Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: CP5670 on July 07, 2006, 12:04:45 am
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Command deployed the GTD Nereid to collapse the Vega-Capella node at the end of the campaign. By the time it enters the node, the final mission was over at least two minutes ago. However, in the ending Petrarch says that they sealed off the system anyway. So what I'm wondering is, why? What was the point of continuing with that plan when the supernova explosion had quite obviously vaporized everything near the node and would span the entire system within minutes?
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I always thought the supernova somehow damaged the node itself.
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Petrarch says "we sealed off the system," which would indicate that the Nereid did in fact blow up the node.
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If they didn't seal it, what's to stop another hundred juggernauts driving through the GD node and into GTVA space?
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The leftover gases would probably be super hot for thousands of years and no ship could go through there anyway.
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But why would they take the chance? Not to mention the negative PR the GTVA would get for deciding to leave a node open, thus giving the Shivan forces a chance - however ludicrously slim - of continuing the invasion. By collapsing the node, the GTVA has crushed any forseeable possibility of a Shivan return from Capella, and given the sad state the Fleet is in, and undoubtedly the morale of the greater GTVA, it would be utterly moronic not to deploy the Neried [no dumb-Command jokes to counter, please].
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The leftover gases would probably be super hot for thousands of years and no ship could go through there anyway.
Except spreading a solar mass across a system (or several light years) gives very low density, so the gas can be as hot as it wants and it's not going to mean ****. Some of the nebulae in FS2 were quite energetic (lightning bolts and all) and ships weren't melting left and right.
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The final cutscene shows us that the Deimos and Moloch have the ability to survive the initial blast wave from a super-nova
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Except spreading a solar mass across a system (or several light years) gives very low density, so the gas can be as hot as it wants and it's not going to mean ****. Some of the nebulae in FS2 were quite energetic (lightning bolts and all) and ships weren't melting left and right.
That makes some sense and may explain this issue. So would the system be open to travel immediately after the initial shockwave? Also, what will the gas density be like near the node (which is very close to Capella given the star's size in the missions)? I don't know a lot about supernovas and how their matter gets distributed, but I doubt it would be uniform throughout the entire system.
The ingame nebulas are actually exceptionally dense, although that was probably just done to make the gameplay more fun.
I guess what you said earlier actually brings up another question, why Command waited until sm3-08 to decide that they couldn't hold Capella and that sealing it off was the only option. If they had decided to do this when they detected multiple Sathanas warships at the end of sm3-04, could they have been able to seal off Gamma Draconis instead, before any of the juggernauts came through?
But why would they take the chance? Not to mention the negative PR the GTVA would get for deciding to leave a node open, thus giving the Shivan forces a chance - however ludicrously slim - of continuing the invasion. By collapsing the node, the GTVA has crushed any forseeable possibility of a Shivan return from Capella, and given the sad state the Fleet is in, and undoubtedly the morale of the greater GTVA, it would be utterly moronic not to deploy the Neried [no dumb-Command jokes to counter, please].
Well, I doubt they would care about the effects on PR when making these decisions. It wouldn't make much sense to expend all those meson bombs (which probably cost a ton of money) if they aren't actually needed.
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Well, I doubt they would care about the effects on PR when making these decisions. It wouldn't make much sense to expend all those meson bombs (which probably cost a ton of money) if they aren't actually needed.
Is money worth chancing extermination on an assumption that the Shivans can't and won't be able to navigate the fresh, nebular environment? What value would be had for keeping it open, anyway?
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The leftover gases would probably be super hot for thousands of years and no ship could go through there anyway.
The Shivans just blew up a star. If ever there was a point at which people are going to be paranoid about Shivan capablities, that point is now.
Also, the Neried was packed full of Meson Bombs, primed, and ready to go. There is no savings in holding it back; there are additional costs (unless you want to just leave it lying around) in safing and disassembly. Deployment cost nothing that had not already been spent.
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Is money worth chancing extermination on an assumption that the Shivans can't and won't be able to navigate the fresh, nebular environment? What value would be had for keeping it open, anyway?
Well, these are all assumptions in that sense. You could also argue that sealing off the systems won't contain the Shivans since they made intersystem jumps without using nodes in FS1. Actually, Petrarch even says "we must accept this strategy as nothing more than a temporary measure."
I think there may be something to what Pnakotus said about the nebula density though; it could be that after the shockwave it was possible to move ships through the nebula without any problems.
The Shivans just blew up a star. If ever there was a point at which people are going to be paranoid about Shivan capablities, that point is now.
Also, the Neried was packed full of Meson Bombs, primed, and ready to go. There is no savings in holding it back; there are additional costs (unless you want to just leave it lying around) in safing and disassembly. Deployment cost nothing that had not already been spent.
That shouldn't really matter. As I said earlier, I doubt the security council or whoever will close the node just because they're scared, if there is no (utilitarian) reason to do it otherwise.
As for prepping the Nereid being a sunk cost, that makes a lot more sense. I guess it depends on what other uses there are for the bombs and just how expensive they are to manufacture.
Anyway, I think you guys have suggested a few solid reasons why they might have done this, which is good because I needed that information for a mission I'm doing. :D
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They blew up. A f***ing. Sun. Fear is a powerful motivator, and hence i'm thinking Command wouldn't have even waited for the surviving civilian ships to exit the node before they bloody collapsed it! There is no doubt in my mind the Security Council and Command ordered the Neried deployed...
...Of course, given the potential scientific benefits of having access to a freshly-formed Nebula, as well as the economic prospects a nigh-on infinite supply Nebular gasses would hold, it wouldn't surprise me if a group, possibly the GTVI or some such, faked the deployment and then kept the site, and the still-open node, under lockdown to any non-GTVI personnel. Mmmm, I love the smell of conspiracy in the morning. :)
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For all command - or we - know, the Shivans planned to maraud through all of GTVA space, destroying every populated system, one by one......there's no reason for the GTVA to assume they'd stop at Capella.
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Good point. GTVA didn't really know what the hell shivans are capable of. As statet earlier, they blew up a ****ing star! How could they know what would start coming trought the node next? Even without the juggernauts, I doubt GTVA fleet would have been able to stop the shivans after Capella. You just can't take that kind of chances when there are two civilizations at stake. No matter how much pink swirling smoke you could get by leaving the node open.
No one in GTVA really knew what the hell was going on when Capella blew up. But they knew that blowing up the node was their only effective way of stopping the shivans.
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What you guys have to bear in mind, is that a node is just an entry to subspace, there were two remember, on e in Capella itself and the one in Vega. Respectively the Vega-Cappella node and the Capella-Vega node.
I assume they blew the one in vega after the Refugees exited subspace.....
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I don't think anyone was assuming that they blew the one in Capella.
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I know,.... Iknow. :(
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Judging from the CB anims, I'd say it's fair to assume that collapsing a node obliterates the whole subspace tunnel between the two stars.
