Author Topic: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion  (Read 54086 times)

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
What did he actually say that provoked all of this? The way people are talking about it, it sounds like he openly admitted to be a member of the KKK or something.

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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I do think the honorable thing to do in this situation would be to resign, but let's also not pretend that removing Goober as admin wouldn't harm FS modding or magically make FS modding great again. Again, Inferno would not have released if he didn't grant me access and a testing board instead of me having to petition a ~high council of modding~ with a mission statement backed up by 3 honored members or whatever the actual process would have been. Removing Goober won't bring Battuta back, if what Aesaar posted in the last thread is to be believed - he left FS modding because of disagreements in what he was allowed to post in political discussion, not anything related to FS modding. I firmly believe that if someone leaves a modding community for a 20 year old video game over disagreements on political discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with modding a 20 year old video game, that's a problem with the person leaving.

I can't speak for how things went with your situation, but in general, I don't want anyone to feel like they have to jump through a dozen hoops and prostrate themselves in order to get something resolved.  If there's something that needs doing, then by all means, just ask an active staff member about it.  Either they'll handle things themselves, or pass it along to someone who can.

 

Offline Goober5000

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
My official response:

There are quite a lot of people with passionate opinions here.  I'm one of them.  As such, I found a false accusation of white supremacy to be extremely offensive.  For the record, I am not a white supremacist, and I disavow white supremacy.

And to clarify, I do not intend to bring legal action against anyone.  A description that something "is grounds for legal action" is not the same as a threat to actually take that action.

I do agree that the splitting and removing the thread was a violation of the principle of not moderating a dispute in which you are a party.  For that I apologize.  As I said in the internal board, I made two mistakes here: I misinterpreted an invitation to make a post as an invitation to take moderator action, and I did not double check before going ahead and doing it.

As MP-Ryan said, I have given my word that I will abide by the agreement we all reached.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Isn't it entirely possible to restrict moderation authority on GD and poldisc by unticking boxes, removing the doubt from people's minds that any potential to repeat exists?  It makes the agreement impossible to breach.

I'm being impartial and practical here.


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(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

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Offline The E

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
If that option existed, yes. It doesn't.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
And to clarify, I do not intend to bring legal action against anyone.  A description that something "is grounds for legal action" is not the same as a threat to actually take that action.

Then why bring it up in the first place? The first response you had to a post you found offensive was to demand it be removed with the stated reason that it was "grounds for legal action". Who was going to bring legal action against the website except you? Do you realize why everyone else in that thread, several people of whom were HLP staff, interpreted it as a threat? What I'm noticing from your apology is that you do apologize for what happened after MP-Ryan prudently locked the thread, but not for your actions that lead to the escalation of that thread in the first place.

I'm extremely concerned that as a justification for your actions you pointed towards the moderation policies of Gab, a website known for its far-right userbase. I hope you do realize the irony that after you got mad because someone pointed out that you support far-right views, you would then unilaterally employ moderation policies based on the actions of a company that itself holds far right views.

I implore you to read the posts of Galemp and Mjn.Mixael, people who have worked with you in the past, in this thread and PH's thread.


 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
If that option existed, yes. It doesn't.

That's fair, but if someone, using myself as an example is only able to moderate GD, can you not invert the process used to restrict my moderation to allow someone else to moderate everywhere but, GD and poldisc?
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
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Offline The E

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I, personally and speaking outside my role as moderator, don't think that this apology suffices. Why? Because this is, verbatim, what you posted in response to mjn:

This is defamation and libel, which is grounds for legal action.  Retract it.

You had several options in responding to mjn's post. One would be to ignore it as a piece of hyperbole. Another would be to report it to let other moderators take a look. Yet another would be, regardless of how improper it would have been for you to do so, to point to the forum rules and say that this strays close to questionable conduct. Had you taken any of these options, this matter would not have blown up as much as it did.
You chose to a) proclaim mjn's statement to be defamation and libel, b) mention that this is grounds for legal action and c) command mjn to retract that statement.
This is, clearly and very unambiguously, a threat. It is not a simple statement of legal fact (not that it actually is a legal fact, let's be clear on that); Your claim that you didn't intend to bring legal action is immaterial in the face of you very clearly trying (and failing) to use the threat of legal action as a tool to intimidate people into removing statements you did not like.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
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Offline The E

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
If that option existed, yes. It doesn't.

That's fair, but if someone, using myself as an example is only able to moderate GD, can you not invert the process used to restrict my moderation to allow someone else to moderate everywhere but, GD and poldisc?

The problem is that you apparently can't create a new role that is "administrator but without these specific powers".
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
What I'm noticing from your apology is that you do apologize for what happened after MP-Ryan prudently locked the thread, but not for your actions that lead to the escalation of that thread in the first place.

This is how my arguments with Goober have gone every single time over the years we've worked together. I'm honestly kinda done because this "official response" is exactly what I expected. It's whatever. If this is how Goober wants to burn relational bridges, that's his choice.
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Offline qazwsx

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Nothing in the "compromise" prevents Goober from threatening legal action again, and it's clear from his rules lawyering apology that he thinks the legal threat was fine. I wish the site leadership would stop trying to persue "Reasonableness" with someone who quite frankly can't be reasoned with.
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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Goober's apology is of course totally inadequate and admits fault only in the most tiny, narrow technical sense before immediately following up with a bunch of justification about how he "misinterpreted" other people and just made an innocent mistake. It's more or less what I expected, but the question for the other admins, Axem and MP-Ryan and others, is whether they ever had any standard for the 'apology' he would need to make to keep his powers to begin with. He clearly has no real idea what he's done wrong. Multiple people, including the person he most directly wronged, have rejected this apology. You can take that seriously and try to mend it or you can continue to tell us that it would be unfair to actually hold Goober responsible for his actions. Please, I am sincerely asking you: do the right thing here. Actually listen to the people who, as non-administrators, are subject to Goober throwing his weight around, the people who you gave no say at all in this compromise, and revise it.

