[CT27]

To kind of sum up waht some in this thread have said so far, is this a decent summary of what people think the GTVA should do to try and win?

(in no particular order)


1-No more political assassinations
2-Don't charge in headlong looking to take out a Solaris
3-Work on taking out smaller UEF ships and supplies
4-Commit one more destroyer or two to Sol; Shivans may never come back but this is an important conflict where they could be used now
5-Don't try to force Vasudans into anything, maybe just ask for more logistical support
6-To avoid enraging the UEF population as much as possible, minimize the attacking of civilian targets unless they're vital to the UEF war effort somehow

[MatthTheGeek]

1- I'm pretty sure the Tev part of the GTVA is still in one piece thanks to assassinations and propaganda. Between the constant threat of the Shivans, friends dying against other Terrans in Sol, the economy at an every-time low, and Zods next door with a flourishing economy, the civilian Tev population is a powder keg ready to blow at any time.

2- Let's be honest : although the Tevs should of course try to avoid unnecessarily losses, they are not, contrary to the UEF, on the verge of logistical collapse, and, like Simms or I don't remember who said, they "can bleed corvettes left and right". Steele has shown with Darkest Hour that he is ready and willing to sacrifice a few ships to achieve important goals. If he gets an opening to wipe a Solaris out, he'll take it.

3- Yup. Like said before, the UEF is on the verge of logistical collapse. Anything that can aggravate that situation is welcome for the Tevs.

4- As stated several times in that thread or somewhere else, they can't just dispatch another destroyer to Sol. There is a logistical reason, because a destroyer battlegroup can't just pop in and get busy without supplies, ammo, fuel and whatnot, but if that was the only reason, I'm sure they could have found another Anemoi to take care of that. The real reason is : because Shivans can return any time, any place without warning, they need to ensure a sufficient military presence in their territory. Not only because of the threat alone, but to reassure the population ; after all, the GTVA's political strategy has always been to build a strong armada to defend their citizens.
They also can't afford to send a negative message by showing they can't handle a puny, crumbling fleet of pacifist and need to send several thousands more soldiers into the fray. Four destroyers in Sol is already a pretty large number, it's 1/6 of their fleet, and they're their best elements.

5- Steele has shown to be just as good in term of PR than he is on the battlefield, first by "letting" Severanti make his huge Luna mistake and get removed from command, and then by convincing the Zods to lend logistical support for a war they were originally trying to stay as clear from as possible. If he can pull the good strings to convince the Zods to lend more support without straining the relations between the two species, he will.
Another point being that the Zod admiral of the Shepseskaf was very quick and eager to "fall for it" and believe word-for-word what Steele spoon-fed him. I don't think all Zods share the opinion of the Emperor about staying away from the war. That Zod admiral might be of quite a belligerent nature, and try to find good occasions to beam some Feds.

6- That is true. The GTVA can't cover everything with propaganda, and they need to avoid worsening their image any further. Not to mention that officially, the GTVA considers all Terrans in Sol to be GTVA citizens under the oppression of the UEF, which means that killing civilians equals killing GTVA citizens.

[FireSpawn]

You forgot economic victory through the sales of Laporte's movie, Lesbian Space Warriors: Fireworks on the Flightdeck.

[MatthTheGeek]

We're trying to have a serious conversation here. Please get out.

[Mars]

Disregaurding the UEFs secret weapon, and anything else that's going on - if the GTVA continued on its current course changing absolutely nothing, they'd be looking at victory in weeks, months maybe.

[CT27]

Continuing on issue 4, it actually probably depends on what Byrne's secret project is.  If it's some sort of super destroyer (UESD), then they may be forced to send in more ships to Sol if they want to maintain their gains up to this point.

On the other hand, it also depends on what the Vasudans do in the next part.  If the Vasudans do send in more warships then the GTVA Terrans won't have to as much.

[Mars]

It won't be any super-destroyer. The BP team has specifically avoided such things.

Sending more ships to Sol would be a great way for the GTVA to lose - they're biggest problem is political tension. Imagine you lived in the US, and it was at war, with say. . . Europe. Our economy at this point sucks, it's hard for a lot of people to afford basic things. At this point the US has 42 supercarriers and. . . lets say 300 destroyers. . . all poised to stop an all out attack from the Martians. . . but we're fighting Europe because they have what the government calls a "totalitarian government."

This is all well and good more or less, except that the war in Europe has lasted quite a while - and lots of people aren't coming home, and lots of ships have been damaged. Everyone is rather nervous that the Martians will come at any second and wipe everyone out, so no one wants to see any more American forces committed to the battle.  When there's news of a destroyer being sent off to the Mediterranean, it's not such a big deal; there are lots of those, but what happens when the government announces it's sending more super-carriers?

[LordPomposity]

what happens when the government announces it's sending more super-carriers?