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I dunno, Mebbe, mebbe not <suggestive>
Some have more than one exit dont they, like a normal lagrange point...... :confused:
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I dunno, Mebbe, mebbe not <suggestive>
Some have more than one exit dont they, like a normal lagrange point...... :confused:
Nope. Point-to-point.
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Well whoop-de-frickin-doo.
:sigh:
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I dunno, Mebbe, mebbe not <suggestive>
Some have more than one exit dont they, like a normal lagrange point...... :confused:
Nope. Point-to-point.
You sure? Quote from FS1: "There are dozens of star systems off of those nodes, and the Shivans will likely have to examine them all."
Given that about...40 star systems are on the GTVA Nodemap, and Admiral Wolf was talking about just a couple of jump nodes, this seems to say that at least some subspace tunnels have multiple exits.
It's moot anyway. You'd think that blowing up one entrance/exit would destabilize all of them.
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They blew up. A f***ing. Sun. Fear is a powerful motivator, and hence i'm thinking Command wouldn't have even waited for the surviving civilian ships to exit the node before they bloody collapsed it! There is no doubt in my mind the Security Council and Command ordered the Neried deployed...
...Of course, given the potential scientific benefits of having access to a freshly-formed Nebula, as well as the economic prospects a nigh-on infinite supply Nebular gasses would hold, it wouldn't surprise me if a group, possibly the GTVI or some such, faked the deployment and then kept the site, and the still-open node, under lockdown to any non-GTVI personnel. Mmmm, I love the smell of conspiracy in the morning. :)
I guess there was no point in waiting, as any civilian ship there would be doomed anyway. They would have probably waited for the ones already in subspace though, considering Petrarch's comment that "command is committed to getting every last Terran out of the system" (I won't get into why he didn't include Vasudans though, probably used to work for the NTF or something :p).
Fear is certainly a powerful motivator for an individual, but for the whole Security Council organization? It's a good thing they have the GTVI to keep their heads for them. :D
Good point. GTVA didn't really know what the hell shivans are capable of. As statet earlier, they blew up a ****ing star! How could they know what would start coming trought the node next? Even without the juggernauts, I doubt GTVA fleet would have been able to stop the shivans after Capella. You just can't take that kind of chances when there are two civilizations at stake. No matter how much pink swirling smoke you could get by leaving the node open.
No one in GTVA really knew what the hell was going on when Capella blew up. But they knew that blowing up the node was their only effective way of stopping the shivans.
Not exactly, considering that they are known to be capable of making jumps without nodes. Although I think if the Shivans can indeed move around in the system after the explosion, then it makes sense to close off the node. A "temporary measure" is better than nothing. The question was really whether the Shivans could do that even if they wanted to, but I think the answer to that could be in the affirmative if that nebula density thing is taken into account.
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They would have probably waited for the ones already in subspace though, considering Petrarch's comment that "command is committed to getting every last Terran out of the system" (I won't get into why he didn't include Vasudans though, probably used to work for the NTF or something :p).
No vasudan civilians in the system most likely.
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What's with the Vasudan civvy freighters escaping the system in the last mission then? You know, the ones carrying diaries
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Maybe they're military diaries :D
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Command deployed the GTD Nereid to collapse the Vega-Capella node at the end of the campaign. By the time it enters the node, the final mission was over at least two minutes ago. However, in the ending Petrarch says that they sealed off the system anyway. So what I'm wondering is, why? What was the point of continuing with that plan when the supernova explosion had quite obviously vaporized everything near the node and would span the entire system within minutes?
My guess would be that it was to make damned sure.
What's with the Vasudan civvy freighters escaping the system in the last mission then? You know, the ones carrying diaries
The journal in that cargo container is a Red Faction reference, actually.
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And descent...
unless there's a Dravis in Red Faction :nervous:
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The leftover gases would probably be super hot for thousands of years and no ship could go through there anyway.
Except spreading a solar mass across a system (or several light years) gives very low density, so the gas can be as hot as it wants and it's not going to mean ****. Some of the nebulae in FS2 were quite energetic (lightning bolts and all) and ships weren't melting left and right.
But those nebulae were millions of years old. This one is fresh and VERY hot. It takes VERY MUCH time for it to expand to the size of the older ones and to reah such low density.
NOTHING in a system survives a supernova....
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The final cutscene shows us that the Deimos and Moloch have the ability to survive the initial blast wave from a super-nova
The ships were fried and left as floating, useless hulks. (hard to belive that the crew survived either.. the temperature inside the ships)
And then came the second wave....
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But those nebulae were millions of years old. This one is fresh and VERY hot. It takes VERY MUCH time for it to expand to the size of the older ones and to reah such low density.
NOTHING in a system survives a supernova....
well that's what I originally thought, so I don't know. Is anyone here actually knowledgable about supernovas and could clear this up?
And descent...
unless there's a Dravis in Red Faction :nervous:
I wonder what he writes in his diary.
"It is not for me to dwell on the mistakes of others, but to correct them."
"Poor material defender!"
:rolleyes:
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one thing i know, subspace nodes are point to point. CBANIM's show it as that, and the missions that take place inside of nodes are like that.
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Plus if they're not point-to-point The King's Gambit becomes rather ridiculous.
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I say again:
Admiral Wolf: "There are dozens of star systems off of those nodes, and the Shivans would likely have to examine them all..."
And descent...
unless there's a Dravis in Red Faction :nervous:
Didn't Dravis die, though? I know he does in the books, didn't ever finish D3. And Red Faction was supposedly after that, and was originally titled "Descent 4".
The final cutscene shows us that the Deimos and Moloch have the ability to survive the initial blast wave from a super-nova
That wasn't a blast wave that was a heat wave. There's a signifcant difference.
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Didn't Dravis die, though? I know he does in the books, didn't ever finish D3. And Red Faction was supposedly after that, and was originally titled "Descent 4".
There are Descent books? :eek:
Yeah, he gets pumped with guidebot flares at the end of D3.
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Yeah there are a trilogy, based on the games but with a much better story. They are by author Peter Telep.
And Dravis dies the same way in the books BTW.
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There are dozens of star systems off of those nodes just means that there's a couple of systems with more than one node in it which happens all the time in fs
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well that's what I originally thought, so I don't know. Is anyone here actually knowledgable about supernovas and could clear this up?
I did actually submit a question along those lines to Ask An Astronomer a while back. The answer I got was that the nebula would remain hot for hundreds if not thousands of years. Unfortunately I didn't get much more info than that.
Maybe someone should submit the question again in a bit more detail :)
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should have asked the astronomer on the rate of expansion of the nebula
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Well, nebulas almost always emit X-rays, so I would guess they're pretty damn hot.
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I'm reading on wikipedia about supernovas to figure something about this and just noted something interesting, it says that: '' there are two possible routes to their formation. A massive star may cease to generate fusion energy from fusing the nuclei of atoms in its core and collapses inward under the force of its own gravity, or a white dwarf star may accumulate material from a companion star until it reaches its Chandrasekhar limit and undergoes a thermonuclear explosion . In either case, the resulting supernova explosion expels much or all of the stellar material with great force.''
