas fleet? Bomb the forward beams & slice them up with the carrier's beams.

A bomber of this magnitude would solve every (military) problem the Tevs have. So one of the following is likely true:

1: Bomber is brand new, not in mass production, and the UEF is royally screwed the instant this changes.
2: Giant ships are sexy, so the super-bomber does not enjoy mass production for stupid political reasons.
3: Masyaf is going to be fine, the new bomber is just a modern Ursa with turrets that don't suck.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 09:08:47 pm by Erebus Alpha »
"Obviously the meson bomb is a form of cat-toast-device, with the buttered toast inverted, so that the cat and toast both fly in the direction of gravity much faster than expected. By introducing artificial gravity, a pair of cat-toast perpetual motion accelerator units can be made to collide with one another, and they produce an unimaginably devastating explosion. Both cats are named 'Meson'."

 - Wikileaks 2383

 
If two or four of these Gorgons are powerful enough to blow up the Masyaf...why did the GTVA even bother building Erebus spaceframes?

I don't think it's that simple. Take a look at the Erebus' tech description:

Code: [Select]
But a modern Alliance admiral asks about the weapons last. The platform's truly revolutionary capability lies with her tactical systems.

Communications systems built to the Alliance's BACKBREAKER standard provide common operational capability in the face of most jamming, but the Erebus also boasts a command theater for battle group coordination in non-permissive comm environments. The Erebus' informational weapons systems are built to partner with a Titan-class destroyer, incorporating the Titan's air wing and battle group into force awareness. When multiple Erebus-class destroyers operate in the same theater, BACKBREAKER can designate a group leader or coordinate a flat, decentralized operational schedule which intelligently distributes tasks across the Erebus battle groups. Future upgrades may integrate AWACS capability directly into the destroyer.

The Erebus' primary design tradeoffs lie in her fusion drive, air wing, and logistics. As a line combatant, the Erebus carries few strike craft. She is as fast as a Sathanas, but no faster, relying on her subspace drive to keep the range. And while tactically independent, the Erebus requires more logistical tail than many next-generation warships.

But it would take something radically new to challenge an armada of more than eighty Sathanas juggernauts. And here there was room for conflict. Some factions pushed for an end to the destroyer class, moving to a doctrine of corvettes and light carriers. Others wanted supercarriers, or 'juggernaut destroyers', massive flying beam cannons with limited defensive capability.

Ultimately, a verdict was achieved. Supercarrier and Massive Mjolnir advocates would get an answer in the Titan destroyer. But something more was needed.

There's a lot more in the Erebus and Titan's descriptions, but that describes why the Erebus was not only laid down, but why it's good. It might not be as much of a "massive flying beam cannon" as the Titan or a supercarrier, but instead, it only does everything. Think of the 14th BG; All of the TEI warship assets are supposed to work together, not as independent assets. While there might be some disagreement about just how they're supposed to be used (See: How steele uses the Impereuse and Serkr, and the Titan tech entry), they're still supposed to be used together, and the Erebus shines in such situations. While the Titan has big beams and stuff, the Erebus has a lot of attributes that can't be tabled.

Quote
Run into a sathanas fleet? Bomb the forward beams & slice them up with the carrier's beams.

You make it sound like that's easy. You're forgetting that:
- It's been referred to as a risky procedure in "A Time for Heroes"
- We can hit restart if you mess up the bombing and your ships die. When you die in-universe, you're dead.
- We're also Alpha 1. Not every pilot can be as incredible as shooting Helios at turrets as we are.
- Bombers are flying coffins. If your escort messed up, you'd be swarmed and shot to hell by the Sathanas' air wing, even with your balor turrets.
- The Sathanas fleet has other options available to them then just plodding straight at you at 25 m/s. What happens if one shock-jumps you from the side like Their Finest Hour? A Ravana is sortied as a distraction? Your air wing is busy performing miracles, so you have nothing available to cover you.

Amongst other things.

Quote
A bomber of this magnitude would solve every (military) problem the Tevs have. So one of the following is likely true:

1: Bomber is brand new, not in mass production, and the UEF is royally screwed the instant this changes.
2: Giant ships are sexy, so the super-bomber does not enjoy mass production for stupid political reasons.
3: Masyaf is going to be fine, the new bomber is just a modern Ursa with turrets that don't suck.

The Gorgon is a TEI Wave 2 craft, meaning that like the Nyx and co, it's only recently come out. I couldn't find the details of the TEI in the fiction viewer entries/table/vps - if someone could point me towards them that'd be great - but I did find these two forum threads which might give you a bit more info on the TEI.

While the Gorgon, operating at 100% narrative potential, looks fairly nightmarish (As the gorgon handles now, just as it's tabled, it's a pretty hilarious deathtrap if you're not careful - if great at spamming trebuchets and heavy ordinance), I think it's fairly naive to think that it's going to simply solve all the GTVA's military problems - for example, what if it's ridiculously expensive and thus limited to high priority operations? The GTVA isn't made of money or resources, after all - as much as they want to, you can't just use "muh shivans" as justification for anything to the civilian populace. What if it's very fuel and power intensive and thus can only operate for a short period of time (similar to the UEF craft), as opposed to the extended operating capabilities of regular Tev fighters? There's no such thing as a magic bullet that's going to fix everything, there's always a downside somewhere.

 
GTVA Capella-era strikecraft outperform Shivan strikecraft. UEF strikecraft outperform GTVA Capella-era strikecraft & most TEI strikecraft too. The Ainsaari, with its stealth characteristics, antimatter cannon, and quad sidhes, is pretty much the UEF's apex predator (we never see one of the white guard fighters in action, they might outperform the legendary Ainsaari).

If not even the Ainsaari can sneak up on one of these bombers & give them a completely lethal antimatter-sidhe wedgie, the Shivans don't stand a chance.

