[Admiral Nelson]

Having just gone through the task of setting all the FS1 and FS2 missions up to use Lightspeed's nebulae, I have come across a number of things I think would be useful enhancements to FRED/ FS2 post 3.6.9.

A means to rotate the entire background on its axis.  Right now one must laboriously reposition each and every background component.  This is intended to allow a background to be defined for a given system, which can then be rotated about to suit the mission designer's requirements without having to rebuild the whole thing.

The skybox is not displayed in FRED.

The "lighting from suns setting" doesn't produce the "white out" effect one gets in-game.  It is therefore a little hard to judge exactly how things will look without playing the mission.

The "White out" effect from stars does not appear to be related to a star's size on the screen.  I placed two tiny sized red stars next to one another, and found that they would completely white out the screen.  Pointing the nose at a single huge yellow star would only partially white out the screen.  This effect should be related to a given star's size and color.  A super duper version would allow specification of a star's spectral class, mass and absolute magnitude (which are known for nearly every system in the game).  FS2 would calculate the color and strength of the lighting and "white out" effect based on these inputs and the apparent size of the star in the background.

A kind of "thin" nebula effect.  This would be a "nebula" minus the heavy fog effect and distance culling.  One would see lowish density poofs coming at the screen; sort of cloudlike motion debris.  This would be useful for missions set inside rings or asteroid belts to simulate small bits of ice or rock.  It would also be useful in systems like Betelgeuse, in which the star really is throwing out huge clouds of matter.  Finally, for systems set in dark clouds such as Adhara, Talania or Ikeya, this effect would help to enhance the atmosphere greatly.

[Turey]

A means to rotate the entire background on its axis.  Right now one must laboriously reposition each and every background component.  This is intended to allow a background to be defined for a given system, which can then be rotated about to suit the mission designer's requirements without having to rebuild the whole thing.

I Agree.

A super duper version would allow specification of a star's spectral class, mass and absolute magnitude (which are known for nearly every system in the game).

The only problem with this is that some systems (e.g. Capella) have the wrong color/size stars.

[Admiral Nelson]

The only problem with this is that some systems (e.g. Capella) have the wrong color/size stars.

That has mostly been fixed....   The big one that hasn't is the mysterious disappearance of Capella Ab.  Evidently it just happens to always be on the other side of Capella Aa wherever you happen to be in the system....

[karajorma]

A means to rotate the entire background on its axis.  Right now one must laboriously reposition each and every background component.  This is intended to allow a background to be defined for a given system, which can then be rotated about to suit the mission designer's requirements without having to rebuild the whole thing.

Would be nice.

Of course you could just select all the ships at the same time and just rotate them

Might not work in SCP missions which are using the co-ordinates for something but it should work for anything else

[Shade]

Hmm. Could perhaps add shift-selection of multiple items in the background editor, and having any changes in pitch/bank/heading apply to all the selected bitmaps. It would allow a bit more freedom in case you'd want to move parts of the background but keep some things where they are.

[Selectah]

Oi,

I didn't know where else to post this, and it doesn't warrant a thread of its' own. So;

Isn't the FS1 "nebulae" code provided with the FS2 source? Why then isn't FS1 style nebulae presented as an option in the SCP FS? Alrighty then, I know that the standard answer is "because dude like nobody wants like that oooold stuff dude", but try to be a bit more verbose. I for one like the FS1 style backgrounds a lot. Every once in a while I almost long for the chilly and simple atmosphere that the FS1 nebulae provide. "Well then like dude play FS1 then like y'know dude", and all that, sure. I was just thinking. Such an option would present a nice break from all the neverending "Lightspeed's background stuff like rocks dude" missions.

Cordially,
~Selectah

[karajorma]

I'm not certain if the code is in there to make the FS1 style nebs work since I've never bothered to check (It's quite possible it was ripped out while making FS2).

I do know that this is the first time I remember anyone ever requesting that it was put back in though. So it's hardly surprising it's not been fixed even if it is possible

[taylor]

Isn't the FS1 "nebulae" code provided with the FS2 source?

Some of the code is there, so of it isn't.  I have already gotten it working for the icculus.org port of FS1 though, and Goober and I are probably going to add it to FSO at some point post-3.6.9.  It's certainly possible to get working but it's just not a very high priority thing to work on.

The main issue is that it also needs game palette files from the original FS1 data.  A lot of the gamepalette code is missing from FS2 (since it's not needed) and we don't really want to add it back in the same way since that's rather stupid to reimplement an 8-bit effect for an even more advanced game engine.  In order for all of that to work better we probably need to create a tbl/tbm for that so the palette can be specified by the mod maker, if they don't want to use one of the default color setups.  That way we get the old-style nebula effects, SCP upgrade style.

[WMCoolmon]

Please don't add another .tbl when you do it, we already have a nebula.tbl file.