Now this part is especially interesting:
''a white dwarf star may accumulate material from a companion star until it reaches its Chandrasekhar limit and undergoes a thermonuclear explosion''.
This maybe what the shivans did to Capella, but I didnt find any informationg to see if the Capella star is a white dwarf. Nevertheless I think its one most possible explanations to the whole thing.
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IIRC Capella is actually a system of four stars, two yellow giants and two red dwarfs.
I read the wikipedia description yesterday too. It says the material is blown off at up to 10000km/s, from which we may be able to get a very rough estimate of the nebula density if we know the star's mass. Although the stars in FS2 seem to have no resemblance to the real ones so it's hard to determine that.
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Well, the star that the shivans target is a yellow giant. On stellar classification it says that the mass of a star with the yellow color is 1.1 but I've got no idea as to what that means. :confused: But it says that the real Capella is on class G along with our Sun.
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1.1 refers to how massive it is in comparision to our Sun. The Sun has a mass of 1.0.
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I'm reading on wikipedia about supernovas to figure something about this and just noted something interesting, it says that: '' there are two possible routes to their formation. A massive star may cease to generate fusion energy from fusing the nuclei of atoms in its core and collapses inward under the force of its own gravity, or a white dwarf star may accumulate material from a companion star until it reaches its Chandrasekhar limit and undergoes a thermonuclear explosion . In either case, the resulting supernova explosion expels much or all of the stellar material with great force.''
The Supermassive-Star-Dying method is called a Type-II supernova, while the White-Dwarf-Accumulating-Gas method is the Type-I. They can determine the type based on the rate at which the explosion loses luminosity over time afterwards. Also, a special note about the Type-I, the explosion results in the complete destruction of the white dwarf star, while the Type-II results in a neutron star being created (typically).
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The final cutscene shows us that the Deimos and Moloch have the ability to survive the initial blast wave from a super-nova
That wasn't a blast wave that was a heat wave. There's a signifcant difference.
[/quote]\
Same thing basically. Same effect neways.
They would have probably waited for the ones already in subspace though, considering Petrarch's comment that "command is committed to getting every last Terran out of the system" (I won't get into why he didn't include Vasudans though, probably used to work for the NTF or something :p).
No vasudan civilians in the system most likely.
IIRC, there was vasudans, but the majority was Terrans. Mostlikely so little, as they would not need to mention the vasudan population in that system.
I just re watched the DiveDiveDive vid (google>vid>freespace). I always wondered, what if a ship jumped into a node from both ends. What would happen?
One answer may be 'yo will see them comeing twards you and go past you, if your in a subspace tunnel' ya know. In our subspace mission, imagine ships like that, but also going opposite ways. But i doubt that, as there woudl be subspace battels all the time, or Mjolre beams placeed inside subspace on a constant warp to destroy enemy contacts early. Meh ignore last comment.
The other would either be, the ships would collide and explode, or be defected\mutated. Or you just would pass through and not see the ship. It would happen unknowingly.
What do you think?
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Apparently they wouldn't go into the same tunnel without doing something special, considering that tracking the Shivans into subspace was such a big deal in FS1.
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I'd imagine that's it's something as simple as when two ships pass each other in any direction at warp speed in star trek. Or something like how ships share ftl jump codes and coordinates together in bsg.
Another thing, i think it's safe to say that ships share the same jump tunnel period, and that was not a part of being able to track ships into subspace. Otherwise how would alpha one and his buddies be able to catch up to the lucifer in the node to sol in fs1? Being able to track ships in subspace from outside of subspace is a big deal in fs1, and a different matter at that.
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This maybe what the shivans did to Capella, but I didnt find any informationg to see if the Capella star is a white dwarf. Nevertheless I think its one most possible explanations to the whole thing.
I doubt it. Capella has no white dwarfs and the red dwarfs orbit 11,000 AUs (1 AU = 92 million miles) from Capella's two yellow stars. If one of them had gone supernova you'd only have noticed 63 days later.
Besides :v: obviously didn't have good knowledge of astronomy as they refer to the Capella Star even though there are four stars in the Capella system.
On top of that if you watch the cutscene it's pretty obvious that it's the main star the Shivans are surrounding which explodes.
Finally even if we ignore all that I don't see any good reason why this is a better explaination than any other. If the Shivans had the technology to make a type I supernova they probably have the technology to make a type 2.
Well, the star that the shivans target is a yellow giant. On stellar classification it says that the mass of a star with the yellow color is 1.1 but I've got no idea as to what that means. :confused: But it says that the real Capella is on class G along with our Sun.
Both Capella A and Capella B are more than 2.5 times the mass of Sol. More data here (http://www.stellar-database.com/Scripts/search_star.exe?Name=capella) and here (http://www.solstation.com/stars2/capella4.htm)
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[...]
One answer may be 'yo will see them comeing twards you and go past you, if your in a subspace tunnel' ya know. In our subspace mission, imagine ships like that, but also going opposite ways. But i doubt that, as there woudl be subspace battels all the time, or Mjolre beams placeed inside subspace on a constant warp to destroy enemy contacts early. Meh ignore last comment.
The other would either be, the ships would collide and explode, or be defected\mutated. Or you just would pass through and not see the ship. It would happen unknowingly.
What do you think?
hi,
i thinks to place mjolre is first a bad idea, if they destroy ships inside the node and second: i think the subspace have many dimensions.
before the alliance find the ancient device it´s was impossible to local the right dimensions in where a ship travel through the subspace.
now you can check if there first a ship and if yes which dimensions its use.
so you can first tracking a ship in the subspace and second you can take another dimension so that you doesnt collided in the subspace.
thats my minds over this.
Mehrpack
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Quite simply put to charismatics quote there, is that there is subspace battles all the time. Battle with the lucifer was one of them. After that, gtva usually doesn't fight in subspace tunnels very often, but i'd imagine that it happens for a ton of other people in the galaxy like pirates versus the transport.
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hi,
mhh i think maybe the problem is, that each fight do destabiles the subspace tunnel itself.
every weapon they fire, every ship that destroyed and maybe every use of subspace itsself.
maybe so the GTVA and any other normal person doesnt fight in subspace tunnels, then a node that to instable to travel and cutting of a star system.
but its possible that pirates or fanaticer attack in subspace, they doesnt bother if the whole tunnel blowing up.
but maybe theres another question, will fight the shivan in subspace normaly or only if this really neccesary, like the attack on the lucifer?
Mehrpack
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Uh i only understood half of what Mehrpack said. Il move on.
Well what do you think is more likely. Several subspace dimentions\tunnels per node, so they dont see eachother of they both jump on opposite sides of a node. Or wil they see eachother or colide?
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Well what do you think is more likely. Several subspace dimentions\tunnels per node, so they dont see eachother of they both jump on opposite sides of a node. Or wil they see eachother or colide?
