Off-Topic Discussion > Arts & Talents

"739" or 0rph3u5' take on the Ancient-Shivan War

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--- Quote from: HLD_Prophecy on November 26, 2018, 01:23:50 pm ---If we're talking indigenous peoples though, it would be interesting to look at how the Nameless live, what their cultures were like, etc. I mean rather than just "oppressed races are oppressed" I mean do the Masters have any of these races they can reasonably point to as examples of savagery and degeneration (and thus extrapolate that degeneration to all the Nameless 'cause arrogance is arrogant), or are the Nameless all technologically, culturally, and morally advanced and the Masters are just like "lol savage b/cuz theyre different lol"

--- End quote ---

Well, there is still a lot of "canvas space" in each part and it would be great to fit more about the situation in the Empire in there, but I am not ashamed to say that my imagination has limits and that is certainly it... I mean, during the prep-missions in Part 1 you can do that, certainly all over Part 2 and further reinforce it around the decision point Part 3...

As for the attitudes of the Masters, I was trying to not go too far away from FS1 Ancients cutscenes which go straight from "encounterd" to "subdued or destroyed other sentient live" - Considering how matter of fact these cutscenes are played it is bit hard to find something canon there, but then again it also pivots quickly to "the Shivans are divine judgement" which might hint a certain megalomanical entitlement...

--- Quote from: Nightmare on November 26, 2018, 03:12:44 pm ---You could've tried to cut a few more ties and turn it into a more original plot.

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But then I would have had the power to change the ending and that would have taken all the challenge out of it :P
(I admit that I failed to provide a good resolution but think about the mechanics how to make a "loosing war" into a gameworthy story was the task after all (because normal rules of tragedy don't work with the interactivity of games per se) )

--- Quote from: Nightmare on November 26, 2018, 03:12:44 pm ---I just doubt that the Ancients would have allowed their slaves to pilot spaceships.

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Let me offer two counterpoints:
However for one that might presume a view on slavery that is "too modern", i.e. frames slavery only terms of manual labour - As a counterpoint, there are well documented instances of highly trained and highly regarded slaves in the Roman Republic and Empire; they were owned like property and had the repective legal standing but were also entrusted with autonomy of action and decision within the mandate from their owners, e.g. as revenue collectors.

The other thing here is that I don't neccessarily would frame a spaceship for the purpose of this story like we would, i.e. as technological achievment and significant expense. If it is not, consider it more a pike than cruise missile, then it works out.

--- Quote from: Nightmare on November 26, 2018, 03:12:44 pm ---While indegineous troops played an important role in maintaining order in the colonies for a number of reasons, their presence on the main battlefield of WW 1 and 2 was rather limited, compared with the number of white people.

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I am not going into that debate because ... well, this is hardly the place to debate that kind of issue with the depth and nuance it deserves. Heck, even among historians (remember I am writing my MA-thesis in History still) that's a hard project to establish, just because it requires getting quite divergent school of thought to the table, at least in the academic envoirnment I work right now (All Military Historians I know are of a very materialist-mechanistic persuasion ... which has its merits but is also prone to dismiss elements that are hard to quantifiy or fall below the threshold of statistical signifiance if you do)

--- Quote from: Assassin714 on November 27, 2018, 01:38:57 pm ---How are the ancient Vasudans going to figure into this?

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Ask :V: ... The Freespace Reference Bible is pretty vague on the how and when the Ancients had that fabled contact with the Vasudans ... I would always go the route that Ancients ship crash landed during events of Part 3, but I wouldn't elevate that from a background event...

@Orpheus: Quite right, you may not have the depth to go into the whole culture matter entirely. It just interested me that you compare the Masters to European imperialists. I mean in real life the Europeans met a diverse array of cultures, some of whom were quite innocent, others... well, to be quite honest I can't entirely blame the Spanish for wanting to get rid of an Aztec culture that ritualized human sacrifice, torture, and death worship. Dreadful society. Of course then you got Europeans going too far and extrapolating this savagery and thus lesser humanity to most if not all indigenous...

All I'd say is that it depends on how far you want to push the "European colonialist" comparison. Obviously this is sci-fi so it need not be in any way realistic to what us Earthlings experienced. But if you were going to tell people that this was some kind of an allegory... maybe the Nameless cultures should have some deeper investigation.

--- Quote ---you owe it to yourself and those still affected to bring in a diverse set of voices, so you are not just "mining" someone else's tragedy for dubious effect. And I have to admit I don't have contacts that could give me an understanding I would considered sufficient (= beyond academic).

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And what you said here was quite useful.

All that said that's just my historical mind working in overdrive and I hope not to be unfairly critical. This is your story!  :nod:  And it looks cool, really cool, I would have greatly liked to play this alternate ASW.

Iain Baker:
Very interesting. If you doubt you will ever get around to making it into a game, perhaps turn it into a story? With regards to the whole European colonialism thing, the vibe I got from reading it was that the ancient empire was more akin to the Roman empire than the later British/French/Spanish etc empires.

I always thought that the Ancients were much like reactionary 19th century Europe on the inside and super-Nazi to the everyone on the outside.

BTW, did the Roman Empire use slaves for their army, or atleast how many soldiers originated from the non-italian provinces?

Iain Baker:

--- Quote from: Nightmare on November 27, 2018, 04:34:09 pm ---I always thought that the Ancients were much like reactionary 19th century Europe on the inside and super-Nazi to the everyone on the outside.

BTW, did the Roman Empire use slaves for their army, or atleast how many soldiers originated from the non-italian provinces?

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Re slaves in the roman army. Not sure, although they did use a form of conscription from time to time. Re non-Italian troops - yes absolutely, they used troops from the areas they took over. How prevalent this practice was was dependent on the period - remember the Roman empire lasted a bloody long time. As I understand it, the use of non Italian troops in the Roman armies increased towards the end of the Roman era when they were in decline and needed any troops they could get.


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