[Turey]

Please don't add another .tbl when you do it, we already have a nebula.tbl file.

How about adding an additional section called "FS1 Nebulae" to nebula.tbl?

[Selectah]

How about adding an additional section called "FS1 Nebulae" to nebula.tbl?

That would seem the logical thing to do, of course. Like, if no entries are found then the default palette is used, and all that.

But yeah, the 8-bit palettes do make the FS1 nebulae a little bit harsh and non-graded. However, a 16-bit palette could easily be generated on the fly, couldn't it? I haven't checked the structure of the code, so I'm not 100% on that. Seeing as some palette issues being the only real obstacle to it being added, it would be a fun addition, I tell you that. As it stands now, 99.99% of all backgrounds in all missions are mere variations of the same old theme. I think.

Cordially,
~Selectah

[taylor]

The missing parts don't really have anything to do with the nebula though.  The FS1 style nebula uses that stuff, but it is/was part of the 8-bit interface code.  And what we are talking about having to add here is something like this (with a minimum of 27 different versions by default):

Code: [Select]

#define NUM_PALETTE1_01    768
char gamepalette1-01[NUM_PALETTE1_01] = {
'00', '00', '00', '07', '00', '00', '0F', '00', '00', '17', '00', '00', '1F', '00', '00', '27', '00', '00', '2F',
'00', '00', '37', '00', '00', '3F', '00', '00', '47', '00', '00', '4F', '00', '00', '57', '00', '00', '5F', '00',
'00', '67', '00', '00', '6F', '00', '00', '77', '00', '00', '7F', '00', '00', '87', '00', '00', '8F', '00', '00',
'97', '00', '00', '00', '13', '00', '00', '27', '00', '00', '3B', '00', '00', '53', '00', '00', '67', '00', '00',
'7B', '00', '00', '93', '00', '00', 'A7', '00', '00', 'BF', '00', '00', 'D3', '00', '00', 'E7', '00', '00', 'FF',
'00', '00', '3F', '00', '00', '7F', '00', '00', 'BF', '00', '00', 'FF', '00', '1F', '00', '00', '67', '00', '00',
'B3', '00', '00', 'FF', '00', '00', '3F', '00', '3F', '7F', '00', '7F', 'BF', '00', 'BF', 'FF', '00', 'FF', '00',
'08', '10', '10', '18', '31', '10', '20', '39', '20', '29', '52', '20', '39', '6A', '31', '39', '73', '41', '52',
'94', '5A', '62', '8B', '73', '7B', '94', '4A', '94', 'EE', '94', '9C', 'B4', '9C', 'C5', 'EE', 'C5', 'CD', 'CD',
'C5', 'DE', 'EE', 'E6', 'EE', 'E6', '08', '00', '00', '10', '00', '00', '10', '08', '00', '1B', '07', '00', '34',
'0F', '00', '4A', '1B', '0A', '7B', '30', '12', 'A7', '41', '1A', 'E8', '68', '2D', 'FF', 'B1', '4F', 'FF', 'F4',
'7E', 'FF', 'FF', 'B1', 'FF', 'FF', 'D5', 'FF', 'FF', 'EE', '04', '04', '04', '0B', '0B', '0B', '13', '13', '13',
'1B', '1B', '1B', '23', '23', '23', '2B', '2B', '2B', '33', '33', '33', '3B', '3B', '3B', '43', '3B', '3B', '43',
'43', '43', '4B', '43', '43', '4B', '4B', '4B', '53', '4B', '4B', '53', '53', '53', '5B', '53', '53', '5B', '5B',
'5B', '63', '5B', '5B', '6B', '63', '63', '6B', '6B', '6B', '73', '6B', '6B', '73', '73', '73', '7B', '73', '73',
'7B', '7B', '7B', '83', '73', '73', '83', '7B', '7B', '8B', '7B', '7B', '8B', '83', '7B', '8B', '8B', '8B', '97',
'97', '97', 'A7', '9F', '97', 'B7', 'AF', 'AF', '2B', '23', '23', '33', '2B', '2B', '3B', '33', '33', '43', '3B',
'33', '4B', '43', '3B', '53', '43', '43', '53', '4B', '43', '63', '4B', '4B', '5B', '53', '4B', '63', '53', '4B',
'63', '53', '53', '63', '5B', '4B', '63', '5B', '53', '6B', '5B', '53', '6B', '63', '5B', '73', '63', '5B', '73',
'63', '63', '73', '6B', '5B', '73', '6B', '63', '7B', '6B', '63', '7B', '6B', '6B', '83', '73', '63', '83', '73',
'6B', '8B', '73', '6B', '83', '7B', '6B', '8B', '7B', '73', '8B', '83', '73', '97', '83', '73', '97', '83', '7B',
'97', '8B', '7B', '97', '8B', '83', '3B', '33', '2B', '4B', '3B', '33', '5B', '4B', '3B', '5B', '53', '3B', '6B',