That's actually a very good question. I believe that ships that enter a node, but are not "in sync" with each other, would not see each other or be close to each other in subspace. If they were, then why would there be such a big deal in FS1 about being able to "track ships into and inside subspace"? That would also explain how Alpha 1 and the attacking fleet was able to get close to the Lucifer at the end of FS1, even though they entered the node several minutes after the Lucy did.
Also, I believe someone asked how fast the shockwave from a supernova travels, and the answer is that at first, the expansion rate can be up to several percent of the speed of light, varying depending on the star. The shockwave will slow down eventually as it spreads through the interstellar medium, and give off a fair amount of high-energy radiation in the process as well. The real killer, however, is the enormous amount of gamma and X-ray radiation that travels out at the speed of light once the supernova begins. That radiation is lethal to anything for a good hundred light years or so, depending on how energetic the supernova is. Mmm, crispy fried. (Not really... more like having your DNA torn apart, which would be just as bad).
Ooh, a cool picture of supernova 1987A to finish off this post.
http://www.xtec.es/recursos/astronom/hst/sn1987a_.jpg (http://www.xtec.es/recursos/astronom/hst/sn1987a_.jpg)
Notice the bright, central ring. That's the supernova shockwave plowing into material that was previously ejected by the star. (Circular shockwaves FTW) :D
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Subspace is n-dimensional; the problem goes deeper then being merely in sync, but to the point of ships using the same node not necessarily being in the same subspatial dimension.
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Ahah, leading to the capellan nova opening a node to another universe theory..
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Uh i only understood half of what Mehrpack said. Il move on.
Well what do you think is more likely. Several subspace dimentions\tunnels per node, so they dont see eachother of they both jump on opposite sides of a node. Or wil they see eachother or colide?
hi,
sorry, yeah i know my english is terrible ....
quote the text where i write senseless english and i will to make it better *g*
Mehrpack
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Nevertheless it says somewhere in FS1 that the PVN and GTA had already fought inside subspace nodes and that the consequences were horrible enough that both sides never did this again.
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hi,
i doesnt can remember that in FS2 somewhere that anybody say, and if yes, why then need the GTA and the PVN the ancident device to tracking the subspace activity if they can fight in subspace??
thats seems not logical.
Mehrpack
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He said in FS1, not FS2; but I can't remember that either.....
Also, the subspace tracker would still be nice in figuring where ships are jumping to, even if your not planning on subspace interception.
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How does one go about tracking a ship through subspace. What side is the tracker? Id figure it would be installed on normal sensors of ships in FS2 tho. But how did they track ships through subspace anyways?
If the shivans came from a near system or planet, previously unexplored, but close to the GTVA territory, ya know, the 80+ Sathi, why the hell would they want to 'open a node to another universe' when like, near all, ro a large portion of them are already in the same universe\system as the GTVA? Would seem senceless..
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Dude, it's Ancient tech. You'd do just as well asking just how the hell the Knossos works.
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Idk why people are dismissing the fighting within a node. It's happened at the last mission of fs1, even when you jump several minutes after the lucifer. Not to mention the thing in fs1 where it said that the pvn and gta had some subspace fights.
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He said in FS1, not FS2; but I can't remember that either.....
Also, the subspace tracker would still be nice in figuring where ships are jumping to, even if your not planning on subspace interception.
hi,
hups hit the wrong key, i would writing FS1 but instead get the 2 and doesnt noticed it *grrrr*
ähm no, that make not scene if the tracker only is to see where ships jumping to a point, the subspace a streets between the stars.
and i think its pretty clear to see in the story of FS1 that without the tracker and the informations over the shield of the lucifer the GTA/PVN hadnt any chance to destroy the lucifer.
the tracker had allow the GTA fighters to fellow the Lucifer in the Subspace and attack it there.
theory for subspace tracking: maybe you need to jump in the subspace maybe a specific subatomar vibration, which allow you to enter the sub dimension of the subspace.
the tracker can detect the frequency of the vibration and you can set your own vibrationfrequency on this frequency too.
so you can enter the same sub dimension.
and maybe so can you differentiate your own forces and the enemy forces.
what do you think?
Mehrpack
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I think that only larger ships have the ability to track others ships on subspace, its show that only command tracks ships (as far as I can remember) but a destroyer, corvette and, of course, AWACS class ships must have sensorial equipment to be able to do that, cruisers, due to size, wouldnt have something that advanced. But this technology was only discovered in the end of the great war, so its possible that its not that advanced, I mean, to an incredible level were you can say where a ship is going as soon as it jumps out. Also if there is the ability to track, there must be the ability to block the tracking, an AWACS ship should be able to do this but is a guess.
For the fight within a node, for the sake of preserving the node so it can remain stable for any kind of trafic (civillian and military), both the PVN, GTA and later the GTVA wouldnt employ ships to fight within an node unless it was something desperate like the Lucifer, but on the Lucifer's case, with the knowledge that they had then the GTA wouldnt have know that its destruction would've sealed the node and as soon as they saw what the destruction of the Lucifer did they must have clearly realised what something happens when you blow things in a node, perhaps this was one the reasons as to why the Meson bomb was developed.
As for how ships move in subspace, I have no idea. :P
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The last part of what Mehrpack last said is actually a good idea. Id have to agree with it as well.
The 'ability to block' also is a good idea, but i think GTVA has not reached that technology yet. As they did not spread the tech, if they had it, to all their ships yet, or annoucnce it for the matter.
Sarafan, no there was fights in subspace. The Lucifer is an example of why. Lucifer had 5 ****ing reacters FFS, That energy when exploded cauzed the node to collapse. Regular ships explodeing in a node dont destroy it. Thats why they pack the Neriod with MESON BOMBS in order to collapse it.
And the meson bomb theory you suggested is interesting as well. It may have been a reason for its developement, as its not that much of a tactical weapon. Dont use em in battle do we? :D
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As for how ships move in subspace, I have no idea. :P
If you accept the "layered space" theory, then moving in subspace should be no different than moving in normal space. As to why it's so much faster, subspace is more compressed than normal space, so 1 kilometer traveled in subspace equals millions traveled in normal space.
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I know there already were fights in subspace but due to the damage that it can cause to the nodes its not done anymore. :)
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I bet for the gtva learning about the tracking technology, was probably no more than fine tuning and modifying they're sensors to be able to track ships in subspace. They just learned how to do it from the ancients archive. Most likely it was not an actual device to be able track ships in subspace. Why make a technology that your radar and sensors already do, just fine tune and modify them to do something else like gain lock on shivan ships, or tracking ships through a node. I bet tracking a ship through a node would requires quantum mechanics. And if ships do need to have the same vibration to enter a node and stay in formation within a node, then the pvn and gta already had that technology called a jump drive. Oh i need to change my jump drive vibration to match his, ok, i'll tell the computer to change it for me if it hasn't done it automatically.