Think about how much easier "Bearbaiting" and "A Time for Heroes" would have been...if you had an almost bottomless bay of trebs. It's not unreasonable to imagine the GTVA bomber engineers sitting down and saying "Okay, this procedure works for defanging a Sath. But it's really risky and difficult. Let's build a ship that can do it much more reliably."

Saths do appear to excel at shock-jumping targets (they certainly have the firepower for it), but let's also not forget that larger ships do not typically have the subspace agility of fighters. We have never seen a bomber shock-warp a target. I suspect it would be almost unstoppable, because bombers emerging too close to their targets in user-made escort missions is quite a game-breaker. Never mind that it's probably much easier to get a bomber into perfect firing position upon warpin, and bombers are probably much more sprint-drive compatible than comparatively huge & ponderous destroyers.

Perhaps most importantly, if blowing up Sath fleets en-masse is the GTVA's objective (and I can see no reason why it would not be), way better bombers & a destroyer full of them seems like the best way to do it. Bombers are always going to be way more agile, both in and out of subspace, and they will be able to safely approach the forward vector of a Sathanas.

At best, an Erebus might succeed in staying away from the beamspam-emitting parts of a Sath until it's dead, but even that didn't work well in "A Time for Heroes." If anything, that mission proves that in a one-on-one Erebus vs. Sath fight, the Shivans will easily turn an Erebus into a very expensive spray of fireworks.

That extremely close call also seems like it might have prompted the GTVA to take a step back, admit that the Erebus didn't work as intended, and precisely like ye olde Capella-era ships, is 100% dependent on its bomber wings to avoid imminent death.

Do you really need a destroyer-size spaceframe just to house all the Erebus' CNC stuff? The motivation for designing and producing the Erebus instead of a Gorgon super-bomber corps of identical cost seems increasingly political rather than practical, best summed up by a UEF pilot in "The Plunder":

"Maybe they need big ships to feel safe."

Unless of course, the more likely option is true: The Gorgon is not a super-ship at all. It's just a better Ursa, the Masyaf is going to be just fine, and the Gorgon pilot that scored the kill against a Fedayeen operator is the luckiest SOB in the Blue Planet franchise. At least, until that operator's wingman comes along and gives them an aforementioned antimatter-sidhe wedgie.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 09:15:56 pm by Erebus Alpha »
"Obviously the meson bomb is a form of cat-toast-device, with the buttered toast inverted, so that the cat and toast both fly in the direction of gravity much faster than expected. By introducing artificial gravity, a pair of cat-toast perpetual motion accelerator units can be made to collide with one another, and they produce an unimaginably devastating explosion. Both cats are named 'Meson'."

 - Wikileaks 2383

 

Offline Snarks

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While Fedayeen, the Masyaf is still only a frigate. I don't see how an advanced bomber destroying a frigate is revolutionary, much less extrapolating it to being a Sathanas slayer. TEI corvettes can already gut a UEF frigate easily.

The Ainsaari's most powerful asset is its stealth. If this can be nullified or mitigated (which it seems like the Gorgon might be able to do), then it's suddenly a lot less dangerous. All this says nothing about how the Gorgon would fare against vastly numerically superior numbers of Shivan fighters. Fighting the Fedayeen is one thing, but fighting the Shivan is another. The Gorgon might be the most powerful bomber in the entire GTVA, but that doesn't change the fact that the Shivans can pull out 80+ Sathanas. And it's worth noting that Shivan anima do adapt with the technological progression of their enemies, as noted by the presence of new Shivan ships in the Second Incursion. Even a lot of the existing Shivan strikecraft are noted to not be operating at 100%.

The GTVA is trying its very best to outmuscle the Shivans, but it is ultimately an untenable objective, which is probably one of the principle reasons why the Elders oppose the GTVA and probably why Shambhala exists.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Gorgons are AWACS which is handy dandy for fighting Ainsarii.

The Masyaf will be sufficiently damaged to enhance Steele's chances of success.

 
If the data on BP Wiki is correct, AWACS on these bombers can be easily countered with the UX Accelerator. Full 2000m of range, it's more than enough to just park your Asinarii at that range from the bomber and just spam these devastating rounds at it while Balor turrets can't hit you. The sheer size of the bomber would make it pretty easy...

And why does everyone get the impression that Masyaf gets killed by a pair of these bombers?
Excuse me for any spelling errors I make - I'm still learning English :P

 
I don't think the Masyaf dying off-screen would be very satisfying from a narrative perspective.

 

Offline QuakeIV

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Nobody said it dies off screen, they could easily cut back to it at any point and show it exploding...
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 02:12:14 am by QuakeIV »

 
And speaking of exploding Capitalships, given the aforementioned destroyer speculations of what gets killed, I find it more likely that the GTA to lose at least two of them during the next series of engagement of the story as they are in greater quantity to their Fed counterparts (also the fact of a generally older and lower quality force of them due to their aging). Historically, this has been the case and ultimate victory had still been achieved by that party involved with greater numbers.

 
Nobody said it dies off screen, they could easily cut back to it at any point and show it exploding...

Alright, fair enough - let me rephrase that. If the Masyaf goes down, I don't think it'll be to two bombers in a "oh, by the way" cutscene. It's just such an anticlimactic way for the Fedayeen, who are such a cool element of the setting, to be defeated.

Now, I could see it being destroyed in Act 4, possibly even to two Gorgons, but I can't see it happening in such an anticlimactic way. Losing the Masyaf should be a big deal to the player, yeah?

 
I never said that the Masyaf did, nor do I think she should in such a manner for the very reasons you stated (plus it wouldn't make sense for them to be that lousy at operation 'don't get murdered' so to speak), just to clarify in return.