Absolutely nothing, if recent non-hypothetical wars are anything to go by.

[Dilmah G]

Well the one thing you fellas all should've noticed is that in these circumstances, you don't 'win'. You can destroy their force's centre of gravity, but the only solution there ever is to conventional warfare between such sides as these is a diplomatic, political one. All that needs to be done here is for one side to force the conditions that facilitate such a solution.

[QuakeIV]

I dunno man, if you blow up all of their ships they pretty much cant do ****.

[CT27]

but the only solution there ever is to conventional warfare between such sides as these is a diplomatic, political one.

I guess in the spirit of this thread that would be Sol accepting GTVA sovereignty?

Or another possibility could be an arrangement somewhat similar to today's China-Hong Kong relationship (Sol gets 'special administrative region' status)

[MatthTheGeek]

Wouldn't happen. The very point of the war is for the Tevs to get their hand on Sol's industrial and logistical power, which is roughly equivalent to the Terran half of the GTVA as a whole (probably a bit less now that several shipyards and logistical bases have been nuked, but still). Plus, they've been promising their citizens they'll be able to go to Earth and reunite their families, first for after the activation of the portal, and then for after the end of the war.

They'll need and they'll want a solid military presence in Sol. Politically, and economically, they can't afford to let a single bit of independence to Sol. Officially, Sol is already a GTVA territory under the occupation of the enemy (they justify it by saying Sol was a GTA territory and the GTVA considers itself the legitimate successor of the GTA, and is supposed to get all the former GTA territories per the BETAC, but of course what they really care about is the PR side and the economical and industrial power).

[-Norbert-]

what happens when the government announces it's sending more super-carriers?

Absolutely nothing, if recent non-hypothetical wars are anything to go by.

And was there any technologically and numerically superiour enemy that constantly threatens to invade the USA during those actual wars? Sending warships away from the defense is no problem for the USA, because they aren't under threat by hostile military forces, but rather by terrorists, which you can't really intercept with warships.
Mars on the other hand was talking about a scenario where the USA was threatened by a hostile military (the martians), which didn't happen in reality since WW2.

But if you're so stuck on non-hypothetical settings for those hypothetical scenarios, imagine the USA sending two carriers, who up untill then were tasked with protecting the pacific coast, to invade Argentina during WW2.

[Black Wolf]

We're trying to have a serious conversation here. Please get out.

GOODNIGHT!

[attachment deleted by a ninja]

[Dilmah G]

Wouldn't happen. The very point of the war is for the Tevs to get their hand on Sol's industrial and logistical power, which is roughly equivalent to the Terran half of the GTVA as a whole (probably a bit less now that several shipyards and logistical bases have been nuked, but still). Plus, they've been promising their citizens they'll be able to go to Earth and reunite their families, first for after the activation of the portal, and then for after the end of the war.

They'll need and they'll want a solid military presence in Sol. Politically, and economically, they can't afford to let a single bit of independence to Sol. Officially, Sol is already a GTVA territory under the occupation of the enemy (they justify it by saying Sol was a GTA territory and the GTVA considers itself the legitimate successor of the GTA, and is supposed to get all the former GTA territories per the BETAC, but of course what they really care about is the PR side and the economical and industrial power).

Ohhhh, you better have a look at that again dude.

[General Battuta]

Well, that's certainly a big part of the realpolitik reasoning for the war, isn't it?

[MatthTheGeek]

There is of course the "boo UEF are evil manipulators and brainwashers that are keeping all our former GTA citizens under their rule boo" part they have used in their propaganda, but the real objective of the GTVA from the very start (aka since they started building the Sol portal), aside from giving some hope to the population, was to get back all the industrial and logistical infrastructure that was lost in Sol when the jump node was severed.

And given the current state of the Tev economy after Capella, the construction of the Sol portal and 18 months of war, those critical ressources are all the more needed.

[Dilmah G]

Oh yes, that is true, I shall concede. I was looking at it from a POV regarding the Shivans and how the UEF fit into the GTVA's philosophy, but yes, you're right - mai bad.

[General Battuta]

I don't think it's the only real objective, but it's certainly useful, and it even dovetails with their broader mission of preparing for a third Shivan incursion at all costs.

[LordPomposity]

what happens when the government announces it's sending more super-carriers?

Absolutely nothing, if recent non-hypothetical wars are anything to go by.

Mars on the other hand was talking about a scenario where the USA was threatened by a hostile military (the martians), which didn't happen in reality since WW2.

But if you're so stuck on non-hypothetical settings for those hypothetical scenarios, imagine the USA sending two carriers, who up untill then were tasked with protecting the pacific coast, to invade Argentina during WW2.

So the question you're asking is what would have happened in WW2 if we had openly adopted a policy of leaving Japan for latter while we devoted the bulk of our strength to defeating a country that possessed a green-water navy that lacked the range to pose any real threat to our own territory?