'5B', '4B', '6B', '63', '4B', '7B', '5B', '5B', '73', '63', '4B', '7B', '63', '53', '7B', '6B', '5B', '9F', '8B',
'6B', '23', '13', '13', '43', '3B', '23', '4B', '43', '2B', '53', '4B', '33', '63', '53', '3B', '1B', '13', '0B',
'3B', '2B', '1B', '3B', '33', '1B', '53', '2B', '1B', '43', '43', '3B', '53', '53', '4B', '5B', '5B', '53', '7B',
'7B', '73', '7B', '83', '73', '9F', '9F', '97', 'A7', 'A7', '9F', '2B', '2B', '23', '33', '33', '2B', '3B', '3B',
'33', '43', '4B', '3B', '4B', '4B', '3B', '4B', '53', '43', '5B', '5B', '4B', '63', '63', '4B', '63', '6B', '5B',
'6B', '6B', '5B', '6B', '73', '63', '43', '43', '2B', '63', '73', '4B', 'EF', 'DF', 'A7', '13', '13', '0B', '23',
'23', '13', '33', '33', '1B', '1B', '1B', '0B', 'CF', 'AF', '3B', '8B', '83', '1B', '0B', '0B', '00', '27', '27',
'00', '83', '8B', '83', 'B7', 'BF', 'B7', 'DF', 'FF', 'DF', '4B', '5B', '4B', 'BF', 'FF', 'BF', '97', 'FF', '97',
'0B', '2B', '0B', '3B', '43', '43', '4B', '53', '53', '53', '5B', '5B', '6B', '73', '73', '73', '83', '83', '7B',
'83', '83', '8B', '97', '97', '1B', '23', '23', '33', '3B', '3B', '4B', '5B', '5B', '63', '73', '73', '63', '7B',
'7B', '6B', '7B', '73', '6B', '7B', '7B', '63', '83', '83', '73', '8B', '83', '83', '97', '97', '7B', '9F', '9F',
'8B', '9F', '97', '8B', 'A7', 'A7', '53', '73', '73', '0B', '1B', '1B', 'DF', 'EF', 'FB', '43', '4B', '53', '53',
'5B', '63', '5B', '63', '6B', '63', '73', '7B', '6B', '73', '7B', '6B', '7B', '83', '6B', '7B', '8B', '73', '83',
'8B', '73', '83', '97', '7B', '8B', '97', '8B', '9F', 'A7', '97', 'AF', 'B7', 'AF', 'D7', 'F7', '7B', 'BB', 'F7',
'37', '57', 'A3', '4F', 'A3', 'F7', '29', '29', 'FF', '3B', '3B', '43', '4B', '4B', '53', '53', '53', '5B', '5B',
'5B', '63', '63', '63', '6B', '73', '73', '7B', '83', '83', '8B', '1B', '1B', '23', '23', '23', '2B', '33', '33',
'3B', '3B', '3B', '4B', '4B', '4B', '5B', '5B', '5B', '6B', '2B', '2B', '3B', '0B', '0B', '13', '0F', '0F', '2B',
'1B', '23', '53', '2B', '3B', '7B', '00', '00', '0B', '00', '00', '3B', '43', '3B', '43', '4B', '43', '4B', '5B',
'53', '5B', 'FF', 'FF', 'FF', 'FF', 'FF', 'FF'
};
Obviously, we want to avoid doing that.  We can't generate the palatte since there is no way to know before hand what it should look like, the palette is required (you don't even want to see what happens when you aren't using a palette, or the wrong palette), and that means that we either encode it in the binary, require the original palette files, or dump it into a table.  And remember, there is a different palette for each and every mission.

And per Selectah's suggestion of generating a 16-bit palette, that isn't an option.  The nebula files just don't work that way.  They were designed to function with a very specific 8-bit palette.  We could possibly upgrade it to use a higher color count, but I highly doubt that it would be worth the effort involved to do something like that.

[Selectah]

The FS1 style nebula [...] is/was part of the 8-bit interface code.

Ya, I gather as much.

We can't generate the palatte [..,] we either encode it in the binary [...] or dump it into a table. [...] Generating a 16-bit palette, that isn't an option.

OIC. I'm not entirely code illiterate, although the FS2 code is .., well, intimidating at first glance.

I highly doubt that it would be worth the effort involved to do something like that.

But... but... earlier on, you stated such:

I have already gotten it working for the icculus.org port of FS1 [...] It's certainly possible to get working

What gives?

Cordially,
~Selectah

[taylor]

My statement was that it's probably not worth the effort to bump to color resolution from 8-bit to 16-bit.  It would probably require too much work and would only affect a very small effect.  It would also not likely improve the quality enough to justify the work involved.