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[...]
Sarafan, no there was fights in subspace. The Lucifer is an example of why. Lucifer had 5 ****ing reacters FFS, That energy when exploded cauzed the node to collapse. Regular ships explodeing in a node dont destroy it. Thats why they pack the Neriod with MESON BOMBS in order to collapse it.
[...]
hi,
yes maybe, but maybe they node need time to countervail the energy they set free a exploding ship.
if to many ships explode in a short time in a node, maybe the node will go instable too.
i think its not really the question: one great explosion or many little explosion.
i think its more the energy they set free the explosion, which destabilize a node.
and maybe older nodes need more energy to go unstable as young nodes.
I bet for the gtva learning about the tracking technology, was probably no more than fine tuning and modifying they're sensors to be able to track ships in subspace. They just learned how to do it from the ancients archive. Most likely it was not an actual device to be able track ships in subspace. Why make a technology that your radar and sensors already do, just fine tune and modify them to do something else like gain lock on shivan ships, or tracking ships through a node. I bet tracking a ship through a node would requires quantum mechanics. And if ships do need to have the same vibration to enter a node and stay in formation within a node, then the pvn and gta already had that technology called a jump drive. Oh i need to change my jump drive vibration to match his, ok, i'll tell the computer to change it for me if it hasn't done it automatically.
its hard to say, its only fine tuning or more.
but i think too its was the last part of the puzzle to find ships in subspace, for the GTA/PVN.
because its in a war a great adavance if you can detect enemy ships they approaching your position and attack you and they doesnt need much time to implant the technologie in the fighters/warships.
Mehrpack
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Without the tracking technology you couldn't fight in subspace, unless your ship was physically attached to that of your opponent. Which would be odd, to say the least.
General consensus on the tracking technology is that it is only useable by larger craft, and it can only track objects that the larger craft observed entering subspace; if a ship has already entered subspace and there was no craft with tracking technology around to observe it do so, it cannot be tracked.
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I would bet that smaller ships like fighters can't track ships into subspace. Just because smaller ships can't do it, doesn't mean that the bigger ships need to have a whole new device on board to be able to do it. You don't quite need to have a new piece of technology to track ships through subspace. To track things through subspace first formed as an idea, and then became an appliable method. It could be that only the bigger ships can track ships through subspace because they have bigger and much more powerful sensor arrays along with knowledge of the ancients to learn how to track things through subspace by modifying them.
I don't see how tracking technology is necessary for following ships in subspace. The subspace tracking technology was only necessary for being able to track ships in subspace from outside of subspace. Remember in the end of fs1, they learned two things, which was how to track ships through subspace, and that the lucifer's shielding didn't work in subspace. Nothing even close to tracking technology is necessary for physically following a ship into subspace.
And nightmare, what a horrible consensus technology you described as necessary for subspace tracking. What's the difference between a larger vessel witnessing a ship going into subspace versus not witnessing it going into subspace.
FighterPilot: sir a ship has jumped out using the knossos...track that ****er.
Command: ok well, since we, the bigger ship didn't witness it, we can't use our heavily advanced technology to track it.
FighterPilot: i witnessed it, it's going to the ****ing nebula beyond the gamma-draconis knossos here
Command: well kudos for you
A bigger ship needing to watch a ship jump out to be able to track is next to bull**** nightmare :lol:
Something rings of being able to use you're own head to figure out where a ship is going versus bogus technology. Why can't subspace tracking be like normal radar tracking? Except that it'd probably make use of quantum mechanics being needed to track a ship outside of normal space(effectively tracking a ship outside of space time and pretty much in a different dimension of space).
You know in fs1, when the taranis was captured, the only shivans present to witness that was the disabled and downed comm. of the taranis. That **** got tracked through subspace by the shivans without witnessing it no problem.
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Shivans must have some advanced warning technology.
Man, fighters cant track in subspace. And, no we cant track ships that are on their way to our position. You know in near every mission, shivans come to attack us, and we dont want them too. The nearest warning is 'shivans may mostlikely be there' and 'in comeing jump signatiure, hostile configuration'. If we knew b4 every attack it would have been a easy victory IMHO. You know how many suprize attacks we have had agienst our ass?
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Yes, we can track them, first mission, what command says:
We are now tracking the vessel through subspace. We have vectored its course to your immediate vicinity.
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We are now tracking the vessel through subspace. We have vectored its course to your immediate vicinity.
It just ran a blockade. So it was observed entering.
I don't see how tracking technology is necessary for following ships in subspace. The subspace tracking technology was only necessary for being able to track ships in subspace from outside of subspace. Remember in the end of fs1, they learned two things, which was how to track ships through subspace, and that the lucifer's shielding didn't work in subspace. Nothing even close to tracking technology is necessary for physically following a ship into subspace.
And nightmare, what a horrible consensus technology you described as necessary for subspace tracking. What's the difference between a larger vessel witnessing a ship going into subspace versus not witnessing it going into subspace.
FighterPilot: sir a ship has jumped out using the knossos...track that ****er.
Command: ok well, since we, the bigger ship didn't witness it, we can't use our heavily advanced technology to track it.
FighterPilot: i witnessed it, it's going to the ****ing nebula beyond the gamma-draconis knossos here
Command: well kudos for you
A bigger ship needing to watch a ship jump out to be able to track is next to bull**** nightmare :lol:
Something rings of being able to use you're own head to figure out where a ship is going versus bogus technology. Why can't subspace tracking be like normal radar tracking? Except that it'd probably make use of quantum mechanics being needed to track a ship outside of normal space(effectively tracking a ship outside of space time and pretty much in a different dimension of space).
You know in fs1, when the taranis was captured, the only shivans present to witness that was the disabled and downed comm. of the taranis. That **** got tracked through subspace by the shivans without witnessing it no problem.
Here's the breakdown. Every single time you have been warned there is an inbound enemy vessel it has just run a blockade and/or was engaged with GTVA forces at the other end of its jump; at all other times they arrived unannounced. (Ships in the nebula did not jump in under most circumstances, but instead used no-warp to create an impression of just entering sensor range; hence the AWACs forewarning is not valid.) We've never been forewarned of an enemy ship's arrival that wasn't watched entering subspace by other GTVA ships. This actually makes a good deal of sense.
Subspace is n-dimensional. We don't know what "n" is, but it's safe to say it's pretty large. (Otherwise you could simply dispatch multiple wings to check each and then send in the strikefore once you know the right one, in Good Luck, thus invalidating the tracking technology.) A ship that jumps at the same place as a previous one will not end up on the same subspatial dimension as the one that jumped before it (otherwise the tracking technology is again rendered moot); so far as we know there is no way to effectively "follow" another ship into subspace without the tracking technology (or possibly their having communicated their drive settings to you). You can enter after them from the same place, exit after them at the same place, but you won't be in the same place in subspace as they are. This randomization effect means one of two things: either we're screwing with things we don't really understand and can't control, or it's an intentional tactic. If we could not control it somehow then Good Luck is an impossiblity; hence it must be intentional.