Goober is unworthy of leadership in this community and it is an insult to every member of his site to let him keep a position of power and privilege over them.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
If that option existed, yes. It doesn't.

That's fair, but if someone, using myself as an example is only able to moderate GD, can you not invert the process used to restrict my moderation to allow someone else to moderate everywhere but, GD and poldisc?

The problem is that you apparently can't create a new role that is "administrator but without these specific powers".


That's fair, thanks for the clarification, I do often forget the distinction between mod and admin due to being on the mod side of the fence.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I still believe that pushing for the removal of an admin for GD/PD issues is the equivalent of getting an entire building demolished because someone doesn't like the color of its walls. Said walls can be repainted instead, and/or nobody is forced to look at them 24/7.

And I'm not saying the actions carried out can be justified or anything. Mistakes have been made. The point is that there's still a demand for resolutions which far outweigh the core of the issue that triggered them, especially in a productive community like HLP where a significant chunk of forum activity is still tied to keeping a 20 years old game alive. Many members are asking for something that, once applied, would somehow damage that productivity, and that'd be a bad move IMO.


We now have enforced moderation rules, an apology, and a well coordinated effort to prevent things like this from happening again. I don't see why people should still support a strict you-most-push-the-big-red-button policy on the matter.
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Offline 0rph3u5

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I found the ruling wanting...

Even the explanation from The_E that comes to down to an inadequacy of the platform does little to reconcile what I would have considered the desired outcome and the actual outcome (while it not an uncommon occurrence to find technical systems such as forum's software infrastructure lacking, it is hardly a desirable state - the discussion about which of the triplets Ignorance, Naivety or Negligence is most responsible is a horse we can all beat but only a few can lead to water).

... but I could have settled - certainly not comfortably but then again, I stopped expecting things make me comfortable way back.


But when what was billed as an apology arrived, it removed any basis for settling the matter – even in, admittedly relative, discomfort.

I admit that I don’t know Goober well enough to resolve the issue if this is the result of habit or calculation – him by circumstance being my point of contact when it comes to matters with the FSPort and often the first person I have contact with in my dealings with the SCP isn’t exactly a much of relationship.

While that question of intention may remain unresolved for me, the result is undeniable: What appeared is only effective at drying out the conversation. I didn’t except a fountain of empathy or understanding, but at least an acknowledgement of matters beyond the facts of the case. Retrospection surely could not have been this fruitless.

It fails to restore any degree of trust as is. Furthermore, the resolution of the question of intention into either direction is not to do such either – more so, if what has been presented proves to have been the result of calculation, it is disqualifying for position of public trust as it displays the desire to be unaccountable and poor judgement in the face of a demand for accountability.
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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
I'm still waiting for Goob to post an apology.  All I've seen from him in this thread so far are justifications and reinterpretations of posts in a thread that--haha!--remains inaccessible.  I rather thought Goob would pull this nonapology crap, but I figured I'd give him his chance before weighing in.

Goob escalated an argument and flagrantly abused his admin privileges to win that argument and cover his tracks.  That should be sufficient grounds for removing his admin status.  Given a second chance by way of this seven-point deal, he's already proven unable or unwilling to abide by those rules.

Aren't forum mods and admins supposed to hold themselves to a higher standard of accountability than the general userbase?  That's certainly not what I see Goob doing right now.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
My self ban to avoid arguing with Goober over the need to close churches in the middle of a pandemic expired guys! I'm back what's going on!!

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Oh

 

Offline EatThePath

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
My two cents: Ignoring the fact that normal users can't do everything he did, I expect that if it was a random schmo at the center of this instead they would have at minimum had a long ban from PD/GD, and possibly just been banned outright. I understand the tension that comes from wanting to keep core contributors to the community, but that level of double standard is distressing to me.

Beyond that, The E's response to the apology says most of what I would want to better than I would. This whole episode won't make me swear off FSO out of hand, but it's certainly discouraging and disappointing.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Regarding Goober5000 & Moderation in Political Discussion
Nothing in the "compromise" prevents Goober from threatening legal action again, and it's clear from his rules lawyering apology that he thinks the legal threat was fine. I wish the site leadership would stop trying to persue "Reasonableness" with someone who quite frankly can't be reasoned with.

Speaking personally, I have made it abundantly clear that the [vague] legal threat was not acceptable and the staff have made it clear that none of what occurred in this incident will be tolerated again.  There are changes in effect and they do, in fact, mean something.

In terms of the apology, while the staff did provide feedback on the first rough draft, the choice of what to write to sufficiently apologize was left to Goober, and people are free to continue to provide their [constructive, meaningful] thoughts on it - and he can address those thoughts if he so chooses.  This has never been an exercise in the staff "covering" for Goober, and to be perfectly frank (again speaking personally) I'm more than an little insulted by that supposition.  We collectively arrived at a compromise.  We don't like the situation or the compromise, but this was the best available path forward under the current circumstances.  Goober will obviously have to earn any goodwill or forgiveness he expects to receive, and absolutely none of us are saying any of what transpired was okay and that we support his behaviour.  This will not happen again.

As to the assertion that any other user who posted a vague legal threat would have been banned, it is flatly incorrect.  As a general rule, we do not ban users immediately for bad behaviour and have not for years.
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