And I did already get the old style nebula working for the icculus.org FS1 port, but it's for an actual port, so the original data is already there for me to take advantage of.  The code is also setup to only do the old style effects.  For FSO we need to make it selectable, which makes it more complex to implement.  I didn't have to do anything overly strange to get it working, merely recode a bit of the gamepalette code so that it was useable once more.  The game required it for the nebula to work, but it doesn't serve much purpose otherwise since the interface art does move to 16-bit color and doesn't require the dedicated 8-bit palette that the old software/glide renderer required.

If we end up requiring the original palette files to get the nebula to work, then it will be a lot easier to implement.  But, it will all be hard-coded and not very flexible.  It will also require extra data to function so that's extra work on what ever mod/campaign that wishes to use the old-style nebula.  It's just too early to say how it will be implemented.  Goober and I can brainstorm on it when time allows and we'll hopefully come up with a solution which properly solves the problem without making modder life that much more difficult.

[Selectah]

the icculus.org FS1 port [is] an actual port

Ok, now I get it.

the dedicated 8-bit palette that the old software/glide renderer required.

Got it.

Goober and I can brainstorm on it when time allows and we'll hopefully come up with a solution which properly solves the problem without making modder life that much more difficult.

Ok, cheers.

Cordially,
~Selectah

[asyikarea51]

One thing I noticed about the editor in 3.6.8 compared to 3.6.9 is that you could change the nebula on-the-fly (i.e. no need to close the background editor window to see whatever changes were made).

Probably minor, but could it be changed back? Or was it put into a 'fixed' mode for stability reasons? (I do feel like there's a stability improvement when it was put to a fixed setting in 3.6.9, albeit still imperfect, so maybe that's why?)

I miss the FS1 nebulae. For FS2's case, if it worked, I'd think of it as a convenient drop-down box for adding a tinge of colour to the otherwise black, bland and near-starless "test" missions I use for ship testing... ... Must've been playing too many test missions over proper ones... Or maybe find ways to combine it with FS2 nebulae. Now there's a thought for myself... a background of a background?

Just my suggestions...

[taylor]

One thing I noticed about the editor in 3.6.8 compared to 3.6.9 is that you could change the nebula on-the-fly (i.e. no need to close the background editor window to see whatever changes were made).

It's something that is in Mantis.  It started being a problem when background lists were added, but I haven't really looked into that code since I had gotten rather sick of messing with it after I finally fixed it to work properly after I made it dynamic a while back (I had broken several things, mainly FRED, in the original upgrade and it took a while to fix everything).

Hopefully it's considered a must fix bug, but if Goober doesn't fix it in the next couple of weeks then I will, since 3.6.9 will be ready to come out by then.

I miss the FS1 nebulae. For FS2's case, if it worked, I'd think of it as a convenient drop-down box for adding a tinge of colour to the otherwise black, bland and near-starless "test" missions I use for ship testing... ... Must've been playing too many test missions over proper ones... Or maybe find ways to combine it with FS2 nebulae. Now there's a thought for myself... a background of a background?

FS1 nebula aren't the same as FS2's though.  The FS1 nebula are a set model (simplifying that a bit) which is then colored with a gradient.  You have to specify the particular nebula model (the *.neb files, of which there are 3 in FS1) to use as well as the color set to use on it (of which there is a specific list to choose from).  FS1 nebula are more like a FSO skybox than they are the FS2 nebula.

There is (or was, it was removed from the FSO code base) a small app to actually create/edit those .neb files, but I never have actually tried using it.

[Goober5000]

Hopefully it's considered a must fix bug, but if Goober doesn't fix it in the next couple of weeks then I will, since 3.6.9 will be ready to come out by then.

I intend to fix it.  I'm planning to take the week before Thanksgiving off, so it will get done then if not before.

[CP5670]

While we're on the topic, it's worth mentioning that FRED2 used to display the background skybox (starfield.pof or whatever) at one point but stopped doing that at some stage later on. It's only really worth mentioning since it was working in the past. (can't remember when though; at least several months ago)

Would be nice.

Of course you could just select all the ships at the same time and just rotate them Big grin

Might not work in SCP missions which are using the co-ordinates for something but it should work for anything else

That actually causes some problems with ships following waypoints, apparently because their z angles (relative to the waypoints) are not preserved.

I made one mission entirely around the y axis from the ground up in order to get the right orientation with the background. It's a bit of a pain to change any positions in it, but it works.

[taylor]

While we're on the topic, it's worth mentioning that FRED2 used to display the background skybox (starfield.pof or whatever) at one point but stopped doing that at some stage later on. It's only really worth mentioning since it was working in the past. (can't remember when though; at least several months ago)

It's on my todo list as I was already messing around with all of that code to get envmaps working in FRED as well.  I'll probably fix it this weekend, if not sooner.