It's furthermore dimensional; this implies very large barriers, ones impermeable to sensor technology. Our understanding of the subject is limited, but it may well be that once in subspace it's not truly possible to "change course"; no matter which direction you go in subspace you're going to end up at the end of your plotted jump. Once in subspace you are gone. There is no sign of you in normal space. You have to be seen entering your jump corridor; the tracking technology probably has more to do with analyzing the entry signature, vector, and speed, then actually physically tracking the ship.
Shivans subspatial tech > GTVA subspatial tech. That's a given. So, faulty analogy.
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Well, how is that actual subspace tracking technology? The ship needs to be seen leaving the theatre it was already in so that people know that it left, the direction it was going in, and it's speed. The doesn't require even require any special technique to track a ship through subspace. Besides, knowing it's vector and speed does not tell you when the ship will drop out of subspace.
The gtva said they were tracking a ship through subspace, which means they would have had to do some actual tracking through subspace. Otherwise stuff for zods and terrans are like how they were in fs1. You're able to vector a ships course by watching which direction it jumps at and it's speed. But vectoring it to the point in which it arrives to it's destination in normal space requires actual tracking while in subspace. Without tracking, you don't know how long that ship that jumped out intends to spend inside of subspace, you don't know if it'd be making a short jump, or a long jump.
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@no-one in particular.
There cant be that many exits on paralell vectors if you guys think about it.
Also In mission one the Belisarius had to be in system already when it jumped. And if you draw a bead on its heading and in a (arguments sake ballpark figure) 5 light year course of space theres only one planet with refugees and d estroyer, I reckon its a safe bet hes gonna go there....... ;)
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That's still not using tracking technology, that's just crunching some math from the speed of the vessel, hunching where it's going, and making a bet. As far as i'm concerned, a vessel doing an in system jump can drop out of subspace whenever it wishes(not based on particular exit points but random exit points), completely different than having to go through a node. When you make a jump in system it's not confined to going through a node but rather confined to the system.
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Ok, well i just had a brain fart, assuming that the GTVA can navigate subspace in the first place, It stands to reason they can detect it [obviously] and if they can detect it whos to say they cant use some sort of installation bound or cap bound *subspace radar* like a toned down awacs (sub on top of Fenithans could house more than comms) to traingulate whilst working in concert with other flotillas ?
additional- Notice how the centaur/hygeia always jumps in within metres of Alpha one it must need a solid proximity lock after being given battlefield co-ords from command?
well if the tiny little resupply can be that accurate, whos to say the detecton tech doesnt work both ways, scale it up to match larger ships and there you go.
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Ok, well i just had a brain fart, assuming that the GTVA can navigate subspace in the first place, It stands to reason they can detect it [obviously] and if they can detect it whos to say they cant use some sort of installation bound or cap bound *subspace radar* like a toned down awacs (sub on top of Fenithans could house more than comms) to traingulate whilst working in concert with other flotillas ?
additional- Notice how the centaur/hygeia always jumps in within metres of Alpha one it must need a solid proximity lock after being given battlefield co-ords from command?
well if the tiny little resupply can be that accurate, whos to say the detecton tech doesnt work both ways, scale it up to match larger ships and there you go.
Ah, but it's about detecting the location of a ship in subspace, within subspace. Because subspace is non-relativistic it would seem, to me, that the physical location of a ship between entry and exit point isn't necessarily easily predictable. Plus, the support ship jumps in intra-system, which is instantaneous, so it would be able to plot a suitable arrival point given just the players' position from a transponder; there's no detection needed.
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Are you saying detecting a ship "from within" subspace (whilst the detecting ship is in subpace i mean?) If so, this discussion is now hurting my numericaly geared brain, Numbers i can juggle but physics hypothesis............. :eek2:
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Are you saying detecting a ship "from within" subspace (whilst the detecting ship is in subpace i mean?) If so, this discussion is now hurting my numericaly geared brain, Numbers i can juggle but physics hypothesis............. :eek2:
Either/or. It's unclear exactly how subspace tracking came into play; namely whether it allowed an entry 'vector' to put fighters (or, as intended, the Bastion) within the same non-relativistic position upon entry, or if it allowed ships to enter subspace and then move to the location. (the former sounds more likely to me).
The thing about subspace is the n-dimensions, as pointed out. It's like....
imagine you plot a location in xy; that's 2D, but we'll pretend it's realspace for this analogy; so the 2D position is analogous to the realspace location of a ship between systems
..then you have an xyz location; 3D... that means, a ship can still be located in xy, but also along an infinite number of z's.
..and then we have 4D, where we not only have xyz, but also something akin to time; even if you find the xyz position, you have to match timing
..and that's not even close to n-dimensions, which is so complicated the human mind can't really comprehend it*...essentially you're looking at a literal xyz co-ordinate in realspace terms, that can exist in any one of n*n 'slices' of subspace. It's mental.
*but still a concept used. Search engines, for example, map documents on an nth dimensional 'chart', where each word in the document collection has an axis (hence the nth dimensions), each document is mapped to the n co-ordinate position based on the term weightings for each axis, and the relative position on each of those term axes allows the similarity of documents mapped to be compared
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I'm down with xyz = 3d spacial reference. And
i'm a i was a troop map and compass instructor/champion. The closest thing i can think of to this is the example set out in event horizon where he punches a hole through the paper and stargate where the 7 chevrons are a co-ordinate system......... somehow :shaking:
the Event horizon ref is blazingly siimple to understand, but the Nth level addition just makes me think *nope* back to good old terra firma.
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Well, the human mind simply can't cope beyond 3d space plus time, AFAIK. Nth dimension is simply impossible to conceptualize.
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Well, the human mind simply can't cope beyond 3d space plus time, AFAIK. Nth dimension is simply impossible to conceptualize.
eh, in math you run into higher (or even noninteger) dimensional sets everywhere. :p You just can't visualize them.
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Ah, but it's about detecting the location of a ship in subspace, within subspace. Because subspace is non-relativistic it would seem, to me, that the physical location of a ship between entry and exit point isn't necessarily easily predictable. Plus, the support ship jumps in intra-system, which is instantaneous, so it would be able to plot a suitable arrival point given just the players' position from a transponder; there's no detection needed.
Where do you get this from?
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Well, the human mind simply can't cope beyond 3d space plus time, AFAIK. Nth dimension is simply impossible to conceptualize.
eh, in math you run into higher (or even noninteger) dimensional sets everywhere. :p You just can't visualize them.
Um, that's what I meant by conceptualize.
( I already mentioned nspace document comparison, 'member?)
Ah, but it's about detecting the location of a ship in subspace, within subspace. Because subspace is non-relativistic it would seem, to me, that the physical location of a ship between entry and exit point isn't necessarily easily predictable. Plus, the support ship jumps in intra-system, which is instantaneous, so it would be able to plot a suitable arrival point given just the players' position from a transponder; there's no detection needed.
Where do you get this from?
FSRefBible. Ok, sorry, it's nearly instantaneous, but thats more or less the same thing (implies ns type speed).
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In-system jumps probably take an amount of time relative to the size of the ship involved.
That's the only explaination I can make for support ships jumping in immediately but Mission 1 quite clearly stating that the Belisarius has jumped out and is being tracked through space only to have it appear 20-30 seconds later.
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If you wanted to track something in subspace from outside of subspace. It would involve quantum mechanics. Trying to track something you know is there, but also something that is not there. To do an insystem tracking method for example for the quantum mechanics theory...you'd be tracking a ship you know is there(the ship that you know is insystem and you know has jumped and is doing an insystem jump). So you know the ship is there, and in system, but it's outside of normal space. Quantum mechanics...dealing with something that's in two states at the same time, in this case...something that's there(in subspace), and also not there(not in normal space).
Hell, even quantum mechanics works for zombies with the term "undead" :lol: What the hell does undead mean? Is it alive or is it dead, well it's neither as dead as it is alive for the quantumly undead zombie in question :lol:
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Quantum mechanics? Well, the Charybids has tachyons at least, the tech room description:
Ships of the GTA Charybdis class have been packed with the latest tachyon-enabled AWACS equipment from GTVI labs. Each GTVA battle group has a squadron of Charybdis-class ships assigned to it. These ships double the range of the group's standard detection arrays.
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Aren't Tachyons supposed to be completely non reactive? How would a Tachyon sensor work?
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In-system jumps probably take an amount of time relative to the size of the ship involved.
That's the only explaination I can make for support ships jumping in immediately but Mission 1 quite clearly stating that the Belisarius has jumped out and is being tracked through space only to have it appear 20-30 seconds later.
I would say that it probably has to do with distance.
Reinforcements and support ships are waiting close by - they have their jump drives charged, the coordinates ready. So a few seconds for them to arrive sounds logical.
Ships jumping from one end of the system to another would take more time naturally.
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It doesn't exactly take the player long to charge their intrasystem drive, I note........
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Yeah, quantum theory is how you will track a ship in subspace. The ship in subspace is neither there(in system but not in space), and the ship in subspace is also there(in subspace doing an insystem jump).
I mean how else are you supposed to track a ship in pretty much another dimension? But if you wanted to, you could word that different and make it sound actually possible by saying how are you supposed to track a ship in a different layer of space?
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It doesn't exactly take the player long to charge their intrasystem drive, I note........
Well, the player jumps in, spends SEVERL MINUTEs in a mission and then jumps out.
I've yet to say any ship in FS1 or FS2 that jumps in and then immediately jumps out.
the support and reinforcements prolly wait VERY clsoe by (on the order of 1-2 LS) while jumping from one end of athe system frpom another is a FAR greater distance.
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I've yet to say any ship in FS1 or FS2 that jumps in and then immediately jumps out.
Pay more attention to the enemy Hercs in the first mission then. Cancer wing jump out the second the Psamtik arrives regardless of how long they've spent in the mission. I've seen them jump in and then disappear 10 seconds later on several occassions.
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I've seen Nephilims jump in and then INSTANTLY jump out in FS1. Where you must protect the Beta Aquilae Comm Station, they always jump in right as the Hope moves into position (which triggers their departure).
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It doesn't exactly take the player long to charge their intrasystem drive, I note........
Well, the player jumps in, spends SEVERAL MINUTEs in a mission and then jumps out.
I've yet to see any ship in FS1 or FS2 that jumps in and then immediately jumps out.
the support and reinforcements probably wait VERY close by (on the order of 1-2 LS) while jumping from one end of the system from another is a FAR greater distance.
I'm sorry, I don't see your point. What's stopping any ship from being pre-charged in that case? What about the players' ship, y'know, using energy to travel about; does that entail every fighter (and presumably large ship) thus has a charging power reserve unaffected by other energy usage? Does this energy just arise in the drive magically? If it's charging constantly, then why do you have to take your hands off the control (in effect) when you jump out and press a special abort button?
Why are you assuming support ships in particular have their 'co-ordinates' ready, when they arrive a fixed distance from the callee ship (which can be in any location, given that a) they can be called at any time and b) we don't know where support ships are assigned to).
In fact, we don't know if support ships themselves just sit round waiting. Firstly it's pretty stupid to do so - they go down very easily, and they have an increased shockwave so you don't want them sitting too close to friendly ships. Secondly we don't know how many there are and whether there can be one assigned to each 'action' area (because there's never just one fight going on). Oh, and thirdly there's also the issue of replacement support ships that get called in, too.
So, EVEN USING UNNECESSARILY POINTLESS CAPS doesn't really mean there's anything but a piece of hypothetical guesswork in your statement, there; you've assumed a remarkable amount of things; that the players jumpdrive charges unnoticeably in the background, the location of support ships, the number and tactical assignment of support ships, the location of reinforcements.... oh, and try hitting alt-j right at the start of a mission, eh?
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I reckon by the fact theres a cycle up sound when you press ALT+J, it shows that it only takes a few seconds to charge a jump drive of either type. With regards to Capships charging, When the Aquitaine or Pinnacle have to charge their drives, thats only after major core / engine repairs. FS1 + 2 show numerous ships jumping instantly following a Jump oreder from command, And their jump out speed is much higher than the (is it 40 or 60?) required minimum for a fighter or bomber.
^Opinions not counter-arguments^
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I always thought the "charge up sound" was the ship vibrating. If you read FS2's tech room entry on Subspace, it says jump drives operate by vibrating the ship in harmony with subspace.
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I says that in FS1 as well, Oscillation would be a better choice of word if it were up to me, but thats besides the point, If the jump drive is a capacitro fo sorts it would need to charge, if it doesnt store a charge and simply "vibrates the craft in question into subspace via field convergence/generation then surely it would be a matter of warming the drive up til the resonance is achieved?
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We are now tracking the vessel through subspace. We have vectored its course to your immediate vicinity.
It just ran a blockade. So it was observed entering.
I don't see how tracking technology is necessary for following ships in subspace. The subspace tracking technology was only necessary for being able to track ships in subspace from outside of subspace. Remember in the end of fs1, they learned two things, which was how to track ships through subspace, and that the lucifer's shielding didn't work in subspace. Nothing even close to tracking technology is necessary for physically following a ship into subspace.
And nightmare, what a horrible consensus technology you described as necessary for subspace tracking. What's the difference between a larger vessel witnessing a ship going into subspace versus not witnessing it going into subspace.
FighterPilot: sir a ship has jumped out using the knossos...track that ****er.
Command: ok well, since we, the bigger ship didn't witness it, we can't use our heavily advanced technology to track it.
FighterPilot: i witnessed it, it's going to the ****ing nebula beyond the gamma-draconis knossos here
Command: well kudos for you
A bigger ship needing to watch a ship jump out to be able to track is next to bull**** nightmare :lol:
Something rings of being able to use you're own head to figure out where a ship is going versus bogus technology. Why can't subspace tracking be like normal radar tracking? Except that it'd probably make use of quantum mechanics being needed to track a ship outside of normal space(effectively tracking a ship outside of space time and pretty much in a different dimension of space).
You know in fs1, when the taranis was captured, the only shivans present to witness that was the disabled and downed comm. of the taranis. That **** got tracked through subspace by the shivans without witnessing it no problem.
Here's the breakdown. Every single time you have been warned there is an inbound enemy vessel it has just run a blockade and/or was engaged with GTVA forces at the other end of its jump; at all other times they arrived unannounced. (Ships in the nebula did not jump in under most circumstances, but instead used no-warp to create an impression of just entering sensor range; hence the AWACs forewarning is not valid.) We've never been forewarned of an enemy ship's arrival that wasn't watched entering subspace by other GTVA ships. This actually makes a good deal of sense.
Subspace is n-dimensional. We don't know what "n" is, but it's safe to say it's pretty large. (Otherwise you could simply dispatch multiple wings to check each and then send in the strikefore once you know the right one, in Good Luck, thus invalidating the tracking technology.) A ship that jumps at the same place as a previous one will not end up on the same subspatial dimension as the one that jumped before it (otherwise the tracking technology is again rendered moot); so far as we know there is no way to effectively "follow" another ship into subspace without the tracking technology (or possibly their having communicated their drive settings to you). You can enter after them from the same place, exit after them at the same place, but you won't be in the same place in subspace as they are. This randomization effect means one of two things: either we're screwing with things we don't really understand and can't control, or it's an intentional tactic. If we could not control it somehow then Good Luck is an impossiblity; hence it must be intentional.
It's furthermore dimensional; this implies very large barriers, ones impermeable to sensor technology. Our understanding of the subject is limited, but it may well be that once in subspace it's not truly possible to "change course"; no matter which direction you go in subspace you're going to end up at the end of your plotted jump. Once in subspace you are gone. There is no sign of you in normal space. You have to be seen entering your jump corridor; the tracking technology probably has more to do with analyzing the entry signature, vector, and speed, then actually physically tracking the ship.
Shivans subspatial tech > GTVA subspatial tech. That's a given. So, faulty analogy.
I agree with ngtm1r's interpretation, except that vector and speed are irrelevant during a warp-out. Fighters and ships are perfectly capable of warping in any direction, and speed can be anything above a certain level. I think that tracking technology analyses the glimpse of subspace we get when warp-out is activated and the ship disappears into subspace. I don't believe that intra-system jumps are instantaneous; wasn't it stated that long journeys now take only a couple of minutes? Perhaps the jump time is random, to a certain extent. That would explain the time reinforcements, both fighter and capship, take to arrive, but not support ships. I think that tracking incoming unobserved vectors is also possible by reading subspace ripples or something as technobabblish. Perhaps the closer a ship is to the end of its jump, the more obvious its destination? Also, fighters need not see each other during a jump; they need only share their exit coordinates and exit vectors to arrive in formation. The Bastion obviously transmits the information to you before you jump to intercept the Lucifer, and this information is needed to "find" the Lucifer in subspace. This contradicts Derelict, which is of course fanon, because the pirates have no trouble finding you in subspace even though they go into the node way before you and you're not jumping in specifically to intercept them and are therefore probably not on the same wavelength of subspace (so to speak). Interestingly enough, ships only approach nodes from one end and only exit them from the same end. Wouldn't it be tactically smarter to jump out in random directions when you know a node is blockaded? For that matter, why don't we park our ships behind a node and blow them to pieces without fear of retribution from forward-facing and side-facing beam arrays? I'll shut up now.
Also it was a nice thread and I didn't want it to die.
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I agree with ngtm1r's interpretation, except that vector and speed are irrelevant during a warp-out. Fighters and ships are perfectly capable of warping in any direction, and speed can be anything above a certain level. I think that tracking technology analyses the glimpse of subspace we get when warp-out is activated and the ship disappears into subspace. I don't believe that intra-system jumps are instantaneous; wasn't it stated that long journeys now take only a couple of minutes? Perhaps the jump time is random, to a certain extent. That would explain the time reinforcements, both fighter and capship, take to arrive, but not support ships. I think that tracking incoming unobserved vectors is also possible by reading subspace ripples or something as technobabblish. Perhaps the closer a ship is to the end of its jump, the more obvious its destination? Also, fighters need not see each other during a jump; they need only share their exit coordinates and exit vectors to arrive in formation. The Bastion obviously transmits the information to you before you jump to intercept the Lucifer, and this information is needed to "find" the Lucifer in subspace. This contradicts Derelict, which is of course fanon, because the pirates have no trouble finding you in subspace even though they go into the node way before you and you're not jumping in specifically to intercept them and are therefore probably not on the same wavelength of subspace (so to speak). Interestingly enough, ships only approach nodes from one end and only exit them from the same end. Wouldn't it be tactically smarter to jump out in random directions when you know a node is blockaded? For that matter, why don't we park our ships behind a node and blow them to pieces without fear of retribution from forward-facing and side-facing beam arrays? I'll shut up now.
Intra system jumps are near instantaneous;
There are essentially two modes of subspace travel, inter-system and intra-system.
Intra-system subspace travel is nearly instantaneous, and requires relatively little energy input to enable. Most of the GTA’s advanced fighters are equipped with intra-system jump motivators, allowing them to travel at will within a given star system. There is little or no restriction on the beginning and end points of such a subspace “hop,” except that they be in the same star system.
Inter-system travel via subspace is another matter entirely. The end points of inter-system subspace jumps are limited to the naturally-occuring focal points of subspace, also known as “nodes.” These nodes were initially discovered by Prof. J. Whiteside (see McPherson’s Multipaedia (2557 ed.), pp 1132-1140). Only between two subspace nodes is the fabric of subspace strong enough to support inter-system travel. The defense of the physical locations surrounding such nodes proved to be a central part of the 14-year Terran-Vasudan War.
It's not clear how fast inter-system is; the fail debrief for the 2nd last mission in FS1 describes the Lucifer as reaching Earth around 40 hours after entering Delta Serpentic - it's not clear how much of this time, natch, is transit time to the node.
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You're given about ten minutes to vape the Lucifer once you enter the node... and another ten minutes to get to the node in the first place in the previous mission. This leads me to believe that inter-system jumps take somewhere around twenty minutes to complete, varying perhaps on the distance between stars.
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You're given about ten minutes to vape the Lucifer once you enter the node... and another ten minutes to get to the node in the first place in the previous mission. This leads me to believe that inter-system jumps take somewhere around twenty minutes to complete, varying perhaps on the distance between stars.
Subspace is non-relativistic; it's possible time passes differently inside compared to the outside, as well as travel distance being altered.